Would the BLM use a show of force in a Fracking or Oil lease dispute?

[Jesus Malverde]

My sense is the would pursue remedies other than an armed confrontation. Not sure why cows bring out the cowboy mentality here.

[Niceguy1]

1. the blm has a spotty

History and isnt always fair.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. No, but I'd reckon that if a land owner declined a drilling lease the government would use force

on behalf of the drillers. They already have a precedent of sorts: Kelo v New London.

[Jesus Malverde]

4. Yikes..

Amazing how some commodities are special.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. Cattle ranches don't issue dividend-paying stocks, corporations do.

That's all you need to know about which side the government will take.

[Jesus Malverde]

13. So Bundy should have partnered up with an east coast hedge fund and sold his cattle futures

to goldman sacs. I see where you are going.

Something like "too big to fail" insurance.

[nationalize the fed]

3. Well isn't that a good question

If it was a R doing it there would be more doubt.

[ancianita]

5. Get this straight.The BLM is a bunch of forestry and land people who only carry a gun to fight off

wild predators -- animals. They do fire prevention and wildlife preservation. You all are making them out to be some kind of armed security force when they're not.

I repeat: The BLM is NOT an armed security force.

They take people to court. That's it. It's up to the state and federal law enforcement, not the BLM, to enforce court orders. http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

[Jesus Malverde]

6. I saw attack dogs and Tazers and First Ammendment Zones.

Was that another federal branch, who did they send in?

[ancianita]

7. Who is the "they" you're referring to? Were you there? Does a court have enforcement power?

[Jesus Malverde]

9. I am under the impression the guys with the Tazers and attack dogs are BLM

Do you have information otherwise?

[ancianita]

15. Should you think that "federal agents" means BLM people? The guys who do the forestry are not the

enforcement guys. That's what's clear from this video. These guys are enforcing a court order against a milionaire cattle rancher who thinks he can push BLM people around.

Spare me the sympathy arguments for this whiny, 'entitled' public lands trespasser.

[Jesus Malverde]

20. They are wearing BLM uniforms and driving BLM trucks.

Are they not BLM. You said they were not. I gave you video.

The issue is how does the BLM work with the petroleum industry that works extensively on BLM land?

It's a mental exercise to show the absurdity of this situation. Attack dogs and Tazers...

[ancianita]

22. I hear you. Point taken. One arm of a department does not define that entire department, however.

BLM has some law enforcement muscle, but they shouldn't be equated with security forces that have that sole function.

I'm not a lawyer. But above and below ground land use laws are probably different. Extending grazing rights to ranchers probably doesn't follow the same legal process that's used with the petroleum industry, since no one in the country who owns land owns the mineral rights to that land. I'm guessing here, but petroleum industry's use of BLM land probably goes through state government arrangements. The public is soon to get more of this info, I'm sure.

[Jesus Malverde]

24. It's an interesting situation.

I think there might be some "personal" issues going on in the application of the law. A sort of "we'll show you" from both sides.

Over the years, we've seen a sort of militarization of federal enforcement and local law enforcement as well.

The treatment of the Rainbow family at their annual gathering by forest service rangers comes to mind.

[politicman]

8. try out an armed occupying of public land in cities and see if you get away with it

I suggest all you people supporting 'peaceful resolution' to armed militia occupying federal land, go out and try it yourselves.

Go out and occupy the road in front of your house, bring along 200 mates armed with guns and demand that you be allowed to do what ever you want to on public roads.

Lets see how long you last in that situation. lets see if the federal government agrees to let you do what ever you wish on the road simply because you are armed.

[Jesus Malverde]

10. The oil dispute is not in front of my house, it's on BLM land.

What do you think the BLM would do to an oil/fracking company?

[politicman]

18. if they got a court order, i am sure the company would comply

If they wanted to pursue the matter, they would take it to court and get a court order that orders the oil company to pack up and leave the land.

After that I am confident that the oil company would comply, thus no need for armed stand off.

But instead of this cattle rancher complying with a court order, his mates come with guns and threaten to use force so they don't have to comply with the court order.

[Jesus Malverde]

21. Really...oil companies complying with federal regulations...

Time and time again they violate them with impunity.

Fracking and oil exploration is a dirty dirty business.

[politicman]

26. this guy has had the same freedom as fracking companies, so dont use that as an argument

I am not arguing that they don't violate laws, they do.

So do individuals, they violate laws as well.


The point I am making is that if the government DECIDES to get a court order against a fracking company then that company would not pull out guns and demand that they be allowed to frack.

Don't try and compare the treatment this cattle rancher has received with the treatment fracking companies get because this rancher had 2 decades where he illegally grazed public land without paying for it.

Even more, the government didn't just enforce the original law, they went to court and got an order to enforce the law, and he still wont comply.

So yeah, oil and fracking companies would break the law sure, but they would not threaten with force to be able to keep breaking the law if the law was trying to be enforced.

[Hoyt]

12. Probably, if the fracking company called in armed racist militia groups to bully law enforcement.

[Jesus Malverde]

16. Hey Hoyt

Find me a case where the BLM put the hammer down on an oil/fracking company.

Much less tried to confiscate their equipment. I'll find you plenty of cases where oil/fracking company have polluted, underpaid for leases and damaged BLM land.

I'm thinking this could be apples and oranges cause one is much more tasty than the other.

[Hoyt]

19. Didn't say the are good, but armed racist militias aren't either. Wouldn't you agree?

[Jesus Malverde]

28. Agreed..nt

[villager]

14. The government would use force against anyone *protesting* Fracking or Oil leases on public lands

If those protesters were armed, they'd be dead.

[ancianita]

17. So you're claiming that 'militias' are going to be the new corporate 'proxy' warriors against

the feds in their attempt to take over the public's national assets? And then we're going to be sympathetic toward these dupes of profit-driven corporate power in the name of 2A?

I think we need to rethink trespass laws around here.

[BlindTiresias]

23. YES

This was EXPLICITLY outlined in ancap circles as a way of using corporate power and force of arms to break federal power. It is technically not violating the non-aggression principle if the government shoots first against people defending natural law.

[ancianita]

25. Goddammit this is sickening. Sickening. We'll never get to the bottom of which agents are involved,

unless we get some legal teams in on this horrible skirmish-filled future.

The hit men model from South America is coming home to roost.

[villager]

27. I'm not claiming that, but it's an interesting thesis

What I was saying is that armed protesters perceived to be "left wing" would be shot or met with some other kind of violence, and certainly arrested, rather than "backed off" from.

On the other hand, the idea of using armed militia 2A thugs to dramatize that public lands belongs not to the public but some other "us" -- in this case, welfare ranchers (and eventually welfare queen energy companies) -- would probably be an effective media manipulation by society's real owners.