Snowden: "When you make a purchase...I could see it at my desk, crossing my screen."

[ProSense]

New Audio: Listen to Edward Snowden Defend Whistleblowers

"I'd realized that the highest likelihood, the most likely outcome of returning this information to public hands would be that I would spend the rest of my life in prison."

—By Patrick Caldwell

<...>

When asked what advice he would give to the next potential whistleblower who wants to expose wrongdoing in the intelligence community, Snowden said that there needed to be systematic changes; otherwise that whistleblower would be forced into exile like him. "Thomas Drake showed us that even if you're a real classic [whistleblower revealing] waste, fraud, and abuse in a program… there's a very good chance the FBI will kick in your door, pull you out of the shower naked at gunpoint in front of your family, and ruin your life," he said. Instead, Snowden suggested that Congress needed to add safeguards to encourage people to come forward. "Work with Congress in advance to try to make sure that we have reformed laws," he said, "that we have better protections, that all these shortcomings and failures in our oversight infrastructure are addressed so that the next time that we have an American whistleblower who has something that the public needs to know, they can go to their lawyer's office instead of the airport. Right now I'm not sure they have a real alternative."

Politicians, including Hillary Clinton, have criticized Snowden for fleeing the country. Snowden countered that he would have received no whistleblower protections had he remained in the United States. "I knew what would happen," he said. "I knew that there were no whistleblower protections that would protect me from prosecution as a private contractor as opposed to a government civil, a direct government employee. But that didn't change my calculus of what needed to be done."

"Do you think it's right that the NSA is collecting more information about Americans in America than it is about Russians in Russia?" Snowden asked. "Because that's what our systems do. We watch our own people more closely than we watch any other population in the world." Snowden explained how he himself could have spied on any person, "from a federal judge to the president of the United States," from his own desk, as long as he had an e-mail address or other digital identifier of the target. "When you make a purchase, when you buy a book. All of that is collected," Snowden said. "I could see it at my desk, crossing my screen."

At one point during Snowden's appearance, an organizer of the event asked the audience not to record him—but this was near the end of his remarks, and numerous people in the audience were holding up smart phones and recording devices.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/listen-edward-snowden-defend-whistleblowers

[Whisp]

1. lol. I wonder if my new tires crossed his screen...

what a dolt.

Anyway, back to reading the article I just burst out laughing at the headline.

[Mojorabbit]

89. This is what makes du suck

Way to add thoughtful comments to the subject. Men.

[Whisp]

90. Men?

I'm a girlllll, but that's okay - I don't get insulted by being mistaken for a man. Never saw the big deal on that.

[Mojorabbit]

91. Should have been meh. Damn autocorrect. :) nt

[Whisp]

97. well at least you are not in bed with a bad clown

that is the best autocorrect I've heard yet - someone calling into work for a sick day.

[Tarheel_Dem]

102. That ain't what "makes DU suck".

[sabrina 1]

127. I'm sure they did. But hey, peeping toms working for private Security Contractors spying on American

people? Who cares? Guess what, a majority of Americans DO care. You are free to throw away YOUR RIGHTS, but you are NOT Free to throw away the rights of the American people to be free from peeping toms working for Private Security Contractors. We still have a Constitution which guarantees freedom from Government intrusion into the private lives of the American people. I find these creeps to be weird, not to mention in violation of our laws.

[Trajan]

2. One of the things I hate about the 'new' DU

Threads like this, and the obnoxious posts they spawn ...

Ugly ass DU ...

EDIT: I am not coming back to this thread, so I don't give a fuck what you say ... I will not reply

[Cali_Democrat]

5. What's wrong with the OP?

It's just a snip of an article in Mother Jones.

[WillyT]

8. Word... Like They Have ANY FUCKING IDEA WHAT SNOWDEN WAS ABLE TO SEE...

It's not like Snowden was looking for tire purchases...

But if YOU were a TARGET... for whatever reason... they would know all about your tire purchase.

Why ???

Because they were monitoring YOU.

[ProSense]

25. Actually,

"Like They Have ANY FUCKING IDEA WHAT SNOWDEN WAS ABLE TO SEE..."

...I do: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892466#post18

[WillyT]

27. Cute...

No matter how hard you try...

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892625

[ProSense]

28. LOL! n/t

[WillyT]

32. It's Special To Know... That You Find Freedom And Democracy Hilarious...

You gonna be OK ???

[ProSense]

36. You misunderstood,

"It's Special To Know... That You Find Freedom And Democracy Hilarious..."

...I value freedom, which is why I'm not in Russia. That's entirely different from finding Snowden's absurd statement "hilarious."

LOL!

[WillyT]

39. Oh Damn... You're A Hoot... Ever Take A Class On Civics ???

Cause I have about a hundred quotes from our founding Fathers that would suggest... NO !!!

[ProSense]

42. Wait,

"Cause I have about a hundred quotes from our founding Fathers that would suggest... NO !!! "

...are you saying the "founding Fathers" thought Russia was a democracy or are you comparing Snowden to the "founding Fathers"?

What the hell do the "founding Fathers" have to do with my comment?

[WillyT]

43. Nothing... Absolutely Nothing... What It Says About Us... Is Volumes...

[ProSense]

44. Blue cheese.

Is that comment cryptic? LOL!

[JDPriestly]

84. What evidence do we have that Snowden's statement is absurd?

I don't know of any other than that people from the NSA deny that what he is saying is true.

So we have two statements, the Snowden view that he could see on his computer screen very personal data about a person under surveillance while employed as a contractor for Booz-Allen for the NSA and the denials of the truth of Snowden's claim from NSA officials.

Clearly, I have no physical evidence suggesting that either Snowden or the NSA officials are lying. So I must ask myself, who would have more to gain from lying about this issue, Snowden or the NSA officials?

And my answer to myself is the NSA officials. By lying, they protect their jobs and their fairly comfortable incomes and lifestyles. They please their employers. Who knows, maybe the lower level people think they might get a raise if they manage to convince people that they are telling the truth. At any rate, they insure their job security if what they are saying is a lie and they never admit that it is. That does not prove they are lying, but it creates a credible possibility that they are lying.

On the other hand, Snowden lives in exile in a country that is ultimately even less hospitable to whistleblowers and dissidents than the US, far less so. Let's face it, Snowden is in Russia because, once he got stuck there (and the refusal for safe passage to the plane of the president of Bolivia certainly proved that Snowden was stuck in Russia and not there because he wanted to be) Putin could not resist the opportunity to make the US look bad, mean and intolerant of the human right to tell the truth. If it weren't for the fact that Snowden's revelations about NSA surveillance and the US's extreme reaction and anger at Snowden for simply telling the American people the truth makes the US look like the biggest manipulator and violator of human privacy rights of all time as well as like the most hypocritical nation on earth, Putin would never have allowed Snowden a safe haven.

So, Snowden is not in a pleasant place. He is receiving awards. But that will pass. And then he will be stuck in Russia. He has nothing to gain by lying about or exaggerating the capacity of the NSA to spy on everything any American does. That does not mean that the NSA spies closely on every American. It means the NSA has the capacity to completely own your life if it wishes to exercise that capacity. But Snowden has gained nothing and has nothing to gain from having let the American people know the extent to which our lives are open books to the executive branch and military in our country.

I cannot see that Snowden has any interest, any personal interest or can gain anything from the revelations he has made -- other than a renown that makes him a potential target of the US government and the constant reminder that his life is in jeopardy at all times. That's not much of a gain in my book.

That is why, without more concrete evidence either way, I am inclined to trust Snowden and believe what he is saying is true. Even if he writes a book that sells many copies, the gain will never make up for the huge personal loss that he has taken -- losing his country, his family, his language, his lifestyle, his girlfriend, American food. Hey! If you have never lived abroad you might not appreciate just how homesick you can get after some years of exile (even if not political or forced).

So, until there is some proof that Snowden is lying, I will tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. He has nothing to gain from lying about the technological and surveillance capacity of the NSA.

[sabrina 1]

115. The US Govt forced Snowden to remain in Russia. Can you explain why they did that? n/t

[randome]

116. Can you?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

118. No, it sure destroys the talking points thought, 'Putin Lover' etc. doesn't it? The US Govt is

solely responsible for Snowden being in Russia. The lie that he 'fled to Russia' doesn't gain much traction when people KNOW the facts. That he is there because of the US Govt who prevented him from getting to his destination.

Perhaps you can explain the duplicity here. On the one hand, the US Govt forced him to remain in Russia, THEN pretended he 'fled to Russia'.

Fortunately for Snowden and those who actually care about the truth, the 'Putin lover' garbage has not gained any traction because the WORLD knows the facts.

[randome]

121. All wanted felons have their passports revoked.

Putin can fly him out any time he wants. But he hasn't. I wonder why. I also wonder why Assange says he told Snowden he was safer in Russia instead of Latin America.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

122. Felons? Snowden has not been convicted of anything as far as I know. You are pretty loose

with due process. He is innocent under our system of justice as far as I know. Yes, I know, that 'quaint old document' everyone swears to 'protect and defend from all enemies both foreign and domestic'. I'll give you three guesses as to who called the US Constitution a 'quaint old document'!

Btw, where are the charges against the accused criminals exposed by Snowden's, Manning's, Drake's, Binney's leaks of egregious crimes against humanity and against the American people? Anyone even investigating those crimes yet?

[ProSense]

117. Actually,

"The US Govt forced Snowden to remain in Russia. Can you explain why they did that?"

...that's nonsense.

From the piece posted here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024896931)

WikiLeaks ✔ @wikileaks
Follow
Germany blocks #Snowden - why we advised #Snowden to take Russia. Not safe elsewhere: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/01/germany-edward-snowden-nsa-inquiry … donate: http://freesnowden.is/
9:39 AM - 1 May 2014

That's a much different claim from the bogus implication that he was forced to go there and they were simply escorting him. Snowden may not have wanted to go to Russia as claimed, but the fact is that he appears not to have had a choice since the group that paid for his accommodations and flight "advised" him to go to Russia.

Fugitive National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden is now traveling and lodging at the expense of WikiLeaks, according to the group’s founder, Julian Assange—a move that lawyers say could expose the whistleblowing organization to new legal charges.

WikiLeaks paid for Snowden’s travel from Hong Kong to Moscow, his lodging, and also his legal counsel, Assange said on a call with reporters Monday in response to a question from The Daily Beast.

“It is correct we paid for those arrangements,” said Assange, who declined to specify Snowden’s current whereabouts. “No government or other organization assisted."

- more -

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/24/wikileaks-foots-the-bill-for-snowden-s-global-escapades.html

From the Rolling Stone piece mentioned the other thread:

Greenwald has a complicated relationship with WikiLeaks and Assange, whom he considers an ally, though given Assange's controversial reputation in the United States, he admits that "Julian stepping forward and being the face of the story wasn't great for Snowden." But he credits Assange with having helped save Snowden from almost certain extradition to the U.S. Snowden, however, never wanted to go to Russia, which Assange acknowledges. "Snowden believed that in order to most effectively push for reform in the U.S., Latin America would be the better option," Assange tells me. "He did not want to invite a political attack that he'd 'defected.'"

Assange, however, disagrees. "While Venezuela and Ecuador could protect him in the short term, over the long term there could be a change in government. In Russia, he's safe, he's well-regarded, and that is not likely to change. That was my advice to Snowden, that he would be physically safest in Russia." Assange also claims that Snowden has proved "you can blow the whistle about national security and not only survive, but thrive."

But how much Snowden is thriving in Russia is unknown. According to his Russian lawyer, Anatoly Kucherena, he has been learning the language and reading Russian literature. (He recently finished Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment.) Snowden also reportedly took a job not long ago at a Russian Internet company. Greenwald, who says he talks with Snowden regularly via encrypted chat, maintains that he knows very few details of Snowden's daily life. "For both his and my own protection, there are questions I stay away from," he says. Radack and Drake recently visited Snowden as part of a whistle-blower delegation; they were whisked to a secret meeting and dinner with him at a stately mansion in or near Moscow. That they were taken in a van with darkened windows, at night, meant they had no idea where they were going. Radack nevertheless insists that Snowden is not being controlled by the Russian intelligence service, the FSB, nor has he become a Russian spy. "Russia treats its spies much better than leaving them trapped in the Sheremetyevo transit zone for over a month," Radack recalled Snowden darkly joking to her.

- more -

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/snowden-and-greenwald-the-men-who-leaked-the-secrets-20131204

Remember, Snowden was entertained at the Russian embassy in Hong Kong.

MOSCOW—President Vladimir Putin conceded that Edward Snowden contacted Russian diplomats in Hong Kong a few days before boarding a plane to Moscow, but said that no agreement was reached to shelter him and that the former U.S. National Security Agency contractor decided on his own to come to Russia.

Mr. Putin had previously said that Mr. Snowden's arrival at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport on June 23 was a "complete surprise."

But in an interview with Russia's Channel One and the Associated Press, released on Wednesday, he acknowledged that he had some prior knowledge that the fugitive might be headed Russia's way.

"Mr. Snowden first appeared in Hong Kong and met with our diplomatic representatives," Mr. Putin said. "It was reported to me that there was such an employee, an employee of the security services. I asked, 'What does he want?' He fights for human rights, for freedom of information and challenges violations of human rights and violations of the law in the United States. I said, 'So what?' "

- more -

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323623304579054890606102138

Castro labels libelous report Cuba blocked Snowden travel

(Reuters) - Retired Cuban president Fidel Castro blasted on Wednesday a report in a Russian newspaper that his country buckled to U.S. pressure and blocked former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden from traveling through Cuba to exile in Latin America.

- more -

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/28/us-usa-security-snowden-cuba-idUSBRE97R0JJ20130828

[sabrina 1]

119. Lots of words, but the fact remains, had the US Govt not revoked his passport he would continued

on his way to Latin America. But for some unknown reason, after Hong Kong refused to detain him on the request of the US Govt, the US made sure he could not continue his journey to the destination he had chosen, which WAS NOT RUSSIA, by revoking his passport. Those are the facts.

Why they did so, is anyone's guess. But the don't get to claim Russia was his destination when that is a blatant lie. Why are lies being told about this? The facts are pretty well know around the globe.

[ProSense]

120. Lots of denial, but Wikileaks paid his way to "safe" Russia. n/t

[sabrina 1]

123. Twisting facts doesn't make them facts. Snowden was on his way to Latin America when the US Govt

forced him to remain in Russia. Enquiring minds want to know WHY the US Govt forced Snowden to remain in Russia. No response so far other than lame attempts to alter the facts. But we will keep on asking regardless.

[ProSense]

124. Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away. You keep repeating something that's not a fact. n/t

[sabrina 1]

126. Absolutely! Snowden would be in Latin America had the US Govt not prevented him from going there!

[ProSense]

128. Again,

"Absolutely! Snowden would be in Latin America had the US Govt not prevented him from going there!"

...that's nonsense. In addition to points made here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892466#post117), the claim about his destination was BS pushed by Assange.

Assange stands by Edward Snowden as Ecuador's Correa reprimands consul

WikiLeaks founder says 'there is no stopping the publishing process' as NSA leaker remains stuck in Moscow airport

Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder, has warned the US government that no matter what it does to try and apprehend Edward Snowden, the revelations he has unearthed on secret digital surveillance of American citizens will see the light of day.

<...>

Speaking to This Week on ABC news from the Ecuadorean embassy in London, where he is fighting extradition to Sweden to face sexual assault allegations, Assange would not go into details. But he added: "Great care has been taken to make sure Mr Snowden cannot be pressured by any state to stop the publishing process."

<...>

The Ecuadorean president, Rafael Correa, told the Associated Press on Sunday that Snowden was "in the care of the Russian authorities" and would not be able to leave Moscow's international airport without his US passport. In a comment that indicated the cautious response of Ecuador to the case, Correa reprimanded Ecuador's consul for issuing Snowden with a letter of safe passage that he is believed to have used to travel from Hong Kong to Russia.

To have done that without consulting the central Ecuadorean government was a "serious error", Correa said. In comments that will not encourage Snowden or his supporters, the Ecuadorean leader added that if Snowden had broken US laws he would have to assume responsibility, adding that the case was "not in Ecuador's hands".

- more -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jun/30/assange-snowden-ecuador-reprimands-consul

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023134665

Ecuador cools on Edward Snowden asylum as Assange frustration grows

President Correa revokes Snowden's temporary travel document amid concerns WikiLeaks founder is 'running the show'

Rory Carroll in Quito and Amanda Holpuch in New York

The plan to spirit the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden to sanctuary in Latin America appears to be unravelling amid tension between Ecuador's government and Julian Assange...President Rafael Correa halted an effort to help Snowden leave Russia amid concern Assange was usurping the role of the Ecuadoran government, according to leaked diplomatic correspondence published on Friday.

Amid signs Quito was cooling with Snowden and irritated with Assange, Correa declared invalid a temporary travel document which could have helped extract Snowden from his reported location in Moscow.

<...>

In a message attributed to Assange sent to Ecuador's foreign minister, Ricardo Patiño, and other top officials, the WikiLeaks founder apologised "if we have unwittingly (caused) Ecuador discomfort in the Snowden matter." The note continued: "There is a fog of war due to the rapid nature of events. If similar events arise you can be assured that they do not originate in any lack of respect or concern for Ecuador or its government."

Assange appears to have had a strong role in obtaining the travel document for Snowden, dated 22 June which bore the printed name, but not signature, of the London consul, Fidel Narvaez, a confidante. By mid-week Narvaez was reportedly in Moscow.

- more -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/edward-snowden-ecuador-julian-assange

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119831

[sabrina 1]

130. It doesn't matter how many times you try to distract from the fact that Snowden was headed for

Latin America but was prevented from leaving Russia, a mere stopover on his way to his chosen destination, by the US GOVT. The question is, 'why'?

[ProSense]

133. Snowden's passport

".It doesn't matter how many times you try to distract from the fact that Snowden was headed for Latin America but was prevented from leaving Russia"

...was revoked in Hong Kong, and Assange faked the travel document from Ecuador.

The story about a Latin American destination is bullshit.

Castro labels libelous report Cuba blocked Snowden travel

(Reuters) - Retired Cuban president Fidel Castro blasted on Wednesday a report in a Russian newspaper that his country buckled to U.S. pressure and blocked former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden from traveling through Cuba to exile in Latin America.

- more -

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/28/us-usa-security-snowden-cuba-idUSBRE97R0JJ20130828

[sabrina 1]

134. Snowden was not headed for Russia. No matter how many times you try to deny that. The US

Govt rescinded his passport preventing him from continuing on his way to his destination. The question is 'why'?

[ProSense]

135. Well,

"Snowden was not headed for Russia. No matter how many times you try to deny that. The US Govt rescinded his passport preventing him from continuing on his way to his destination. The question is 'why'?

...I guess I'll repeat the response you're choosing to ignore: Assange wanted Snowden to go to Russia and faked the travel documents since Snowden's passport was revoked while he was in Hong Kong. Wikileaks paid for Snowden's passage to "safe" Russia.

Fugitive National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden is now traveling and lodging at the expense of WikiLeaks, according to the group’s founder, Julian Assange—a move that lawyers say could expose the whistleblowing organization to new legal charges.

WikiLeaks paid for Snowden’s travel from Hong Kong to Moscow, his lodging, and also his legal counsel, Assange said on a call with reporters Monday in response to a question from The Daily Beast.

“It is correct we paid for those arrangements,” said Assange, who declined to specify Snowden’s current whereabouts. “No government or other organization assisted."

- more -

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/24/wikileaks-foots-the-bill-for-snowden-s-global-escapades.html

From Rolling Stone:

Greenwald has a complicated relationship with WikiLeaks and Assange, whom he considers an ally, though given Assange's controversial reputation in the United States, he admits that "Julian stepping forward and being the face of the story wasn't great for Snowden." But he credits Assange with having helped save Snowden from almost certain extradition to the U.S. Snowden, however, never wanted to go to Russia, which Assange acknowledges. "Snowden believed that in order to most effectively push for reform in the U.S., Latin America would be the better option," Assange tells me. "He did not want to invite a political attack that he'd 'defected.'"

Assange, however, disagrees. "While Venezuela and Ecuador could protect him in the short term, over the long term there could be a change in government. In Russia, he's safe, he's well-regarded, and that is not likely to change. That was my advice to Snowden, that he would be physically safest in Russia." Assange also claims that Snowden has proved "you can blow the whistle about national security and not only survive, but thrive."

But how much Snowden is thriving in Russia is unknown. According to his Russian lawyer, Anatoly Kucherena, he has been learning the language and reading Russian literature. (He recently finished Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment.) Snowden also reportedly took a job not long ago at a Russian Internet company. Greenwald, who says he talks with Snowden regularly via encrypted chat, maintains that he knows very few details of Snowden's daily life. "For both his and my own protection, there are questions I stay away from," he says. Radack and Drake recently visited Snowden as part of a whistle-blower delegation; they were whisked to a secret meeting and dinner with him at a stately mansion in or near Moscow. That they were taken in a van with darkened windows, at night, meant they had no idea where they were going. Radack nevertheless insists that Snowden is not being controlled by the Russian intelligence service, the FSB, nor has he become a Russian spy. "Russia treats its spies much better than leaving them trapped in the Sheremetyevo transit zone for over a month," Radack recalled Snowden darkly joking to her.

- more -

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/snowden-and-greenwald-the-men-who-leaked-the-secrets-20131204

[sabrina 1]

136. Again, Snowden's destination was Latin America, NOT Russia. I know, it kind of kills the

'he fled to commie Russia' talking point, but facts are facts.

Funny, you should try to use Assange to back up your claims. I though Assange was 'persona non grata' these days.

Lol, so now Assange is NOT a 'rapist' but a 'credible source' to back up the 'commie' talking points re Snowden.

Best to stick to facts, that way you don't get tied up in knots trying to decide who are the good guys and who are not.

Snowden did NOT 'flee to Russia' period.

[ProSense]

137. Why did Assange fake a document and pay for his flight to Russia?

"Funny, you should try to use Assange to back up your claims. I though Assange was 'persona non grata' these days."

Actually, it's more "funny" that you want to dismiss Assange because his words refute your claims.

[WillyT]

13. And, Let Me Add... Singing Hymnals All The Way To Destruction...

Dear Benjamin... Turns Out... They Couldn't Keep It.

[zappaman]

3. One of the things I love about the "new" DU

is threads like this!
Nice to get the info.

[Cha]

4. One of the features I love about DU is the information we get no matter who wants to

suppress! They can go pout.

[Cali_Democrat]

10. Ya...but......

STASI!!!!!

[Cha]

14. "Authoritarian!"!!!1111

Rolf

[stonecutter357]

53. this^^^^^^

[DCBob]

6. Considering there must be about a million purchases a minute..

They must be passing like lightspeed across his screen.

What a moron.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. LOL

No kidding.

Snowden is pure comedy gold.

[FSogol]

18. Here's what Snowden saw:

Just to the right of Mr. Smith #3 you can clearly see my purchase of tasty Ho-Hos and a six pack of Pale Ale.

[randome]

19. FINALLY we know!

If Snowden knows how NSA intelligence analysts work, why won't he say how they work? He never does. He ALWAYS talks in generalities, never specifics.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[JDPriestly]

86. Greenwald has promised more revelations. Snowden is letting the documents speak for themselves.

Of course, you have to be intelligent enough to understand what it means for a FISA court to issue an order requiring, say, Verizon to open its records to the NSA's agents. If you have never worked with the kinds of records in question, you may not understand or be able to imagine just how sweeping the capacity of the NSA is. Just the collection of such vast quantities of metadata couple with the NSA's huge computers and their capacity to analyze the metadata is frightening to me. It means that with very little trouble and in a very short time, the NSA can identify our political leanings and categorize us. What else would they be doing with all that information? Making sure we pay our bills? I don't think so. The only purpose that I can imagine that the NSA could possibly have for collecting the metadata and our internet activity would be political surveillance. They don't need to collect all that information in order to solve crimes that have taken place. They have the ability to get that data when related to a criminal investigation without the NSA's sweeping surveillance. They say they want to use it to prevent crime. But the fact is that one of the basic principles of our tradition of law and human rights is that you are innocent until proven guilty. If the NSA is collecting the metadata in order to determine who is likely to commit a crime and then stop that person, it is violating a basic tenet in our legal system.

Snowden is letting the documents talk. He doesn't give specifics when he is giving a speech in an award ceremony. He just wants to show his gratitude for the award and not go on and on in detail about what he did at the NSA.

I realize that a lot of people do not like Snowden. His message is frightening. People want to believe that Obama would not allow such a horrific violation of our privacy and human rights. Unfortunately Obama is allowing that violation of our privacy and human rights.

But I see a lot of overreaching on DU by people who want to say something negative about Snowden but, because he is basically a pretty humble guy who came forward simply because he thought it was right, because unlike most people at the NSA he had a conscience and the courage to foolow it, just can't find anything important to criticize him for, post silly, very short, meaningless posts jabbing at Snowden as a person.

That is the response of a person whose intellect is not well developed. Oh, well. takes all kinds. Randome, we often converse on DU. It's always a pleasure.

[DCBob]

24. I think I see my bag of groceries.

Ha!

[Whisp]

31. LOL!!! thankyou thankyou thankyou

That was masterful!

[Number23]

48. Okay, I see it. So we're just supposed to ignore the stuff on the floor that mentions your purchase

of a "plump" Swedish bride? And don't even get me started on what's in the code on the ceiling.

[FSogol]

52. Swedish? Hope Mrs. FSogol isn't looking?

[Ikonoklast]

125. What's more impressive is your purchase of a gross of

"Magnum" brand condoms.

Every month.


Damn.

[Tarheel_Dem]

103. !!!

[Maedhros]

33. I think you are misunderstanding.

He did not claim to see all purchases, just those from individuals he could target.

Pretty simple, really. You may want to reconsider your comment.

[DCBob]

37. see post 20.

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. Who doesn't know that? Where is Captain Obvious when you need him!

[Vattel]

45. No, a moron would think he was claiming to see them all.

[SwankyXomb]

51. Noithing like a Snowden thread

to bring the morons out on both sides. (Not you, just in general).

[JDPriestly]

85. Should you be targeted by the NSA or someone with a personal vendetta against you who happens

to work for the NSA, you might reconsider your comment. Sure, there must be about a million purchases a minute. The NSA will not be looking at all purchase by all people at all times. But if you are their target, or if, even for a good reason, you make a purchase that catches their eye, your purchase could flash across a screen somewhere in the NSA system.

And if the NSA really thinks you are interesting your whole life could be unraveled before a perfect stranger on the screen at an NSA desk.

Granted, under the Obama administration, you and I can feel pretty sure that we are probably not NSA targets. I don't know about you, but I am a 70-year-old female retiree with kids and grandkids, no interest in guns or violence who gets along well with all her neighbors. I'm not likely to be an NSA person of interest. You probably are not either.


But we cannot be sure that our nation will always be as wisely governed as it is today under the Obama administration. How about Franco's Spain? Must I once again remind people about Communist countries in Eastern Europe? Or Germany and Italy under the NAZIs and Fascists?

And do you realize how easily a nation can fall into an economic crisis or internal upheaval that makes it eaiser for such extremists to take power? I hope that never happens here, but we should in the interest of our freedom and to make sure that should such a government ever take power here, they would have to start from scratch to build the surveillance capacity that the NSA now has, stop the NSA in its tracks. Our country is not in a state of upheaval or insurrection (other than the Bundy fools). Our leadership should not be so paranoid that they have to have a surveillance apparatus ready or in use.

The NSA surveillance needs to be sharply curtailed or totally ended. It's just a very dangerous capacity to allow anyone to have in our country. And its existence violates our Constitution in numerous ways including by violating the idea of separation of powers. It concentrates way too much power in the executive branch, power over the other two branches.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

111. +1. Some people here are being willfully ignorant or just plain disingenuous.

Given the history of actions against people like MLK and Abbie Hoffman, it doesn't take much imagination to see how this surveillance system can be abused by people in power to further their own interests and why they would want such a system in place.

[JDPriestly]

138. Thank you.

[DCBob]

140. Of course my comment was somewhat facetious...

Last edited Sat May 3, 2014, 11:16 AM - Edit history (1)

but Snowden's comment was meant to be interpreted that way to generate as much controversy and attention as possible. If he said what you said most people couldn't care less.. as you indicated they would only be tracking those persons of interest for which they have warrants. That's fine with most folks, I believe.

As far are as trying to stop future Administrations from abusing their power.. good luck with that.. Bush/Cheney has shown how much Republicans care about the rule of law.. remember Cheney's response.. "So?".

[JDPriestly]

141. The problem is that, of course, they are not just tracking people for whom they have warrants.

They are collecting metadata on everyone.

A commission wrote a report for President Obama on the dangers to our privacy that the collection of data and metadata pose for us. It is an excellent report and I think it is on WhiteHouse.gov, but I can't find the link at the moment. It is long but worth reading. I hope you will run across it.

[DCBob]

142. The comment was about purchases flashing across Snowden's screen.

Those, presumably, would only be from those individuals for whom they have warrants.

[JDPriestly]

143. Hard to say. I don't work for the NSA so I really have to take Snowden's word for it.

Snowden has nothing to gain by lying. As we saw when Clapper lied to Congress, people in the NSA and the government in general have a lot to gain by lying. So I trust Snowden more.

On edit, the NSA admits that there have been completely unauthorized abuses of the ability to access the personal information and specific data by NSA employees or contract workers. Apparently all or most of the instances that the NSA admits to were self-reported, that is, reported by those who illicitly and without authorization viewed the personal information. So, that suggests to me that the NSA is assuming that all within the NSA who violated the rules and viewed information they weren't supposed to be had the capacity to access have admitted their crimes/mistakes/whatever. I don't believe that for a moment. The limited number of cases in which the transgressions and illicit snooping were self-reported are, I would guess, knowing how people work, just the tip of the iceberg.

[DCBob]

144. snowden has much to gain by lying..

He has suddenly become an international celebrity. I also suspect he is preparing for a book deal and follow on movie.

[JDPriestly]

145. But no steady job. I'm waiting for the NSA to prove that what Snowden has said is wrong.

Remember. Snowden came out with documents, and we have not seen all of them.

We will probably never see most of them because the news media has the job of deciding which of the documents should be made public.

Being a celebrity -- stuck in Russia.

A book deal and a movie? I know someone who sold a best seller. He lives well, but the pressure is on to write the next book, the pressure is constantly on to write the next book.

Besides. People don't buy the book or watch the movie of a liar. If Snowden risked lying, his book would not bring him much.

Snowden's best interests are served by telling the truth, the shocking truth, but the truth.

And it is relative. Compared to the interest of the NSA in lying, Snowden's interest in telling the truth is very, very great.

[DCBob]

146. You will be waiting awhile..

Of course NSA is not going to respond to every absurd claim Snowden makes.. for obvious reasons... am Im sure Snowden knows that.

[grasswire]

7. those awards just keep piling up!

Congratulations, Ed!

[WillyT]

15. Nobel Is Next...

[randome]

9. How the hell would a systems analyst have the faintest idea...

...what an NSA intelligence employee could do? Still more maybes, could-haves, might-haves. No evidence of a thing. Just formless fears.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

16. Shrug.

Who do you think designs the systems the NSA uses? Here's a hint. Systems analysts. Got my masters in systems analysis, spent over a decade.... designing systems (hardware, software, security, database admin, etc.)

Those systems don't just magically appear for employees to use. Systems analysts are setting up the systems. And have far greater access to the systems than any end user, because they're also the ones called in to fix problems or add new features.

[randome]

17. Monitoring transactions is not some hardware dependent attachment.

The only thing that prevents an NSA analyst from doing everything Snowden claims is rigid rules and bureaucratic procedures. If Snowden knows anything about that, why won't he say?

The most likely answer is that he knows very little. Look at what he's saying in this article. Nothing specific. All of it couched in generic terms. I think it's more likely he doesn't know a thing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[harun]

21. They didn't pay him over 200k a year to install MS Word. Wake up.

[randome]

22. And yet he never mentions specifics.

It's always generalized terms such as, "I saw things" or "If I wanted to, I could..."

Why won't he explain how those systems work? Answer: he doesn't know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[SMC22307]

49. Critics sound like wingnuts mocking Al Gore for his internet comments.

Makes you wonder whose "side" they're really on.

[harun]

95. We know what side they are on.

[DesMoinesDem]

93. LOL. No evidence of a thing. I can't believe you're still using that.

I think it's time you called Congress and the President and let them know Snowden made it all up! He just created some powerpoints in his box filled garage with his fiance (amiright?) while trying to figure out what FTP is.

[randome]

109. You mean the Powerpoints that identified how info is transmitted to NSA?

What's illegal about that? Any context provided by Snowden? None. Of course Google and Microsoft and everyone else have a secure FTP server system set up to transmit data they are legally obligated to transmit under valid warrants.

That is what we're supposed to be upset about?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

112. Not only did Snowden create the PowerPoints, what he invented is legal!

People are getting all worked up for nothing! Its all in their heads!

[randome]

114. The Powerpoint slides appear to be authentic.

Their interpretation was wildly off the mark. Snowden didn't even understand what a secure FTP server is. What a 'genius'!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

129. Totally. He doesn't even know what secure ftp is and couldn't understand the PowerPoint slides

And neither could any journalists or politicians or anyone else that has looked at the slides. Plus Snowden left his fiance. Thankfully we have you to set it straight.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

12. Not surprising.

And neither are the comments. It's rather obvious to anyone who understands what computers can do that Snowden wouldn't give a crap about somebody's tires, and wouldn't be watching 'millions of purchases' flow across his screen. What he's saying would obviously be that he could, with selective pulls of data from databases, see the purchases made by a given individual (as he specifically notes), or track purchases from specific stores or of specific items. Again, not surprising - it's exactly the sort of thing leos would want to be able to do, to track things like ammonium nitrate (nitrite? Can't remember which it is, don't really care.) purchases or what the Bundy militia folks are buying.

[DCBob]

20. if that is what he meant then thats different.

However the way he said it implied he was watching all of us.. which im sure was his intent to generate maximum outrage and attention. Hes still a moron.

[Maedhros]

35. I can think of someone else deserving of that moniker.

Also deserving of the ignore list.

[DCBob]

38. as if..

[Skittles]

40. be careful with that, Maedhros

some of them are good for entertainment value

[Maedhros]

72. Nah. I have a rule: posters that drive-by with unfounded insults get canned.

They are fools who waste my time.

[JI7]

23. i can't stop laughing

[Cali_Democrat]

26. Indeed

A very Palinesque statement....

[AverageJoe90]

29. Not so sure I can believe this.

Snowden's been known to blow things outta proportion sometimes, even if he does include some truth here and there.....

[SidDithers]

30. Warren /Snowden 2016!!...nt

Sid

[winter is coming]

34. He could? And he didn't bother to tell me that those barely bootcut jeans would be too tight?

To the dungeons!!

[nationalize the fed]

41. Exactly. The loss of the 4th amendment is hilarious.

The people that died for the Bill of Rights can't even complain!

No confidential data from any business would ever be mishandled, would it.

Nope, our new overseers would never lie to us

“...it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother”

[ProSense]

47. "The loss of the 4th amendment is" not "hilarious,"

Snowden's comment was utterly ridiculous. Your point is simply deflection.

[Vattel]

58. You honestly expect to convince people who are not idiots

that Snowden was claiming to see all purchases? I mean, if you are gonna effectively smear someone, you got to do better than that.

[ProSense]

60. Well,

"You honestly expect to convince people who are not idiots that Snowden was claiming to see all purchases?"

...I guess that's one way to defend Snowden's absurd comment: claim that people who see it as such are "idiots."

I mean, they're clearly not as smart as the folks who tried to claim Snowden playing Putin's tool was "brave" and "brilliant."

[Vattel]

62. It's painfully obvious that Snowden was saying

that if he had your email address he could see your purchases on his computer screen. It is so simple, really. So my suggestion is that you stop embarrassing yourself.

[ProSense]

64. No,

"It's painfully obvious that Snowden was saying that if he had your email address he could see your purchases on his computer screen. It is so simple, really. So my suggestion is that you stop embarrassing yourself."

...what's "painfully obvious" is Snowden is making stupid claims that he can't back up. Frankly, what's "embarrassing" are the attempts to justify his claim by simply stating a potential.

[Vattel]

66. sad

[ProSense]

67. Embarrassing. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

108. How about the "idiots" who thought this was a brilliant tactical move, before they didn't?

SNOWDEN IN RUSSIA: A 'PUBLIC SERVICE' BECOMES A 'MISTAKE'

Even today, in the most recent Economist/YouGov Poll, although 60% agree that he performed a public service by letting Americans know about the NSA’s surveillance activities, even more—68% -- agree that he hurt his case when he took asylum in Russia.

https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/04/23/snowden-russia/

Snowden’s Camp: Staged Putin Q&A Was a Screw-Up

Even the NSA leaker’s closest advisers now say his appearance on a Kremlin call-in show, which touched off yet another international firestorm, was a mistake.

NSA leaker Edward Snowden instantly regretted asking Russian President Vladimir Putin a softball question on live television about the Kremlin’s mass surveillance effort, two sources close to the leaker tell The Daily Beast.

“It certainly didn’t go as he would’ve hoped,” one of these sources said. “I don’t think there’s any shame in saying that he made an error in judgment.”

“He basically viewed the question as his first foray into criticizing Russia. He was genuinely surprised that in reasonable corridors it was seen as the opposite,” added Ben Wizner, the American Civil Liberties Union attorney who serves as one of Snowden’s closest advisers.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/20/snowden-s-camp-staged-putin-q-a-was-a-screw-up.html

If he was trying to win converts at home, he failed miserably, as did his whacked out "supporters". He took direction from Wikileaks? Really?

[ProSense]

46. Former NSA contractor Snowden expects to remain in Russia

Former NSA contractor Snowden expects to remain in Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892859

[tularetom]

50. Yeah well, hope he enjoyed the porn

[George II]

54. Guess he's getting lonely again...what's it been, like two weeks since he's seen his name in print?

[stonecutter357]

55. K&R

[UTUSN]

57. "work with Congress" - is this TheOnion?!1

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. Bill Maher sure had Snowden pegged didn't he?

I think Snowden spent WAAAAAYYYY too much time listening to Alex Jones......

[Whisp]

68. Is that where Maher called Snowden fucking nuts?

To the part where Snowden said the NSA knows your every friend and everything you discuss with your friends.

ooooo boy.

Did he Really listen to Alex Jones? You may be pulling my leg but Snowden certainly sounds crazy enough to.

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. I am pretty sure it was Alex Jones or some such rot....

Maher said "every time Snowden opens his mouth....crazy shit flies out".

[caseymoz]

61. English being my native tongue . . .

. . . it's a cinch for me to understand that Snowden is using "you" as an idiomatic abstract and not a personal pronoun. What he meant was (and explained later in the OP) is that if had any person's email or IP address, he could easily get information about them in so much detail he could see where they bought tires.

He didn't mean that whenever anybody, anywhere made a tire purchase, he received an alert. The stupidity isn't in his statement, but in your mistranslation of what's presumably your native tongue. It's commonly known as twisting somebody's words. How antisense of you. You should be ashamed.

I find it hard to believe you'd misinterpret this common idiomatic usage of "you" for any reason but as a lame attempt to make someone look bad. I suppose that's more fun than losing any sleep over Snowden's meaning.

Posts like yours that make me seldom show up on the Democratic Underground now. They caused my ignore list to grow exponentially while I was here. It turns discussion here into Limbaugh Light with similar effect on my blood pressure.

Any response to this will not be answered. You're on ignore.

[ProSense]

63. Well

"He didn't mean that whenever anybody, anywhere made a tire purchase, he received an alert. The stupidity isn't in his statement, but in your mistranslation of what's presumably your native tongue. It's commonly known as twisting somebody's words. How antisense of you. You should be ashamed.

I find it hard to believe you'd misinterpret this common idiomatic usage of 'you' for any reason but as a lame attempt to make someone look bad. I suppose that's more fun than losing any sleep over Snowden's meaning. "

..."English being my native tongue," I find it hard to believe that you felt it necessary to offer that as a defense of his stupid comment.

I mean, you claim: "What he meant was (and explained later in the OP)"

No, he said "what he meant," and it's right there in the OP. "Explained later"? The OP is the last graphs of the piece. His comment is at the end of the second to last graph.

That kind makes the condescension in your post a "lame" attempt to justify the "stupidity" in his statement.

[hughee99]

70. For someone who spends a good bit of time explaining what someone really meant,

and especially when it was said by an experienced politician, you sure seem to be willing to take someone's words literally when it suits your argument.

[ProSense]

71. Huh?

"For someone who spends a good bit of time explaining what someone really meant, and especially when it was said by an experienced politician, you sure seem to be willing to take someone's words literally when it suits your argument."

What the hell are you talking about? I don't put words into the mouths of "experienced" politicians. They can speak for themselves.

As for taking someone's words "literally," are you suggesting that his words be ignored in favor of any spin that comes along?

I mean, this is not the first time Snowden has made this bullshit claim.

[hughee99]

76. How many threads did you get into trying to explain what "if you like your plan,

you can keep it" really meant, or posting someone else's explanation of what the president really meant? These just took me a few seconds to find.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023949747
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023948938
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3939407

[ProSense]

77. WTF? Where did I comment in those OPs?

And how does my opinion at that last link equal "explaining what someone really meant"?

"These just took me a few seconds to find." LOL!

You comment makes no sense.

[hughee99]

81. You posted explanations of what the president really meant.

Why was this necessary? I heard him say it. You mean it didn't come out, or wasn't interpreted EXACTLY the way he intended it? Apparently, sometimes even seasoned politicians don't have their statements understood the way the intended them. Sometimes they don't even say things clearly enough on the first try, and then a lawyer, Cabinet member or press secretary has to come out and explain why what a seasoned politician said isn't as clear-cut as it was stated originally.

God help us all if a repuke gets elected in 2016, but at least I'll be able to come here to read your posts. I'm curious if some repuke Administration continues a policy from the current administration if you're going to defend them, or if you're going to tapdance around and trying to explain why the policy that hasn't changed is ACTUALLY some new policy, and it's wrong.

You seem like a pretty dedicated person to me, so my money is on defending the policy as legal. Hopefully it will be a long time before we find out.

[ProSense]

82. LOL! So you were talking about articles I posted?

"God help us all if a repuke gets elected in 2016, but at least I'll be able to come here to read your posts. I'm curious if some repuke Administration continues a policy from the current administration if you're going to defend them, or if you're going to tapdance around and trying to explain why the policy that hasn't changed is ACTUALLY some new policy, and it's wrong."

You know, some people spend way too much time overthinking stuff, especially when it comes to false equivalencies.

Snowden supporters and advisers say Clinton's remarks were unrealistic and reflect several factual misunderstandings about his predicament. They say he could not have availed himself of whistleblower protections because he was not a government employee (he worked for contractor Booz Allen) and his claims would not have been viewed as exposing any impropriety because authorities in all three branches of government had blessed the NSA telephone program as legal. A federal judge not privy to the program before the leaks later ruled it unconstitutional, but that decision is on appeal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024871696

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892625#post7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024892625#post62

[VanillaRhapsody]

65. This is some revelation to you?

did you not know that this technology exists? That is why it is soooo funny!

[caseymoz]

74. No, it's still no laughing matter.

Because in that version, it likely implies DARPA entrapped our society into the biggest surveillance conspiracy ever with the Internet, and convinced people along the way that there's no problem with it! So, the whole National Defense purpose of the Internet seems to be it allows the government to do surveillance on everyone. It's not about information. It's not about commerce. It's not about social networking. This might mean that every benefit of it is going to be frittered away, and the only thing we're going to left with is the surveillance. See the FCC's new rules on Net Neutrality as the first chip from the foundation.

That's not funny. That's a horror story, and it does Orwell one better.

[VanillaRhapsody]

75. Yes it is....this has been the case for a long long time...

I saw a guy do exactly this more than 10 yrs ago.....

The Internet is digital...

[ProSense]

69. "Snowden says that he had "the authorities" to wiretap anyone -- even the President."

Snowden says that he had "the authorities" to wiretap anyone -- even the President.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022979825

[hueymahl]

73. You know what is funny

When I read this post I thought, damn, ole ProSense has finally seen the light and posted a post in support of stronger whistleblower protections, and it even cast her object of frequent ridicule, Edward Snowden, in a positive light.

Little did I know you actually view this as a negative article on Snowden. Though why, is still beyond me. But your follow-up comments to other posts make it clear to me that is the case.

Like I said, funny. Just not the LOL kind of funny.

[ProSense]

80. You know what's more "funny"?

"When I read this post I thought, damn, ole ProSense has finally seen the light and posted a post in support of stronger whistleblower protections, and it even cast her object of frequent ridicule, Edward Snowden, in a positive light."

I have no idea who you are, and sincerely doubt you've read most of my posts. Funnier still...the rest of your comment.

[hueymahl]

105. You sure do roll on the floor laughing a lot.

Apparently in lieu of an substantive comment.

[ProSense]

110. Wait

"Apparently in lieu of an substantive comment."

...are you under the impression that your first comment in this thread was "substantive"?

[ecstatic]

78. "pull you out of the shower naked at gunpoint"

Republicans always manage to insert something sexual into their paranoid fantasies.

[cascadiance]

132. The only mistake Snowden made is underestimating the extent he will get mischaracterized...

... in his statements by those that continue to want to put out character assassinations of him to protect those that want to protect the growing police state we have in place just because the current corporatist in charge of it happens to be labeled a Democrat.

I doubt that NSA whistleblower William Binney found his VERY REAL experience facing FBI agents with guns pointed at him in his shower a "sexual fantasy"!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/us/leaks-inquiries-show-how-wide-a-net-is-cast.html?_r=1&

Mr. Binney, 69, who retired from the N.S.A. in 2001, was one of several people investigated in an inquiry into a 2005 Times article on the spy agency’s warrantless wiretapping program.

He was cleared of any wrongdoing, but the investigation derailed his career and changed his life. Starting in March 2007, Mr. Binney said, he was interviewed by the F.B.I. three times and felt he had cooperated fully.

But in July 2007, a dozen agents appeared at his house in Severn, Md. One of them ran upstairs and entered the bathroom where Mr. Binney was toweling off after a shower, pointing a gun at him.

Agents carried away a computer, disks and personal and business records. Last year, he and three former N.S.A. colleagues went to federal court to get the confiscated items back; he is still waiting for some of them.

[stevenleser]

83. Again he proves himself a hyperbolic and sophomoric fool and again his supporters refuse to see it.

I think that is basically who he is, a hyperbolic and sophomoric fool.

Although I will admit that at times, I wonder if this is a deliberate con and hoax and he is punking the people who support him because this act is just too obviously over the top for anyone who isn't blind.

[jmowreader]

87. We need to talk about this

The intelligence services practice "compartmentalization." Also known as "the need to know," compartmentalization gives you access only to the information you need to do your job. If I was working the Narcotics desk and my job was to track shipments of heroin worldwide, I wouldn't have access to satellite photos of North Korean missile launches.

From everything I can gather, the job Edward Snowden was hired to do was to pull maintenance on computers. There is no fucking way in HELL that an IT guy, whether he be from KBR, Booz Allen Hamilton, IBM, Dell or the Army, would routinely need to track e-commerce data to do his job. (Right now you're thinking, "what if he needed to see it to be sure a computer was processing it?" He wouldn't. Not at his level. Maybe a programmer would, but not an IT tech. And if he DID need to see traffic to test something, they have "test tapes" - files they generated in-house that are similar to the live traffic the program will work with.)

So we have two possible alternatives: he's lying about this - and if he's lying about that, what ELSE is he lying about? - or he was screwing with shit he wasn't supposed to be, which is another federal offense to add to the very long list he's already racked up.

[ProSense]

88. Yes, we do. n/t

[MineralMan]

92. I know who can see every purchase I make and everywhere I go on the web.

Amazon. Google. The bank that issues my credit and debit card. My cable company. Other websites. And they use that information constantly to try to get me to buy some more stuff. Everywhere I go, I see references to what I buy, and even to what I look at on the Internet. That's who is watching what I do, not the NSA.

And they do it very, very well and intently. They're very interested in my purchases and interests, and they're interested in your purchases and interests. The NSA couldn't give a shit what you or I buy, or anyone else who isn't a target of their investigations. They could see it if they wanted to, just like Amazon, Google, and my bank can, but they don't give a shit.

We're looking at the wrong people when we start worrying about our imagined "privacy." In the first place, we don't have any privacy. We gave it up long ago to the banks and the stores and the other places where we do business. And we did it willingly. If anyone needs something to worry about, that would be my suggestion. Worry about all those people who do care what you buy, look at, or covet during the day. Those people are watching what you do. They're doing that because you're of interest to them.

The NSA is not interested in me or you or anyone else on DU. Why would they be? But Amazon and Google and all of those other corporations are very interested and are actively doing what people are insisting that the NSA is doing.

It would be funny, but it's not, and we give our permission for that kind of intrusive surveillance.

[Whisp]

98. Excellent post, MM

I would wager that there are far less restrictions on corporate spying and privacy intrusions than there are for the NSA. Now THAT bothers me, a lot. Whether the NSA is going to want to bother to see what I talk about on the phone or the internet is at about 5,985th on the list of things that I fear.

Look over here! (NSA), Snowden says with a sly grin, but not over There! (Corp). Would be so Libertarian of him.

[DCBob]

100. +1

[Jamaal510]

106. Your post

should be its own thread.

[MineralMan]

107. Thanks. i just made it a new thread.

[ljm2002]

113. First, we did not give up our privacy willingly...

...it's not like people were asked whether they wanted to be tracked or not. Automated systems have evolved very rapidly. Even before the Internet boom, our activities and purchases were being monitored by the private sector. I think most people did not realize the extent of it. Although most of us have realized other aspects of it, such as the mountains of paperwork is required to live a pretty normal middle class life these days; or the depersonalization of our dealings. Gone are the days when your friendly local banker would give you a couple days' grace to replenish the old bank account... Of course there have always been hard-hearted bankers, don't get me wrong; but it used to be a bit more personal, whereas these days it's very much not personal, and we are ruled by a bunch of fine print that most of us have never read and would need a law degree to properly interpret in the first place.

So anyway, while your comments about our privacy are true -- it has been eroded long before the widespread government surveillance revealed by Snowden, and by private companies -- that does not at all negate the issues of government surveillance, as distinguished from private company surveillance. If Google surveills my online activities, they gather just what Google can gather in the course of their commercial activities. Ditto the phone company, the ISP, Amazon, etc. They do not (yet) pool their data into one giant conglomerate data portrait of yours truly. Whereas the government can, and does, do exactly that. Not only that, the government has the ability to do bad things to me, including the ability to make my life difficult, to incarcerate me, or even kill me.

Now of course, I don't think I am a target currently. But that isn't really the point, is it? The point is, that any of us could be targeted, and for trumped-up reasons. We've seen it happen before: the FBI targeting peaceful activists, for just one example. It would be naive to assume these facilities have not already been used for blackmail purposes.

We won't be able to stop all improper surveillance. But it is important for us to codify what we believe to be the right balance. Right now, the technology ran so fast, we got left in the dust vis a vis putting privacy protections in place.

[Arkana]

94. So he saw me buy that 12-inch dildo in the shape of a dragon penis?

[randome]

96. We all did.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Whisp]

99. That's why it's not believable Snowden claims to have emailed his complaints

to the NSA while he was still working there.

If he was tech he had no right to be hacking into the information he claimed he saw - that was not in his job description to be looking at your 12 incher.

So he tattled on himself then?
Snowden's emails:

S: Hey big bosses, I was hacking around and found Arkana's dildo pass by my screen and I don't think you have the right to that kind of information.
BBes: What are you doing looking at secure documents, that is not what you were hired for. You breached security.
S: oops, no, no I didn't say that. really. You misunderstand me. Everyone misunderstands me. That's not what I said even though I said it.

[Number23]

131. Just don't accidendally blurt out "dracarys!!" when you're "using" it

[Rosa Luxemburg]

101. Safeway knows what I buy too

[Tarheel_Dem]

104. I agree with Bill Maher, everytime this idiot opens his mouth, he says something "fuckin' stupid".

[MADem]

139. And now, when Eddie makes a purchase, or makes a sandwich, or takes a crap,

PUTIN can see it at HIS desk, crossing HIS screen!

Heckuva job, Eddie!