Phony militia bullies and tax cheats force BLM to back down - Breaking News

[superpatriotman]

So bullying works when the guns come out?

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230368/major-development-in-bunkerville-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm

The Bureau of Land Management has announced it will stop the roundup of cattle owned by rancher Cliven Bundy. The BLM says the animals have been illegally grazing on public lands for 20 years.

The BLM made the announcement Saturday morning, a week after rangers started gathering the animals from land near Gold Butte.

The agency says it is concerned about the safety of its employees and the public. Earlier this week, BLM officers and supporters of the Bundy family were involved in a scuffle. Cliven Bundy's son, Ammon Bundy, was tased twice by federal agents. Another woman said she was thrown to the ground by an officer.

With more Bundy supporters pouring in from around the country, safety concerns began to grow.

The I-Team has learned the deal to end the gather was brokered by Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie.

more at link


The moral of this story is?...

further link:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/12/citing-safety-concerns-blm-calls-cattle-roundup/

[fascisthunter]

1. pathetic

[JJChambers]

2. The moral is that Obama doesn't want another Waco or Ruby Ridge

There's a lot to lose by escalating and very little to again. A wise move by POTUS. Yes, to the general public it gives the appearance that he is weak and that the militants are strong and were justified, but that's a small price to pay to avoid bloodshed.

[dsc]

4. and the next time a group of people don't want to follow a law

and the next time, and the time after that. Either we have laws which are obeyed or we don't.

[DustyJoe]

15. unfortunately yes

With the executive branch and DOJ publicly selecting what laws they will enforce or not these past few years, does provide ammunition for this type of disdain for the law. Let's face it, if they can choose not to enforce trespassing over the national borders then why bother to enforce cows trespassing to eat some grass. A simple EO from the oval office or another edict from DOJ could render enforcement of this law moot like the others waived. Would save a lot of bad publicity. For the past over 100 years this family has grazed these lands with cows eating grass which regrows, why should there be this drama unfolding ? I guarantee wild cows and turtles lived together for centuries before this broughaha erupted. Jusy my opinion of course.

[Go Vols]

24. +1

[MohRokTah]

31. Wow, you support a thief.

Just wow.

[DustyJoe]

46. thievery

I consider animals grazing a crop not harvested by anyone, and the crop regrows as landscaping. I suppose no one has ever plucked a flower from a public park for their SO. It is obvious that the past 100 years of grazing has been done in a controlled manner and not overtrampled or overgrazed as to not destroy the ability to graze again. What use pray tell does the federal govt. have for these grass clumps chomped on by bovines ? The sheer size of the grazing area and the long term use and care of the land. I just cannot come up with the term 'thief' for this. I figure the feds may have a different use for the land other than open space, military maybe or sellof, who knows. This is not simply about grazing fees.

[MohRokTah]

47. Wow, and even less informed about public lands in the west.

Just wow.

Did you know that in 1936, the land had been so overgrazed that the federal government tried to give it back to the states, and they refused because of how much it would cost the states to repair the damages of overgrazing?

That's how the BLM got started.

And now this asshole is overgrazing and destroying the land and you support that?

Wow, you support one man and his family profiting from the destruction of public lands.

Just wow.

[JJChambers]

51. Wow

Wow

[IronGate]

63. And you support an armed confrontation that could lead to deaths on both sides over some cattle

grazing on public lands.

[AnalystInParadise]

70. For the win

[DustyJoe]

68. westerner

Lived out West (4-corners) all my life and my acreage is a spit away from millions of BLM acres, some that is used for grazing. If the rancher had overgrazed / destroyed the grazing areas his family has used for 140 years, there wouldn't be an issue as there wouldn't be any grass. The BLM is one of the biggest wastes of tax dollars in the budget next to EPA. Again, my opinion.

[MohRokTah]

69. Wow

Just wow.

Bye.

[DustyJoe]

73. Hasta La Vista Amigo /nt

[JJChambers]

84. I've noticed you say Wow in most of your posts. You must be shocked easily.

[superpatriotman]

75. What's your alternative?

I know the 'alphabet agencies' are despised in many corners, yet there are no common sense alternatives put forth by the despisers.

I am not cynical enough to believe that BLM, EPA, IRS, etc. are inherently wrong simply by their existence.

Lets' solve the problem, if we can.

[DustyJoe]

85. State Control

The feds have no skin in the game is my belief. States should control lands inside their border and any regulations or rules of use should be legislated by that states elected government, not the feds.

[superpatriotman]

88. That's okay if you trust your State

I, however, do not. It is run by crooks, idiots and con men (FL)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

196. Lots of people also say that about the federal agencies.

[gejohnston]

203. name a state that isn't

and what makes you think the feds are that much brighter, see DoD?

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Ah that stopped around 1865

we even fought a civil war over it. Before it we were Virginians and New Yorkers, after that Americans

And since oh water pollution in one state flows down the river.

You sure you are in the right site? 10th amendment fan though, that is clear.

[maddezmom]

83. Wha? What do you mean you can't forage?

[greatauntoftriplets]

92. Well, you can't pick flowers or stuff in Cook County forest preserves.

Other than that, What that has to do with the OP is a mystery.

[maddezmom]

95. Yea, I was thinking it is hard to forage in the library.

[greatauntoftriplets]

97. LOL, foraging for books?

Can't be much growing outside the library yet except maybe a few crocus.

[maddezmom]

158. Looks like she came back for some more

Foraging!

[pinboy3niner]

159. Defiant Forager, lol!

[maddezmom]

162. Maybe she should go here

http://coraroseapothecary.tumblr.com

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. My my, some facts

this is not a crop, and the cows have destroyed native plants, that are not coming back. Plants that local fauna depends on.

This is not wheat or corn we are talking about.

You really should try to educate yourself as to why this is is a problem.

[jpak]

90. They can get the fuck off of our land and pay us what they owe.

Fucking nutbags.

yup

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Enforce national borders...

This is the POTUS with the best enforcement of the border

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/jul/01/debbie-wasserman-schultz/more-border-security-and-patrols-under-obama-previ/

With separation of families as well

http://cssr.berkeley.edu/cwscmsreports/LatinoPracticeAdvisory/Immigration%20Enforcement%20and%20Family%20Separation.pdf

And of course yours was a RW or FOX derived talking point

[Crunchy Frog]

151. Did they back off from enforcing the law because

They were threatened by armed thugs? If not, then how is this similar?

[madokie]

37. I would say that there will be subpena's shortly

and this will be handled in the courts as it should be. Its a smart move on the feds part, after all their dealing with some pretty unstable people here. Both the Bundy family and the mercenaries called in. The bundy family will not come out on the top in all this you can bet on that.

[MohRokTah]

50. It has already been in the courts

This action was the last resort action to get this thief to comply with court rulings.

It's the final step the BLM will ever resort to and it took twenty years to get here.

No court will alter anything. It's either the BLM removes the cattle or Bundy wins with the threat of violence.

[Crunchy Frog]

166. According to the article, they're talking about splitting the proceeds

Of the sale of the cattle already rounded up, with the armed thugs.

[treestar]

179. It's not that simple

If you are going to think like that, you may as well agree with the neocons about the rest of the world, too. If looking tough and being tough is the only way to go, then why aren't we supporting more troops abroad? Sounds like the neocons.

[dsc]

198. there is a massive difference between trying to run the affairs of other countries

and enforcing one's own laws. The simple fact is, the issue here was litigated, relitigated, and relitigated again and this was supposed to be the final straw. Mark my words, there will be a stampede of people grazing on land they have no business grazing on after this and when we do finally crack down it will be much, much worse.

[MohRokTah]

5. I disagree. When you negotiate with terrorists, it results in more terrorism.

BAd move.

Very bad precedent.

[JJChambers]

6. So..

A few cows are worth a violent bloody conflict in which many will die?

[MohRokTah]

9. There will only be a violent confrontation if the thief and his supporters decide to be violent.

You do not back down from terrorists.

Now these idiots think they can just threaten violence any time and get away with it.

All this will do is end up in an even more violent confrontation than what could have happened here.

[madokie]

38. This will end up in a court room in front of a judge

Is how this will end.
The feds did the right thing and by doing so they didn't give up any ground, so to say.

[MohRokTah]

39. It's been in a court room, multiple times. Budy lost

Bundy threatened organized violence and the government backed down.

End of story.

[madokie]

41. Sorry but this isn't the end of story

you can bet your ass on that.

[MohRokTah]

44. Well, now that violent terrorist militias have been emboldened

I expect a LOT of violence nationwide since they know their threats will back down the federal government.

[madokie]

45. Good luck with that kind of thinking

you're going to need it

[MohRokTah]

100. Not like it will embolden anybody, I guess

OOPS

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/bundy-blm-reach-deal-stop-cattle-roundup

[ZombieHorde]

48. "Now these idiots think they can just threaten violence any time and get away with it."

Why not? It seems to work just fine for cops and soldiers.

[Crunchy Frog]

167. It's the armed thugs who made that decision.

And yes, I am willing to tolerate some bloodshed to avoid rule by armed mobs who threaten government officials.

[DiverDave]

183. NO!, but LAWS are

if you don't like a law, work to change it.
You don't threaten folks when you break laws.
Oh, and 20 years they gave him, 20 YEARS.
And he still wouldn't pay up.
Why aren't you up in arms about a poor person losing benefits because of an overpayment?
NO that isn't likely a white person, so crickets from the 'government is BAD' lunatics.
So, just go away, troll

[JJChambers]

187. Crying?? nt

Try being reasonable. Obama was wise to avoid bloodshed.

[Crunchy Frog]

195. So was Neville Chamberlain.

[DiverDave]

220. Crying?? huh?

[treestar]

181. there have been hostage negotiations

which resulted in a successful end. Some guy takes people hostage and gets talked down - the FBI has a unit for it. They get the guy into custody without anyone getting killed.

[Dragonfli]

219. I didn't know hostage negotiators backed down to guns letting the robbers have the cash

Maybe I'll buy a gun or twelve and make a withdrawal! Gun threats work to circumvent the laws, now poverty can be a thing of the past for the bold with nerve and firearms.

Thanks for the info!

[superpatriotman]

10. Agreed, but it opens doors to threats of violence as a means to an ends

by others who can't or won't accept a black man (or maybe a Woman) in the White House.

It's a sticky situation, to be sure, but the thieving rancher was clearly in the wrong here.

[JJChambers]

18. There are better ways of dealing with this then building up a mini-army

Freeze and seize any bank accounts he has. When things blow over, seize his vehicles when he comes to town. Slowly but surely take a few cows away that break from the herd. Eventually he will have nothing left. We don't need a macho mini-army to come in with machine guns and make this guy into a martyr.

[superpatriotman]

27. Too late

He's a living martyr now. And the precedent has been set.

[JJChambers]

28. He will soon be forgotten.

Ruby Ridge and Waco will not.

[MohRokTah]

42. The violent militas won't forget that just the THREAT of violence backs down the feds.

This is a defining moment and the future is very bleak now that violent terrorists know they can back down the federal government with just the threat of violence.

[JJChambers]

55. If the issue is a few cows and some unpaid expenses

Then yes, violence isn't the answer. Obama is smarter than you are and be is wiser the you are. He will pick his battles. If an issue arises that cannot be handled without conflict, then conflict there will be. That wasn't the case here however.

[MohRokTah]

61. IMO, this was the worst decision ever made by Obama, if he made it.

My guess is it never even got to Sally Jewell, let alone Barack Obama. Somebody way down in the food chain made this decision would be my guess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. And you would be correct

best case it reached senior BLM levels.

But this is the magical thinking that goes around that everything reaches the President's desk.

And if the magical thinking is right for once, this is a really bad precedent to set. Rural areas already believe the feds are out to get them. The battles in the back country between BLM officials and locals at times do get out of control and it is over issues like this: Cows grazing on federal land, preservation vs use, etcetera.

So if this was a decision made by the POTUS, which I highly doubt, it was a bad decision. If it was made by somebody much lower in the food chain, again, sets a bad precedent as far as these asshats are concerned. They will just be emboldened.

[ZombieHorde]

56. I agree.

I'm glad President Obama is taking a step away from violence. It's not like people are being oppressed by this rancher. Not every conflict needs to be addressed with violence.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

43. that's ridiculous position, but it's why banksters and Wall Street crooks...

get away with so much, then come back and take MORE!

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. You really think this rose all the way to the President?

I don't.

The decision was taken by on scene BLM commanders.

And now it will be handled in the courts, where I suspect Mr. Bundy will have his ass handed to him, or so I hope.

[JJChambers]

62. Absolutely I do

This has been on his radar for several days I'm sure and with the recent escalation, I suspect he was getting hourly briefings. This was very close to becoming a major, historic incident and you can bet POTUS shut this down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. And I am betting this decision was taken, best case, by senior BLM officials

not everything goes all the way up, in fact most crap does not.

[christx30]

217. But that's IF

Bundy will abide by a court decision. He could refuse to show up, or flip off the judge, then what? A contempt filing? Then what comes next is an attempt at an arrest. And a guy with a gun and a badge will try to take him into custody. A judge can say whatever he wants. It always comes down to force, or threat of force by the government. The difference now is that threat is being countered by subjects.

[TransitJohn]

79. Bad, bad precedent to set

They pull this shit with every sitting Democrating POTUS. Who's to say how emboldened they will be next time when another Democrat is POTUS?

[treestar]

178. +1 Conservative style "strength"

leads to bloodshed and they get blamed for that, too.

[Marrah_G]

225. I agree

He avoided human deaths. This is a good thing. The Militias were just dying for the chance to start a civil war. We haven't lost anything and no one needs to die over some cattle.

[MohRokTah]

3. NEgotiating with terrorists never works

They need to let this all quiet down, then arrest the thief.

[stevenleser]

11. For the win. 7-10 days from now, 3am night operation, grab him, throw him in jail.

No bail, change trial location to a federal district in the northeast, remand the defendant at a federal facility nearby until trial.

[Rex]

23. But an 'armed mob' might show up! Better just let him commit a crime

so nobody gets hurt. Read it here on DU.

[MohRokTah]

66. Yep, that's the position. Violent criminals must be allowed to commit their crimes.

Justified so that nobody gets hurt.

[Rex]

71. The double standard between that and OWS is dumbfounding.

No wonder so much of this culture is fucked up beyond all recognition.

It is just sad to see the legal authoritarians, back down to the threat of illegal authoritarians 'showing up' somewhere - presumably to shoot the everloving piss out of each other...because you know that is how they do it in the movies!

I blame TVEE. It makes people stupid enough to believe real life and reality TV are the same fucking thing.

[MohRokTah]

77. Well come now, OWS was peaceful

It's easy to bust heads when your vict.. er,... the perp is unarmed and non-violent.

[Rex]

81. Sad fucking reflection of where we are in 2014.

The Tea Party evidently scares the shit out of cops! I dunno why, but more or less that is the message sent.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

199. Maybe because a lot of LEO's identify and sympathize with right wing groups and causes? n/t

[steve2470]

89. yep seems like the best way to avoid another Ruby Ridge to me nt

[MohRokTah]

93. All it did was to embolden the terrorists

Now he demands that the BLM employees be disarmed and all weapons be brought to him. Seems he still has the armed militia people there.

[stevenleser]

145. I think the 7-10 day timetable still works. Let him try to feed & house the militia people long term

They will eventually leave. When they do, I'm estimating a week at most, nab him.

[Calista241]

216. Travel

All those militias have lives, jobs and a limited amount of money. How long can they be away from their primary business?

In two weeks are all these dudes going to drive 500 miles or pay $500 for a plane ticket again.

Just do what the Feds do best and bury your opponent in a legal hell with prohibitive costs.

Problem solved.

[Crunchy Frog]

175. Or have a really, really big one at some point in the future.

[Dawson Leery]

115. Indeed bring him to the northeast.

[JaneyVee]

7. Didn't they already round up the cattle?

Why stay?

[superpatriotman]

12. They rounded up 'some'

Then were forced to back down by some puffery and phony patriots.

Pathetic

[Rex]

8. So they backed down to illegal activity.

Sign of the times.

[IronGate]

14. They backed down to avoid a possible violent confrontation.

Kudos to LVMPD Sheriff Doug Gillespie.

[MohRokTah]

16. And it will only lead to a MORE violent confrontation

You've now emboldened violent terrorists to use the threat of violence again.

[IronGate]

20. You would prefer a possible blood bath?

This issue, like others, will fade away in time.
It's not a perfect solution, but far better than people dying.

[MohRokTah]

25. You would prefer an even larger blood bath?

You've emboldened these violent terrorists, so now they will only grow and the threats fo violence will become more intense.

By backing down now, you have GUARANTEED a blood bath of epic proportions in the future.

[IronGate]

30. So I'll put you in the catagory of wanting people from both sides to lose their lives.

Nice position you take there sparky.

[MohRokTah]

33. Argumentum non sequitur. eom

[treestar]

184. Waco and Ruby Ridge

What is your opinion of those?

Handling these things is not simple.

[MohRokTah]

190. I side with the Feds wrt Waco

Ruby Ridge was mishandled.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

52. So the lesson is: give liberals a beatdown but fear wingnuts

Nice dude. Some of you have been Obamafied: twist liberal arms to shake hands with wingnuts. What a fucking clusterfuck thought process.









https://www.google.com/search?q=2012+nato+summit+police+chicago&tbm=isch&cad=h

[Rex]

17. Yeah an 'armed mob' was going to show up to defend this guys illegal activity

and they backed down to the threat. Pretty sure that is what I read.

[IronGate]

19. You prefer a possible blood bath?

This issue, like others, will fade away in time.
It's not a perfect solution, but far better than people dying.

[superpatriotman]

21. If wrong, I apologize

Is it not illegal to take up arms against Federal employees?

[IronGate]

26. Yes it is.

This deal is far preferable to what could happen if the BLM decided to confront the "militia".

The outcome could have very tragic results with loss of life on both sides.
Is this what we want?

[superpatriotman]

29. No

I prefer the law to be applied to all equally

[truedelphi]

191. If the law were to be applied equally to all,

Do you think that the ranchers would be so angry?

Think of all the many semi-legal and "totally legal" insider deals that happen.

Think of all the times local politicians get special favors, so their nephew or niece's timber company can come in and rape the forests. Or mine the deserts.

Look at Nestle Inc legally stealing our water, from our public waterways so they can sell it back to us at $ 1.99 a pop.

[MohRokTah]

34. So I'll put down as you supporting the person with the most guns and worst threats winning.

See how two can play the same strawman game?

[IronGate]

49. No, you can put me down as the person who doesn't want to see any loss of life

or injuries on both sides.
See how two can play the same strawman game?

[MohRokTah]

53. No, you support a thief with guns getting away with thievery

with nothing but a threat of violence.

You support might makes right.

[JJChambers]

59. Silly

Get a court issued warrant for his arrest for contempt and pick him up in six months when he comes to town for groceries and keep him locked up until the issue is resolved. No fuss, no muss no bloodshed.

[IronGate]

60. You have no idea what I support.

You, on the other hand, support a confrontation that could very well lead to deaths on both sides. Uggg.

[Rex]

22. Nobody said there was going to be a bloodbath...I guess you think the worst of people.

This was failsauce...but you will never see it that way.

[Crunchy Frog]

193. Peace in our time.

You would have gotten on well with Neville Chamberlain.

[IronGate]

200. So can I put you in the column of wanting to see a shootout with the resulting loss of life?

[mercuryblues]

13. bundy

is nothing but a fucking terrorist and should be arrested.

[billh58]

32. Right-wing gun nuts

and military wannabes anxious to "water the tree of Liberty" with a little gubmint blood. Asshats one and all.

[NightWatcher]

35. 20 years? Let em go a few more and deal with it without a Waco moment

There was obviously no urgency if they've been doing it for 20 years.

[cthulu2016]

36. This is a bad error.

[Lancero]

40. Anyone who calls this 'bad'...

Remember WACO?

Neither side backed down during that, and the end result was a wholesale slaughter.

Unlike some people here, I'm glad to see that calmer minds are working to bring a end to this.

[IronGate]

54. We seem to have a some who would prefer a confrontation that could result in possible loss of life

on both sides, me, I prefer the deal brokered by Sheriff Gillespie where it de-escalates the potential violence.

[TroglodyteScholar]

74. I can't really argue against this...

In thinking about Waco... once violence broke out, the facts of how that happened--who fired first or started the fire or whatever--didn't even matter any longer. Each side (feds/supporters of law vs the BD and their anti-govt supporters) blamed the other and continues to do so to this day. It's just an awful, festering scab for everyone.

That said, I do not like the idea of letting these rugged individualist types choose for themselves which laws they follow. It is emboldening.

[Lancero]

132. What emboldened them...

Was the fact that it took the government two decades to act on this.

No matter what we feel about this, I think we can all agree on this - The government should have done something about this years ago.

[TroglodyteScholar]

165. Definitely...

[treestar]

185. Not in the long run

does it really matter is they are "emboldened?" They were only illegally grazing land, not killing people or holding them hostage. Let them feel "emboldened" a couple of days if it saves lives.

[TroglodyteScholar]

201. So where is the line drawn?

In finally taking concrete measures to enforce this law, the federal employees who work on behalf of you, me, and our federal lands were met with armed intimidation.

So let's talk about the long run, then. What's the next brazen, unjustifiable situation that we just let go because someone threatened to get violent?

[socialist_n_TN]

214. These are the same people that equate Democrats with tyranny.........

And now they've got the tyrants on the run. What's to stop them from shooting you since you're a Democrat?

[MohRokTah]

78. I remember WACO. Violent nutcases got violent.

In the end, they set themselves on fire.

It's sorta what violent nutcases do.

[villager]

58. Now, if Occupy all brandished guns, they'd be dead. Double standards much?

Rhetorical question.

[superpatriotman]

64. That's what I was waiting for!

This is a 'teachable moment'.

[Octafish]

112. That's what the FBI memo implies.

FBI Knew of Plot to Execute Occupy Activists but Did Nothing

FBI Document—“(DELETED)” Plots To Kill Occupy Leaders “If Deemed Necessary”

By Dave Lindorff
June 27, 2013 WhoWhatWhy.org

Would you be shocked to learn that the FBI apparently knew that some organization, perhaps even a law enforcement agency or private security outfit, had contingency plans to assassinate peaceful protestors in a major American city — and did nothing to intervene?

Would you be surprised to learn that this intelligence comes not from a shadowy whistle-blower but from the FBI itself – specifically, from a document obtained from Houston FBI office last December, as part of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed by the Washington, DC-based Partnership for Civil Justice Fund?

To repeat: this comes from the FBI itself. The question, then, is: What did the FBI do about it?

The Plot

Remember the Occupy Movement? The peaceful crowds that camped out in the center of a number of cities in the fall of 2011, calling for some recognition by local, state and federal authorities that our democratic system was out of whack, controlled by corporate interests, and in need of immediate repair?

That movement swept the US beginning in mid-September 2011. When, in early October, the movement came to Houston, Texas, law enforcement officials and the city’s banking and oil industry executives freaked out perhaps even more so than they did in some other cities. The push-back took the form of violent assaults by police on Occupy activists, federal and local surveillance of people seen as organizers, infiltration by police provocateurs—and, as crazy as it sounds, some kind of plot to assassinate the “leaders” of this non-violent and leaderless movement.

CONTINUED...

http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-document-deleted-plots-to-kill-occupy-leaders-if-deemed-necessary/

If you're a peaceful protester, it's: Secret Police. Secret Spying. Secret Laws. Secret Detentions. Secret Executions. Unless you're a heavily armed right-wing nutcase.

Anyone see a pattern, here?

[villager]

218. The problem, of course, is that the "police" are also heavily armed, rightwing nutcases

Very little separates them, philosophically, from the militias and welfare ranchers on public land.

Now, if those were "eco hippies" out there, protesting say, the overgrazing -- and aforementioned welfare ranching -- on public lands...

[ZombieHorde]

65. I am happy the potentially violent situation is being desculated.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with trying alternative methods.

[MohRokTah]

67. Alternatives to the roundup were tried.

That's why this has been an ongoing issue for more than two decades.

[ZombieHorde]

72. In my opinion,

the situation isn't urgent enough to warrant the high risk of bloodshed.

[MohRokTah]

82. The moment people showed up armed and threatening violence

the federal government could not back down without emboldening every last anti-government nutbag in the country.

Violence from wingnut terrorists will only increase now because they know that the federal government will back down from the mere THREAT of violence.

[IronGate]

94. Oh bullsheet.

The Govt. ascertained that this wasn't worth the potential loss of life over some cattle grazing on public lands and went with the deal that Sheriff Gillespie brokered.

You seem to want a violent confrontation with the possible loss of life on both sides.
Why is that?

[MohRokTah]

99. REally?

Well, now that he's been emboldened and he still ahs his armed mob in place, Bundy has DEMANDED the BLM be disarmed and all weapons be brought to him. So your argument fails to hold water.

[IronGate]

101. Yeah?

Who has said that he demanded that? Sheriff Gillespie? Do you have a link to who said he made that demand?
You on the other hand want an armed confrontation and all that goes with it.
Why are you pushing so hard for that?

[MohRokTah]

102. I provided the link

This emboldened the terrorists.

As it always would have.

[IronGate]

105. All you provided was a link that he allegedly said that,

not who was reporting that those were his words.
Where did it come from? Sheriff Gillespie's office? BLM employees? A reporter that interviewed him? Where?

But, again, why are you pushing so hard for an armed confrontation which can result in the potential loss of life on both sides?
Isn't this the better course to de-esclate the situation and deal with it when tensions aren't so high?

[MohRokTah]

106. Bye

It's obvious we cannot talk.

[IronGate]

111. No, it's obvious you can't provide a link

and you question those that prefer a peaceful solution to this explosive situation.

Let me ask again, why are you pushing so hard for an armed confrontation with these militia assholes with the potential of deaths on both sides?
I can't figure out your angle to this.

[hatrack]

172. And here is the link yet again

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/bundy-blm-reach-deal-stop-cattle-roundup

Perhaps you could try clicking on it and reading the information contained therein.

[IronGate]

176. I've read it over and over and nowhere does it say who provided that.

Who is the person that said Cliven demanded it? Was it Sheriff Gillespie? One of the BLM employees? The reporter? Who?
There is nothing in the article on who the source is of Cliven demanding that.

[hatrack]

171. Here is the link again

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/bundy-blm-reach-deal-stop-cattle-roundup

[ballyhoo]

124. No, the Federal Government didn't want the public to find out

about the deal to turn that land into a Solar Farm by the Chinese at their expense. Now, ostensibly, BLM is turning the land back over to the Public. So far I have only one confirmation of this. Of course, your point may well be part of it, but with all the America drone attacks where children were killed, I wonder how much of a consideration that really was. Having said that, were this 20 years ago, I would have agreed with you right away. Just not now--

[superpatriotman]

147. Feel free to post your 'comfirmation'

to the link between Bundy Ranch/Harry Reid/China/Solar Farms

The only links I can find would be laughed off DU in a hot minute.

[ballyhoo]

160. I know that. I've already confirmed most

of it, except the exact location of the land. If you find a credible link, please share. Was the solar farm 200 miles North of the Bundy graze as I have heard? Be nice if there was a link to a contract maker in the now broken solar agreement. Oh, well. In an hour or so it will all be clamped except for foreign news. Then the story will be spun. I'm going to keep looking.

[maddezmom]

157. That deal is dead

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/jun/14/company-dumps-big-laughlin-solar-project-says-mark/

And the gov't did not hide a thing....just google the players.

[ballyhoo]

163. I know, but what was the proximate

cause of the death and what did it have to do with the Park and the errant rancher.

[maddezmom]

164. Did you read the link? It could not get the required funding.

[ballyhoo]

168. I read the link, but this link could have

been fabricated to cover up real cause. Look at the dates. Awfully close. You don't think ENN could have heard a local rancher was making waves and decided these waves might impact the sale of produced energy? Something fishy here. Still dding it. But thanks for the link.

[maddezmom]

170. Fabricated? Oh dear....

I guess your mind is made up, no use in trying to bring facts and legit links into the discussion.

[superpatriotman]

173. It's like an infowar!

in a free republic

[maddezmom]

174. LOL!

Well done!

[ballyhoo]

180. Sorry, I no longer believe in coincidences, particularly

when it involves the Chinese and a chance for the to get some partially-paid for land at a fraction of the cost and then build energy-producing property with decades long leases. I was Regional Controller for an energy company that did extensive leasing in Alaska mainly. This all smelled funny to me, but your sarcasm and related icon are noted. Thank you for your time.

[maddezmom]

186. So just so I am clear... You think the Las Vegas Sun story is fabricated and they are in on it?

[ballyhoo]

192. Las Vegas Sun fabricate a story?....

Oh, of course not....

[maddezmom]

194. So who did the fabricating? Or better stated, who do you think is in on the "coincidence"?

The Gov't, Reid's son, the BLM? Not sure where you are going with this?

[ballyhoo]

197. The government; namely, BLM, aided and abetted

by the Chinese government. I don't think Obama had anything to do with this. Anyway, it's all been settled now and Bundy came out looking like a Republican hero. I'm glad a bunch of people didn't get killed. I'll know more when I talk to people in Vegas, where we had a vacation home for a few years long ago. Also, I'll see what the foreign news say tonight.

[ZombieHorde]

120. This may embolden some people in the future,

but right now violence is actually being reduced.

If violence and threats of violence is all we have, then maybe we need something new.

[MohRokTah]

121. No, violence is not actually being reduced in this instance.

In fact, after the BLM backed down the threat of violence GREW and local SWAT forces had to be moved in, escalating the threat of violence even more.

Backing down from terrorists DOES NOT WORK!

[ZombieHorde]

129. Maybe. No one has been killed so far.

I think previous violent conflicts with terrorists shows us that violence doesn't work. We've killing terrorists for a long time now, and we're still dealing with them.

[MohRokTah]

130. And nobody was going to get killed unless criminals started getting violent before the BLM caved.

When somebody is hell bent on killing, your only choice is to kill them first.

[ZombieHorde]

134. This was just posted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014778681

BREAKING NEWS: Major development in Bunkerville cattle battle

LAS VEGAS -- A major development is percolating in the showdown at the Bundy ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada -- a possible deal is in the works. It's an 8 News Now exclusive.

The I-Team has learned that a tentative deal has been brokered by Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie to de-escalate the tense standoff between rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters and the Bureau of Land Management.

Sources tell the I-Team that Sheriff Gillespie has negotiated a potential agreement in which the BLM would halt its roundup of Bundy's cattle and withdraw its employees from the Gold Butte area.

The BLM wants to proceed with the sale of the cattle already gathered during the roundup but is reportedly willing to share the revenue from the sale with Bundy.

How do you feel about this situation?

[MohRokTah]

135. Worst possible thing the BLM could have done.

The BLM manager who negotiated this should be immediately fired.

[ZombieHorde]

140. Just so I'm clear,

are you saying a gun fight would have been a better option than this deal?

[maddezmom]

149. Seems like some sort of performance art to me

[IronGate]

139. For some reason, he seems to want an armed confrontation with the possible loss of life

on both sides.
IMO, the BLM made the correct decision to de-escalate the situation and let cooler heads prevail.

I'm glad that poster isn't in charge of the BLM. (shudders)

[ZombieHorde]

143. I also support the nonviolent solution.

I hate how violent people are. I hate the violence in my own "heart." I'm not a pacifist, but I really think violence should be a last resort.

[IronGate]

146. +1000.

[Nye Bevan]

142. Yeah, I don't know what's up with those who want to storm in with all guns blazing.

Do these folks think Waco was a success?

[ZombieHorde]

150. I don't know. That is an interesting question.

They may not see a connection between this ranch situation and Waco.

[Nye Bevan]

152. I kind of like it when these situations are dialed down as opposed to escalated.

Just my opinion.

[ZombieHorde]

153. Yeah. I hope many of us do. nt

[IronGate]

155. Mine too.

I can't figure out why that one poster is so gung ho for an armed confrontation.

[Vashta Nerada]

76. It shows that armed idiots can get away with whatever they want if there's a number of them.

[tularetom]

86. In a "deal" there is a benefit to both sides

The benefit to Bundy, it seems, is that he continues to be allowed to break the law.

The benefit to the protestors is that they get to gloat about exercising their 2nd amendment rights to back down the gubmint.

I'm not seeing a clear cut benefit to the BLM or their employers, the US taxpayer.

This is not a "deal", it appears to be an abject surrender to the threat of violence.

[superpatriotman]

87. SPLC - Hatewatch take on the situation:

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/11/right-wing-media-eagerly-promote-cliven-bundy-and-his-anti-federal-faceoff/

snip

...The same cannot be said for right-wing media outlets, led by Fox News, which have steadily characterized the Bundy family as heroic patriots standing up to a tyrannical government. A number of far-right pundits have even been urging people to go to the scene in Clark County to make their presence known.

Fox’s Sean Hannity led the parade of Bundy boosters on Fox, featuring a segment on Tuesday night that included an interview with Bundy and a narrative that presented his claims at face value. Indeed, Hannity himself repeated Bundy’s favorite question: “Why do they own all that land?” (Hannity reportedly plans to devote an entire show to the situation on Monday.)

more at link

Fox News - Emboldening the paranoid since 1996

[MohRokTah]

91. Cliven Bundy DEMANDS BLM employees be disarmed and guns brought to him

This is what comes of emboldening rightwing thug terrorists.

[Takket]

98. so if i don't like the laws i just get a militia together to repel law enforcement

got it......... i'm kind of sick of stopping at red lights. i'll just drive through them all with a militia now.

seriously, the government is right to de-escalate the situation. no reason to force the issue now. this criminal will be dealt with in time but these nutcases will turn this into a bloodbath if pushed. but in the long run, you CAN'T just let people get away with breakling laws and court orders they don't like

[HooptieWagon]

103. The moral of the story....

...if OWS had armed themselves, perhaps they wouldn't have been arrested for trespassing either.
When laws are selectively enforced, we are no longer a nation of laws, but a nation of "might makes right".

[rrneck]

104. This might be a stupid question but

If it was illegal for Bundy to graze cattle on public land why were they arresting the cattle?

[IronGate]

107. You mean Cliven Bundy?

Gillespie is the Sheriff of the LVMPD.

[rrneck]

117. Ah. Thanks. I edited. ntt

[MohRokTah]

109. Bundy, Gillespie is the local sheriff.

They are taking the cattle to auction off in order to collect the 20 years of unpaid grazing fees (about $1 million).

[rrneck]

114. Thanks! I didnt mean for it to be that stupid.

[Dawson Leery]

108. Get in bed with Rand Paul/Ted Cruz, the entire country will be run

by right wing terrorist "militias" such as this.

Remember the Montana "Freemen" who stole property from their neighbors? You could be the next one to lose your property to these evil thugs.

[BlindTiresias]

116. Hahaha

Come on get real, corporate power would never allow that kind of rabble to seize control. There is some strong grounds for an argument similar to the one you are making based on current right wing trajectory and corporate influence but you are way off the mark here.

[superpatriotman]

126. Here:

http://respriv.org/showdown-bundy-ranch/

Americans for Prosperity (AFP), the conservative non-profit group, was founded by and has been largely funded by billionaires Charles and David Koch. The Center for Media and Democracy reported that in its previous incarnation as Citizens for a Sound Economy, AFP received $12 million of its $18 million in funding from the Koch Family Foundation.

Two of its local affiliates, Americans for Prosperity Nevada and Americans for Prosperity Colorado, have become active boosters of Bundy’s actions.

AFP Nevada’s Facebook page posted a graphic attacking the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) for spending “one million dollars” to enforce the court order to round up Bundy’s cattle on federal land. Another photo attacked the Bureau for creating a designated “First Amendment Area” for protesters to gather in near the property.

Corporate hands are all over the 'states rights' and 'evil government' movements

[bluestateguy]

113. Obama has never been known to want confrontation

Every once in awhile he will have balls (the debt ceiling in 2013), but he still thinks that he can have a nice polite conversation with angry white men and make them like him.

[MohRokTah]

128. Get real, Obama didn't have anything to do with this.

This was some low level BLM manager's decision. It didn't get any higher than that.

[underpants]

118. Mob rule - Fox News and RW radio incited this

[superpatriotman]

122. Yes they did

And they have achieved victory!

They have looked into the face of tyranny and, together, defeated the scary black Kenyan socialist dictator and his thugs. (sarcasm intended)

[MohRokTah]

123. Now they have a taste of real power.

Power like rightwing media had in Rwanda.

[Crunchy Frog]

119. Bad move signifying a further deterioration in the rule of law.

If you threaten the government with guns, you can do whatever the fuck you want.

I want to live in a different country.

[BlindTiresias]

136. Yep

I am seriously debating leaving the country, I don't want to stay for the inevitable purges.

[MineralMan]

138. Oh, FFS...

Really? Over an incident in the Nevada desert that's still ongoing?

Well, bye, then...

[BlindTiresias]

156. No you misunderstand

Not over the incident but the trajectory that this incident points to. You really need to stop engaging in reductive reasoning, MineralMan.

[Nye Bevan]

133. Lots of DUers thirsting for a bloody battle in this thread.

Reminds me of "if we let Putin get away with this, whatever will he do next?"

[MohRokTah]

137. Because negotiating with terrorists works.

[IronGate]

141. Because killing works, right?

[Nye Bevan]

144. So we definitely need to send troops to the Ukraine. Right?

Ever hear of discretion being the better part of valor?

[maddezmom]

148. Hmmm, is this some sort of performance art?

You seem really worked up, almost like one of the Bundy clan.

[treestar]

189. It could. It is done often.

Why is that inherently wrong? It is to get out of the immediate dangerous situation. It doesn't mean they aren't going to be charged with crimes.

Googling "hostage negotiations" turns up several.

[Dems to Win]

169. The BLM is actually releasing the cows they've already rounded up. What a farce

So infuriating I felt it deserved another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014778829

[Warpy]

182. Just wait for the paunchy oafs with Big Ugly Guns to go home

and they'll continue the roundup, at least I hope they will, with Bundy and his creepy family cooling their heels in jug.

Not only is Bundy the worst kind of scofflaw, his cattle will wreck huge amounts of land stressed by extreme drought.

It's sad to see any farmer or rancher hurt but that bastard brought it on himself by ripping off the US public. Enough of his cattle should be sold to settle his debt to us and breeding stock returned to him.

[ballyhoo]

188. What?

The Sheriff of Clark Country said not only will the cattle be released to Bundy, but the Park will be returned for public use, which, presumably, means Bundy can continue grazing there.


http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/blm-release-cattle-caught-bunkerville-roundup

[jwirr]

202. If I am not mistaken they released the 100 cows that were in a correl but the feds have already

moved 400 cows and still have them. They will be selling them for the back rent. So the old coot who is stealing from us is not getting away totally free.

[Exposethefrauds]

204. If Mr. Bundy were say black and numbers of armed black males were coming

and threating to come to his defense; would the outcome have been the same?

[malaise]

205. Bundy will lose in the end

Let him celebrate for now

[ThoughtCriminal]

206. Definitely

He has already lost in court. I doubt he can sell the cattle without the proceeds getting immediately seized. If he tries to do it under the table (assuming he can find a buyer who is willing to risk buying stolen property since they no longer belong to him) he is facing tax fraud. In the long run, this pathetic demonstration will ruin him and his family.

He'll get sympathy from Fox and the militia nut crowd who absolutely want a violent confrontation, but the non-violent approach makes him useless to them and he will be forgotten and broke.

[MohRokTah]

207. Meanwhile, wingnuts are openly plotting how next to use the armed terrorist card.

Seriously, takes about ten minutes to see every wingnut site on the internet are trying to figure out how next to use this tactic.

Things are going to escalate because of this.

[ThoughtCriminal]

208. Violence if the last refuge of the incompetent

Unless they succeed in getting a violent confrontation, they end up losing. Nothing would frustrate them more. A strategy of non-confrontation and legal remedies will work and drive them crazy.

Meanwhile, the port-o-potty business will be the primary winner in the short run until they get tired of showing up for nothing.

[MohRokTah]

209. They consider this a win

And to be honest, it was a huge win for the rightwing armed terrorist tactic.

[ThoughtCriminal]

210. They always do

Then they lose.

[MohRokTah]

211. Tell me that after they show up at a Planned Parenthood armed to the teeth.

Tell me that after they show up at a town meeting armed to the teeth.

Tell me that after they are finally emboldened enough to march on DC armed to the teeth.

[ThoughtCriminal]

212. They have been doing all those things for years

Success on their part depends entirely on a violent response. Non-violent, passive resistance works for governments too.

[MohRokTah]

213. REally?

Gotta link to the last time 300 militia terrorists showed up armed to the teeth at a protest against Planned Parenthood?

I'll wait with bated breath.

[ThoughtCriminal]

215. If they do, their cause would suffer a huge loss

Certainly you must know there have been protests and violence, but if an armed mob of that size showed up, the backlash would cost far more than they can possibly hope to gain.

What you are not recognizing is that giving them the confrontation they want IS giving in to them. They really don't give a shit about the cows or Bundy. During the civil rights movement of the early 60's, the segregationists lost, largely because they were the one's who resorted to violence and hate.



Terrorism is a doctrine for failure. That they are going down that road is evidence that they are losers. It does not mean that we cannot confront it, but non-violent legal means will destroy it far more effectively than armed standoffs.

[sendero]

221. Anyone that thinks..

... this is over is a moron. This was a tactical retreat, nothing more, nothing less.

[flying rabbit]

222. Bundy, or one of his "patriot" sons

is going to run for office. Bet on it.

[Hugin]

223. This has emboldened them. Now they are calling for similar actions in 4 other states.

De-escalation? I think not.

Welcome to Somalia.