Woo is woo.

[Archae]

I don't care how many people claim to have been "helped" by "alternative medicine," it's woo.

Homeopathy is woo.

Acupuncture is woo.

Chiropractic is woo.

Those ads saying "Eat this and it'll cure your high blood pressure or diabetes" are woo.

There are many others as well, listed here, that are woo.
http://www.skepdic.com/

The key problem woo has, is that every time, and I mean *EVERY* time woo is tested under proper scientific conditions, it fails.
Every time.

[arcane1]

1. What about that stuff you sprinkle on breakfast cereal to neutralize the radiation from Fukishima?

Yes, I know someone who does this. Overly concerned about the effects of radiation, but not too concerned to move her and her young son away from California. Why bother, when I can sprinkle magic powder on my breakfast?

[Archae]

3. You got to be kidding, someone actually sells that?

PT Barnum understated his point.

"There's a sucker born every minute."

[arcane1]

13. And someone actually buys it, too.

[Separation]

92. But you are missing the point!

Neither one of them have suffered from radiation poisoning!

I started a anti-bear patrol here a few weeks ago, haven't seen one bear!

[ProfessorGAC]

99. My Wife Uses A LOT of Garlic

There hasn't been a vampire or werewolf spotted in the whole county for at least 25 years.

Incontravertible data, i would say!

[Separation]

102. Can't argue that kind of data Professor!

[ProfessorGAC]

127. Just Sayin'

At least it's not a "i know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who once got cured by sucking on a pebble" story.

[SidDithers]

2. And apparently, ridiculing homeopathy is now "hippie punching"...

Last edited Fri Apr 11, 2014, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024808929

I think even hippies wouldn't want to be associated with the genius-level bullshit that is homeopathy.

Edit: Awesome. Someone alerted and the post was hidden.

Sid

[haikugal]

14. I found that odd as well. n/t

[Warpy]

17. I know a few old hippies who treat themselves and their kids with it

However, they also took the kids to an ER if they were really sick and kept everybody's vaccinations up to date.

Woo is for when you're not that sick and are hoping the placebo effect will make you feel better. Sometimes it even works out that way.

[dionysus]

19. how's those magic crystals i sent you Sid? are they working?

[Warren DeMontague]

28. They work like a fucking CHARM!

I'll tell you more after I finish vacuuming the ceiling and clearing the NSA spies out of my vegetable crisper.

[SidDithers]

38. They hurt when I use them...

they were suppositories, right?

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Stick em with the pointy end

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Whaddaya mean "even Hippies", Sid?

Seriously, man. I agree with you about homeopathy and woo, but... What the fuck.

[dionysus]

32. wait... didn't he say that even hippies would NOT want to be associated with such woo?

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I don't care, Sid owes me for that. I need a miracle, brah

no, seriously, I could use a miracle bra.

[zappaman]

41. Brings back memories

Never asked for a miracle but did make a few happen.
One time, the girl I gave it to broke down in tears of joy.
Happy times.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Yep. Me too. Unfortunately I thought the scene turned sour around mid '93.

I saw a couple decent shows after that but really the salad days for me were 85-91.

One of my favorite stories was the guy I saw walking around with his finger in the air "I need a ticket"... inside the show.

[KittyWampus]

47. I stopped going when I noticed how many people were selling crap in the parking lot… and tickets

were so hard to find.

Back in the day, people gave away extra tickets. At least in my circle of friends.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Yeah. I feel real fortunate to have seen some of the ones I did.

Obviously there were some duds, but man.. the ones where they blew the roof off the Universe made it all worthwhile.

[zappaman]

48. Ha!

Yeah, I agree it went sour about that time.
That's what they got for having a hit.
My first was in 81 and I will never forget it.

Onondaga War Memorial Auditorium, Syracuse, NY (4/8/82)

Feel Like a Stranger
They Love Each Other
Me and My Uncle
Big River
Friend of the Devil
Little Red Rooster
Ramble on Rose
Let it Grow

Funiculi Funicula
Playin' in the Band
Uncle John's Band
Estimated Prophet
Eyes of the World
drums
Not Fade Away
Black Peter
Playin' in the Band
Johnny B. Goode

U.S. Blues

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Nice.

Never caught any East Coast shows, of course listening to some of them the band was often on fire for the NY crowds, particularly. Farthest east I got was Buckeye Lake in Ohio.

[zappaman]

57. Started in the east

but ended in the west when I moved to Los Angeles in 1986.
Some of the worst shows I ever saw were in Los Angeles. Just got the feeling they didn't like LA.
I think the best time I had was in Kansas...

Sandstone Aphitheatre, Bonner Springs, KS (6/24/91)

Help on the Way
Slipknot!
Franklin's Tower
C.C. Rider
It Takes a Train to Cry
Me and My Uncle
Big River
Althea
Promised Land

China Cat Sunflower
I Know You Rider
Estimated Prophet
Uncle John's Band
drums
space
The Other One
Morning Dew

Around and Around


Sandstone Aphitheatre, Bonner Springs, KS (6/25/91)

Jack Straw
Sugaree
Walkin' Blues
Candyman
Stuck Inside of Mobile
Tennessee Jed
Music Never Stopped

Scarlet Begonias
Fire on the Mountain
Truckin'
Smokestack Lightnin'
He's Gone
drums
space
Comes A Time
Goin' Down the Road Feelin' Bad
Good Lovin'

It's All Over Now

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Re: LA... Gee, ya think?

I never saw any LA shows, either.. Not entirely deliberately although I think it was instinctive. But the Henry J. Kaiser in Oakland and later Shoreline were like my 2nd homes for a while.

If you were at Alpine Valley, or Deer Creek, our paths probably crossed in the Midwest.

[Atman]

129. My first date with my wife of 35 years

Lakeland Civic Center, FL. One of the worst shows I've ever seen. Two hours of free-form acid jams. Never played one song I'd ever heard before. Plus an agonizing 15 minute drum solo. Of course, the whole concert is online...someone recorded a bootleg. I downloaded and gave it to my wife as an anniversary present a few years ago. We're still married.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. ...um.....May of 1977, perchance?

[SidDithers]

36. Poor choice of words...

I didn't mean to denigrate hippies, even if it came out sounding that way.



Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

40. It's fine, man.

[zappaman]

44. LOL

Great hide!

[pintobean]

110. It's Déjà woo all over again.

[maddezmom]

111. LOL

OMG, just said the same thing when I saw this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024810156

[NuclearDem]

112. There must be something in the diluted water.

[maddezmom]

113. I am thinking

It is time to open a bottle of wine.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. ...

[Arcanetrance]

5. Eat garlic with every meal not only does it make all things taste better but it'll also increase

Your luck energies. The second part of that statement has not been reviewed or approved by the FDA but I'm a garlic eater and a guy on the Internet you can trust me.

[zappaman]

6. I love garlic and I'm lucky!

Proof you are right!!!!

[Arcanetrance]

9. On a serious note garlic is one of the greatest things on earth

I'll just eat cloves of it I can't imagine life without garlic

[zappaman]

11. Agreed!

And I wasn't kidding!

[dionysus]

34. i thought it is also very beneficial to artery\heart health...

I douse my recipies with that shit...and if someone complains it's too garlicky.. more for me!

[Arcanetrance]

35. I've heard that idk if it's true but if it is my heart will beat forever

My recipes call for entire bulbs of garlic

[applegrove]

101. I use garlic to fight fungal infections. Works like a charm. Is that woo? Because

I saw it on Dr. OZ.

[The Magistrate]

105. True, Sir: It Is Not a Condiment, It is An Ingredient

There is very little I cook up by the pot which does not include a whole head of the stuff....

[arcane1]

12. Well, garlic repells vampires, and you're lucky that you haven't been attacked by one.

I'd say that's solid proof!

[COLGATE4]

15. Much more effective than crosses.

Remember the story of the young woman being greedily eyed by the old vampire who bravely thrust the cross she always wore around her neck (presumably in the event of attack by vampire?) into the vampire's face? The response: "Oy, hev you got the wrong vampire".

[Arcanetrance]

16. With as much garlic as I eat I'd be a wmd against vampires

[Warren DeMontague]

26. I have noticed that it helps me fall asleep.

Seriously. I can feel the effect of eating a bunch of garlic, and not just in terms of the stink.

I think there are definitely psychoactive or pharmacological properties of certain foods, and I do think that a healthy diet can go a LONG way towards improving both state of mind and physical health. All of those seem like perfectly scientific propositions to me.

[Not a Fan]

69. on Garlic .....

From the Smithsonian:

Garlic

Garlic, of course, is a pungent herb. It also turns out to be an effective treatment for high blood pressure when taken as a concentrated supplement.

A 2008 meta-analysis of 11 randomized controlled trials (in which similar groups of participants were given either a garlic supplement or placebo, and the results were compared) found that, on the whole, taking garlic daily reduced blood pressure, with the most significant results coming in adults who had high blood pressure at the start of the trials.

On the other hand, there have also been claims that garlic supplements can prevent cancer, but the evidence is mixed. Observational studies (which rely on data collected from people already taking garlic supplements on their own) have found associations between garlic consumption and a reduced incidence of cancer, but that correlation could be the result of confounding factors. Controlled studies have failed to replicate that data.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-vitamins-and-supplements-are-actually-worth-taking-180949735/?no-ist

[laundry_queen]

7. ok.

[Rex]

8. "Try this one strange trick that doctors hate."

I see that all over the place and bet it is something stupid you have to buy after running around their website.

[Shoulders of Giants]

10. Wooooo!!!!

[Go Vols]

30. lol

[Revanchist]

126. For those who don't get the picture

[KittyWampus]

18. Using ones diet to improve ones health isn't woo. I feel really sorry for you.

You have a serious issue with posting constantly about things you think are "woo".

Googling your user name and "woo" shows how many freaking threads you've started.

And the posts almost always seem to be more about your need to bully and ridicule.

Posting dozens and dozens of threads in GD about what you think is woo…. maybe it's time your posts get put into Science forum or Religion and Spirituality forum?

[dionysus]

20. not, it's not woo because it isn't homeopathy, either ;)

[Archae]

22. It varies widely, by what is eaten and what for.

Diabetics do have to watch how much sugar they eat.

Heart patients are to lay off the really spicy stuff.

But when I get an ad on Pandora from a "doctor" who claims that eating his recipe for stew will cure diabetes, that is woo.

And I do not "bully."

But I have and will continue to ridicule woo.

Just as I ridicule creationism, geocentrism, flat-Earthism, and Teabaggers.

[KittyWampus]

43. So go to the freaking religion/spirituality forum and post your woo threads.Maybe you aren't

maybe you aren't even aware of how very many of these threads you start.

[pangaia]

51. [phone]

Has no idea what he/she is talking about.

[drokhole]

64. +1

[Gore1FL]

66. Where did he mention diet? n/t

[BuddhaGirl]

78. it's just silly flamebait

that crops up every so often

Nobody's minds are changed by it. There are those that favor alternative medicine and there are those who don't.

Lather, rinse, repeat...it's kind of amusing, imho.

[NuclearDem]

84. Where did he mention that dietary changes are woo?

I'll save you the trouble of looking, because he didn't.

I switched to a vegan diet specifically because the evidence shows cutting back on fats and dairy can improve your health. I didn't do it because some random .com told me my health would improve from the karmic feedback of not eating animals.

Ridiculous flamebait.

[Boreal]

122. I've noticed the same

and wondered if the OP is a pimp for big pharma (which kills many and also makes many lawyers rich).

I have been treated by a homeopath (who is also an MD) with amazing success and it was cheap and non toxic. I've also had acupuncture which worked.

The OP has an agenda that is anti natural methods of healing and even anti complimentary medicine (which falls in the realm of conventional).

Alternative and natural medicine is not woo. It's just his special way of trying to ridicule what he has a bug up his ass about. Woo refers to the paranormal (ghosts, bigfoot, channeling, shadow people, UFOs, etc) which I also see no reason to ridicule. People either have these experiences or they don't. I've never seen a ghost but have zero desire to sneer at someone who says they have. I am HIGHLY suspect of people who have the need to put down, ridicule, sneer at, bully, and otherwise make less of others.

[kentauros]

123. The Septics of DU

cannot stand the fact that self-identifying Liberals do not take all of their advice 100% of the time. And so they throw a septic-tantrum every time we do not abide with their 'superior' wisdom.

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Twice a year I manage to throw my back out...

lower back, pinching the nerve that goes down to my left leg. I feel the pain there and in my left testicle. I guess the relief I feel after I get straightened out by the chiropractor is imaginary.

[Archae]

23. A good massage works too.

Chiropractic is based on the now-discredited old theory that "nerve energy" causes pain and disease.

Look it up.

http://www.skepdic.com/chiro.html

[awoke_in_2003]

27. My sacrum actually shifts forward and up...

I haven't had the problem lately, because I wear an over the counter insole in my left boot. I get where you are coming from about "woo", and don't think it should hold sway over real medicine, but some things do work for some people. Is there some magical cure for cancer out there? I don't think so. But somethings can help people.

[Maedhros]

49. I think it's entirely possible that chiropractic adjustment can alleviate pain caused by pinched

or compressed nerves.

I think the designation of "woo" follows from the more outlandish claims that other conditions (i.e. indigestion, etc.) can be cured by spinal manipulation.

[drokhole]

68. And no one would suspect that rheumatoid arthritis would be linked to microbes in the gut...

...that is, chronic pains and stiffness in the fingers, wrists, and other joints...but that looks to be precisely the case, and it was something discovered only within the past few years:

Gut Microbes Linked to Rheumatoid Arthritis

Intestinal bacteria linked to rheumatoid arthritis

Kind of ridiculous to assume/claim that things may not be connected just because we can't clearly, or have yet to discover, a causal link between them. In the case of arthritic joints, someone who takes that kind of surface level approach would try to treat those targeted areas specifically (to little or no relief), and now evidence shows that treatment could very likely be a matter of things like probiotics and dietary change (which creates massive changes to your gut ecology/flora in a relatively short amount of time - A New Diet Quickly Alters Gut Bacteria). Here, the joint pains are a symptom of a more fundamental disease (involving invisible critters in the gut...which I'm sure would've been considered "woo" not twenty years ago, since we've only started examining, unraveling, appreciating, and honing in on the microbiome within the past decade...that is, save for a few "alternative" outlets who were largely ignored and admonished).

[awoke_in_2003]

74. I only brought it up...

because the OP mentioned chiropractic.

[laundry_queen]

50. I have the same type of issue with my hip

started when I was a teen. The only fix was the chiropractor (that was my last resort, I had been to doctors, was on a few strong meds, did physio and massage once a week and did exercises). I hobbled in, with pain shooting down my leg and barely able to shuffle and I walked out of his office totally pain free. I stopped all my meds that day (pain meds, muscle relaxants and anti-inflammatories). Whenever I feel it coming on (every year or so) one or 2 visits to the chiro fixes it. I suppose it's all in my head, and that it was just because the chiro 'massaged' me that it worked (lol whatever, the OP has issues).

[Logical]

54. Yes, actually it is. I had a doctor tell me that if I went to a chiropractor it would get better....

in 3-4 days. If I didn't go it would get better in 3-4 days. I tried 2 one way, 2 the other. Damn, he was right.

[awoke_in_2003]

75. I brought up "testicle" for a reason...

I was not trying to do a TMI post. When you have a pain in your testicle, there is no mistaking it. When it is no longer there, there is no mistaking that, either. A pinched spinal nerve caused by a mechanical misalignment in your back is not going to get corrected with meds. Meds can help with nerves that are pinched by swelling, though. That, however, was not my issue.

[JoePhilly]

59. Same kind of thing for me.

I get this one very specific upper back/next pain, right side. Makes it hard to turn my head to the right. If I ignore it, it won't go away. And if I can't get to the Chiropractor for a few days, doesn't go away.

I go to the Chiropractor my wife recommended, and in about 2 hours, I can feel a difference. By the next morning, the pain is gone.

[awoke_in_2003]

77. We must be imagining it...

[Separation]

95. I told my neurosurgeon I wanted to go see a chiropractor

I was tired of having to take Morphine and many other pain killers. He said fine go ahead, just make sure you have a wheelchair handy. Something to do with my back having more metal in it than a Tonka Truck expo and one wrong twist I won't be able to walk.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

100. In February, while playing tennis, I got a pain in my lower back and...

"groin" area at the same time. The back part didn't seem serious but the groin pain was sharp, especially when I stood up from a sitting position. So I searched the web for groin injury and found that it described what I was experiencing: groin pain was actually caused by tightness in back. Gave 5 exercises to do to loosen the back. As long as I stick with it, the pain is gone.

I hope that isn't wooo lol

*yes, I should go to a doctor but I'm waiting to get a job so I can get insurance. Shouldn't be long now

[magical thyme]

130. my dog was making it up too, when the veterinary chiropracter

who learned her chiropractic "woo" at Tufts University veterinary school, adjusted a series of subluxations in his L3-L7 vertebrae.

Strangely, not only did his back pain seem to stop, so did his severe diarrhea.

The diarrhea was so severe that it looked like he was passing chyme and had caused massive weight loss within days (from 85 pounds to 72 pounds).

It couldn't possibly have been caused by the subluxations causing inflammation that pressed on the nerve bundle that feeds the peristaltic contractions of the small intestine, causing spasms that were forcing the chyme through his small intestine before he could absorb nutrients.

Nah. It was just a coincidence. She re-aligned L3-L7 and suddenly he was bouncing around like a puppy for the first time since his initial back injury (caused by accidental kick from horse). And the diarrhea just happened to slow down and stop within the next 2 days.

Because chiropractic is woo and Tufts University Medical School teaches its vets woo. And my silly dog believes in woo.

[riderinthestorm]

133. Animals can't manufacture a placebo response. They either get relief or they don't.

I've had a few bouts here with the "anti-woo" folks about the stuff vets will prescribe for horses. Veterinarians are working far, far ahead of human doctors in their research on treatment options in my experience. I remember back in the 80s an Arlington Racetrack vet was experimenting with a new treatment - snake venom to paralyze tendons while they healed. Now, years later, that "revolutionary" horse treatment (which would definitely be characterized as 'woo" by this crowd) is botox.

The race industry dumps billions of dollars into equine research and frankly, they don't care if anyone sneers at their trials. Vets either get the animal some relief with a treatment or they don't. I use every tool available - from chiropractic to acupuncture - to ensure performance and to keep the horses comfortable. The top vets and vet schools in the nation guide my decisions along with my own observations. No owner will put up with perpetually dumping $$ into a treatment that isn't working.

Glad your dog got relief! That's all that matters imho, so these threads tend to make me want to shake my head at those who are so close-minded.

[ellennelle]

25. woo hoo?

so, scientific studies are all not woo?

even the ones that are funded by pharma and monsanto and the tobacco and coffee and wine industries, etc. ad nauseam?

i would assume especially the ones that have a vested interest in killing all alternative markets, whether scientific or not?

so, what are we to make of all the scientific studies in europe that support homeopathy, cannabinoidiol, massage, etc.?

and, just out of curiosity, i'm assuming that all these scientific, not woo, studies must always have a control group, right? one that's given a placebo?

now, help me understand that woo, won't u?

[NuclearDem]

33. No, they're not, by definition.

Woo is a term for pseudoscience. Science and pseudoscience are not the same thing. Pseudoscience doesn't adhere to the scientific method, and therefore doesn't engage in "scientific studies."

Science can never be woo by definition.

You're describing ethics and economics issues, not scientific. Pointing out the unethical practices of Big Pharma and using that to justify buying woo is like saying you should try putting out fires with your mind instead of calling the fire department, since fire axes can be used to kill people.

[KittyWampus]

45. right, giving horse piss to menopausal women so they get breast cancer isn't woo.

Giving thalidomide to pregnant women so their kids end up deformed isn't woo.

That's "Science".

[NuclearDem]

81. That thalidomide was an abomination of a drug doesn't verify homeopathy.

You're referencing a drug from the 1950s, before the medical community thought drugs taken by pregnant women could affect their fetus. Tests for possible birth defects weren't run because they never thought it was possible.

And guess what? When the drug came up for approval in the US and the US distributor couldn't come up with sufficient studies or tests to assure the FDA of its safety, the FDA denied it.

There were so many things wrong with thalidomide, but absolutely fucking none of them stem from the scientific method.

But thank you for making my point about conflating ethics/economics issues with scientific issues.

[Rider3]

29. Woo?

I don't know this silly term, "woo," but don't discount these things. Acupuncture helped me, as did chiropractic care -- greatly helped! If it didn't help you, at least you gave it a try. Don't tell others it doesn't work. It might work for them.

[drokhole]

73. The military, out of desperation (pain meds aren't working), has turned to acupuncture...

...and meditation, and it's working:

Excerpt from the movie Escape Fire: The Fight to Rescue American Healthcare

"Fifteen years ago we did a consensus conference at the National Institutes of Health and we asked the question, 'do we have good evidence to show that acupuncture is safe and effective for any condition?' They said, 'absolutely its been demonstrated that acupuncture is safe and effective, especially with post-operative and injury pain.' Fifteen years later, you can't walk into your average hospital today and get acupuncture after an operation. The problem is not that it doesn't work, the problem is that we haven't figured out how to get it into the system so that we can make it widely available to the population."

Acupuncture is worth a try for chronic pain (Harvard Health Blog)

Acupuncture for Chronic Pain (JAMA Internal Medicine)

Efficacy Of Acupuncture For PTSD In Military Personnel (US Army slideshow presentation)

And the majority of those going into these treatments are not only "skeptical" of them, but actively disbelieve they will work, which means "placebo effect" doesn't account for it.

[Separation]

96. Macdill AFB in Tampa has one now

Unfortunately Im not allowed near a chiropractor. Tried acupuncture for two months outta pocket with no help unfortunately.

[TBF]

31. In general people do better

with their health if they avoid sugar, eat lots of vegetables, and other things in moderation. Fairly decent cases can be made against dairy and meat, and certainly some folks must avoid milk and/or gluten.

I certainly try to eat the foods that are less likely to make my arthritis flare up. But I'm not going to stop taking my meds either because I remember what it was like before I took them (sky high inflammation levels).

Exercise can help a lot as well - even adding a few hours of walking a week (say at least 30 minutes 5 x a week) - but I would add it and not do it as a substitute for the blood pressure medicine (for example).

The thing with the woo is that it can kill.

[bearssoapbox]

39. Woo is opinions, assholes and bellybuttons...

Everybody has one.



Don't really care about woo.

I'm just in a Friday mood.

WOOOOO HOOOOO!!!!!!





Edited to edit.

[Lizzie Poppet]

53. Woo woo woo woo woo!

[AverageJoe90]

56. Ontological Dawkinsite materialism is woo, too. So is the "gateway drug" theory.

Hell, I could probably list dozens of other things, too: colloidal silver, holy water, etc.

[Vashta Nerada]

58. It's all crap.

I'd be embarrassed if I told someone I was a chiropractor. Those are the people who couldn't cut it in med school.

[independentpiney]

87. Couldn't cut pre-veterinary in the case of my ex- brother in law

He was probably the dumbest of my friends growing up.

[upaloopa]

60. Wow you have spoken now I never have to think

just read your OPs and I'll be ok.

[eallen]

61. Some things aren't woo. Vegetables. Exercise.

Neither come in pill form.

[Gore1FL]

67. He didn't call those woo. n/t

[tritsofme]

63. Woo woo?

?imgmax=800

[Gore1FL]

65. Chiropractic isn't woo

When my neck was out of alignment I had stroke-like symptoms. When my neck was put back into place, those symptoms ended.

I think decompressing compressed nerves through physical manipulation goes beyond "woo." I'd rather go to a D.O. than a Chiropractor, but to say spinal alignment is "woo" is simply wrong. It also holds up to scientific scrutiny: http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/musculoskeletal-pain


The rest of which you speak is woo. And I agree, woo is harmful.

[glinda]

71. Neither is acupuncture. My mother was unable to

walk without pain or meds and after a few sessions of acupuncture, she was able to walk and not take painkillers. Helped her immensely. I think sometimes it does not help for some conditions though but for backs it releases chems in the body by stimulation and this helps in regards to pain.

[independentpiney]

89. Spinal manipulation can be very helpful

But many chiropractors actually deny germ theory and believe all illnesses are caused by 'subluxations'. I'd be very careful with the neck manipulations as well. as they've been documented of causing strokes in a few cases.

[eridani]

125. Not as long as it is strictly used to treat musculoskeletal issues

But "subluxations" causing cancer and heart disease? Yep, that's woo.

[hrmjustin]

70. I say Woo unto thee!

[jtuck004]

72. Is it "woo" to spend more money for health care and get worse results than many nations

around you? And then look down our noses at others. Until we die before them, that is.

Or maybe it's just crazy...

(imo, acupuncture ain't woo, and the AMA and AVA agree. The individual practice of either may be depending on the individual, but the medicine the Chinese have developed over many years is quite good. Just different.)

[drokhole]

76. "...we asked [the NIH] 'do we have good evidence to show that acupuncture is safe and effective..."

Excerpt from the movie Escape Fire: The Fight to Rescue American Healthcare:

"Fifteen years ago we did a consensus conference at the National Institutes of Health and we asked the question, 'do we have good evidence to show that acupuncture is safe and effective for any condition?' They said, 'absolutely its been demonstrated that acupuncture is safe and effective, especially with post-operative and injury pain.' Fifteen years later, you can't walk into your average hospital today and get acupuncture after an operation. The problem is not that it doesn't work, the problem is that we haven't figured out how to get it into the system so that we can make it widely available to the population."

Acupuncture is worth a try for chronic pain (Harvard Health Blog)

Acupuncture for Chronic Pain (JAMA Internal Medicine)

Efficacy Of Acupuncture For PTSD In Military Personnel (US Army slideshow presentation)

[840high]

79. I have always dealt with medical

problems by combining woo and traditional medicine.

[Kablooie]

80. But Breatharianism, that's hard science.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/edible-innovations/breatharian.htm

[riderinthestorm]

82. Is Alcoholics Anonymous "woo"? According to your rubric it is

Only has a 5% "success" rate too.

Guess all those good DUers (and the other several million Americans) who have found relief have been put in their place by you eh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024745922

Good job

[fbc]

88. Placebo effect

The placebo effect is a known phenomenon.

[riderinthestorm]

94. So every one of the good DUers who have been helped are simply idiots prone to a placebo?

And the other millions of alcoholics nationwide? They too are simply idiots?

Sorry. I don't buy it. Its insulting to those who have found relief.

AA (and similar programs) work. We don't understand it and can't explain it but there you have it.

For some percentage of people it works and to denigrate their relief is too simplistic. Instead of labelling them "woo" or "placebo", we should be trying to figure ou "why".

That would be good science.

To be objective and not emotional in automatically rejecting data but to keep an open mind.

[pitohui]

136. thats a terrible example since AA demonstrably doesnt work

5% of alcoholics going into recovery is surely no better than chance, thats roughly the same rate that goes into recovery from any random treatment or rehab

havent you seen for yourself how desperately most alcoholics want to be cured & how fuck-all useless the rehabs, AA, and other treatments we have really are for the overwhelming majority?

it is not good science to say AA works when it has been around since the 30s and millions of alcoholics (not to mention their families) cant escape the disease

what would be good science would be to be to develop an actual cure instead of pretending AA works because it's free & once in a rare while somebody escapes the trap of alcoholism while they happen to be in AA

i do think we need an open mind, but when an open mind becomes an excuse for not funding genuine research or genuine cures...then i dunno, i think that's truly the situation we see w. alcoholism

[Warren DeMontague]

91. I wouldn't call it "woo", or 2nd guess someone's path to sobriety- I disagree that it's the ONLY way

and unfortunately, it is an unspoken or spoken piece of "shop-worn wisdom" in many of those rooms, that it's the ONLY way, that any alcoholic, for instance, that seeks sobriety without "turning their lives over to God as they understand him" isn't capable of "really" getting sober.

It's bullshit, and for once I'd like to hear more than a few renegade 12 steppers acknowledge the fact that there are other programs, paths, and methods that also work for some people, just as the 12 steps work for some people, particularly those who aren't Atheists-- or, if they are, are willing to do considerable semantic gymnastics with the "G" word.

[riderinthestorm]

93. Did you read my link? Many DUers with experience in other 12 step programs

posted in that thread. So take my comment to mean 12 step programs in general as well as AA.

The OP is very facile in condemning those who get relief outside the mainstream. Its not a placebo effect, that much is clear.



I just think there's a lot we don't understand and a blanket condemnation of "woo" is counterproductive when we can't even define what the rubric is for success. Is 5% of alcoholics succeeding in finding a treatment plan with 12 step programs "woo"? According to the OP it is. Ask those who have benefitted however if its "woo" and you'll likely get whalloped upside the head.

It worked for them. So are you condemning them too as idiots buying into snake oil?

Pretty damn harsh

[Warren DeMontague]

98. No, I'm not "condemning them too as idiots buying into snake oil". If I was, I would say that.

And I weighed in on that thread, too, in case you didn't notice. I feel no need to rehash what I said there, except that I don't 2nd guess ANYONE'S path to sobriety, but it would be nice if 12 step programs and their devotees could do a better job of not telling addicts "when you're ready, you'll accept some version of God, because that's the ONLY way people get better."

It's not. I know people whose lives have been saved by AA and/or the 12 steps, but I also know people whose lives have been saved by things like Rational Recovery- and I know too many 12 steppers who go "la la la I can't hear youuuuu no such thing" when anyone mentions secular alternatives to 12 step programs.


Also, I think it's ridiculous to be comparing a psychological program designed to work on human attitudes and behavior to someone asserting that bat guano diluted 10,000 times in water carries some magical medical property.

[WillyT]

83. Yep... We've Got It All Figured Out... Just Like Before Galileo, Einstein, Currie...

I was once told, as a child, that my peanut allergy was all in my head... by a nurse...

In my head I'm thinking... "Who Cares ???"

In my head or not, my lips swell up. my breathing becomes restricted, I vomit, I go to the hospital.

[fbc]

85. Homeopathic Emergency Room

enjoy!

[fbc]

86. Lifestyle Nutritionists

and more!

[SidDithers]

119. Mitchell and Webb are brilliant...

Sid

[Ratty]

90. Just because some quacks make outrageous claims, doesn't make it all woo

Acupuncture is not woo. There is solid clinical research demonstrating its efficacy in several areas. Acupuncture is known to relive pain. It does not cure cancer or heart disease as quacks suggest.

Chiropractic is not woo. The fact that it relieves back and neck pain when other medical treatments fail is beyond dispute. However a "subluxated vertebrae" is not the cause of 95 percent of all diseases as quacks suggest.

Clinical evidence suggests that garlic may have a beneficial effect on blood pressure. Though the finding aren't conclusive, really what is the harm in eating more garlic in hopes it might have a beneficial effect? There is no evidence it cures cancer, as quacks suggest.

Homeopathy: OK yeah, that one's all woo.

[Bjorn Against]

97. The only people more lacking in critical thinking skills than woo peddlers...

Are the people who are so closed minded that they will dismiss all alternative medicine as woo.

[Samantha]

103. and yet thousands of unnecessary operations are performed in the United States each year

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/06/20/2190041/study-doctors-unnecessary-surgery/

Overall, I think people must take the responsibility for making the decision they believe is right for them. There are some natural ways of treating some problems. Conversely, there are probably many unnatural ways, as well.

Sam

[qazplm]

104. wrong isnt necessarily "woo"

I don't think chiropractic is "woo." It may be of minimal (or even no) benefit, although I'd probably side with minimal, but it isn't in the same league IMO as homeopathy or healing crystals or some of those other truly woo things.

Acupuncture, again, I'd rather take something medicinal for the pain (aspirin, ibuprofen, or stronger stuff), but there is at least SOME evidence for pain reduction, or at least some types of pain reduction.

[KurtNYC]

106. Flame bait is woo.

[djean111]

107. Looks like flu vaccine just might be woo, too!

[maddezmom]

109. Do you mean the antivirals?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024809944

[djean111]

117. Yes. I was sort of kidding, but sort of serious.

I feel that many scientific studies are made, but that sometimes the ones that don't turn out so well are not shared.
I will admit to not taking flu shots because the makers have absolutely no liability if there is an adverse reaction.
Had a law passed in 2011.

IMO there is no incentive to make a safer vaccine. And I don't really trust the testing. Therefore, given the new revelation about flu vaccine not really helping much and possible causing damage - woo.

[davidpdx]

108. I have a pretty health skepticism about things

I moved to Korea 10 years ago and have seen an oriental doctor for treatment on my arm (the quick back story on that is the first time I tripped and fell down, the second time I crashed on a motorcycle) a few times and have had success with acupuncture and other types of treatments.

One other type of treatment (I don't know how to describe it well) is a liquid that supposedly improves your energy and relieves fatigue. My wife took it for 3 weeks and it cost about $100 a week. That I am very skeptical about it working.

[flvegan]

114. It must be Friday. n/t

[NuclearDem]

115. Well, it's actually been a while since Woo War I.

[MrMickeysMom]

116. THIS again?

I think I'll go do some astrology and see what's on for April 19th to 20th...

[moriah]

118. Chiropractic is woo when used to treat actual back problems and not crap like asthma?

While I have to say I've gotten more out of massage therapy than I have chiropractic for my pain issues, it has helped some.

And ACA plans like mine pay for it for that indication, so we're supporting a lot of woo.

[drokhole]

144. Well, there are links to asthma and inflammatory/autoimmune disease...

Asthma as a paradigm for autoimmune disease (NIH)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14646381

...and, as DU user magical thyme pointed out in this thread, vertebrae in misalignment can put pressure and cause undue stress on nerve bundles that lead to inflammatory issues. So a chiropractic realignment, while not an outright "cure," could very well be help at some level. As the NIH paper points out, "until recently, it was generally accepted that the mechanisms that govern these disease processes are quite disparate"...but our bodies are a lot more integrated and interconnected than most people care to realize, acknowledge, or investigate.

On a somewhat related note, RadioLab featured an interesting guy who treated his chronic asthma by contracting "parasitic" hookworms. Turns out, they're pretty integral in regulating the immune system (it flat-out cured him). Two-parter (second one is a follow-up):

Sculptors of Monumental Narrative

An update on hookworms

And more and more in the medical community are starting to appreciate and explore the importance and wide-ranging effects our microbes have on "our" health (called the microbiome) - when it comes to asthma and beyond:

Gut instinct: the miracle of the parasitic hookworm
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/23/parasitic-hookworm-jasper-lawrence-tim-adams

Gut Bacteria Might Guide The Workings Of Our Minds
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/11/18/244526773/gut-bacteria-might-guide-the-workings-of-our-minds

5 Ways Gut Bacteria Affect Your Health
http://www.livescience.com/39444-gut-bacteria-health.html

Point is, from a surface-level approach, this is all very counter-intuitive stuff. Who would've thought of treating asthma with gut/intestinal microbes? Sounds pretty "woo," when you think about it.

[Hippo_Tron]

120. Okay, but is woo completely useless?

Anecdotally some of it has to work, even if it's just a placebo effect. Chiropractors would probably be out of business otherwise. If I were looking for a treatment, I'd certainly start with things that are scientifically proven to be effective. But if all of those treatments fail or I can't use them due to side effects, I might as well give woo a shot.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

121. woo woo

[kentauros]

124. Now, that made me laugh!

Although, I was also expecting some animated cartoon train

[Tuesday Afternoon]

134. I wish I had snagged the link to Ptah's unsynchronized woo hoos.

wouldn't they be perfect for this thread

[kentauros]

138. You mean these?

Collect The Whole Set!!!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

139. see, how they just fit right into this thread ?! They look right at home!

[kentauros]

140. Perhaps they need to be a direct reply to the OP and/or OP-author.

I think that would be most appropriate, so be my guest

(If I knew how to edit such animations, I'd change the 'h' to a 'w')

[Tuesday Afternoon]

141. where is Ptah when you need him?

[kentauros]

142. Well, I have an animated-gif editor,

but I'd have to take each individual image that needs changing into Photoshop (There's 39 images just in the first gif! ) Perhaps that's a project I can work on later today when I have more time.

I am looking at correcting some of the glitches, just to see how much smoother I can make them work though. When I have one finished, I'll upload it here. Seems like as good a place as any

[sendero]

128. Your brain is woo..

.... "the earth is round" was once woo.

[NuclearDem]

131. No it wasn't, and saying so shows you don't understand pseudoscience.

Woo or pseudoscience aren't "unpopular concepts", anti-establishment, or underground ideas that are just waiting for their chance to give the mainstream ideas their comeuppance.

Pseudoscience doesn't engage in the scientific method. They may appear to, and they may throw all sciencey words around to make them seem legitimate, but they're often not independently tested (whether the proponents won't reproduce the tests because they know something is bogus about it, or in the case of ESP, they can't).

Pseudoscience is NOT a term created to persecute unpopular ideas. It's a term created to distinguish bullshit from reality.

[ismnotwasm]

132. Gummy bear vitamins are as woo as I get

But they're like getting a reward for taking your calcium and things

[SidDithers]

135. Worst woo ever - Bleach enemas for children to cure their autism...

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/05/25/selling-bleach-as-a-cure-for-autism/

What condition, though, did I neglect? Well, given that this post is about Autism One, the answer should be obvious. Yep, as my reader pointed out, MMS is being featured in a talk at Autism One on Sunday by a woman named Kerri Rivera, who boasts of 38 Children Recovered in 20 months:

This presentation will outline the approach Kerri has used successfully to help recover 38 children from a diagnosis of Autism. She will explain how MMS (chlorine dioxide) has become the “missing piece” to the autism puzzle for so many of the families that she works with. MMS is available worldwide, and is extremely cost effective, bringing recovery in reach of all families, despite economic or geographic limitations. This presentation seeks to prove that Autism truly is curable.

Yes, Autism One is featuring a talk by a woman whose preferred form of therapy, besides hyperbaric oxygen, is to subject autistic children to industrial bleach in the deluded belief that she can “recover” autism with it. Rivera, it turns out, is a woman who runs a clinic in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico that she calls AutismO2 Clinica Hyperbarica. If her website is any indication, Rivera gives autistic children MMS by mouth and by enema. (Yes, she subjects autistic children to bleach enemas.) Here’s the protocol:

Enema:
10-15 drops MMS enabled and 500 mL water
In the colon for 12 – 30 minutes
Use pipette and syringe
Is applied 2 or 3 times per week

Elsewhere, we see this:

Kerri will be discussing recent protocol developments around MMS and Autism, such as loading the dose, the baby bottle, the baking soda mix, enemas, baths, and how to handle a fever.

So let’s see. It appears to me that proponents of MMS not only give MMS to autistic children orally, but bathes them in it and gives them enemas with it. For example, get a load of this webinar about using MMS Jim Humble (the originator of MMS quackery) himself! Predictably, it starts with a “medical disclaimer” (i.e., quack Miranda warning) and then devolves from there:

This is why some of us rail against woo so hard. Because there are people out there who have convinced credulous parents that their child can be cured with a fucking bleach enema!

Sid

[pnwmom]

137. Wrong. The effectiveness of acupuncture for pain relief has been demonstrated

by National Institutes of Health funded research conduced by researchers at Harvard, Chicago, the University of California, and the University of Washington and the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, among others.

And chiropractic care for the relief of pain has also been shown to be effective.

From the NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Center (which you probably think doesn't exist):

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/spinalmanipulation

Spinal Manipulation

Spinal manipulation—sometimes called "spinal manipulative therapy"—is practiced by health care professionals such as chiropractors, osteopathic physicians, naturopathic physicians, physical therapists, and some medical doctors. Practitioners perform spinal manipulation by using their hands or a device to apply a controlled force to a joint of the spine. The amount of force applied depends on the form of manipulation used. The goal of the treatment is to relieve pain and improve physical functioning.

Research Spotlights

Spinal Manipulation’s Effects May Go Beyond Those of Placebo or Expectation, Study Finds
(10/27/13)
Determining the Optimal Number of Spinal Manipulation Sessions for Chronic Low-Back Pain
(10/16/13)
Acupuncture May Be Helpful for Chronic Pain: A Meta-Analysis
(09/10/12)
Spinal Manipulation or Home Exercise More Effective Than Medication for Acute Neck Pain, Study Finds
(01/03/12)
Review of CAM Practices for Back and Neck Pain Shows Modest Results
(10/01/10)

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/102713

A recent clinical trial has added to knowledge about what goes on in the body and brain when people with chronic low-back pain receive spinal manipulation (also known as spinal manipulative therapy). The researchers found that spinal manipulation, compared with placebo and no treatment, significantly reduced pain sensitivity. They also reported there was support for a potential biological target to address central sensitization of pain, a phenomenon of heightened pain sensitivity that is linked with acute pain’s transition to chronic pain, and the persistence of chronic pain. The research, supported in part by NCCAM and the National Center for Medical Rehabilitation Research, part of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, appeared in The Journal of Pain.


http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/091012

The authors noted that these findings suggest that the total effects of acupuncture, as experienced by patients in clinical practice, are clinically relevant. They also noted that their study provides the most robust evidence to date that acupuncture is more than just placebo and a reasonable referral option for patients with chronic pain.

[drokhole]

145. +1