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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNevada Ranch Stand-Off Was One Big Promo for Rustic Right-Wing Millionaires
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/nevada-ranch-stand-was-one-big-promo-right-wing-millionairesNow that the Bureau of Land Management has started returning millionaire rancher Cliven Bundys cows, some in the media are saying that the so-called Nevada range war is over.
But theyre wrong.
As Senator Harry Reid pointed out yesterday, theres still a long way to go before this thing is settled.
Harry Reid is right.
As long as millionaire Cliven Bundy gets to graze his cattle on public land for free, in contempt of three court orders and in violation of the law, this is not over.
Bundy and the suckers he brought in from the militia movement think theyve won a huge victory against federal tyranny, and will only be more aggressive about breaking the law in the future. As Robert Sands, one of the Oath Keeper militiamen who joined up with the Bundys, told USA Today, We need to start telling people this could possibly be the spark of the next American Revolution."
Thats rightthe next American Revolution!
***i know that grazing on federal land is amazingly cheap -- a dollar something per head grazing.
wercal
(1,370 posts)"***i know that grazing on federal land is amazingly cheap -- a dollar something per head grazing"
To me, $1.35 seems incredibly cheap. Less than the cost of a small bale of hay per month. A rancher who owned the land would probably pay more in taxes. Apparently it was $1.86 in 1993, when he stopped paying (its recalculated every year)...but that's still cheap. By comparison, this link claims private grazing land leases at a low end of $9:
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/16/the-taxpayers-shouldnt-have-to-pay-for-grazing-either/
But I think its about more than the grazing fee. Bundy has also not reduced his herd, as required by the BLM in 1993. Bundy claims that it was a 90% reduction, capping the herd at 150...meaning a drop from 1,500 to 150. But somewhere else I read that he had 900 cattle to start with...so maybe he was forced to drop from 900 to 150. This was to preserve to tortoise that everyone talks about...and generally prevent over grazing.
If it was just the grazing fee...I don't think we would have ever heard of Clive Bundy. Its the herd reduction that tripped his trigger.
I have no idea if he's a millionaire or not - but for most of us, such a reduction in our livelihood would be devastating. And apparently it has been for many of his fellow ranchers who have quit the business. Such a reduction usually doesn't mean a rancher like Bundy tightens his belt - it usually means he sells his herd and retires to Florida.
So the question at hand is - how should these federal lands be used? Should it continue to ranched? At a depressed price, or increased to market rate? Or should the land be de facto wildlife sanctuaries, once the ranchers move out? Now ranchers aren't the only ones who use federal lands at discounted rates - all sorts of mining for gold and coal, oil extraction, etc. happens on federal lands, with leases below market rate. So they aren't unique.
And I guess the next question is - why does the government own all this land? 86% of Nevada is federally owned. The map below blows my mind. What was different about the western states, when they entered the union? For many of the Midwestern states, when they were territories, land was given away to settlers. But for reasons I don't know, that practice stopped with the western states....putting settlers there in a perpetual renter status. Should the federal government own a third of the country? Or should it start selling it off? I don't know.
In the end...its the end for Bundy - he's as good as gone. But will anybody else ever graze his pseudo lease area again? Should anyone else ever graze it? Or is cattle ranching in the west slowly fading away?
For some reason, maybe I've seen too many western movies, I'd like to see it stay around. And if ranchers like Bundy are getting a free ride (or close to free), why not have them purchase the land, and start paying state and local taxes on it?
Paladin
(28,254 posts)What a concept, right?
wercal
(1,370 posts)So Bundy is the exception, not the rule.
But I don't really care about Bundy. He's lost in court on several occasions, and he's racked up enormous fines. He's toast.
But your term "freeloading ranchers" is a loaded term. Obviously you think the ranchers aren't paying enough.
Is your anger reserved only for ranchers? Or does it apply equally to everybody else who leases federal lands?
And what about federal lands. Bundy is grazing 750,000 acres, and currently limited to 150 cattle at $1.35 a month. In a hundred years, the per acre fees on that land would be $0.32 an acre. Could the federal government sell that land today for more than $0.32 and acre? I bet they could. And that land would hit the tax roles...and there wouldn't be any more "freeloading ranchers".
newfie11
(8,159 posts)I would hate to see the BLM lands sold. It allows us to see the beauty without subdivisions.
Here in the Black Hills we have much land controlled by the forest service and ranchers pay grazing permits which allows them to graze cattle from May-October.
The ranchers I know are happy with it and getting a grazing permit is cherished as there is a limited amount.
This guy is a crook and sounds like he's over grazing the land he's not paying to use. His type feels he doesn't have to follow rules that everyone else does.
wercal
(1,370 posts)Now the ranchers you know are probably paying the same $1.35 a month per head that Bundy is supposed to....which is probably below market rate.
Do you believe they are 'freeloading ranchers' as described by someone on this thread? Or is there any benefit to the public in having the land grazed?
newfie11
(8,159 posts)They are part of society that has laws. Without laws society would be horrible.
One thing not brought up is the forest service builds ponds, sprays invasive weeds, stops erosion, maintain forest service rds, etc.
As far as fencing, a person can always fence cattle out of their property.
We owned and lived on 22 acres surrounded by forest service NW of Custer SD.
We never had a problem.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)He flagrantly ignored three court orders and dared the government to do something about it. And now, he's won.
Paladin
(28,254 posts)Does it extend only to white guys in cowboy hats, old guys who try their best to look like extras in a John Ford western? Would those militia jerkoffs have turned up if this land were being utilized by a Latino family? Would Sean Hannity be in such hysterics if this land was being worked by a black man?
And no, as a matter of fact I'm not concerned about ranchers paying higher fees on federal lands---even though I know they're getting a very good deal. I'd just like to see Bundy fork over the back payments he's currently on the hook for, 21 years worth, and quit being one of those "takers" that conservatives are always whining about.
"Would those militia jerkoffs have turned up if this land were being utilized by a Latino family?" No
"Would Sean Hannity be in such hysterics if this land was being worked by a black man?" Yes. You have no idea how much mileage he would try to get out of that.
Paladin
(28,254 posts)wercal
(1,370 posts)And I'm pretty sure he's not on the radio anymore.
Only have to see him once to know what he's about.
Paladin
(28,254 posts)idahoblue
(377 posts)Owned by the people of the United States of America, managed by various federal agencies. Those who lease these lands from us are required to follow rules, regulations and pay for use, just like renting pasture or a building from a private citizen. Sometimes the management is not the best, generally more in favor of business. When management is for the good of the land, preserving and protecting for future generations, assholes like Bundy scream and holler.
With the sever drought conditions, Bundy's cows may be finished on this land, anyway.
On a side note, I don't know how he waters his cows on the BLM, but here in the national forest, we the taxpayers build and maintain the stock ponds.
newfie11
(8,159 posts)wercal
(1,370 posts)So I understand Bundy gets a free ride on that. Even if he had been paying his fees, he would be getting ALOT for his money.
So let me scream from the highest mountain top:
I don't give a fuck about Bundy!
But this episode has shined a light on ranching in the west, for me. Judging by how many of Bundy's peers have packed up and left over the last 20 years, its safe to say that it is not feasible to ranch in that part of Nevada, at current herd limits. So this type of ranching will die off.
Ok so what?
Less cattle in the west means more cattle in the Midwest, I guess. Well, let me tell you, a lot of the ranching isn't done by family farms, and some of these operations don't exactly "Preserve and Protect" the land. Something to ponder.
In the 1990's, while in the Army, we would train in southern California...and this tortoise was a concern there too. Half the training area was off limits as a result. So, apparently this tortoise's protected habitat is affecting land from California, all the way to the east side of Nevada. In fact, here's a map of the areas influenced:
Is the tortoise worth it? Do we eliminate family owned ranches (in favor of industrial cattle ranching) because of the tortoise? I think its a valid discussion to be had.
And if you go to this link, which is the source of the map,
http://www.basinandrangewatch.org/Tortoise-Revised-Recovery-Plan.html
you will see that it is an environmental group....questioning adjustments made to the tortoise boundaries to accommodate massive solar energy projects....feeding into Tea Party talking points. But its a fair question - does solar trump the tortoise? But cattle don't?
Again, why not liquidate some of this federal land?
xchrom
(108,903 posts)i've heard nothing from you that says liquidating this land solves any thing other than reduce the over all equity of government.
i'm not ok with that.
that land has value more than just $ and cheap rent for cattle farmers.
the EASIEST most expedient thing to do is for this jerk wad and all other jerk wads like him to PAY THEIR BILLS. problem solved.
wercal
(1,370 posts)I dunno. For some reason, land in Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, etc. was given to settlers, free and clear, when they settled.
But not in the west.
I don't know why. But I think its a valid discussion...why has the federal government held on to so much of the west...when they did not do the same in the Midwest? A discussion. Not name calling. An honest investigation into the reasoning behind each point of view.
And I'm not saying liquidate all of it. But how about reduce it to no more than 49% in each state? That way the people of Nevada can reap the tax rewards for at least 51% of their territory - you know the territory that is their responsibility to police, protect, etc. Shouldn't the people at least be a majority shareholder?
chrisa
(4,524 posts)This isn't over, indeed. If anything, it's shown that showing up with armed friends trumps the law.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)a list of those get away with all sorts of stuff.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Perpetrator tit of the government. The RW has their conspiracy theories going fueled by Hannity and Rush and perhaps if they would have gotten the same story going it may have been believable but they have shot in the air and their sheep are following closely. Bundy is a thug who likes to steal. Gather up his militia, check to see if they are on disability and get them kicked off and charged with fraud. If they can stand and fight on roads then they can work and get off the take.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)He's ignored three court orders and dared the government to do something about it. And teh government backed down. He should be in jail.
Kermitt Gribble
(1,855 posts)that these imbeciles think they have a chance against the weaponry of the US Government.