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LeftishBrit

(41,219 posts)
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 09:32 AM Apr 2014

Stop forcing veg down our throats: Despite the failure of the five-a-day message, policymakers are

determined to pursue an individual remedy for a collective ill



....Scientific advice as divided as this in, say, a paper about climate change, would be considered too diffuse to take seriously. But in the realm of individual behaviour, nothing is too flimsy or too disputed, nothing too unreasonable or too expensive, no goal too unlikely to espouse. The difference between what is considered reasonable as a collective responsibility – almost nothing – and what is considered reasonable as an individual responsibility – almost anything – is laughable. Over a week, 560g of vegetables a day (I'm going with the anti-fruit lobby, who make the most sense) amounts to about 4kg. You're eating on a budget, you say? You're choosing between heating and eating? You're skipping meals so your children can eat? You're going to a foodbank? Not to worry; haven't you seen those plastic bowls outside the newsagents? You can get three green peppers for a quid!...

...At the start of the year, a report from the Overseas Development Institute cited the Change 4 Life campaign specifically (which advises five a day) as an example of a public health message that had no discernible effect. An unhealthy diet is about more than poverty and time poverty; to counter these "healthy" messages with financial realities is, in a way, to play into the hands of the narrative beneath it all – you say, "it's hard to make this specific healthy choice when you have no money," and an Anne Milton or Norman Tebbitty smirk will come back: "Well, obviously … if they made good choices, they wouldn't be poor." April's The Psychologist (the British Psychological Society's magazine) is a special austerity issue, looking at the impact of the cuts across a range of situations, from academia to mental health to the council estate, so this is the running theme.

It is easier to conceptualise the world as a fair place, in which individuals get their just deserts, than to accept that there are systemic problems, games rigged in which some win big and others will never win. In boom times, this individualism is visible in a febrile therapy culture, in which, Manhattan-style, everyone is involved in a talking cure. In a bust, as the Midlands Psychology Group points out, "The quasi-religious belief in the power of the individual to overcome their own problems, embedded deeply in Anglo-American culture, and within much of psychotherapy itself, has long been used by the powerful as a justification for disciplining the poor."

So, what, if not a mere knowledge deficit and discipline failure among the poor, does cause obesity? The anthropologist Elizabeth Throop points to a culture in deep conflict – idealising thinness on one hand while characterising anorexia as the result of "low self-esteem"; depicting, in films, diets that will definitely make you fat (or "obesogenic behaviours&quot while the characters eating them simultaneously deride obesity and are, themselves, very thin. An obesity systems influence diagram depicts the interplay between social psychology, individual psychology, physiology, food consumption, food production and the activity environment; it's too dense to summarise. Some of it I don't even believe (suspecting strongly that it came from self-reported calorie intake). And yet we're mad to fixate on the losers in this obesogenic world. We should be fascinated by the people who create it, protect its methods; the handful who win from the processes that create obesity. What makes them tick? Why can't a manufacturer make a pro-social decision every once in a while? Why is processed food so bad for us? Who gains from that?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/02/forcing-veg-throat-five-a-day


NB: I rarely post OPs in GD; and am not doing so now because of any dislike of veg(!), but because it's summarizing one of things that I hate most in post-Thatcher/Reagan society: this 'quasi-religious belief in the power of the individual to overcome their own problems.... used by the powerful as a justification for disciplining the poor' (and the ill, and the bullied, and all seen as 'unsuccessful')

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Stop forcing veg down our throats: Despite the failure of the five-a-day message, policymakers are (Original Post) LeftishBrit Apr 2014 OP
Thank you! get the red out Apr 2014 #1
Describes most of our government to a tee - djean111 Apr 2014 #2
I disagree; there's a large part of the population for whom dietary choices are possible muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #3
No - I do think that the writer is combining two things that don't entirely go together. LeftishBrit Apr 2014 #4
The Guardian commentary seems very poor to me muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #5
No - I'm not asking anyone to suppress findings! I'm an academic researcher myself, in a different LeftishBrit Apr 2014 #6
Thought-provoking take on the issue BainsBane Apr 2014 #7

get the red out

(13,468 posts)
1. Thank you!
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 09:43 AM
Apr 2014

The power of the individual to overcome their own problems is made even more difficult by the feet of so many greedy jackasses on his throat! That's what we are being offered.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
2. Describes most of our government to a tee -
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 09:45 AM
Apr 2014
"this 'quasi-religious belief in the power of the individual to overcome their own problems.... used by the powerful as a justification for disciplining the poor' (and the ill, and the bullied, and all seen as 'unsuccessful')"

except the 'quasi-religious belief" is really calculated greed and servility to corporate sponsors.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,407 posts)
3. I disagree; there's a large part of the population for whom dietary choices are possible
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 11:35 AM
Apr 2014

and this is not "used by the powerful as a justification for disciplining the poor"; it's advice on preventative health measures. If you think this shouldn't be up to individuals, what are you suggesting - that the state should be putting us all on preventative drugs to counteract our bad diets? Or that we should wait for the heart attacks, cancers and strokes before we treat them?

LeftishBrit

(41,219 posts)
4. No - I do think that the writer is combining two things that don't entirely go together.
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 01:45 PM
Apr 2014

I don't think that the advice about diet is in itself 'punishing the poor'; and I think the title is emphasizing the wrong aspects - unfortunately it's the title that was used in the article. The article itself is a bit muddled, and is bringing things together that don't belong together. Government advice about health is not the same thing as taking a harsh attitude to the 'undeserving' and should not be equated with it. All governments have given advice about health; even if it tends to change over time. That is not sinister in itself.

So why did I quote the article here?


Well, because I think that Duncan-Smith and the like ARE treating poverty, illness, etc. as sins to be punished; and caused by individuals' lack of moral fibre; and this article, with all its flaws, is one of the few that is bringing this up as a problem!


'If you think this shouldn't be up to individuals, what are you suggesting - that the state should be putting us all on preventative drugs to counteract our bad diets?'


Of course not. That would have plenty of dangers of its own - and would be very coercive in itself, apart from the costs.

I'm all in favour of preventive health advice, in fact! But this cannot compensate for the harm to health that is caused by poverty and by the harshness of right-wing government policy.

What I do suggest is:

Don't sell off or even semi-privatize the NHS

Don't treat unemployed or low-paid people as scroungers

Don't treat disabled people as though they are scroungers until proved otherwise (thank goodness the ATOS contract's being terminated, but I fear that something just as bad will replace it).

Don't treat poverty and illness as moral failings.


When I support comments about concerns about health habits being used to 'discipline the poor' (and anyone who is ill or disabled and not rich enough to 'go private' comfortably), it is because of such things as the following:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100146838/why-should-fat-people-take-precedence-over-the-elderly-in-the-nhs/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/11/make-people-with-lifestyle-related-illnesses-pay-for-their-drugs-says-tory-mp/


Until the recent government's 'election' and NHS 'reforms', such attitudes as the above would have NOT been respectable to express, but increasingly, they are becoming so.









muriel_volestrangler

(101,407 posts)
5. The Guardian commentary seems very poor to me
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 03:01 PM
Apr 2014

The news has, after all, not been a statement from the government; it was a study from UCL. In The Guardian report about it, I can't find a single 'policymaker'. When it comes down to it, Zoe Williams wants to 'discipline the poor' more, by attacking food that they may actually like - convenience foods. She wants "a manufacturer (to) make a pro-social decision every once in a while" - which seems to mean changing the food that people are currently happily buying. The problem with people who are too poor to afford healthy food isn't that manufacturers produce cheap food that happens to be unhealthy; it's that they're too poor. But the health message goes to a far wider audience than the poor, and Williams seems to think everyone who is overweight (and this is ignoring that the study was about heart disease, strokes and cancer, none of which Williams even mentions) is either poor or forced into it through sociological pressures.

What Odone and Tory Phillip Lee say isn't really connected to academic recommendations about diet. We can't ask them to suppress their findings just in case some idiot Tory says "see, people can eat more healthily". I'd sum up Williams' piece with her own last sentence: "It's a level beyond Einstein's definition of stupidity, a modern giga-stupid."

LeftishBrit

(41,219 posts)
6. No - I'm not asking anyone to suppress findings! I'm an academic researcher myself, in a different
Wed Apr 2, 2014, 03:21 PM
Apr 2014

area which can occasionally have implications for policy. I am aware of how politicians and the media can distort and simplify findings, and it is NOT the responsibility of researchers to suppress research to prevent that.

If I had found a better article criticizing the attitudes of the Tories to poverty and ill-health, I would have posted that. I don't think the article is great; nor do I think there's anything wrong with the health recommendations made by academics (except that they change frequently; and that most people, rich or poor, take rather little notice of them).

It is just that I have been utterly devastated over the last few years by the harsh attitude that governments and much of the media take to poverty and disability - either it doesn't exist and people are faking, or it's all their fault for making the wrong choices - and at the inadequacy of protest against it, so far. And I do think that the idea that the individual 'controls their destiny' and what is sometimes called the 'just world hypothesis' are contributing to this.

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