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TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:19 AM Apr 2014

The Death of the English Degree, Brought on by Critical Analysis

In recent years, numerous publications and broadcasts highlight that an English Language & Literature degree could be a poor educational choice in the current marketplace.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/fgek45hg/no-10-english-language-and-literature/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/opinion/sunday/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-english-major.html?_r=0

http://business.time.com/2013/10/02/foroohar-forget-unemployment-time-to-worry-about-mal-employment/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/01/10/the-college-degrees-with-the-highest-starting-salaries-2/

http://www.today.com/money/job-after-graduation-major-these-not-those-6C10112004


At New Jersey’s State Universities, and most other major colleges and universities, there seems to be a recent misguided approach that concentrates their undergraduate degree towards critical thinking. Critical thought and analysis are important skills for everyone to possess, but an entire undergraduate program should not stress critical analysis as a primary objective. These schools will offer one or two creative writing courses to compliment their sanitized critical analysis curriculum, but in order to delve into creative thought, one must pursue a master’s degree.

When discussing this topic with English majors, I have found that many are unhappy with their school’s emphasis on critical analysis as opposed to creative thought. Classes will require several critical analysis essays on topics such as how wealth might have an influence on one of Shakespeare’s plays, but that will only expose critical thought to a small subset of that one individual work. None of the students I have spoken with can write plays, write prose, or write poems nor can they rewrite the aforementioned. However, they can provide critical analysis on any part of a work that you desire.

This type of education yields graduates who are void of creative and dynamic thought. Three-dimensional thought is replaced by antiseptic analysis. The skills required to write creative works are missing, relegating the students to non-English employment or careers such as copy editors or technical writers. Instead of writing about the influence of privilege in Shakespeare’s “Twelfth Night,” students should be asked to submit a rewrite of a section of that work to make it better. Have the students write a better ending, one that does not appear to be as rushed as the original work while retaining the same look and feel of Shakespeare. Have the students alter the climax, extend the denouement, add more back story to the characters—something that adds a skill related to English! Instead, they are given critical analysis busy work, reinforcing a skill learned early in the sophomore year and required by other elective courses. It is just that…busy work and nothing more!

This mode of thought forces the students to obtain a master’s degree in order to learn creative writing skills, skills that they are woefully deficient in demonstrating. When they enter the master’s program, they have poorly developed creational foundations. Many students will become damaged goods in the literary world since their creative juices were dried up on analytical thought. Others will become disillusioned with a career in English and move on to other majors or concentrate on finding a job to survive. Once critical thought becomes infused in one’s writing skills, their creative abilities change. Although a critical reader can appreciate and analyze a fine piece of literary work, their ability to think abstractly and creatively diminishes to the point where they cannot readily produce such work. This is akin to a painter (fine arts) versus that of an art critic (art history). Meanwhile, most of these students will need to provide some kind of income to carry them through their graduate studies. Unfortunately, the majority will find careers outside of English, working in a field that does not reinforce their collegiate talents or goals. They will not be able to submit creative works to media, self-publish creative works, or provide support for others as an intern because they will lack the creative skills to do so.

It appears as though the academia that runs the English departments at many universities lose grasp of this issue. Having spent many years learning to submit journals for peer-review, they push that same structure as a requirement for their curriculum. Most students do not want to pursue a career in professorship, most want to develop their internal gifts and talents that they feel they possess and produce creative works in the very same manner the literary greats they study have. Most English students have dreams, dreams that get suffocated by the reality that they lack the skills to achieve them. If English needs to thrive, there needs to be diversity of thought. This thought diversity is what the majority of media groups look for in prospective job candidates, the ability to bring divergent talent to the workforce, not a common cookie cutter analytical thinker.

If the English departments need to stress critical thinking, they need to provide two learning tracks to the student body. One that emphasizes critical thought for careers in technical and educational trades, and one in creative thought to develop the next generation of literary greats. They could also blend the two and have their courses stress a critical analysis paper while also requiring the submission of original creativity projects. Anyone who calls him or herself a Christian or is interested in American history should perform a critical analysis of John Winthrop’s “A Model of Christian Charity” and those who are English majors should submit an interpretative rewrite of such work. English Departments of various universities and colleges need to rethink their objectives, to ones that will better the students. The modern shift from creativity to analysis needs to find balance, especially if the needs of the undergraduate and graduate body are important to the university.


Note: If one were to pursue a career in academia, critical analysis is imperative. Unfortunately, those careers require a minimum of a master’s degree (ideally a Doctorate degree) and are extremely limited in their openings and are quite competitive.


45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Death of the English Degree, Brought on by Critical Analysis (Original Post) TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 OP
Proud holder of an English degree here... GreenEyedLefty Apr 2014 #1
+1000 Tom Ripley Apr 2014 #16
Yes, "corporatizing" does seem to be a factor. nt TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #28
+1... Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #37
"What are you going to do with that?" deutsey Apr 2014 #43
Bravo!!!! Well said!!! BIG K&R!! riderinthestorm Apr 2014 #2
That's a function of the AP curriculum, though. knitter4democracy Apr 2014 #32
That same mindset permeates the N.J. Collegiate English Departments. TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #35
I disagree. knitter4democracy Apr 2014 #42
R#1 & K for, I are an English (lit) major, & when *was* it not a poor choice for the marketplace?!1 UTUSN Apr 2014 #3
If you want a useful resource for grammar and usage, you could visit tblue37 Apr 2014 #7
Thanks. I "get" lie/lay and those basics. I wanted (back then) to be grammatically worthy of UTUSN Apr 2014 #10
I have a Masters in English. MineralMan Apr 2014 #4
Actual writing of poetry and plays would be in the Fine Arts FarCenter Apr 2014 #5
True. MineralMan Apr 2014 #6
Real and useful writing can be taught directly, without an English Departments many detours FarCenter Apr 2014 #8
During my graduate studies, MineralMan Apr 2014 #15
IIRC, the only time freshmen saw an English professor was a once a week lecture in the auditorium FarCenter Apr 2014 #29
With the exception of playwriting and music, most BFA & MFA limit Creative Writing skills. TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #11
I'm of the opinion that writers and other artists don't have LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #9
College provides an environment where artists/writers can interact with one another KittyWampus Apr 2014 #20
Got my degree in literature. Igel Apr 2014 #12
One of my goals, as a continuing education student, is to obtain your skill level or higher. TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #18
You make some good points rjsquirrel Apr 2014 #13
Thanks. TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #17
What misspellings do you find? uppityperson Apr 2014 #19
Great post TransitJohn Apr 2014 #14
Thanks John. TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #22
Great post! I'm not an English major and I think it shows. :) However... Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2014 #21
Most University English Departments MineralMan Apr 2014 #23
Yes, I read the OP and that's what it said, but that's why I asked the why of it. Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2014 #24
The publication they require is academic publication. MineralMan Apr 2014 #25
Bingo! I couldn't have written it better. nt TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #27
As an English novice, a continuing ed student, I'll give it a shot... TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #26
Thank you. Very interesting explanation of how English departments tend to go nowadays Sarah Ibarruri Apr 2014 #30
What an excellent post. idendoit Apr 2014 #31
A few thoughts from this high school English teacher: knitter4democracy Apr 2014 #33
A few retorts: TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #34
My replies to your retorts. ;) knitter4democracy Apr 2014 #41
I was a literature major, but this is an example of why I chose a creative writing emphasis. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #36
Um, an English Literature degree is not the same thing as a creative writing degree. 6000eliot Apr 2014 #38
Many people who obtain English degrees are not doing so to get some crappy job. bemildred Apr 2014 #39
Media & Communication also rank in the bottom tier of paying professions. nt TheBlackAdder Apr 2014 #40
Right, but you can get a job. nt bemildred Apr 2014 #44
They're at least partly right... Orsino Apr 2014 #45

GreenEyedLefty

(2,073 posts)
1. Proud holder of an English degree here...
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:46 AM
Apr 2014

The necessity of seeking extra coursework or a master's degree speaks to the "corporatizing" of higher education. It doesn't seem to be about education for education's sake, so much as the almighty dollar.

At my university (University of Michigan-Dearborn), it was not only about critical thinking and analysis, but understanding the works in terms of their social and historical context. I took creative writing, screenwriting and film courses as electives. I believe I received an excellent education and never felt shortchanged in any way. My only regret was not taking one or two courses in linguistics...however, I can always return to UM-D and audit those classes if I wish.

With all that said, I withstand a lot of sarcastic and condescending remarks regarding my degree. It gets tiresome having to defend a non-STEM education.

Sigh...

 

Tom Ripley

(4,945 posts)
16. +1000
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:52 PM
Apr 2014

The necessity of seeking extra coursework or a master's degree speaks to the "corporatizing" of higher education. It doesn't seem to be about education for education's sake, so much as the almighty dollar.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
37. +1...
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:58 PM
Apr 2014

"The preferred major of lesbos, feminists, and fast food cashiers..."

If only I had a penny for every time I heard that during a get-together with friends...(I always heard it most often from engineering majors, for whatever reason)...

"Oh yeah, I forgot to ask -- Just what *ARE* you majoring in, Blue_tires?"

"I'm uh, you know, between majors right now or something...."

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
43. "What are you going to do with that?"
Mon Apr 7, 2014, 10:58 AM
Apr 2014

That was the common refrain I heard over and over again whenever I said I was majoring in English back in the '80s.

I grew so tired of trying justify being an English major that I switched to journalism for a while. I was good at it and even secured a summer internship writing for a newspaper, but I found it kind of boring and formulaic in general. I was also (and remain) an introvert, so it was a real challenge for me to play Ace Newshound sniffing out the facts for a story through interviews.

After my internship (which had me covering the city council, a special council election, as well as the usual obits/fire/accidents stuff), I decided English was my one true love and switched back.

No regrets. Although I'm not on faculty anywhere (which is no big loss for me, from what I've seen of academia today), I have established myself as an independent scholar in Twain studies and have published a book (non-Twain related) that has sold moderately well.

On a "practical" level, I also find my interpretive skills (of the written word, film/TV, people and situations around me) often allow me to see a bigger picture or deeper level than a lot of people I know.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
2. Bravo!!!! Well said!!! BIG K&R!!
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:47 AM
Apr 2014

My daughter's taking two AP English classes, these are full year classes for seniors in high school. The entire year's curriculum includes maybe 6 - 7 "creative" writing assignments alongside several hundred critical analysis assignments.

My daughter likes to write poetry. Has done so since she was able to start reading.

She hasn't written a single poem since last August when she started these classes and now she HATES English.

knitter4democracy

(14,350 posts)
32. That's a function of the AP curriculum, though.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 10:31 PM
Apr 2014

I took AP English, and I have taught AP Lit/Comp. The emphasis on preparing the students for a vicious test, one that tests critical analysis and essay writing skills only, means that we cannot fit in the creative parts like I wish we could.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
35. That same mindset permeates the N.J. Collegiate English Departments.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:31 PM
Apr 2014

Concentration is only placed on critical analysis. Creativity is forsaken at the undergraduate level.

knitter4democracy

(14,350 posts)
42. I disagree.
Mon Apr 7, 2014, 09:25 AM
Apr 2014

Just because students choose not to be creative doesn't mean that the professors don't want creative answers. In my experience, most students stick to the safe route even when profs beg them to think outside the box on an assignment. I often run into similar problems with my AP/Honors kids.

UTUSN

(70,691 posts)
3. R#1 & K for, I are an English (lit) major, & when *was* it not a poor choice for the marketplace?!1
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:48 AM
Apr 2014

So now the divide is creative vs analytical? Back then for me it was prescriptive vs descriptive grammar. I had eagerly signed up for an advanced Grammar course, thinking I would get myself a rock solid foundation for all else, only to find out that "prescriptive" grammar was all so previous century, that it was all about being "descriptive" about how language actually is being used in the day, with searches for the "deep structure or meaning" of strings of words. So then there I was with two degrees in English and having to look up what "dative" means. I guess I might have studied up on my own, so why go to college. Now: Thank Zeus for Google!1

It's almost like the Cheech joke about language: "Mexican Americans, we've come a long way. We go to college now. And major in Spanish. And get B(s)."

Then again, it was the '70s, when the Educational theory was that the "old" schooling was rote stuff about the pyramids, that it was supposed to be about here-and-now and self-esteem or something. So what new stuff have I actually learned in the past couple of decades --- how amazing the pyramids and Romans and all them things are. (I'm using my Descriptive Grammar here.)



tblue37

(65,343 posts)
7. If you want a useful resource for grammar and usage, you could visit
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:20 PM
Apr 2014

my Grammar and Usage for the Non-Expert site.
http://grammartips.homestead.com/index.html

I target specific grammar and usage issues that trouble a lot of people, even those who are actually good writers and quite knowledgeable about *most* grammar and usage questions. I don't obfuscate by slinging around a lot of technical terminology, and when I do have to get a bit technical in order to explain something, I explain the technical stuff in a way that anyone can understand, even if he or she has no memory of K-12 grammar lessons.

Try my explanation of the difference between "lie"and "lay," which also includes a bit of explanation about why so many people confuse those verbs.
http://grammartips.homestead.com/lie.html

I have also been told by *many* readers (including some with advanced degrees in English) that my explanation of when to use the subjunctive mood is the clearest they have ever found.
http://grammartips.homestead.com/subjunctive.html

WARNING: There is a WhiteSmoke tower ad on many of my pages that I have been told registers as malware because of tracking cookies, so if you get a malware warning, don't worry--it is just that one ad. I have been removing that ad bit by bit, but I am super busy during the school year, and I have many hundreds of pages, so the going is slow. As long as you don't click that ad, there is no problem. (Pages that I have removed the WhiteSmoke ads from no longer warn of malware, so I know that ad is the culprit.)

UTUSN

(70,691 posts)
10. Thanks. I "get" lie/lay and those basics. I wanted (back then) to be grammatically worthy of
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:34 PM
Apr 2014

English scholarship and felt that college had left me behind. Now I know that fads in "Education" are as faddish as in any other field.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
4. I have a Masters in English.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:03 PM
Apr 2014

That, along with a lot of thinking and hard work, has enabled me to plot out and enjoy a very interesting life. As a commercially viable degree, it is relatively worthless. As a means of developing and understanding language skills and critical thinking, it has been very, very useful to me.

That said, I have been self-employed since 1974. If self-employment is one's goal, taking a degree in any of the humanities is a good start. English is fine in that regard.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
5. Actual writing of poetry and plays would be in the Fine Arts
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:06 PM
Apr 2014

Writing of creative prose should also be there -- not in the Liberal Arts.

Writing of things like legal documents and contracts, instructions, reports, scientific papers, etc. is probably best taught by the relevant faculties.

So, yes, that leaves critical analysis in the English faculty.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
6. True.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:12 PM
Apr 2014

Nothing stifles a creative writing career than an English Department.

Still, the critical analysis business is very useful in many different careers, as I discovered.

I've seen my poetry and fiction be published by legitimate outlets. But, I couldn't find a way to make a living with that. So, I switched to writing about real, useful topics, and found a great niche for myself.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
8. Real and useful writing can be taught directly, without an English Departments many detours
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:24 PM
Apr 2014

Freshman English was essentially useless, but the required course in technical writing has been of great value. This course description looks much more useful than the freshman English that I recall.

The primary purpose of first-year writing at the University of Minnesota is to provide incoming students with the fundamental skills and knowledge about writing demanded in university study. Students write in academic genres such as essays, summaries, and research papers and learn the appropriate conventions and styles that make those forms convincing. In a workshop environment, students practice and study writing as a recursive process of critical thinking, analytical reading, and significant research, all leading to graceful written communication. Drawing on students' diverse skills, backgrounds, and experiences, instructors lead students to discern and participate in important public and university-level conversations. First-year writing offers students a foundation for development and refinement of their writing abilities throughout their college career and beyond.


http://writingstudies.umn.edu/firstyear/

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
15. During my graduate studies,
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:51 PM
Apr 2014

I taught some of those freshman English classes. I found them fascinating, since they generally contained lots of people from other majors. Most of the regular staff found any way they could to avoid teaching such classes, which is why this Master's candidate found himself standing in front of a room full of 18 and 19-year-olds.

It was an education in itself, really. Finding ways to help those students learn to write clearly and concisely and why they needed to learn to create logical and useful prose taught me a great deal about my own processes.

I enjoyed it a lot.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
29. IIRC, the only time freshmen saw an English professor was a once a week lecture in the auditorium
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 04:22 PM
Apr 2014

You had your choice of attending one of two given each week. So you were with half the freshman class of roughly 6000.

The four daily sections each week were all taught by graduate students.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
11. With the exception of playwriting and music, most BFA & MFA limit Creative Writing skills.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:37 PM
Apr 2014

Playwriting is classified as a BFA course, even though plays are interpreted by BA English programs.

Lyrics are another cross-department skill where BFA students are exposed, but the foundation for them are in BA English.


I wasn't saying that a person who is in a BA English program should master playwriting, having taken a BFA Play Analysis course myself, I believe they should be exposed to some of the skills of playwriting while they are being exposed to the works. The same goes for poetry, and prose works which can be seen as a BFA subject even though they are covered in BA English. BA English includes Creative Writing courses and the next path is to jump from a BA English to an MFA English workshop program. In doing so, the BA English students are at a disadvantage, since they do not have the foundation. The BFA students are at a disadvantage because many of the subjects in the MFA are supposedly covered in the BA English program.


There is a hole in the educational coverage between BFA and BA English programs, only filled when the student goes for an MFA.

The main point I was making is that, while critical analysis is important for a BA English program, it should not be so myopic.

Back in the 1970's and early 1980's, BA English covered these. Now, almost not at all.

LuvNewcastle

(16,846 posts)
9. I'm of the opinion that writers and other artists don't have
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:31 PM
Apr 2014

much to learn in college these days. Writers can read other authors without going to school and painters can study works of other painters by going to museums. Humanities courses seem to stifle creativity rather than foster it. If you want to write, I'd say the best thing to do is to write want you want, not write what a professor requires for his course. It's a waste of time. You can follow all the rules that English dictates and still be a shitty writer.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
20. College provides an environment where artists/writers can interact with one another
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:14 PM
Apr 2014

IMO, one of the most valuable parts of going to college is the access to so many other communities it offers. Access in a liberal setting that fosters curiously and learning.

Igel

(35,307 posts)
12. Got my degree in literature.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:39 PM
Apr 2014

Not English. When I got my degree the field was changing. You could have a wide variety of approaches when I started my MA. But already at some schools there were approved approaches to critical analysis and all others need not apply. You'd get through the basics of close reading and inferencing, of how to assemble an argument and critical thinking. Then a lot of doors were closed, paneled over, and wallpapered over--long forgotten and inaccessible. The licit approaches are really fairly self-centered. And all too often the analysis exists as a kind of Platonic ideal just waiting for some content to be centered on--the conclusions are the same, you just have to find the evidence to show that you're right. (Sort of the opposite of trying to falsify your hypothesis.)

Most of the approved approaches are useless for the business world. Your boss doesn't want you to undermine internal literature or have fancy, esoteric campaigns that target 1% of the community. You have an audience. Talk to it on their terms. (This is, to a large extent, what rendered "belles lettres" elitist, and made "fine arts music" alien to a wider audience. "I write for myself ... if others eavesdrop, I can't be bothered.&quot


Once you get past the basics--up through critical thinking--there has to be a variety of options. Some might be creative writing, where if you write and have no audience you made the choice to have no income and be self-unemployed. But it should also focus on for-profit writing, where the writer is also a businessman and needs to bring in money for room and board. Another would be technical and informational writing. How to produce a good, crisp, clean narrative. How to present information in a way friendly to a specific audience or to a range of audiences. And how to sculpt your prose (etc.) for specific media--Twitter campaigns, Web pages, voice media, tv, etc.

High-school English is making baby-steps in this now. "Okay, you read The Great Gatsby. Discuss ______. Your audience is ...." a group of English teachers. Or perhaps "your parents." Or "your 6-year-old sister." "A group of students about to start reading the novel." "A group of inmates in prison." "A group of inner-city youth more interested in their gang than some dead white guy's take on the socio-cultural milieu from 85 years ago." "A group of bored suburban women at a library reading circle." "A group of teen girls." Yeah, there's stereotyping--but the goal isn't the stereotype, but linguistic and perspective flexibility on the part of the writer and speaker.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
18. One of my goals, as a continuing education student, is to obtain your skill level or higher.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:08 PM
Apr 2014

My program is English, not as specific as English Literature.

If I can achieve your level, I'll be happy.

 

rjsquirrel

(4,762 posts)
13. You make some good points
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:46 PM
Apr 2014

But I am obligated to note that your post is riddled with misspellings and poor usage, and you make your key argument redundantly and without much structure.

Critical thinking is not really a separate skill from good writing.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
17. Thanks.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:00 PM
Apr 2014

I hope that the 10 minutes spent writing and submitting this first draft does not equate to the time you spent constructing its criticism.

For a critical reply, no supportive evidence was provided.

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
14. Great post
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 12:47 PM
Apr 2014

I don't have much to add, but I just wanted to sincerely thank you for adding quality content to DU, something that used to be the norm. I appreciate the time you took to write that, and it was an enjoyable read for me.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
22. Thanks John.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:22 PM
Apr 2014

I won't delve into the deficiencies of the NJ State school's Information Technology programs and how they do a disservice to their students.

Let's just say they are almost as bad as the For-Profit schools.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
21. Great post! I'm not an English major and I think it shows. :) However...
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:20 PM
Apr 2014

I'm quoting part of your post below. When did all this happen?:

many are unhappy with their school’s emphasis on critical analysis as opposed to creative thought. Classes will require several critical analysis essays on topics such as how wealth might have an influence on one of Shakespeare’s plays, but that will only expose critical thought to a small subset of that one individual work. None of the students I have spoken to can write plays, write prose, or write poems nor can they rewrite the aforementioned. However, they can provide critical analysis on any part of a work that you desire.

I had no idea that English classes did more than teach proper writing, literature, grammar, and creativity within those.

Seems to me that critical analysis would belong more in Journalism? God knows journalists need to learn how to be critical, rather than mere sheep as they are today.

In any case, another question. I wonder what you think about the fact that nowadays it seems like everyone, even the cat, is writing or publishing a book. Everyone thinks their story is wonderful, or thinks they have great ideas, or thinks they can write wonderfully, and I am so tempted to say, "Uh, not exactly!" This explosion of "authors," some of whose books are dull as a box of rocks, and completely uninteresting, is overwhelming. Reminds me a bit of when people began desperately trying to call attention to themselves by wearing a t-shirt with a message about themselves, in a hopeless effort to be loved or something - kind of a "me! me! me!"

In any case, those are the 2 questions I have. Thanks!

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
23. Most University English Departments
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:28 PM
Apr 2014

are about training up more university English department folks. The emphasis isn't usually on actual writing, but on analysis of the writing of others. The professors teach academic subjects. It's a flaw that is self-perpetuating. I considered an academic career, but took a closer look at what that career would really entail. I decided to move into other areas, instead.

I did, however, learn how to write academic analyses of literature very well. That was rewarded at my University. I even had a couple of interesting papers published as an undergraduate student in minor journals. But, it was all very incestuous, really. In the end, it was unsatisfactory for me, so I went off on my own, to my later gratification.

Universities teach academics. It's a real problem.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
24. Yes, I read the OP and that's what it said, but that's why I asked the why of it.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:43 PM
Apr 2014

I mean, English departments require authors to get published. It's not as if *everyone* is being trained to be an editor or movie reviewer, right? They're required to publish too and universities that have authors teaching are super proud of that.

Anywho, I still am back to square one and don't get it.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
25. The publication they require is academic publication.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 01:49 PM
Apr 2014

In fact, publishing a novel is a good way to not get tenure in most University English departments. It is academic journal publication that is rewarded, as it is in most disciplines. Authors are often brought in to be "Artists in Residence," but they do not make up the bulk of the English faculty. They are there for promotional reasons primarily.

Sadly, it's an isolated, almost irrelevant academic community that is more intellectually incestuous in nature than most people realize. Why that is is probably due to the nature of the people who are on the faculty. They are academics themselves, rather than poets and fiction writers. So, they prefer that sort of writing, generally. In many cases, faculty members have attempted novels and poetry, but with poor results. I knew a bunch of those in the department.

It's sad, really. To succeed, professors are expected to write journal articles that "break new ground." The problem is that the ground has been so thoroughly plowed by now that there's little room left for new cultivation.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
26. As an English novice, a continuing ed student, I'll give it a shot...
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 02:01 PM
Apr 2014

Apparently, the current set of undergraduate English degrees don’t do more than that. In fact, while they teach creativity, they do not allow one to apply creativity. They are producing graduates who have no applied skills beyond the critical writings of authored works. Sure, the student is exposed to varied thoughts and concepts, but they cannot participate in those and engage further with them. They are prevented from placing themselves in the author’s works or by creating unique works of their own. Imagine being an English student and having to write 6-7 critical analysis papers each month—nothing else, just CMA papers. That is not the English program my twin sisters took back in the 1970’s, and I am in the same school and in the same program.

As with any major, there are generalities and specializations. Instead of opting for a specialty in English Literature or the like, I chose a Standard English track to hopefully broaden my exposure to writing, composition, and thought. As I move forward, I see that you cannot be a good writer without a solid background in literary history. So much is learned about the human condition and human nature that one would be challenged to write a good composition without it. A writer needs to know how to attract their readers, how to write a believable storyline, how to hold their reader’s attention, how to end their work without leaving loose ends while satisfying the reader’s demands to want more.

One of the core requirements for a BA in English is a Critical Methods of Analysis course. Little did I know (reminds me of the movie ‘Stranger than Fiction’) that Critical Methods would be the basis for an entire English program. Nothing reinforces any further composition skills once you complete the CMA course. It is just one critical analysis paper after another, regardless of what you cover. Critical analysis is important, but once you learn it and have it reinforced after writing a dozen papers in English and elective courses, you kind of have that skill set down. It is time to grow and develop beyond CMA. Perhaps the professors like it because they do not have to work to grade the results, but you would think that would become boring for them as well.

As far as self-publishing, I am all for that. In the past, you would write a novel and it might get reviewed or it might not. Some intern decides whether you get your novel published. Get the book, “The First Five Pages,” and you will see how many great contemporary authors almost never were. Nowadays, a writer can self-publish for around $1,000 and that includes the ISBN numbers, the electronic books, and a submission for the pressing of on-demand hardcover/softcover books. Of course, if you require art work or specialty paper, those costs will start to go up a bit. Sure there’s a bit of ‘me’ in everyone and it is expressed in different ways. Luckily, I am not part of the instant gratification era that my kids are in, even refusing to have a Facebook and Twitter account, but I do have a voice, a set of concepts, and the will to try and get them out. It’s personal for me. I have stories, and if no one reads them, that is fine. I just want to vent after working behind a desk all day.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
30. Thank you. Very interesting explanation of how English departments tend to go nowadays
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 04:58 PM
Apr 2014

I suppose it's harder to "grade" creative writing work while being fair. I mean, I wouldn't even know where to begin if I were analyzing people's creative writing. Everyone has genres and styles of writing they prefer. There are types of writing I love, and types that bore me, which have been shown to fascinate others. The ones that bore me would probably not find favor with me, and that probably applies to others. I'm thinking that perhaps grading creative writing might require a whole panel of folks? I don't know.

Interesting about self-publishing. I wonder if there's a place on DU where one could publish segments of short stories and novels? I'd be interested in reading some of your work!

 

idendoit

(505 posts)
31. What an excellent post.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 08:31 PM
Apr 2014

I believe one need look no further than the popularity of a piece of ill written tripe like Fifty Shades of Grey.

knitter4democracy

(14,350 posts)
33. A few thoughts from this high school English teacher:
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 10:41 PM
Apr 2014

1. Your ideas for "Twelfth Night" are what we usually do on the high school level, not on the college level. In order to do any of those projects, one needs a solid basis in critical thought and analysis, so I'm not sure why you're saying they are somehow better or better suited to the college level.

2. One thing I learned in taking a couple of 500-level literature courses for fun was that many programs really don't teach good textual analysis these days. Sure, students could cite this critic or that critic, but they couldn't do a phoneme-by-phoneme analysis, a syntactical analysis, or anything on a really close reading level--and neither could the professor. My little Christian college taught me well in that regard, mostly because the critics weren't safe to teach there, but the texts were as long as we kept our mouths shut outside of class.

3. Because so many colleges have separate creative writing degrees, it really should come as no surprise that regular English major programs require so little in the way of creative writing.

4. Lastly, I don't see why you would attack critical analysis or critical thinking as somehow less-than compared to writing. Both skills are important in any job, sure, but in all reality, critical analysis/thought is something sorely lacking in many businesses today, something we English majors can help with. When I was a temp in college during my breaks, I was offered more than one job, and I remember asking one boss why when I didn't have a business degree. He said, "I can teach you the business part, that's easy, but what most business majors can't do is write well or think for themselves." I do not think we are doing English majors a disservice in teaching them how to analyze and think for themselves as well as how to write critical analysis pieces.

TheBlackAdder

(28,194 posts)
34. A few retorts:
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:22 PM
Apr 2014

1) Each school system is different. Where you might teach a rewrite of "Twelfth Night," it might not be to the level I am actually referring to. In any event, the skills that I discussed with other students were skills that they and I are all lacking in, as intakes from various school districts and states. So, your state and school district might be pioneering on this one aspect, especially if it's at the AP levels my kids take and have taken, but standard track Academic Level and some Honors level high school programs, from multiple states, does not teach this. Many of the students taking English did not concentrate on it in high school. The point is, we're in college now and those skills are needed, especially when most every student I've conversed with state that they desire this training.

2) The Critical Methods courses in college teach the various literary devices and stylistic techniques. The analysis is expected at that level, not just summary input.

3) NJ State universities are relatively consistent in their approaches, possibly following some State D.o.E. edict.

4) As stated earlier, Critical Methods is an important concept and trait that is also needed with elective courses. Once critical analysis is mastered, there is no need to force 6-7 critical analysis papers each month with zero creative submissions. If one's goal is to work for a business or be a technical writer or op-ed, then critical analysis and news copy training is required and should be reinforced, but the regular English student wants to develop creative abilities. Unfortunately, you confuse the concept of critical analysis with the ability to think for oneself. In order for a person to think for oneself, they should not be confined to a rigid format that is expressly utilized by academia for peer-reviewed papers. Writing a five page critical analysis paper takes roughly one to two hours because it's the same thought processes and methods. Creating a unique conceptual work that is solid can take many days. Critical analysis forces a narrow skill set onto the student and it gradually affects their ability to creatively write--especially when they aren't taught creative writing skills or allowed to develop them. As someone mentioned above, it's probably easier for a professor to grade the same set of papers than to receive varying forms and structures that may or may not appeal to the professor, since personal taste would then enter into the grading equation.

knitter4democracy

(14,350 posts)
41. My replies to your retorts. ;)
Mon Apr 7, 2014, 09:23 AM
Apr 2014

1. I did that assignment at an alternative high school with students who had already done English 9's R&J three times and needed to be taught a different play in a small pull-out group. Not sure why you thought it was only an AP or honors level assignment, since it's often done on the middle school and high school levels. Then again, that group's final test for the unit was fairly stunning (they had to write up how they'd produce the play with a $500 grant at our school from casting to costumes to sets--they blew that one out of the water).

2. If I understand correctly, creative writing majors don't have to take that class, and some kinds of English majors don't, either. It was optional for English majors in education, if I remember right, at my college. At least, the elementary ed people didn't have to take it. I don't think it makes sense to say that students will master a skill in just one class and so don't have to do it ever again in other classes.

3. Most states do have some sort of standard curricula amongst college degree programs, but that does not mean that they are the same from state to state.

4. Personal taste is easy to deal with when a good rubric is used, and frankly, even given I went to a conservative Christian college, I never have had a professor ever say that I couldn't tackle a paper in a more creative way. The only place I've found that is very against the idea of writing anything other than exactly what is delineated is my graduate program in education; every English prof I have had, from my college to grad classes at a state school, has always said that creative options were not only allowed but encouraged. I don't think they like reading the same dreck over and over again, just like I don't. Just because students go with the safe, boring option doesn't mean other options don't exist. Heck, I wrote an essay in my Am. Lit. class in college that was in the epistolary style that my prof helped me edit into something better, taking time to meet with me one-on-one a few times to work through the writing process with me--all that, just because I asked if I could.

College is what we make of it. It's easy to blame the system or to blame the parts of the system we interact with the most, professors, but in reality, it's not their fault if we don't learn to stretch our wings, ask for the chance to try something different, or look at the assignment and see a different way to do it that still meets the requirements. They set up the right conditions, and if we're too scared for our GPA to take the risk, that's on us, not them.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
36. I was a literature major, but this is an example of why I chose a creative writing emphasis.
Sun Apr 6, 2014, 11:35 PM
Apr 2014

I still had to take "regular" lit courses, which did include a good deal of what this article calls critical analysis, but the majority of my major-related coursework was focused on developing my own writing skills. Not the most lucrative career path, perhaps, but at least I'm doing what I'm good at even if I don't make a living at it (yet).

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
39. Many people who obtain English degrees are not doing so to get some crappy job.
Mon Apr 7, 2014, 04:50 AM
Apr 2014

People who want jobs get Degrees in "Communication" and "Media" and things like that.

The split in English studies tends to run between the Creative Writing types and the English as a discipline types, but in neither case is it just about getting a job. For that you study welding or plumbing or education.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
45. They're at least partly right...
Mon Apr 7, 2014, 12:53 PM
Apr 2014

...in a job market which makes no place for anyone not directly enriching a billionaire.

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