General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUkraine, Putin, and the West
For the few here who may want toread a thoughtful article on the Ukrainian situation.
In November of last year, a spirited protest took place in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv after the countrys president, Viktor Yanukovych, declined at the last minute to sign an association agreement with the European Union. The agreement would have been a very small first step toward a still hazy, far-off EU membership, but it had major cultural and symbolic significance, and its sudden rejection, under clear pressure from Russia, brought people to the streets.
The initial protest, on central Maidan Nezalezhnosti, Independence Square, has since been estimated at around a thousand peoplehardly impressive, especially in a country where since independence the citizenry has been willing to take to the streets. The difference this time was the surprising ham-handedness of the authorities, who first ignored the protest, then tried violently to disperse it. This, to many people whod been growing weary of a corrupt and incompetent regime that had imprisoned political opponents and enriched itself and its friends while the countrys economy stagnated, was too much, and they too came out into the streets.
The massive, sustained, courageous protests that followed were anomalous for the post-Soviet space in that they did not revolve around rigged elections, as did the successful 2003 and 2004 protests in Georgia and Ukraine (the Rose and Orange Revolutions, respectively), as well as the large, ultimately unsuccessful protests in Moldova in 2009 and Moscow in December 2011. They were also anomalous in that Yanukovych, bad as he was, was a typical post-Soviet leader: a man whod used his ties to the old nomenklatura and the rising criminal-capitalist class to consolidate power, often through the use of violence. Yanukovych would have been very much at home as a regional governor in Russian Krasnoyarsk or Irkutsk. And yet here were people, formerly docile and frightened and cowed, out in the streets against him.
In the American press, the protests were initially greeted as pro-Westernas were the earlier Georgian and Ukrainian protests, and protests in Lebanon, Iran, and Egypt. The protesters, the story went, were people who wished to pull Ukraine into a 21st-century European future, rather than back toward a 20th-century Soviet past. Were not saying we saw it personally, but if no one wrote an exuberant article about the use of social media on Maidan, we will eat our laptop.
http://nplusonemag.com/ukraine-putin-and-the-west
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)I read some of Snyder's stuff at the NY Review, and his columns seemed to minimize the presence of the right to an extent that was just too much. Kind of a mirror image of the Russian view that it was all nothing but fascists.
TomClash
(11,344 posts)This seems to weed through all the propaganda and put the conflict in a historical, political perspective.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)But how to proceed now? Events are moving quickly in eastern Ukraine. I certainly don't have any answers.
TomClash
(11,344 posts)Plant part of the Sixth Fleet at the mouth of the Bosphorus Straits, part of it at a Black Sea port of call, like Tallin. Send the 82d for "exercises" in Lublin. He'll get the message.
Then at the same time respectfully invite Putin to be his guest at a summit in New York or meet in Minsk if Putin wants to stay close to home.
It's a good way to build a relationship with a man like Putin.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Then what would we do?
TomClash
(11,344 posts)It's an irrational choice. The ramifications are widespread.
If he does, at the very least we can provide all sorts of support to Kiev.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)It will be interesting to read what comes out, particularly about Merkel.
I don't think that anything will happen militarily unless Merkel is willing to go along with it, and she is hesitant for economic reasons, at least.
Don't get me wrong. I am appalled at Putin's activities in Ukraine and elsewhere, but we haven't recovered from Iraq and we're still in Afghanistan. I don't think that there's much stomach for what you propose at this time, with the exception for the stomach of John McCain.,
TomClash
(11,344 posts)Another byproduct of eight Bush-Cheney years.
If its true that russia subsidizes the Ukraine with gas, etc, then there is little to support. They are merely biting the hand that feeds them. I read that Russia itself didnt even like Yanukovych. If you look into other eastern nations like Romania that joined the EU, many of them are sick of it. Even Turkey doesnt even want in, and the there are other European nations such as the UK that dont want to be part of this EU anymore either. Its hard to understand why we are so worried about the Ukraine joining.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)As I've posted before, this is an old old strategy: if you have a big, domineering neighbor, you ally with someone strong outside your region so as to maintain your own independence.
In the old days, Scotland allied with France vs England, Portugal allied with the UK vs Spain, and of course Cuba did it with the USSR vs the US.
It's very effective. Membership in the EU is not in the cards for a long while if ever anyway for Ukraine, but trying to be as independent as they can from Russia isn't exactly an unreasonable strategy for them.