It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

[Jesus Malverde]

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.

"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbor.

Read More: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

[stevenleser]

1. That is some pretty funny spin.

For starters, the 'unelected government' as the article calls it, as one of its first acts, called for elections May 25th. That pretty much destroys 80%-90% of the arguments this article and others attempt to make.

[Jesus Malverde]

2. It's May 1st

'unelected government' making deals with the IMF, press-ganging soldiers, appointing oligarchs to the provinces...sounds legit.

At least crimea actually had a vote.

[Bluenorthwest]

3. Of course, Crimea was a safe vote, considering the ethnic cleansing of the Tartars was long done

and that majority long moved onto their lands. 'We put the locals on boxcars, refused their return, never paid them a dime, moved our own people in, waited a few years and had an election, guess what, we won!'
It takes some serious contempt for minorities to not just kill and deport them, but then to pretend it never happened and your 'majority' was eternal, natural and always.

[malaise]

4. Bwaaaaaaaaah

Replace Tartars with indigenous American Indians and let's restart this discussion

[Bluenorthwest]

6. We would be speaking about members of my family, 'bwaaaah' yourself.

I'm happy to have that discussion. It is the pro Russia folks who refuse to acknowledge the history of crimes against humanity in Crimea. Crimea being the subject at hand. Changing the subject to my grandmother does not really make the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Tatars vanish, does it?
If you were honest, you would admit that I spoke only of Crimea, I did not say 'oh the US is wonderful' I said it is wrong to do what was done to the Tatars then run around claiming it never happened, which is what you are trying to do here. It happened, just like the Trail of Tears happened, only in 1944.
In your world, the suffering of my ancestors is nothing but fodder for your defense of crimes done to other people and their ancestors. And you laugh about it.

[malaise]

7. I am not trying to deny the evils of either Russia or the USA

All I know is that the US started the mess in Ukraine this time. Russian history is well known.

Careful re ancestry - we're all full of surprises.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. I pointed out historical crimes against humanity and your response was to laugh and

say 'the US is worse'. Whatever you need to tell yourself.

[okaawhatever]

11. What makes you think we started this? nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. Because. Victoria Nuland. Cookies. Duh!

[okaawhatever]

15. See, there is a reason Girl Scouts wear Green Berets. nt

[Jesus Malverde]

21. You did hear the tapes of the neocon neuland discussing who would be

Last edited Fri May 2, 2014, 11:32 AM - Edit history (1)

The appropriate government for the ukrainians. You know the one where she famously said "fuck the EU".

The talk wasn't about democracy, it was NEOCON regime change.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. Here at DU, we discuss who we believe should be the appropriate President.

Fans of NFL teams debate who their team should draft.

In other words, so what?

Just because they had persons who they preferred to see in charge doesn't mean they made it happen.

[socialist_n_TN]

25. Yeah, I'm sure the US State Department had no influence at ALL.....

They never do! Do I really need the thingy?

And lest everybody claim I'm a "Putinista" (or whatever the preferred term today is), I'm not a fan of Russian imperialism either. Ukrainians should solve Ukrainian problems from the bottom up.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. Not nearly as much influence as some people claim they do. nt

[stevenleser]

33. Even if the worst spin of that intercept is right. It doesn't come close to justifying Moscow's acts

Let's start with the premise that your spin is right. Nuland and the state department (not to mention the EU) egged on the Maidan protesters in the most shamefully overt way. And let's say the US state department meddled shamelessly in the negotiations once the problems reached a climax.

So what?

Involvement in the negotiations once the problems reached a climax is completely unremarkable. Countries diplomatic arms 'meddle' in negotiations like this all the time. And in terms of the Maidan protesters, those folks wanted to join the EU all along for years. This is not a recent issue. It only reached a head in November because Yanukovich finally said it was never going to happen. What if the Russian's encouraged Americans to revolt over drug legalization or NSA Surveillance. Again, so what? If a segment of the populace here has a legitimate beef that isn't being addressed, that is not the Russian's fault.

I can tell you that if you look at the UN Charter, you will find nothing in it that says that this behavior justifies an armed invasion and annexation of the territory so invaded. In fact, where you would find an appropriate reference is under the Geneva conventions under the heading "Unprovoked war of aggression".

[independentpiney]

9. Crimea had been historically and culturally Russian long before Stalins deportations of the Tartars

along with those he did of ethnic minorities from other areas of the Soviet Union. Not to mention the Tartars preferred Ottoman Empire that tsarist Russia won Crimea from didn't have a great history with regards to ethnic minorities either, as any Armenian would point out. There's no clean hands here historically. Sorry about your ancestors, but the 'what about the Tartars' line is one of the weaker anti-Russian arguments.

[Xithras]

17. The Tatars were already a minority before they were removed

It's not as if Russia stacked the deck. In 1939, long before Stalin had them removed, they were already only 19% of the population in Crimea.

You have to remember that the Tatars themselves never heavily populated Crimea, so the Russian's were able to achieve a population majority without displacing them.

When discussing the Tatars, you also have to be wary of comparisons between them and the Native Americans, which I see was posted elsewhere in this discussion. The native population of Crimea was actually Greek and Scythian. The Greeks lived on the peninsula for over a thousand years, and the closest existing descendants of the Scythians are the modern Georgians. The Tatars only settled in Crimea during the Middle Ages after the Mongols conquered the peninsula and subjugated its native population, using the peninsula as a base for their massive slave trade (Crimea was once as important a slave trading center as west Africa).

After centuries of launching slaving raids into southern Russia, the Crimean Tatars launched a slaving raid in 1769 that captured and exported over 20,000 Russian slaves, and killed many thousands more as they fought to defend themselves. In 1783 Catherine the Great retaliated by utterly destroying the Khanate, conquering Crimea, and claiming its land as compensation for the estimated two million people the Tatars had killed and kidnapped during their long history of slaving (keep that fact in mind when slamming the Russians for "conquering" Crimea).

The Tatars became a minority because, after Crimea was conquered and absorbed, ethnic Russians began settling there in large numbers. The Tatars who survived the war clustered in a handful of areas, and most of Crimea was empty when the Russian settlers arrived. The Tatars became a minority long before they were expelled.

And if you were wondering about the Greeks...they were forcibly relocated by Catherine the Great shortly after Russia conquered Crimea. Coincidentally enough, most of them live around Donetsk today. I haven't heard anything about their stance on all of this.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Still, the point remains that Crimea only became "Russian" via heavy Russification.

The Russians might lay claim to Crimea based on 250 years, but the Tatars have a much longer claim to the land.

[pampango]

16. Putin's take on the May 25 election has to be that the chaos in the east makes the election invalid.

So the chaos has to continue until at least May 25. If there were international monitors all over the country and the election came off smoothly that would take the wind out of Putin's sails. Chaos will continue.

I'm sure that Putin likes being able to play the '"unelected, unconstitutional" government in Kiev card'. A genuine election with international monitors would weaken that card. Chaos will continue.

Plus he must worry about what a real election might show about attitudes among all voters particularly those in the east and not just the self-appointed rebels. The vote may show a strong sentiment for independence or even for joining Russia, but there is the danger from his perspective that it might show just the opposite. I seriously doubt that Vlad wants a legitimate vote that he does not know the outcome of in advance. Chaos will continue.

The chaos in the east effectively ensures that there will be not election monitors other than those from the far-right parties in Europe who "monitored" the vote in Crimea. I think that chaos increases the odds of a 95% vote in the east for joining Russia so the chaos will continue. Chaos will continue.

[JackRiddler]

27. Interesting logic...

So if armed thugs with neo-Nazi participation oust Obama from Washington, but called for elections as one of their first acts, it would destroy 80-90% of your arguments against overthrowing Obama.

Genius as always. Thanks!

[stevenleser]

28. Your response is pretty good illustration of why statements shouldnt be taken out of context

Funny, I thought you were smarter than that at least.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. No.

No, he's not.

[stevenleser]

31. Apparently not. "But... NEONAZIS!!!!!11!1!"

Not one of that person's finer moments, to be sure.

[Jesus Malverde]

37. If President Obama were to leave the capital.

I guess he abdicated power.



Your spot on.

Ignore the vocal contingent of PNAC, McCain, Cheney fans they've moved into performance art territory.

[NuclearDem]

39. No, but neither would it justify Mexico swarming in to take back its pre-Hidalgo territory.

[JackRiddler]

41. Who's trying to justify that?

I responded to someone who's trying to justify overthrowing Obama (in the metaphor). No one's justified Mexico's subsequent invasion, and I haven't either, so I don't have to answer your point. Thus, criticizing the coup d'etat government of neoliberals and rightists in Kiev does not amount to "supporting Putin." Although, if you're going to do your metaphor, people in the pre-Hidalgo territories (at least the Gadsen Purchase or Crimea) rose up against the new Washington government right after it abolished Spanish as an official language of the state. So ultimately the problem began with the coup d'etat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. So the troops with no markings on uniforms

Are Martians? M'kay. Trash thread

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Really? It isn't?

I never cease to be amazed at the people who insist that Ukraine should just lie down and let Russia take of it what it chooses.

Trying to draw parallels to Maidan and what is happening in Eastern Ukraine is absurd. While Maidan was undoubtedly messy and chaotic at times, in the end, it was a Ukrainian matter, about Ukraine by Ukrainians.

What's happening right now in the east of the country is not about Ukraine. It is about Russia. That is why you see people waiving Russian flags and chanting Russia's name. It is a separatist movement. And unlike Maidan, it is also a minority movement, bolstered only by force. And not just sticks, bricks and your occasional Molotov cocktail, but AK-47s, grenade launchers and seized tanks.

Also conspicuously absent in Maidan but present in the separatist movement in the east are kidnapping of journalists and murdering of dissenting politicians.

This piece is nothing but the same old shit from bored western conspiracy theorists looking for things that just aren't there. I'm just surprised there was nothing in there about Victoria Nuland's cookies.

[okaawhatever]

14. I never cease to be amazed at the number of pro-Putin people on DU. Guardian, not so much since

they've had writers who were "agents of influence" for the KGB. (Richard Gott/Aston Tirrold).

[Xithras]

20. There's one important difference there that trumps all others

"And unlike Maidan, it is also a minority movement, bolstered only by force."

I supported the idea of Crimea joining Russia because history (both recent and otherwise) shows that it's what the people of Crimea wanted, and I believe that self-determination is an important cornerstone of freedom.

In east Ukraine, the separatists are no better than those militia nuts at the Bundy ranch in Nevada. They are a minority trying to assert their view by force. That sort of thing can't be tolerated. While I don't completely agree with the Kiev government either, these "secessionists" are trying to carve away part of Ukraine without any evidence that secession is actually what the majority wants.

[Cha]

23. Leave Russia and Putin

Alone! "at least Crimea got a vote "

Editorial: Crimea vote a joke

OPINION: The referendum in Crimea was, of course, a black joke. Crimeans were deciding whether to join Russia at a time when Russian soldiers had invaded. This was a plebiscite "under the Kalashnikov".

There was a 95 per cent vote for joining Russia, a result comparable in credibility with a presidential vote in North Korea.

The referendum was slanted in every way possible. There were no neutral observers to make sure it was free and fair. The wording of the referendum itself was skewed. It wasn't between going with Russia or staying with Ukraine. The second choice was a return to the 1992 constitution giving Crimea independence within Ukraine.

The ballot boxes were transparent, so an outsider could easily see which way the voter had voted. Russian flags could be seen everywhere, even within voting centres. It was all a long way from a New Zealand election day, with its scrupulous avoidance of partisan politics.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/9837743/Editorial-Crimea-vote-a-joke

Crimeans Are Resigned To Pro-Russia Vote

Even those who support union with Russia guffaw when asked whether the referendum will be above board. Kirill, a 20-year-old biology student who is firmly in the Russian camp, doubts it. “It is hard for old Soviet habits to die off,’” he admits standing outside a cell phone store in a shopping precinct in central Simferopol.

Suspiciously, half-a-million extra ballot papers have been printed for the referendum. Western journalists joke among themselves that it would be handy for their deadlines if Aksyonov, whose political party won a meager four percent of the vote in the regional parliamentary elections in 2010, would provide embargoed results ahead of the official declaration.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/15/crimeans-are-resigned-to-pro-russia-vote.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Well, if John McCain and the far right is with the new government....

It seems like a really smart thing to stay the hell out of that squabble.

[malaise]

18. +1,000 n/t

[Jesus Malverde]

22. When he speaks we need to listen closely and demand the opposite...nt

[JackRiddler]

29. All the pro-McCain people here are amazing.

Ooops, sorry, just mirroring the logic of the new Cold War crowd, for whom any criticism of the coup d'etat by neoliberals and Nazis in Kiev means you must support Putin. (By same logic if you were against the invasion of Iraq you supported Saddam. It's an old story of patriotic deflection -- McCarthyites were also doing it.)

[uponit7771]

36. +1

[pampango]

40. Ahh, but the far-right (European) is precisely with Putin, not Kiev.

Far-right parties are set to do well in next month’s elections to the European Parliament, a fact that has thrown a spotlight on their links with the Kremlin. A recent study by the Budapest-based Political Capital Institute documents the support that far-right parties in the EU have given to Russian President Vladimir Putin, particularly throughout the Ukraine crisis. These parties repeated the Kremlin’s line that it is the EU and the West, rather than Russia, which are provoking tension and fueling violence in the Eastern European country.

http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123887

[Blue_Tires]

32. Oh, right...This is all *OUR* fault

and Moscow's hands are completely clean in all this

Some people are beyond shame...

[grahamhgreen]

34. Let's not forget Victoria Nueland is a neocon pushing the neocon agenda. They want war, gas, and

The farmland for monsantos monster corn.

[uponit7771]

35. Didn't war fallow after McCain left Georgia in 08?! Seems like where this guy gos war follows

[Jesus Malverde]

38. Syria, Libya, etc..

The guy gets his energy from conflict and strife.

He thrives on death.

There isn't even much logic to his blood lust...

Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran, sung to the beach boys melody, he's a monster really.

[polly7]

42. K&R!

McCain never met even a possible conflict he didn't want to escalate to war, and he's far from being alone. When the west sees a chance to escalate strife to benefit the corporate masters .......... it's on!!!