Any of you drive an all-electric car? I've got a charging question I can't find an answer for.

[Silent3]

I'm toying with the idea of getting an electric Smart car. I can easily find how long it takes to get a full charge, either at 110 volts (14 hours) or 240 volts (6 hours).

But what about the time to get a 50% charge? An 80% charge? With some battery technology, charge time and total charge are not at all a linear relation, with a good bit of total capacity being charged quickly, with diminishing returns the longer you're plugged in, the most time needed to squeeze in the last few percent of charge capacity.

I'm really hoping charging an electric car, particularly the Smart car, works like that, so that, say, an hour plugged in, even at 110 volts, might be enough to get me another 20-30 miles.

I'm still not sure the nominal 76-mile range would be practical for me, especially if I treat the like 55-60 miles to be on the safe side. I'd have to work it out with my wife that we swap cars when I need to do anything on my own more than 30 miles from home.

If a mere hour or so plugged into 110 volts gives me a decent boost, however, then maybe if I'm headed someplace with charging available, I could start to consider 40-50 miles from home as being in-range.

[Fumesucker]

1. The Smart electric has a 17 kWh battery

A 110 V charger is going to be limited to around 1.5 kW by most breakers on regular 110V outlets even if it is capable of putting out more. Divide 17kWh by 1.5kW and you get 11.3 hours for a full charge, topping off lithium cells is a slower process so the 14 hours you quoted sounds right in line with that.

17 kWh for 76 miles works out to 223 watt hours per mile, a 110V charger is unlikely to be more than 1.5 kW so it wouldn't do more than 1500/223 or around 6 miles for every hour of charge and possibly considerably less depending on the charger.

A 220V dedicated charging outlet on the other hand should give you several kW of power so ten or more miles for every hour would be likely.

Once you know the wattage a particular charger delivers on a particular outlet you can divide the numbers out yourself.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Don't own one, but I know a little about batteries...

Looks like the Smart electric uses Li-Ions. These do charge quicker at first, then slow down, in a 2-phase scheme.

LiIons usually charge nicely in three hours, so the longer times for the smart car may mean that its power conversion circuitry can't output enough juice to charge the batteries at full speed. Which would tend to indicate that you won't get a quick charge at first.

All told, my *guess* is that the charging will look closer to linear than to "magic", e.g., 30% capacity in an hour.

But that's just a guess. I could be totally wrong.

[flvegan]

3. The answer is: Don't do it.

"Smart car" in this case being an oxymoron.

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. I'm still wondering how far I'll be able to go on a cold, rainy night.

Headlights, wipers, heater, radio... how far? What i I have to go uphill in the rain on a cold night?

[Fumesucker]

6. Everything but the heater is negligible in terms of range

Unless maybe you have a ground pounder stereo in the thing with massive subs..

Keeping the car warm or cool can have a significant impact on range though. Plus cold or hot batteries tend not to perform at their best either.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. I live at 7,000 ft. There isn't a flat piece of road

Within 40 miles of me.

[defacto7]

5. Actually, Li-ion batteries are a 3 phase charge

based on a voltage regulation rather than the usual amp regulation of NiMh batteries. The question is whether the car manufacturer is using the top phase which is still simple in application but more likely to overheating if not properly applied. Applied incorrectly the top phase is extremely volatile with an out of control temperature burn of about 3000ᵒ. I get the opinion that most car manufacturers are skipping the top phase for a safety buffer but in doing so the battery looses at least 20% of it's power value and the same in useful age which makes it much less environmentally favorable.

The first stage is direct power on at a voltage a little higher than nominal with all the amps it can handle; there is your speed charge. The second stage starts when voltage and heat reach a certain value at which point the amps drop and the voltage is pulsed. The final stage is a variable voltage pulse dependent on heat then drops off at 105%.

Everything depends on where you start and end your charge in the charge cycle and whether there is ambient heat or heat in the charge cycle. If there is heat, the power collected will be less for the amount of time charged. If you start at 20% of capacity (phase 1) you will get a faster charge than if you start at 60% (phase 2) and if you are at 80% and phase 3 is in effect it will vary quite a bit and may be of no value at all without following through to the max charge.

The smart chargers figure all this out along the way and they have to with accuracy. There really is no way but to guess what a certain amount of time on the plug will actually give you in time behind the wheel. With Li-Ions it is not linear except in the first stage so it's hard to know the outcome. But if you want a long Li-Ion battery life, charging to the top is best. Using it in the middle is OK but will wear it out sooner.

[nationalize the fed]

8. Fuel Cell electrics are coming out next year

from Honda and Toyota, Hyundai is offering one any day now. If you live in Orange County CA and lease the Hyundai they will provide all the hydrogen fuel you need for free. For some, that's a free car.

This New Hyundai Car Runs On The Poop Of California Residents, And The Fuel Is Free
http://www.fastcoexist.com/3027144/this-new-hyundai-car-runs-on-the-poop-of-california-residents-and-the-fuel-is-free



Toyota's fuel cell car is supposed to be able to power your house
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-toyota-fcv-fuel-cell-ces-20140106,0,884109.story



Battery EV's lose up to 57% of their range in cold weather. Fuel cell cars don't share that problem
http://cars.chicagotribune.com/fuel-efficient/news/chi-electric-vehicles-lose-range-in-cold

Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars beat out all others in well to wheel greenhouse gas emissions. See for yourself here: (PDF)
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/10001_well_to_wheels_gge_petroleum_use.pdf

Watch Top Gear's James May review the Honda Fuel Cell Clarity
http://topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity



the batteries on a battery only EV will sooner or later have to be replaced. On a tesla, it can be as much as $40,000. So you have to budget for that.

Fuel cells are the future.

[Silent3]

9. Thinking about buying a new car has gotten to be like I used to feel about buying a computer

I'm afraid to buy something now (whenever "now" happens to be) because of what I might miss out on that's just around the corner.

There can be wisdom is waiting just a bit, but since there's always something better coming out tomorrow, you can become paralyzed into doing nothing. Since my current car still runs well enough, I probably will wait a bit longer, but it's nine years old, and I've just paid off the mortgage on my house, so the itch to have a nice, new car is getting stronger.

I live in NH, by the way, so charging stations are rare, that cold weather issue will definitely apply now and then, and I can't imagine how long it will take for even a single hydrogen fueling stating to show up even if I waited for hydrogen fuel cell tech. (Some fuel cells can run on gasoline, which can help simplify the design of a plug-in hybrid, but I haven't looked into how far that tech has been developed yet.)

I usually drive less than 30 miles/day, average around 33. I'm fortunate to work somewhere that's only about six miles from home, so I can go to work and back, then go out in the evening some place local and remain well within even the potentially cold-weather reduced range of the Smart.

As for replacing the battery, when you buy the Smart electric you're essentially pre-paying a ten year battery rental agreement, where Smart guarantees to replace batteries as needed over that time period. (What happens after ten years, no clue, not sure Smart has even decided that yet.)

I'm also considering a Chevy Volt, which is certainly a lot more practical in many ways, but that's supposedly due for a big refresh next year that could make this year's model something I'd be regretting in a few months. I'm also just not thrilled with the looks of the Volt, and the narrow windows make visibility seem constrained when I'm inside one.

On the much less rational side of the decision process, the Smart just seems like a much more fun car than the Volt.

I suppose I could consider leasing rather than buying, so I wouldn't feel like I'd have as high a risk of getting locked into soon-to-be-outdated tech, but leasing doesn't appeal to me (for reasons I won't get into just to avoid going off on a tangent).

[csziggy]

18. Have you thought about a hybrid?

We bought a used Toyota Prius last fall and are extremely happy with it. We're getting nearly 50 mpg with it with mostly driving in town, maybe 10% less when on the highway. We've taken it on several trips and the convenience of not worrying about where to refuel is nice, and still getting great gas mileage is a bonus.

Ours is a 2006 Prius II and I wish we had just a little more space in it. My sister has a Prius V, the larger version, and that will be what I will look for the next time I get a vehicle. This coming week we're taking a short trip and need to carry a little more than the Prius will carry (volume, not weight). We may need to take our Suburban instead of the Prius which will greatly increase the amount we'll have to spend on gas. The lack of space is the one thing I don't like about the Prius but for 95% of what we need a car for the Prius is perfect.

[Silent3]

22. I don't know if you saw my other post, but a plug-in hybrid is now my top choice...

...in particular, I think I'm homing in on getting a Ford Fusion Energi.

My wife has a Prius, but I'm not particularly fond of it myself (visibility issues, for one thing). The plug-in option for the Prius only yields about an 11-mile electric-only range. While the Energi's 20-ish range might not seem like so much more, it's enough to mean most of my daily driving can be covered by pure electric, instead of only half.

What's great is that with some current incentives going on now, the cost different between a Fusion Hybrid (non plug-in) and a Fusion Energi, about $3900, is totally erased, and then some -- and that's not even counting the federal tax credit I'll get, which is over $3000.

[951-Riverside]

14. Re: "This New Hyundai Car Runs On The Poop Of California Residents"

Its about time!

We're polluting the oceans with our waste, its great that someone has figured out how process and turn human waste into energy. This technology should be the #1 story not Buck Bundy.

The oil companies fear advancement like this so I expect to see a lot of immature comments about how "the car stinks ha ha tee hee" from them.

I'd rather have a car that runs on waste than one that runs on fuel that causes war and cancer.

[nationalize the fed]

17. It's always great to see someone get the potential of Hydrogen!

This technology should be the #1 story not Buck Bundy...

Yes it should. This is a game changer. Energy independence. TPTB will have to come up with other reasons for shortages and new taxes.

I'd rather have a car that runs on waste than one that runs on fuel that causes war and cancer.

Hydrogen from sewage is just one source. The more you look into Hydrogen the more fascinating it gets. You can make hydrogen gas in your garage with water from a water hose and electricity through electrolysis. Here's a demonstration:

Honda is working on a home hydrogen station- imagine filling your car at night with the hydrogen made from solar panels during the day. Never buy fuel again. Game changed.

Honda Introduces Solar Hydrogen Station on Saitama Prefectural Office Grounds

This is the first installation in Japan of a total system to produce, store and dispense hydrogen with ZERO CO2 emissions. A high pressure water electrolysis system, uniquely developed by Honda, produces hydrogen. With no mechanical compressor, the system is nearly silent and highly energy efficient. Using Solar and grid power, the system is capable of producing 1.5kg of hydrogen within 24 hours which enables an FCX Clarity to run approximately 150km or 90 miles...
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/4120327Solar-Hydrogen-Station/index.html



Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever

A New Jersey resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen Jun 19, 2008
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

Imagine how much hydrogen a solar farm like this could make:


Honda is working on a home hydrogen station

In addition to a solar cell-powered hydrogen refueling station, Honda is operating an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles while supplying electricity and hot water to the home as part of its ongoing research into development of hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future...
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/station/

The faster we spread the word the sooner the change happens.
The end to climate change, fracking and nuclear horrors is in sight. Now.

[Silent3]

23. Just keep in mind that while sewage might be a great thing to tap into for energy...

...the total potential there has to be fairly limited, no matter how much sewage you process. Sewage can at best be one element in an anything-and-everything strategy (along with wind, solar, geothermal, energy extraction from other waste materials, etc.).

[Egnever]

20. Thanks for that

Some great links in there.

[whatthehey]

10. Yes I do

As to technical question no it's not linear. You will get much faster charging the emptier your battery is. The Smart has a 3.3 KWh charger so with a 240v EVSE and a suitably high amperage circuit you'll get back at best 3.3KW every hour. Typicxally that would get you 15 miles every hour of charging.


Differing altitudes is a 2 edged sword. Regenerative braking will get you more range on downhills but uphill will burn range. In my 2.5 year EV experience the very worst sub zero hilly commutes will return about 60% of max range so if you need to go 45+ miles without a charge option I'd be worried. BTW unless the Smart is an aesthetic choice or a financial limit the Nissan Leaf S has much better range at a not much higher price.

[Silent3]

11. After doing a bit more research, I'm currently leaning toward a Ford Fusion Energi

With roughly a 20 mile pure electric range, I'd still be able to do most of my daily driving using no gas, but with no concerns about range on longer trips. I haven't gotten into an actual plugin model yet, but I did take a look at the non-plugin hybrid Fusion earlier today, which is very similar, and found that I like it a lot more than the Chevy Volt.

[Mister Ed]

13. From my own experience, I think that might be an excellent choice.

Mrs. Ed and I bought a Ford CMax Energi six months ago, and we have been very, very pleased with it. The Fusion Energi you're contemplating is essentially the same car, but with a sleeker, sedan-style body.

Errands around town amount to about half of the miles Mrs. Ed typically puts on her car. With the Energi, that means she does about half of her driving on electricity alone, without having to run the gas engine. Unlike an all-electric car, though, the Energi's range is unlmited. We can drive it coast-to-coast, as long as we don't mind using gasoline.

An important caveat for you to bear in mind is that cold winter weather will cut your electric range almost in half. That will be true with any battery-powered car. When the temperature drops, electrical resistance increases, and the cabin heater also puts quite a drain on the battery.

I see that you live in New Hampshire, where you may face winter temperatures almost as cold as those here in Minnesota, so your experience may be similar to ours. On sub-zero days, our all-electric range was typically 10 miles or so. Now that milder temperatures have arrived, we're getting 20 miles once again.

I think the quality and reliability of modern Fords is second to none. We're still driving our dear old Taurus after seventeen years, and so far, I'm terrifically impressed with the engineering quality of this CMax Energi.

[Silent3]

15. At least on the way into work in the winter...

...the Fusion will have been parked in our garage before I leave for work, a garage which seldom gets any colder than the 40s no matter how bitterly cold it is outside. The biggest challenge then for the charge capacity in cold weather would be the drive home, and any other driving I might do in the evening. Since work is only 6 miles from home, I'll probably still make it there and back gas-free, or nearly so.

Besides, even when the gas kicks in, at 40+ mpg, I'll still be doing better than my current Subaru.

Speaking of winter, I suppose I might find I'll miss my Subaru's AWD. The Fusion Titanium has an AWD option, but only with the non-hybrid gas-only model.

I'm glad to hear that you're liking the CMax Energi so much, that does indeed make me feel better that the Fusion Energi might be a very good move.

A friend of mine suggested I might want to wait for a Tesla Model X, but when I went looking for more info, I realized that some of what he'd said was unsubstantiated speculation (the ~$30K price) and false rumor (no, Steve Wozniak doesn't have one already!). With the Tesla web site itself offering so little info on what the price, features and options would be, I lost all interest in putting down a $5000 deposit just for the privilege of waiting a year or more for a largely unknown quantity.

[jbond56]

12. I have a focus electric

It says 76 mile range but my driving style yields about 95 mile range. My daily round trip is 43 miles which is almost half. The car texts me around 1am telling me its charged. Thats about 6 hours on 110. There are people getting 139 miles per charge. Is most of your driving highway are in town? In town driving really increase your range so does heavy traffic. Gas is for suckers. Keep paying the oil tax you fools.

[Silent3]

16. It sounds like the Focus and the Smart Car have a similar range...

...and I'd still be nervous about that range. I do most of my riding in town, but when I do take longer trips it's mostly highway.

in fact, the one thing that burst my bubble about the Smart car was when I suddenly remembered that, as something very new in my life, I'd started driving out to Mt. Monadnock to climb as a change-of-pace workout, and I'd done so seven times last summer. It's about an 82 miles round trip from home, and the car itself has to do some mountain climbing on the way, which I'll bet is tough on a battery given the extra effort a gas engine has to make.

I started thinking about having to decide in advance to swap cars with my wife every time I think I might get an urge to go climb, and it just didn't seem practical any more.

At least with something like a Fusion Energi, I won't have to pay very much "oil tax". I'll probably end up doing about 80% of my driving in pure electric mode.

[jbond56]

19. maybe

I would feel comfortable with an 82 mile trip. You lose range driving 80mph but i have plenty of amps to spare so I frequently hit 80mph. You should test drive an all electric and drive a area that has some "mountain climbing" the regen of the brakes seems pretty good. I'm lucky austin has tons of charging stations so if I'm on an extended range trip i park at a charge station and juice up(drink a coffee or do some shopping). So I don't have to worry. I would start to worry in the 100 mile range. It really comes down to how and where you drive. If you accelerate slowly, brake early, and cruise as much as you can your range will increase. I accelerate alot and my range is in the 90's so I know I could take it easy and add 10-20 miles easily. I have another car so if I need to travel out of town I can which is why I decided to go all electric. If you travel further than 100 miles I would go with the fusion.

Good luck. At least you moving in the right direction. Knowing that I have bought 10 gal of gas this year is a really cool feeling. Planning ahead and driving smart isn't that hard and knowing you didn't have to buy 160 gal this year (so far) is pretty cool. Not to mention the 12,840 lbs of carbon (enough to fill 33 houses) I didn't put in the atmosphere.......

[Silent3]

21. There are no charging stations at all along that particular route...

...except a couple so close to home that I'm either nearly home or driving further than home to get to them. A little off-route near the destination I found one hotel offering 120V charging, but it's only for overnight guests.

I'm not sure how much experimental range testing I want to do where the experimental results might be "didn't make it!" What would I do them? Call AAA and hope they have a portable charger (if such a thing exists), and charge for hours on the side of the road, while paying for the time of the guy who brought the charger? Get the car towed to a charging station?

If it were all very conservative testing, slowly stretching out my range to avoid such situations, I'd probably need a few weeks of test driving to figure it out, discover what driving style works best for what range. Even then, my confidence wouldn't be very high that conditions beyond my control (big traffic jam, unexpected detour, colder-than-expected weather) wouldn't shorten my range if I'm playing at the edge of my expected range.

I also plan to start trying out climbing some other mountains in NH, and they're all further than 40 miles, mostly a good bit further, so even if I could find charging stations along the route, I'd be adding many long hours of charging to any trip, and none of them conveniently ticking away while I'm parked where I want to be.

Whether I borrow my wife's car to make those trips, or use a plug-in hybrid, gas will be burned. If I've got my own plug-in hybrid, however, I'll go from burning gas all the time, as I do now, to seldom burning any gas at all during my normal daily driving.