Why Gun-Rights Backers Win While Other Conservative Causes Lose

[xchrom]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/why-gun-rights-supporters-win-when-other-conservative-causes-lose/361396/

?n4t83l
NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre (Mike Theiler/Reuters)


National Review’s Jim Geraghty posed a pointed question from the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting this weekend: Why do gun-rights supporters win when other conservative causes lose?

And in fact over the past 20 years, gun advocates have scored an astounding string of successes:

All 50 states now issue concealed-carry permits to allow approved gun owners to carry firearms into public places. In many states, permit holders may carry guns even into bars and non-TSA-patrolled areas of airports.

In 2008, gun advocates persuaded the Supreme Court to overrule a century of precedent and redefine the Second Amendment not as a right of state governments to form militias but as an individual right to acquire private firearms.

Gun advocates persuaded Congress in 2004 to let lapse the Clinton-era ban on assault rifles. In the mid-1990s, they voted to halt government research into the public-health effects of gun ownership when that research yielded uncongenial evidence.

No crime or atrocity, not even the massacre of children at Sandy Hook Elementary School, has checked the strong trend of U.S. public policy to make ever more lethal weapons ever more easily available to ever more people, including people with histories of domestic violence.

So congratulations to the NRA: mission accomplished!

[onehandle]

1. Old white men love a long hard rod. (See any ED commercial) nt

[Nay]

32. You know, I have long thought that it is exactly this. It's power and

sexuality wrapped up in one object. It has to be a subconscious or unconscious equation, which is the most powerful motivation.

[Orsino]

35. Men of all ages, and many women, too.

American gun fetishism seems inextricably bound up with white male fear of sexual/political/economic impotence. Corporate dominance has eroded the white male's privilege, and so promotes the gun industry in a feedback loop.

[Lizzie Poppet]

42. Penis reference on the very first reply (with extra added race baiting!). /thread

Surely there's another cliche'd response you left out...

[DanTex]

2. People get bitter, and cling to their guns.

[yeoman6987]

31. Constitution explains it

The other issues are not addressed in the constitution.

[alp227]

101. As Obama said in 2008, said so honestly right wingers trashed him for it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Barack_Obama#Elitism

...it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.[72]

[Bandit]

3. America stopped being "The Home of the Brave" quite some time ago

People are afraid. They have Republicans telling them constantly to be afraid and they are now afraid. They are afraid Blacks will want revenge for how they have been treated in this country, they are afraid of teen age gangs. They are afraid. America has become a nation of cowering people clutching their guns so they have something to erase their fears. However as long as there is a FOX news or a Rush Limbaugh they will be told again and again they need to be afraid, very afraid.

[AleksS]

114. This!

This, this, and a thousand times this!

[billh58]

159. +100 n/t

[badtoworse]

4. Gun control support is a mile wide and an inch deep.

RKBA people fight like junk yard dogs to defend their rights.

Except for a handfull of states like NY, NJ, CA, MA, IL and CT, pushing gun control is a lot more likely to cost a politician his job than get him elected. The politicians know that and act accordingly.

[stone space]

5. Well, yeah...you almost never see gun control advocates setting up checkpoints. (nt)

[badtoworse]

6. How is your post relevant to this discussion?

[stone space]

7. I was responding to this:

Gun control support is a mile wide and an inch deep.

RKBA people fight like junk yard dogs to defend their rights

[badtoworse]

10. Where are gun rights backers setting up checkpoints?

[stone space]

11. Guess you haven't been reading the news. But here's another example of how far...

...gun nuts are willing to go, where they crashed a family friendly OCCUPYPHOENIX with their AR-15s, with the cops just looking on and doing absolutely nothing as they threaten innocent men, women and children with a massacre.

The families at that OCCUPY encampment were lucky to get out alive.

The armed gun nuts should have been arrested immediately, and had all of their guns confiscated for life.

In a sane world, they would not have been allowed to terrorize all of the families at this event.

[badtoworse]

12. What gun rights group were they representing or were they just assholes who happened to be armed?

Common criminals can be armed, but that doesn't make them gun rights advocates.

[Paladin]

14. "Assholes who happened to be armed" stems directly from the gun rights movement.

You people own that sorry development, it's all yours.

[badtoworse]

16. Nope. not wearing it. There are legitimate uses for firearms, but these are not on the list.

[stone space]

96. Gun rights activists and domestic terrorists.

but that doesn't make them gun rights advocates.

From the video:

0:50 "Well, we're exercising our 2nd amendment rights..."

1:00 "...the moment we give up our 2nd amendment rights, that's when tyrants can come in, that's when the big boys with guns can sweep through, and take anybody's rights away"

1:40 "Our main focus out here is that we want to exercise those rights"

2:10 "everybody out here is part of a squad that is fully trained to use justified use of deadly force"

2:20 "and that's what we want to demonstrate to other folks, too...that you can do this peacefully, and that the more people that do it, the more you exercise that 1st amendment, you add teath to it with the 2nd amendment, that'll keep the government from ever taking away our 1st amendment rghts"

[badtoworse]

103. Like I said, a group of armed assholes doesn't speak for the millions of legitimate gun owners

I'm still not taking responsibility for those clowns.

[stone space]

109. Responsibe gun owners no doubt would have wanted to see him arrested immediately and his guns...

...confiscated before he started massacring folks, rather than the cops standing around doing nothing while he and his buddies showed off their AR-15s in public.

But how many gun rites organizations advocated for that at the time? Can you name a few?

There's a difference between responsible gun owners and gun rites organizations.

[badtoworse]

110. I didn't see them acting in a threatening way or breaking any law

I can't justify arresting them because I think they acting like jerks. What would you arrest them for?

I don't like people open carrying weapons like that because I think it alienates more people than it gains support from. For several reasons, I like concealed carry better than open carry.

[stone space]

121. I think it would have made more sense to arrest him that day for his threatening behavoir...

...than to wait for him to use his guns to massacre people.

Look at all those people in the background of that video, including children. They were all in danger, and are all lucky to have escaped with their lives.

[badtoworse]

130. What would you have charged him with? Acting like a jerk is not illegal.

[stone space]

133. Terrorism. Dude brought an AR-15 to a political event to threaten and intimidate people and...

...their families.

People had every reason to believe that a massacre was a distinct possibility.

That terrorism is not illegal does not mean that terrorism should not be illegal.

[badtoworse]

136. We must have watched a different video.

All I saw was a conversation with a guy that had an AR-15 slung over his shoulder. They talked about civil rights and problems with government being fraudulent. If there was any threat, implied or otherwise, I didn't see it.

[stone space]

142. The Neo-Nazi with the AR-15 slung over his shoulder was talking about Civil Rights. Yeah, right.

If there was any threat, implied or otherwise, I didn't see it.

Tell that to his victims.

[Packerowner740]

134. Low post count, "escaped with their lives"

Almost looks like someone is looking for a response

[stone space]

143. I don't understand your point here.

Low post count, "escaped with their lives"

Almost looks like someone is looking for a response

The people who were there that day at the OCCUPYPHEONIX encampment when the Neo-Nazis showed up with their AR-15s are lucky to be alive today.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Checkpoints? No.

But punitive taxes, lawsuits, registries and emotionalism are the coin of the realm.

[Paladin]

15. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Let's all shed a tear for how rough gun rights people have it in the good old U.S.A. these days.

I'll get back to you after the next mass shooting incident, OK? Shouldn't be very long.....

[Paladin]

18. Pretty feeble. Have a better response for the next mass shooting, OK? (nt)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Feel free to tell us how much you would oppose the police responding with guns drawn

to every report of something that looks like an "assault weapon."

[Paladin]

30. Huh? Maybe you need a little break. (nt)

[alp227]

107. And that break begins now.

Post 17 has been hidden by a 4-3 jury decision. That means the user can't post on this thread anymore! And no OP's in GD for an hour.

[Freddie]

13. Like in PA

Tea-party Sen. Toomey co-sponsored a reasonable background-checks bill and the reaction was downright viscious. It's like the anti-choicers, they base their vote on one issue alone. So a Dem candidate who publicly supports any kind of gun control is toast here.

[derby378]

20. I would still support Toomy/Manchin if it just came up for a vote

The background check system is in dire need of an overhaul.

[Eleanors38]

39. I support expanded/universal b.g. tests. Why the opposition?

Because the proposal is drowned out by the old-line gun ban outlook with its droning chants of banning "assault weapons," banning "extended magazines," banning "cop-killer bullets," and raising taxes for ammo.

"Gun control" is stuck in the late 70s, a disco, playing the same old scratchy LPs.

[spanone]

8. extreme fear-mongering works

[Mr_Rogers]

19. All the responses in this thread about clinging, bitterness, milita membership, its a white issue...

Last edited Wed Apr 30, 2014, 11:21 AM - Edit history (1)

... and of course the claims that only the controllers care about the children are the reason that the gun rights movement has been so successful.

The strangest part is that their tactics haven't changed in 30 years even though they continue to lose.

[derby378]

21. They have dominated the gun issue for around 40 years

And now that they're playing defense, naturally they're not used to it. The real tragedy is that the NRA has been allowed to devolve into a purely political machine under teahadist influence.

[Mr_Rogers]

22. I'd agree with that...

... but if it hadn't been the NRA another group would likely have moved in to fill the vacuum.

[derby378]

25. There is also the overriding obsession...

...with characterizing RKBA as an inherently "conservative" issue, which means that liberal gun owners are "freaks" unless they line up behind Feinstein, Bloomberg, et al.

[Mr_Rogers]

26. The political leadership knows...

... their constituents which is why gun rights continue to improve.

The small minority in leadership who feel very strongly about restricting gun rights and speak out about it are usually in demographically unique areas and often carry other baggage that makes their motives and proposed legislation suspect to others outside of their area.

[alp227]

75. "Demographically unique" "other baggage" like what?

I live in Northern CA, and I would guess "other baggage" refers to the case of State Sen. Leland Yee (who's accused of running a gunrunning operation despite advocating for gun control), correct?

And what the heck do you mean with "demographically unique"?

[NutmegYankee]

78. When I read that I thought of Bloomberg.

Part of the 1% and a man who proudly supported violations of the right to be free of unreasonable searches and grotesque racial profiling with stop and frisk. Him and Kelly are pieces of shit.

[Mr_Rogers]

86. Good example...

Not many out there like that one...

[alp227]

104. Rogers, I still wonder what you meant by "demographically unique".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024889415#post17

[billh58]

162. Unfortunately, Mr. Rogers

has been PPRed for being a returning troll, so he won't be able to respond to you (in this incarnation).

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. "the NRA has been allowed to devolve into a purely political machine under teahadist influence."

When every Democratic voter and politician is told "You're either with us or with the terrorists" then, yeah, a group and its influence is ceded to the opposing camp, regardless of the issue.

[Eleanors38]

33. Short, accurate & concise. Thanks. nt

[Hoyt]

38. Fortunately, most people have something different in mind when turning the country blue.

The 93% who would never dream of strapping a gun on before venturing out into public aren't really concerned about the poor pitiful 7% who need a gun in their pants, or on their ankle, to participate in society.

[Jgarrick]

46. Fortunately, most courts and legislatures recognize the Constitutional right to be armed.

History's not on your side on this issue. Gun rights (overall) have done nothing but expand for the last few decades, with no end in sight.

The forces of civilian disarmament have lost. The forces of freedom have won.

[Hoyt]

48. "Forces of Freedom." Sounds so tbaggerish to me.

Don't you just love the "forces of freedom" types.

[billh58]

148. And the forces of the NRA supporters such as you have lost,

especially on DU. Goodbye for now Jgarrick, but I'm sure that your zombie or sock puppet will be back like they have so many timees before.

And, just for the record Mr. Gun Troll, the end is indeed in sight for the unfettered proliferation of unaccountable guns and gunners on our streets.

[Hoyt]

149. +1.

[SQUEE]

150. NOT, EVEN, CLOSE

You are actually on the wrong side.. But that's ok, we have room in our oarty even for you.



I am hoping the beattings we take this year will open your eyes that Democrats that also happen to own guns will be listened to that this is a shit issue, unimportant in the grand scheme, and we can focus on much more important change.

Hoping, becase for all the bluster about concern, and sadness, i just see control advocates trying to win arguments, never compromising for change, over reaching, and perversely being responsible for the deaths they attribute to me and my guns... people are dying, and you are losing more ground everyday.... Sad really, because if you truly care, and truly believe the changes you insist apon will work you need me and others that own, understand, and use firarms to get sane and rational laws...

[billh58]

151. Dream on

gunner...

[center][/center]

[SQUEE]

152. ... well thought out and appropriate.

again, you are losing, and people die, so much for concern.
And yes, a gunner, it is a compliment where I live, quite a good one actually.

tick tock, friend, I am still willing to help, you just wanna play funnies on the internet... I actually trained 11 people this weekend, 4 who had just purchased thier first firearm.
I extolled and hammered home realistic nd factual training, weapon familiarity, safe storage along with recomendations for products, and familiarization and safety training for the 3 with children, they will tell their friends, some of who will come to me, and tell friends... etc etc... What have you done to help save lives?

[billh58]

153. Again, you are free

to live in your Gungeons and Dragons fantasy world, so dream on Bubba.

[SQUEE]

164. If we are gonna be bigoted, please call me

Hymie, or even Fagin...
Dont spout lies and drivel, i will not engage you... this is not bansalot, I have much to say, from an educated and honest liberal perspective.
Do try and keep up..
and someone else has died, while you keep lying, blaming and refusing to actually learn. And my guns are in a safe, and the people I teach and spend time educating, well they are spreading my point of view. grass roots, grass roots. I am getting things done.

you?

tick tock

[billh58]

167. Nice NRA-apologist

diatribe. Ted and Wayne should be very proud of you...

[SQUEE]

169. good luck, if all you offer to your "movement" is ignorance and name calling, you'll need it.

I have a group of 15 week after next, and Flag Day weekend, a big training weekend, 30 people.

Again grass roots, no NRA or RW histrionics. Your cause, it's just pimping fear, and mine empowers. Who is the progressive?

Have a very splendid weekend.
...after all the horrible weather this week, and the damage it brought to the area I plan to be out spreading the word.

[billh58]

170. It is not

"my" movement, but that of a growing body of new-generation Liberal Democrats who have seen enough gun violence in our streets to be motivated enough to demand accountability from the "cold dead hands" Second Amendment absolutists like you and your Gungeon buddies.

I support the Liberal Democratic gun control movement just as passionately as you support the right-wing gun lobby, through donations, LTE submissions, and countering the "RKBA" rhetoric here on DU. If I can judge by the overwhelming amount of negative comments I read here, the Gungeon appears to be the most despised Group on DU, and rightfully so. You not only empower and support the right-wing gun lobby, but you and your Gungeon cohorts are condescending, arrogant, and full of yourselves when you proclaim "I have a gun and there is nothing you can do about it."

Actually Bubba, there IS something we can do about it, and we are in the process.

Once again for your edification:

[center][/center]

You may now have the last word as I have more important things to do than to argue with a self-professed "gunner."

[SQUEE]

171. words..

is
all
you
have.
Gotcha.
...
good luck.

[Hoyt]

160. Sounds like gun restrictions would put you out of the gun profiteering business. Not surprised.

[SQUEE]

163. .. pro bono work Hoyt.

your wrong again, not surprised. It woukd be against my beliefs to profit from teaching people.
I take a net loss every year to teach people about safe and responsible gun ownership outside of the NRA's propaganda.

I see it as my responsibility as a gun owner, I want them safe from armed robbers. Not all are cowardly posturing, some mean to kill. Since i can't teach clairvoyance, I teach defense and safety.

[Hoyt]

165. Gun promotion, just the same.

[SQUEE]

166. Yup, unapologetic, and honest

I am a proud and responsible gun owning Democrat. I have an agenda to bring more Democrats to the shooting world.

I do something you don't like, and your obvious projection, your mis-characterizations, your bigotry and your admited crimes let me know all I need to about your agenda

[pipoman]

24. except...

The "century of precedent" is actually one completely flawed and repeatedly misinterpreted decision, USA v. Miller in which the only argument heard by SCOTUS was that of the government because Miller was dead and nobody from his side showed up to present the case. Other than that I don't know of any other SCOTUS decisions that could be defined as precedent setting.

Gun advocates had little to do with the Democratic Congress declining to send reauthorization of the assault weapons ban to Shrub II, who said he would sign it if presented. The reason he would sign it, and the reason they declined to reauthorize it was because of an eminent challenge to the ban which almost certainly would have not only been precedent setting, but also would have struck the ban down based on the previous precedent of 'is the firearm in question "in common use for lawful purposes"...something which could easily be shown because of the vast number of these firearms in private ownership. Also the definition of "assault weapon" in nearly every law is overtly ambiguous.

As for the lack of new regulations, lawmakers are having a difficult time coming up with new laws which are not already in the 20k or so laws already on the books, and could withstand a constitutional challenge.

The NRA is a good boogy man, and they are definitely right wing ideologues. They represent only around 5% of gun owners in this country. The article is simplistic.

[UTUSN]

27. & the answers are: *CLOAKING* gunnuttery in "populism," "empowerment," & "non-racial" - plus,

I like these statistics:

So this piece is from David FRUM?!1********QUOTE*****

.... Even more impressive, this string of victories was scored as gun ownership in America tumbled. Only about one-third of American households now own a gun, compared to about one-half in 1973. Much of this decline can be traced to the fading of hunting as an American pastime. Only about 6 percent of Americans hunt even once in a year. That’s just slightly more than the number who attended a ballet performance: 3.9 percent.

Yet a smaller group of gun owners manages to exercise more political power. As gun ownership has dwindled, the remaining cohort has coalesced into a compact and self-conscious minority, for whom guns represent an ideology even more than a sport or hobby.

Republicans are nearly twice as likely to own a gun as Democrats are.

White Americans are twice as likely to own a gun as nonwhite Americans.

Among Americans under age 30, only about one in five owns a gun. Among Americans over age 50, one in three owns a gun.

Nearly half of men own a gun; only 13 percent of women do.

Southerners are 50 percent more likely to own a gun than Easterners, the South being the most gun-owning region and the East being the least.

Add it all up, and the core gun constituency looks a lot like the Tea Party on the firing range: Two-thirds of American households own no guns at all. The vast majority of households that own a gun own only one. Opposing them, a small minority—about 6 percent of American households—have amassed 65 percent of the nation’s privately owned firearms. That group is very white, very Southern, and very conservative indeed. ....

********UNQUOTE********

[billh58]

154. Inconvenient truths for

the NRA apologist crowd, but so obvious to rational people.

[The Straight Story]

29. Same reason pro-choice wins out over anti-choice in the dem party

Many folks don't like a few select people removing choices or even suggesting they are for more regulations (like ultrasounds, having to have the dr registered with a hospital, etc and so on).



No crime or atrocity, not even the massacre of children at Sandy Hook Elementary School, has checked the strong trend of U.S. public policy to make ever more lethal weapons ever more easily available to ever more people, including people with histories of domestic violence.

Less than one percent of gun owners are harming anyone with guns.

2013: Philadelphia (CNN) -- A Philadelphia abortion provider who killed babies by cutting their spinal cords with scissors was found guilty of first-degree murder on Monday.

Maybe based on that story we need more regulations and laws? Or do we simply understand that the actions of on person does not define what others will do (ie, bias/stereotypes).

[mac56]

34. "Less than one percent of gun owners are harming anyone with guns."

Whew, that's a relief. I'm sure the Sandy Hook parents are taking great comfort from that.

What percentage of scissors users are harming anyone?

[The Straight Story]

36. About the same

Same with cars, pools, etc. Greater than zero and around 0.4 - 0.8 % (according to cdc rates on pool accidents, knives, car accidents/homicides, etc).

And I seem to remember...Oh hell, I might be wrong...but there was, I believe, a person who was involved in that shooting. I'll have to go and check because I was under the impression that someone was holding the weapon and was seen by police as responsible.

Again, I could be wrong. But if I am not - we need to judge all humans and maybe pass some new laws about letting them be born, what they can wear etc. But you might be right, it might have just been one gun and we should round up all the others based on that.

[Riftaxe]

47. When the pro control advocates

come across as a dishonest violent sociopaths, is it really hard to understand why very few people take their fervent desire to disarm others seriously?

[upaloopa]

53. Wow that's a new meme isn't it?

Poor widdle gunners being picked on by violent sociopath gun control advocates.
That is rush limp balls tactic say the opposition is doing what you have been guilty of for years!

[Riftaxe]

57. I do believe it is just an observation

but lord, take it too meme status if you want. Just because some people are incapable of individual thought, does not mean i subscribe to that laziness....Hell, for $9.50 an hour I will be your personal bogeyman thinking thoughts so you do not need to, of course that will have to include benefits.

I take it the mockery is a substitute for knowledge of any depth or at all on the subect for that matter?

[upaloopa]

59. Take it any way you want

It is obvious you have run out of meaningful things to say since personal attacks is all that's left in your bag.
I am not the one who is so paranoid and fearful I have to carry a gun

[mac56]

54. I have no idea what you're talking about.

That's fine, though, I'll leave it that way.

[etherealtruth]

97. Thank you for the laugh

I had a really rough day and your post made me laugh out loud!

[Hoyt]

40. Not a shot was fired at the Bundy ranch, but our country was harmed by the armed gun fanciers

who intimidated people there.

You need to expand your definition of "harming anyone" to included those who intimidate others, spousal abuse, bigots who arm up because of their fear/hatred of minorities (the group that represents the vast majority of today's gun fanciers), etc.

Heck, according to where you mine your statistics, Zimmerman did not harm anyone.

[The Straight Story]

41. oh, how else shall we expand it

By noting how many crimes were prevented by people owning guns, criminals thinking twice about breaking into a house because they know the owner has a gun, etc and so on?

Works both ways.

[Riftaxe]

50. Was it more harm then when the other

girls made fun of your clothes, or less harm?

I am sure for you it sucks that you did not get to see blood that day, change the laws to prevent the other actions the BLM could have effectively taken, and i mean completely strike those laws from the books, and then maybe you can gain more pleasure with the next Federal encounter with a lunatic.

Show me the harm that was done to "our country", because until you do, I can quite assure you that eating crow is less damage then rended flesh and spilled blood.

[Hoyt]

51. Difficult to respond to gibberish. But, I'm talking about the right wing gun yahoos who showed up.

You know, these ignorant, bigoted gun fanciers:

[SQUEE]

52. Can we agree armed robery should also be listed

Dear dear friend? Just wanna know.

[alp227]

106. So stats matter more than saving lives? Sheesh.

Or do we simply understand that the actions of on person does not define what others will do (ie, bias/stereotypes).

Of course not. But is it not worth it to be proactive to prevent future instances of rare but deadly events like Sandy Hook?

And seriously? Comparing guns to ABORTION? What?

[The Straight Story]

108. *facepalm*

Comparing techniques used in discussion and applying them to things people related to. Not comparing subjects but methods.

We can save a lot of lives by giving up a lot of freedoms. We have done so already because of terrorism. I remember people here after 9/11 saying we shouldn't overreact to the events of that day. But we did as a nation and got patriot act, etc.

I recall people saying not to blame all Muslims for what some did or the religion itself. Blame the person. Look for causes, etc.

Saying we do the same with other things seems, to me at least, to be consistent. Otherwise we are doing nothing more than the right did and we once condemned.

[DanTex]

117. Yes, we get it, guns matter more than human life. Facepalm indeed.

[alp227]

124. You can't look at different types of things in the same consistent lens.

Seriously, comparing guns to abortion and now Muslims post-9/11? Really?

[oneofthe99]

37. Party lines are blurred when it comes to gun control issues

Democrats and Republicans are gun owners so when a politician starts talking about
limiting access to your gun or being able to purchase one they lose any wide support.

That's why Feinstein loses on this every time she talks about it.

[Hoyt]

58. But, she gets re-elected. So I assume her non-right wing constituency supports her.

But the gun fancying yahoo vote in other states doesn't. I get that.

I think if Democrats cared about the future -- more than getting elected right now -- they'd be pushing laws to reduce the proliferation of gun yahoos like this:







________________________

This is more like where Democrats ought to be, not coddling the yahoos above:

[oneofthe99]

60. I wouldn't call Democrats who are gun owners right wing and you have to admit

San Francisco or many parts of California are not typical of most blue state Democratic districts in other states. She has a strong following in California.
First woman mayor ..etc...

If she ran on this gun control issue in other blue states or some swing states
her long career in the senate would have been over a long time ago.

I really don't think Democrats are coddling gun owners , I really think that guns just blur any type of party line.

You can't say hey" vote for me but by the way I want to make what you have in your home illegal...

That will never work

[Hoyt]

61. Sometimes, you just gotta do what is right, not what is popular among yahoos.

Truthfully, I don't care if a person has a gun or two in their home -- just fondle it there.

But I do care about toting in public, amassing numerous guns, arming up like this is a war zone, flying confederate and Gadsden flags, joining militias, intimidating people, shooting unarmed kids like Zimmerman and Dunn, etc. It's time to put an end to that crud, and true gun enthusiasts should be at the forefront of that, not mothers with dead children.

[oneofthe99]

65. What our party needs is a leading Democrat that can resonate with the majority of gun owners

in our country without telling them guns are evil . Feinstein just doesn't with moderate Democrats when it comes to gun control.

We need new faces in the Senate and Congress

[Hoyt]

69. Yeah, let's get one of these guys to run.

How many decent Democrats are into gunz to the point "they will resonate with the majority of gun owners." The fact is, the "majority of gun owners" are white/right wing bigots.

[badtoworse]

72. ...and you wonder why the dialogue never goes anywhere.

[Hoyt]

73. I know exactly why dialog goes nowhere -- gun fanciers can't imagine life without access to

as many lethal weapons as they need/want. That's irrational in a modern society. Time to bite the bullet and pass laws like Australia did in 1996. They've got real cojones.

[badtoworse]

79. You're proving my point. You might get seven states to go along with Australia's approach.

That's 31 states short of what you need to amend the constitution. A better approach would be to negotiate a deal to improve the situation, but you take the "I get everything and you get nothing" approach dealing with gun owners. I've negotiated deals, but I've never gotten a damn thing with that strategy - the other side just tells you to go pound sand which is what's happening with gun control.

You need to accept that the gun control side doesn't have the political muscle to force their agenda through and no level of whining or insults will change that. It's time to clean up the rhetoric and start a give and take dialogue.

[Hoyt]

81. Better approach is one more rational Justice, and get rid of bigoted right wingers

in state legislatures. The 2nd Amendment does not need to be repealed, just interpret it as written rather than the contorted interpretation offered by those desperate to keep their guns and in the majority of gun owners case, protect them from the boogeyman.

[badtoworse]

82. Don't hold your breath. If anything, the trend is in the other direction.

[Hoyt]

88. I think the 4 Justice Dissent in Heller indicates otherwise.

But you do have Scalia on your side.

[hack89]

99. There is no legal impediment to passing strict gun control

Heller is red herring. AWBs are constitutional. UBCs are constitutional. Registration might be constitutional - if not, it would not because of the 2A.

The 2A could disappear and it would make no difference. Your problems are political, not legal.

[badtoworse]

70. What we need is someone who's willing to deal.

Gun owners have things they would likely give up as part of a deal to get things they want. When you ask the gun control side what they would give on, you get a response like "you can keep your guns" or "we shouldn't have to give anything" or some other equally asinine non-response.

If you're going to "lead" by just taking from gun owners, don't be surprised if you get painted as just another gun controller hawking more of the same.

[Hoyt]

100. Yeah, the Molon Labe crowd proves that.

Even Gungeoneers like to say, "who is going to take them," indicating they really aren't law-abiding or responsible. Symptomatic of lead poisoning, I guess.

[badtoworse]

105. Folks like you keep the NRA in business.

[Hoyt]

120. Nope, yahoos into gunz and manufacturers, keep them in business. Leadership is who's who

of right wing politics and bigotry.

[hack89]

131. But people like you ensure that reasonable compromise is impossible

Which is ok I guess - insults and playing the cultural warrior are more fun than serious and temperate discussion with gun owners.

[badtoworse]

132. When gun owners hear people blathering about taking their guns, they send more checks to the NRA.

You do that all the time.

[Hoyt]

135. Then, they aren't Democrats and will only vote for white/right wingers because

that is the majority of gun owners.

[badtoworse]

137. Do you seriously believe a state like Michigan would stay blue if politicians there talked like you?

There are many Democrats who feel strongly about gun rights. You're delusional if you think a draconian gun control / gun confiscation platform wouldn't alienate them. The AWB cost us the Congress in 1994.

Keep on blathering though. The NRA appreciates your help.

[Hoyt]

138. I'm not running for anything. I just do not believe your fellow Michigan gun fanciers like this

will vote for a Democrat under any circumstances:

[badtoworse]

139. They're not the ones I'd worry about.

[Hoyt]

140. They are the majority of gun fanciers and nuts.

As I've said before, who cares if some guy keeps a gun or two in his house. It's the yahoos packing in public and arming up that are the issue. Where do you fall?

[badtoworse]

141. In the first category, but ridiculous gun laws impact all gun owners

You seem to think you can pass laws and only impact the yahoos. It doesn't work that way and you're making a big mistake assuming it does.

ETA: I'm leaving to go fishing now with my buddies. We might hit the range and do some shooting.

[Hoyt]

144. Be careful. No drinking or horsing around.

[DanTex]

116. Not really. There are very few NRA-style gun fanatics that are actually Democrats.

Democratic gun owners generally support gun control. You even see the same split on DU -- the pro-RKBA people here are mostly conservatives and libertarians.

[billh58]

155. And that's putting it

kindly...

[DanTex]

157. I used to live in Texas (hence my screen name).

I met plenty of Texas Dems, and also plenty of Texas gun nuts, but there was a pretty tiny intersection between the two. Certainly no Texas Dem that I met was anywhere close to as loony as the average gungeoneer, including the ones that owned guns.

[billh58]

158. Most (almost all)

gun owners that I know personally are as far from NRA extremists and Second Amendment absolutists as they could possibly be. Hawaii has some of the most strict gun regulations in the country, and absolutely none of them have any problems with that, even when it comes to "may issue" CCW.

The NRA recently sent out some Mainland rabble rousers to stir things up and try to get Hawaii gun laws overturned, but they were met with mainly indifference and scorn.

There is a huge difference between the majority of rational and responsible Democratic gun owners, and the few right-wing fanatics we encounter on DU.

[DanTex]

161. I know a guy in upstate NY who owned a gun that was made illegal by the SAFE act.

I think he had the choice to register it, but instead he just got rid of it. No whining, no screaming about tyranny or fascism or "freedom" or any other NRA talking points. Just got rid of the gun. Yes, there are plenty of reasonable people who own guns. It's just that the ones who are off the rails are also the loudest.

[Eleanors38]

43. Frum cites 10-yr-old Gallup data. More recent findings

show an uptick in gun ownership, esp. among both self-described Democrats and women.

The bigger point is over 80,000,000 Americans have taken (in most cases) the affirmative and rather costly action of purchasing firearms; predictably, they are likely to be more militant in opposing restrictions on making a weighty choice like that.

What do hunter numbers have to do with this? That data seems to attach itself to gun essays like a remora fish.

[aikoaiko]

55. Civil liberties can freak some people out.

Ha ha!

[MicaelS]

62. Given how rhetorically nasty anti-gun people can be...

Witness the inevitable nasty statements about male genitals and sexuality in any discussion about guns, some people might refuse to admit they own guns. They simply don't want to put up with any verbal harassment from relatives, friends or neighbors who are anti-gun.

[badtoworse]

63. That is arguing on a purely emotional plane and poorly even by that standard.

If they could defend their position on a logical plane, they would do so. Speaks volumes about the strength of their argument.

[Hoyt]

64. I think that is good. When guns become like cigarettes, swastikas and incest, so much the better.

Last edited Wed Apr 30, 2014, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)

This gun culture stuff has gone too far and people should be ashamed of pushing the envelop in the 21st Century. Keep a gun or two at home if you must, but the other gun craziness can't become taboo soon enough.

[badtoworse]

66. Actually, I think the opposite reaction is more likely.

I'm a gun owner and when I hear the penis analogies and words like "gun humper". My reaction is to tell the person using such rhetoric to fuck off. I'm not the least bit embarrassed about owning firearms.

[Hoyt]

67. That kind of attitude/anger does not mix well with guns.

[badtoworse]

71. What sort of a response do you usually get to insults?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

80. "That's why your [gun owners] have to behave better, they gotta act nicer, they gotta try harder..."

"Yeah, that's right, we's like Avis."

Thanks for the tip.

[dionysus]

74. you do realize your constant belittling approach to people isn't winning anyone to your cause,right?

Last edited Wed Apr 30, 2014, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

[Hoyt]

77. If I tickled gun fanciers with a feather, it wouldn't change their obsession with gunz.

Plus, I can assure you that the gun fanciers have said far worse to me.

[dionysus]

83. i don't think you have to worry anyone on DU shooting up anything, seriously... nt.

[Hoyt]

85. I don't know, some of the discussions in Gungeon are concerning. I remember one

Last edited Wed Apr 30, 2014, 11:19 PM - Edit history (1)

a year or two ago when a hurricane was approaching New England. There was a long thread on go to guns to shoot people fleeing a natural disaster, reminded me of bigots in Gretna during Katrina. Then, there was a thread about what to say to police if you screw up and shoot an innocent person. It was right before a law-abiding gun owner murdered Trayvon Martin. And whi can forget the discussions on best loads to kill someone, sights that help you clear a room, high cap mags, shooting targets that resemble humans, love for Randy Weaver and David Koresh, and other similarly disgusting gun crud. More later.

[Lasher]

111. If folks in the gungeon said worse things to you, why are you one of only two people banned there?

Why weren't those people banned for saying mean things to you?

[badtoworse]

112. Maybe he was banned for sounding like a broken record.

[Hoyt]

119. You have to repeat things over and over to get through to those with gunz strapped to their body.

It's a cult with members introduced to the culture at an early age.

[Hoyt]

128. No such lofty aspirations. Simply cannot resist responding to

ignorant comments by people who find it necessary to carry guns to public parks, Chuck E Cheese, church, etc., and think like Wayne LaPieere, Teddy Nugent, and worse when it comes to gunz.

Otherwise, I love you guys.

[Hoyt]

118. The gungeon is for gun fanciers. You know, to discuss shooting people efficiently,

newest lethal accessories, how to get off like Zimmerman, how to say you despise NRA while supporting them, guns in more places, etc.

[Lasher]

125. I get it now, it's like protective custody to protect you from those unprovoked personal attacks.

I read some of those old threads. It's shameful the way they picked on you for no reason. You're better off now.

[dionysus]

84. so is your goal (on DU) to bring people over to your side, or just snark it out with gun folks™?

[Hoyt]

87. Nope, I'm here to convince women to shun gun fanciers. I believe it is

quickest way to change any gun lover who might still be rational.

[dionysus]

89. Pro Tip™: using belittling remarks in every post isn't clever, and it won't convince anyone to join

you...

[Hoyt]

90. Don't expect inveterate gun fanciers to change.

Guns are just too important to you, more important than society .

[dionysus]

91. guns aren't important to me. near the bottom of the list.

[hack89]

93. Why would any women take your posts seriously?

Most women reject an insulting, in your face approach.

[Hoyt]

98. Oh Hack, you take stuff too seriously.. Doesn't mix well with gunz.

[hack89]

102. Hard to take "gunz" seriously

But then being serious is not what you are about, is it? You enjoy the cultural war too much.

[oneofthe99]

113. No way you're real

[sweetapogee]

145. I agree

the quickest way is the insult game. Works every time. It's working right now.

[Hoyt]

147. You think appealing to their concern for society or innocent kids works?

Gun fanciers could not care less. Too many of them are like this:

[sweetapogee]

156. how do you know?

your one of them?

[billh58]

168. +100

Perfect!

[hack89]

92. Hoyt's tongue is firmly planted in his cheek

It is some sort of internet performance art.

[dionysus]

94. but it gets stale after a while, the same lines over and overand over and 10 million times... nt

[hack89]

95. I have always wondered what side he is actually on

Since he helps the pro-gun side he doesn't bother me that much. The secret is to avoid drawn out conversations.

[oneofthe99]

123. I think I've figured it out

He probably has more guns than this whole site combined,

[Skittles]

68. what Zimmerman does is A-OK

just don't be NASTY to him!!!

[randys1]

76. Guns are toys for childish men

[mwrguy]

115. insecure racists are still a large voting block.

And they will vote for guns before they vote to save their own children.

[Skip Intro]

122. It's not the NRA. It's the people of the US. Look at CO.

The only reason Dems still hold the state Senate is because the third Dem under recall for helping institute new gun restrictions stepped down before being recalled like the first two.

Lobbying can go only so far. In the end, self-serving (are they all?) lawmakers vote their own survival, and that rests in the hands of the voters. If the country were clamoring for further gun control, it would be done. But that isn't the case. In fact, it is quite opposite. RKBA supporters, many Dems among them, are in the majority, and very engaged.

It isn't the NRA, it's the people of this nation who resist those who'd sooner make ownership illegal if they could. (As if the criminals would give a damn)

[Turbineguy]

126. It's an inefficient eugenics program

A republican healthcare plan would accomplish the goal of population reduction better.

[YoungDemCA]

146. Call me a pessimist, but a lot of conservative causes seem to be winning

If not necessarily in popular support, at least in actual policy measures (especially since the Reagan years).

The NRA/gun manufacturers lobby is just the tip of the iceberg.