Okay. I checked my privilege. Now what? Is there an actual political goal somewhere?

[Comrade Grumpy]

Or are we more about process than progress?

[BainsBane]

1. Why don't you tell us how you checked your privilege

and why. Did you learn anything about racism as a result?

[Comrade Grumpy]

3. I pondered on the incredible whiteness of my being.

You know, I'm an older guy and I work in the public policy field in criminal justice. I've been aware of racism and "white privilege" for awhile. And that's an understatement.

I'm hoping to find out what to do to make our society a better place. These discussions of privilege seem pretty much devoid of that.

I have work to do, but will check back in later today. Where do we go after checking our privileges?

[BainsBane]

5. Here is how I see the point of it

People are often comfortable with pointing to racism as being wielded by others--Republicans, Zimmerman, even structurally. What they tend not to be so comfortable with is reflecting on how all of us are influenced by that racism. We are all raised with racist messaging as a result of the society we live in. That society discriminates against non-whites and gives whites certain advantages is crucial to the propagation of racism. Those advantages are privilege--the converse of experiencing discrimination. The privilege we carry is unconscious. It seems entirely natural, which is why so many insist they have none. (I'm not denying the existence of discrimination or privilege as a result of class, gender or sexuality, just not talking about that right now). Reflecting on one's own privilege can help one understand the more subtle forms of racism we all take part in to some extent or another. Thinking about our role in that can lessen the extent to which we do so. Understanding that racism is not just about Klansmen and the GOP but also part of our cultural environment is crucial to combating it. Understanding privilege is part of that process. The word itself is not as important as the concept.

It also helps to understand there is just a hell of a lot of bullshit people of color have to put up with. It's not just a matter of law. It's daily life. Part of that bullshit is having their concerns declared illegitimate, as flamebait or trolling. How about letting folks use the language they want? If you want to use the term privilege, go ahead. If you don't want to, don't. Just don't hassle people who do. It's not cool to tell African Americans how they are allowed to talk about their experiences being subject to racism. Don't make them put up with more bullshit than they need to. The same goes for feminist members of this site and LGBT members. If we want to post about rape or some such issue that you're sick to death of, trash the thread, use trash by keyword, move on. Let people care about what they want and understand it's not all about you.

Also, there is no need to take a comment about privilege as an attack against you. As I said in my OP, all it means is there is shit you don't have to put up with. No one should have to put up with that shit. Let's work on making sure they don't.

[BainsBane]

12. OMG

I knew him from threads on feminism. I hadn't realized that about Zimmerman. I'll give up then.

[boston bean]

55. You know something, let these persons make fools of themselves.

Let them spew this bullshit, let's see if people who stay out of it because we pull the weight will speak up.

If not, well then, this place deserves what it will become.

[Comrade Grumpy]

68. Apologies accepted any time.

You might try actually verifying something before you "spew this bullshit."

[boston bean]

69. WTF are you talking about?

[Comrade Grumpy]

72. You responded to the post accusing me of being a Zimmerman supporter.

And use it to throw barbs about "spewing bullshit."

You didn't bother to even verify if that claim was true; you just went with it because, I suppose, it fit your preconceptions.

The post got locked because it was an absolute fucking lie. Not one scintilla of truth to it.

That's what I'm talking about.

[BainsBane]

73. Bullshit is non-specific

That doesn't mean she was claiming you were a Zimmerman supporter. She never said you were.

[JJChambers]

75. I'm glad that post got hidden

[Comrade Grumpy]

78. No, she was using that baseless claim to dump a load of crap.

[BainsBane]

80. No, she was talking about your OP

Given the snarky tone of your posts about white privilege in this thread, "bullshit" doesn't seem an extreme conclusion to me.

It's not like someone threatened to rape or kill you, like happened to Seabeyond. Bullshit is a pretty mild comment.

[boston bean]

74. I wasn't talking about that claim. I was talking about your OP, which I certainly couldn't

be lying about. It's right there for everyone to read.

So, you go right on talking.... I'll take my apologies at any time, thank you.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Well, then you should have replied to the OP instead of tagging onto a now hidden post...

Because it looked very much like you were agreeing with the now-hidden comment. btw, I don't usually comment on what juries I've been on, but I was juror #2 on the jury for the hidden post in this thread and am glad that the other jurors saw it the same way as me. Accusing another DUer who isn't a Zimmerman supporter of being one is low, especially since those of us who've been on MIRT are aware that Zimmerman supporters are nuked because they're not welcome at DU...

[boston bean]

96. I really don't care Violet, I've explained myself, and I'll post where and how I like. Thank you.

Go tell someone else how to post, will ya? Even down to the where they ought to be making their comments.

This shit is just to surreal.

[Violet_Crumble]

99. I was merely suggesting it would have minimised confusion...

I read it as you agreeing with the now hidden post. But seeing you don't care how people read yr posts, it's all a moot point, especially as the post was rightfully hidden...

[boston bean]

101. You're post was a bit more than a little suggestion.

Again, I'll worry about my where I insert my postings into threads, thank you. You don't ever worry yourself about it again, ok?

[Violet_Crumble]

102. The words 'should have' makes it a suggestion...

btw, didn't you start an OP less than an hour ago worrying yrself about what threads people post in and what they talk about?

[boston bean]

103. Again, you worrying yourelf with my postings. Please stop it, it's not necessary.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. That a scurrilous fucking lie. I'm alerting on it (for all the good it might do me).

I don't think I've ever posted on a Zimmerman thread, and I have never supported him.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for stooping so fucking low.

[JI7]

56. i have seen you in the zimmerman threads

[Comrade Grumpy]

58. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you made a mistake. Now, delete your lie.

[JJChambers]

76. Your libelous attack was hidden! Ha!

[BainsBane]

77. Libelous? Really?

I'm guessing you're not a lawyer.

Does that mean I can sue a poster for libel for accusing me of bashing Beyoncé and attacking "movements of feminism"?
How about the person who claimed I called someone a dog, or passed around naked pictures of some DUer, or the ones who call me a troll and iverglas? I'd be happy with a hide. Suing for libel somehow never occurred to me.

[Comrade Grumpy]

79. Let's pick nits, shall we?

[boston bean]

81. What a load, after your grandstanding upthread.

[Comrade Grumpy]

98. Thanks for all your contributions to this thread.

[boston bean]

105. You're welcome. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. Results of my alert:

On Tue May 13, 2014, 10:09 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

the op is a Zimmerman supporter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4944328

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This is an absolute, low-down falsehood. The poster has posted any supporting evidence because there isn't any. Do we get to get anyway with posting libelous outright lies about each other?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue May 13, 2014, 10:16 AM, and voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with the alerter
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The kind of stuff used against some DUers in certain groups should not be tolerated.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation:

hurtful, rude, insensitive

Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

[Nye Bevan]

100. Quite a few here throw "Zimmerman supporter" around like "poopy-head".

They never actually cite any posts as evidence of such support, though.

Good to see a jury doing the right thing.

[morningfog]

126. Especially when "Trayvon hater" may be more accurate.

[Nye Bevan]

130. Except that you are unable to provide a link to any post, anywhere on DU,

where any DUer expresses hatred for Trayvon Martin.

Of course, I am sure you are aware that stating that there was insufficient evidence to convict Zimmerman of murder beyond a reasonable doubt does not make someone a "Trayvon hater" any more than expressing understanding for OJ Simpson's acquittal makes someone a "Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman hater".

[morningfog]

134. I'm unable to give a fuck, Nye. Everyone knows what you are.

[Nye Bevan]

136. Oh, you FOUND a Trayvon-hating post!

Actually no. I knew that you wouldn't be able to.

[morningfog]

138. Guess what, nye. Racism denialism is racism. Check thyself.

[Nye Bevan]

139. Still no link? (nt)

[morningfog]

140. I can't think of many things that would be more unpleasant than sifting through your

posting history. Eww.

[Nye Bevan]

141. Heh. Cute alibi.

"He's so horrible, he posted that he hates Trayvon Martin, but I'm not going to sift through his horrible posts to find that one!"

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. And having the matter treated lightly ...

As I suspect that poster is (judging from his previous posts and his choice of wording in this post).

[JaneyVee]

13. Go here to find your answer:

http://www.whiteprivilegeconference.com/

[JJChambers]

2. I checked mine; some airlines are charging for each checked privilege!

[bravenak]

4. Good. Step one complete.

Step two. Check your family and friends and have them spread the word and check other privileged persons. Once everyone has checked themselves, we'll move on to step three.

[Shandris]

6. Are we checking only their white privilege...

...or do we check all the privileges at once? And how are we defining 'white'?

And on what category or scale are we checking these privileges? Is a whitish-looking Asian a PoC, or does he have white privilege because he 'passes'? How about those with native American blood? Is 1/16th a PoC if they identify as a PoC, or are they still 'white' because they look 'whitish'? How about for trans* people? And do we hit them with the privilege of their identity, or the privilege of their birth sex, or the privilege of whichever they've spent the most time as?

And the homeless. Do we count them as disprivileged because of how they are now, or do we count them as whatever class they've spent the most amount of time in? Or perhaps the one they were raised in?

I...I think I'm going to need a hierarchy chart here. Perhaps some kind of scoring system? How do I know if I'm checking someone properly?!? I don't want to do it improperly and ruin the whole system of solving our problems.

[Niceguy1]

7. a committee should be formed

To investigate this.

We need a privilege check system, along the same lines as the smog check system for cars. If you dont pass off to the reeducation camps..

[Shandris]

8. Well, that might be a bit far. =)

But on a more serious note, this is the big problem I have with the topic. Since we acknowledge that there -are- a gazillion different kinds of privilege, and most people realize that the intersections of those privileges informs society more than any single one can, then anytime a conversation about just one is started its akin to trying to rebuild a wall starting with the center.

I don't think any -reasonable- person disagrees that privilege itself -exists-. They may disagree that its effects are all-pervasive, or to the extent of those effects, but not that it exists. The question is, what is gained by trying to shame people for something they have nothing to do with? If institutional racism is the problem and it doesn't matter whether one person has directly contributed to it, then 'checking your privilege' has, and can have, no discernible function other than guilt because individuals cannot make a difference (its inherent in the 'institutional' part) and they don't have the power to alter the institution. And even if they did, their solutions are not wanted. In fact, they are explicitly told to sit down and shut up.

So if we don't have the power to change it, and our individual experience doesn't matter (and I'll just leave that part alone for this post), and our guilt won't change anything, and even if we had the power to change it our solution isn't wanted...then what exactly are we supposed to do?

[BainsBane]

11. That you think you have nothing to do with it is a problem

We all do. We all are raised in a racist society and internalize some of those messages. You do have the power to change it--in yourself. You have the power to reflect on racism, homophobia, and other kinds of oppression, think about how you are influenced by the messages that reinforce discrimination against members of those groups and work on not engaging in the subtle acts of discrimination that cause unnecessary hardship for members of those groups.

The people being told to shut up here are the members of color who dare to mention racism. There are very few left on DU, and there is a reason for that. The fact people get bent out of shape because those members dare to post something that uses language they choose is one of the reasons for that. You can continue to participate in that or decide you want this community to be diverse and respect their right to their own concerns and views. Your choice.

[The Straight Story]

29. Hmmm. Stigmatizing people in a group. Now where on DU have I seen that before?

Shoot, can't recall off the top of my head but I am sure it will come to me. Gonna have to reload my coffee and take another shot at it. But I would swear that I have seen people taking aim at other groups and stigmatizing the whole group based on the few. Even to the point of firing off ops showing the actions of one person and conjecturing how others in the group must be same way.

Will have to look over some old bullet points and see if I am on target or not on the whole thing. IIRC something to do with less than a percent do x so all in that group are bad. Was it people being on welfare and they were all using money for drugs? No...the right wing was all over that and it was shown in Florida that only about 1-2% tops were. I do recall we were consistent there in pointing out that judging all people based on the few was wrong.

No point being all up in arms over it I guess, it will come to me.

[BainsBane]

36. Give it a rest

Even Skinner commented on the absurdity of white guys whining about how oppressed they are. Have a look at this: http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/17004629556/white-privilege-now-what-other-such-fallacies

You are not the fucking victim.

?w=375&h=300

[The Straight Story]

39. Wasn't talking about white guys

Maybe you missed some of the key words I put in.

Are you for or against stigmatizing whole groups based on what the few do?

[BainsBane]

46. Oh, when I have the nerve to talk about gun policy?

When I don't worship guns? I don't give a fuck about gun zealots, as long as they stay far away from me. A lot, if not most, gun owners are reasonable human beings and don't whine about how fucking oppressed they are.

The same point applies. You insist on making every discussion about you. You clearly didn't read the link or at least didn't think about it. If you decide anyone on this planet besides of yourself matters at all, read that link and reflect on how you respond to these threads. http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/17004629556/white-privilege-now-what-other-such-fallacies

Every time you enter a thread and make the discussion about you (which is every response you make to me), I care less about you. If that's your goal, you are excelling.

Besides, no fucking gun shit in GD. You alert on gun threads all the time and now you want to make a thread about racism all about deadly weapons. As you protest against so-called bigotry about gun owners, you make them look all the worse for it. Amazing how my brother-in-law manages to own guns and doesn't make every discussion about him, and he's a Republican!

[The Straight Story]

48. I alert on gun threads?

I can't recall doing such except in one case I can think of off hand.

And it is not about me. It is about people who espouse a principal and wave it around like a flag and then suddenly abandoned that same principal when it suits them.

Not about guns - about how a few folks use what they say are their core principals to bandy about their views then toss them aside and do the same thing they condemn later on.

Condemn others for what they themselves do. Either one thinks basing their views on a group based on the few is wrong or they don't. And if they think it is wrong maybe they should apply that same value across the board instead of picking and choosing.

[BainsBane]

59. This is about white privilege and racism

Not your precious WMD. People of color matter. Equality of human beings--not fucking guns--matters, even if you can't be bothered to care enough to address the issue or their experiences. SCOTUS may claim the constitutions makes a corporation a person but it doesn't make a gun one. The Fourteenth Amendment covers race, religion and creed, not gun owners. I do not give even the slightest fuck about your poor oppressed gun zealot whine.

You are a lost cause. I'm done.

[The Straight Story]

63. And it all boils down to basic ideals and principals that guide us

Whites do have some privilege in our society. And you yourself brought up how people get stigmatized.

Do you feel doing that to people/groups is wrong or not? You seem to think it is wrong in the case you mentioned. When it comes to how men see women the same thing, don't judge all by the few. Don't stigmatize all Muslims based on the few.

And here you are using colorful language (wmd) to taint a discussion. You call out others when they stereotype/stigmatize and expect others to let it slide?

[kwassa]

47. The concept of white privilege has nothing to do with stigmatization.

If you think it does, you don't understand the concept.

[The Straight Story]

49. People are privileged. Especially white people. Americans are as well in general.

I have no problem with the general concept at all.

[kwassa]

52. Then why do you feel stigmatized?

Do you have some type of personal guilt that you need to unload?

[The Straight Story]

57. I wasn't talking about that issue but

the idea that some here do, indeed, stigmatize others based on what a few in that group do.

Something I thought we progressives worked against instead of embracing. But on DU there are some cases where the whole idea is embraced and believed to be right. Call it out in most cases people think it is quite progressive of you.

Call it out on some pet issues when the same is done and suddenly you aren't a progressive, get labeled, etc.

[kwassa]

60. I am a white male that believes that white privilege exists and is very real.

I don't feel stigmatized as a white male by this discussion. White females have white privilege, too, by the way.

[Niceguy1]

44. I dont thnk there is anything

We can do. We can all.live correctly and treat people fairly in our dealings. Other than that there isnt much that we are responsible for as individuals. A certain segment of this is labeling and an attempt to divide.

[bravenak]

9. Don't worry so much.

Once you all get done checking each other properly, THEN you can come back to us and tell us which words you prefer.
Once we get rid of the racism in our country, i will then be open to the possibility of maybe someday in the future when the time is right and the stars are alligned properly on a full moon in juvember, think about perhaps in a distant future caring what makes white dudes uncomfortable.

All that other stuff you just threw in your stone soup of strawmen, i will not address at this time.
You can address those concerns as you please.

[Shandris]

16. Ahh, okay. I get it. You're a one-privilege kind of person.

None of the others matter. Why didn't'cha just say so?

[bravenak]

21. I was talking about white privilege.

If you want to discuss other types of privilege, why did you reply to me? I wasn't talking about other forms of privilege, if thats what you want to talk about, i am sure you can find somebody to discuss it with you.

As far as you questioning whether i care about other types of privilege, and then answering your own question. That is a strange thing to do, putting words in peoples mouths. Why do you do that?


Do you have a problem with my discussing the topics i want to discuss with out you having some input into what other things i should discuss along with that?
Why does it matter to you if i mention other types of privilege or not?
I'll mind my business and you may tend to yourn. You can decide without my input what to discuss and i will not be needing any input from you on my discussion topics.

[Shandris]

104. It matters because ostensibly we want the same things, generically speaking.

But since our methods do not, and apparently can not, match...then I suppose I'll leave you be. Have a good week.

[bravenak]

114. If we want the same things.

Then it shouldn't matter to you if i use a phrase you don't like.

[Shandris]

123. On the contrary Bravenak, it does. But not for the reasons that so many seem to like to...

...ascribe. I keep being told I'm a 'white male' (half right, I'm white), or that I'm 'uncomfortable' (I'm not), or that I just want to 'silence people' (I don't).

What I want is to see progress on this front, and if white people are going to be allowed to be part of it then you're going to need to win them over. I know it's not the first time you've heard it, and it won't be the last. You don't need to convince -me-, I'm already for you. It's my neighbors, my cashiers, the people who walk down my street here in the heart of Red State USA. They're the ones you need, and you aren't going to get them with anger. No matter how much better it makes you feel to be angry -- and I understand, it does make you feel better! White is about the only privilege I have going for me, so I -know- how angry feels! -- but it won't make any difference. Anger doesn't work. I can step into a preacher's face and shout and scream until I'm blue in the face about how evil they can be towards gays and just how angry that makes me, and all I will get is a condescending smirk. Because anger. doesn't. work.

Divisive doesn't work. And these phrases that try to tie one phrase (White Privilege) to racism (a concept with at least three distinct categories) and present it as some kind of solution when it doesn't even truly address the problems of a single version of racism don't work.

But 'uncomfortable'? Yah...no. That doesn't happen. It's a caricature of the real response, which is typically pity or defensive dismissal.

[bravenak]

127. Sorry i disagree quite firmly.

In order to solve this 400 year old problem in America, those that feel most comfortable with the status quo need to feel uncomfortable with themselves in order for us to progress as a society. Complacency of the white male majority makes it difficult for us to get them to do something about it.
It's like this for me, i just want a better future for my kids than the past i had. And if that takes me screaming and ranting i will get my way, oh yes i will.

I will embarrass any bigot that wants to cross swords with me and i will put the smash down on anybody trying tell me what to say or how to say it.

The time for discussing whether it's helpful or not is long over. My generation is not asking for fair treatment, we demand fair and equitable treatment, right fuggin now!

I could care less about a condescending smirk. I've been called so many racist names to my face and i am still among the living. I think white dudes can handle me saying white privilege if i can handle being call terrible names and being beat up by groups of white kids while they called me SLAVE!

I bet thats never happened to any of them, but it happened to me in different ways various times. Think about that before you try to words nanny me to spare the feelings of the majority.
Thank you very much for your advice. But no, i got this.

[Shandris]

132. ...

...I can't rightly put into words the emotions I have right now, so I'll simply not try. I -can- say I'm truly, honestly, deeply sorry that you've had to listen to people call you those things. It's not right.

But as for the rest...we're simply going to have to disagree. But if you insist on opposite methods, you can't then turn and say 'You solve it'. You can't tell me to keep my words to myself, go out and turn everyone against you, and -then- declare its my problem to solve.

So if you got this, then go right ahead. If you want the rest of society, we'll be here waiting to be included.

[bravenak]

137. There are plenty of members of society that agree with me.

So, the 'rest' of society wont be waiting for you as they are not all with you. I'm an in your face type of person, you may be more reticent. Like Malcolm X and MLK were BOTH necessary for the civil rights struggle, so now to are both types needed to end this thing for good.
I have experienced some of the things that make me more likely to speak out loudly and to feel proud that i am able to articulate my feelings about my experiences, and leave the feelings of shame and worthlessness behind. In order for me to do this i must be able to speak my truth in my way and not give a damn if it make the next person feel bad.
This is not an issue that can be discussed and solved over mint juleps on the porch.

[Egnever]

17. odd that you don't care what makes the white dudes uncomfortable

But expect them to care what makes you uncomfortable.

Guess that's your privledge.

[bravenak]

25. They don't care that it makes me uncomfortable that they try to tell me what words to use.

Funny how you noticed this post but not the posts trying to tell me whivh words to use like i need any help using words properly.

White men in america have a history of not caring what makes black folks uncomfortable. We had to be super polite and respectful at all times for centuries. There were still lynchings going on in the 90's. There is racism in the court system, that makes me uncomfortable . So why sould i care if white dudes are uncomfortable if they could care less if i am? I shouldn't and i wont.

Thank for the tip, but i'll just do me my way without your assistance.

[Egnever]

106. So just to be sure I have this right

Because I am a white dude I should care how you feel cause of my privilege and I shouldn't expect you to care how I feel because of my privilege.


That's the message I am getting loud and clear.

[nomorenomore08]

109. White people haven't been violently oppressed for centuries in this country. That's the difference.

And as a white guy myself, I believe that if we're ever going to truly fix things, we need to stop whining and making everything about our own egos.

[Egnever]

117. So what people did before I was born

Means I need to genuflect?

Count me out.

I have a pretty firm grasp on advantages I have as a white male in many different situations. It is not something I caused and is something i have done everything in my power to try to rectify and will continue to.

I feel no need to apologize for it or take lectures from someone who feels like they are trying to even the score.

[nomorenomore08]

119. There's no need to apologize. And if you really have a "pretty firm grasp" on this stuff

then that's a start, at least. But a lot of other people need to get a grasp on it themselves - see the dumbfucks on any random Internet thread whining about "reverse racism blah blah" when what they really mean deep down is that white people are naturally superior and deserve to rule over others. What we really need is an effective way to deal with those assholes.

[bravenak]

122. I am saying you don't care how i feel NOW.

If white dudes cared how i felt in America they would have ended this oppressive system that was rigged in their favor at the founding of our nation.

If they cared about my feelings, they would stop killing our boys for playing music too loud.
If they cared about my feelings being black wouldn't equal 'looking suspicious'.
If they cared about my feelings, they would respect my right to use whatever term i deem necessary to voice my anguish.
If they cared about my feelings, being black would not make it more likely that we would be harassed by the police, punished harsher than whites, and being more likely to end up on death row or in prison.
If they cared about me and my feelings they would not try to micromanage my words and ask me to stop using words that make them uncomfortable.
If they cared about my feelings they would know that it is damn hard to be black in America and they would listen to me instead of trying to shut me up or change my words.
If they cared about us, they would stop telling us that it's our fault and that we need to be the ones fixing the race problem, and they would do it themselves.

If they only cared enough about us.........

[Egnever]

142. What a bunch of ridiculousness.

Broad brush much?

[bravenak]

143. Sure.

Just like America does to me. It is my right to return the favor of broad brushing people. I'll stop when i get fair treatment in this nation. We are broad brushed by society everyday and cast in a negative light. Work on those people before you start working on me. Work on the oppressors not the oppressed's vocabulary.

[JJChambers]

26. Are you saying minority privilege is the privilege to be offended where majorities cannot?

[Egnever]

107. Seems to be the message

[nomorenomore08]

111. You can take offense at whatever you want, it's a (relatively) free country.

But if said "offense" has little to no tangible effect on your life, then your hurt feelings are less likely to be taken seriously. It's a simple matter of priorities, really.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. White dudes are suddenly "uncomfortable"?

Welcome to the real world! Many women and minorities have been made to feel "uncomfortable" in their own home....the U.S.! So how does it feel?

[Egnever]

108. Quite honestly

Feels like a game.

Seems like people trying to score points to me. Doesnt begin to resemble anyone looking for ways to make a situation better.

[VanillaRhapsody]

146. Exactly!!!!!

welcome to OUR world....

games and points and competition....maybe you ARE starting to understand this point regardless

[merrily]

31. "stone soup of straw men"

I may have to steal that.

[bravenak]

37. They force me to come up with this stuff all the time.

Take it, it's yours.

[merrily]

42. No, it's yours, but I'll steal.

I hope I remember to give you credit, though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. If step three involves rectifying injustice, couldn't we have skipped one and two? n/t

[BainsBane]

23. How can you rectify injustice if you don't recognize it?

Denial is now the principal means by which oppression is propagated. When people refuse to acknowledge a problem exists, there is no way to combat it.

[bravenak]

27. You haven't even finished step two yet.

Do that then come back and ask for step three.

[rrneck]

35. There is something wrong with you deep inside and you have to go through the steps

to purify your soul.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. I only pause in flagellation to periodically tighten my Cilice

Verily, my rent garments and thorougly gnashed teeth must eventually earn me some liberal creds.

A person of lesser faith might begin thinking that the scars, bad teeth and ill-suited clothing were punishments - that they are the whole point of this exercise.

... but I know better. I know that eventually, I'll be called to do *something* useful about injustice.

"Blessed be pain. Loved be pain. Sanctified be pain. . . Glorified be pain!"

[redqueen]

14. Try this, maybe it'll help.

...

Examples of what people ACTUALLY mean when they say “Check Your Privilege.”

You are inserting yourself into a conversation where you shouldn’t be. Acknowledge what you are doing, apologize and stop it.
You are making my pain about you. Acknowledge what you are doing, apologize and stop it.
You are belittling my pain. Acknowledge what you are doing, apologize and stop it.
You are making my fears concerns and troubles less important than your annoyance about me talking about my experience. Acknowledge what you are doing, apologize and stop it.


Now What?

If you believe that PoC want you to apologize for having white privilege, you are wrong. To be honest, I don’t get why you would think that in the first place. Let’s pretend for a second that I DO want you to apologize for having white privilege. Then, let’s pretend that you actually do apologize to me. How does that help me in ANY way? You see, some of you believe that we want to take away what you have or we want you to be ashamed of what you have. This is not the case. We want to be treated like human beings and we want you to understand that you don’t get to assert yourself or your feelings ABOUT OUR FEELINGS onto us or into our conversations.

...

http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/17004629556/white-privilege-now-what-other-such-fallacies

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. "You are inserting yourself into a conversation where you shouldn’t be... apologize and stop it"

"That I carry privilege in certain areas of life doesn't mean I can't express my views or that people are judging me exclusively on my race."

It'd be easier to accept these trains of thought if they weren't so inherently contradictory.

I don't know anything about what it is like to be you. Conversely, you don't know anything about what it is like to be me. The asymmetry of that ignorance requiring only one of us to shut up, is neither productive nor enforceable.

The point of these conversations isn't to fix anything, they are therefore counterproductive.

[redqueen]

30. You keep working hard at ... whatever it is you're doing.

I'm amused at your 'but two people said different things therefore it's all nonsense' act.

Nobody is that fucking stupid.

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. When you get upset at the term "White Privilege" you feel judged based on your race (and gender)....

know you KNOW how it feels.....welcome to the real world where the rest of us live

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. I'm not upset about the term, I'm upset that we never get to any solutions.

I'm beginning to think that this is a destination in its own right. Or as the poster RQ quoted helpfully explained; "shut up and apologize".

That was easy, now we can stop perseverating about it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

95. No you are not....we have HAD this discussion recently....YOU refuse to accept or even

acknowledge White Male Privilege.

Unless you have had an about face and this is your version of a mea culpa....I am going to have to say...

nah....not buying this...

[BainsBane]

70. Expressing your views is different from monopolozing discussions

making it about you (the general you) and showing that you see your own feelings as a white male to be more important than the experiences of people of color. The latter is to show complete disrespect for those people.

[nomorenomore08]

112. +1

[BainsBane]

28. Wow. That really describes

what goes on here.

[redqueen]

32. It's pathetic how predictable it is.

One marvels at the idea that anyone could still pull that crap and think it's either meaningful, original, or in any way helpful.

Intentional derailing or stubborn, willful ignorance... not sure which is worse TBH

[Starry Messenger]

15. One immediate and totally doable goal is to have discussions here about it.

Ones that don't get derailed by the Church of the Perpetually Befuddled.

Then after that baby step, we could move to what one can do in real life to ameliorate the damaging effects of privilege on the people around you.

[merrily]

33. Church of the Perpetually Befuddled.

Second (so far) phrase on this thread I may have to steal.

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. can we add "willfully" to that phrase?

[Upton]

19. You're supposed to feel bad too..

and spend the rest of your life doing mea culpas for having had the audacity to be born a white male..

[kwassa]

50. No, you're not supposed to feel bad. You don't understand the concept, either.

Speaking as the white male that I am, who understands white privilege. There is no guilt involved. It is simply a fact of being in our country at this time in history.

[Skittles]

65. "I didn't make the rules; I just enjoy them."

Frasier Crane

[nomorenomore08]

113. Rush? Is that you?

[quinnox]

22. daily self flagellation sessions is the next step

Get some whips ready!

[Nye Bevan]

34. Are you sure that you checked *all* of your privileges?

White, male, heterosexual, non-disabled, cisgender, attractive (if applicable), full head of hair (again, if applicable), etc.?

If so, congratulations. But make sure to keep checking these privileges on a regular basis.

And if you have a privileged feeling that lasts longer than 4 hours, be sure to consult one of the resident DU privilege experts.

[kwassa]

61. Pointless diversion. Avoiding the subject.

[nomorenomore08]

115. Class privilege, gender privilege, etc. are also very important.

But bringing them up in a thread specifically about race privilege, feels like derailing.

[Nye Bevan]

116. Ummm..... where does the OP specifically mention race? (nt)

[nomorenomore08]

121. It's just that race privilege has been the main one discussed around here recently.

We can talk about other forms, and we should, but taking them all on at once frankly gets too confusing.

[Nye Bevan]

124. So you're taking it upon yourself to deem what kind of privilege the OP means?

I'm pretty sure male privilege is discussed quite a bit around here, too.

[nomorenomore08]

125. 1. No, and perhaps I assumed a little too much.

2. Yes it is, and should be. But I don't want us to get bogged down in some counterproductive Oppression Olympics, which entirely misses the point anyway.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. Step One: Collect underpants

Step Two:

Step Three: Profit

[LittleBlue]

45. This is why racism redefined as privilege is silly

You can't actually check your privilege. It's just a meaningless slogan cooked up by academics in the publish-or-perish university climate.

They found that too many people didn't consider themselves racist. How to solve this? It's the same problem the church had 2000 years ago, no doubt. Many people believed themselves sinless.

Privilege = original sin. Those people who consider themselves blameless are deemed responsible. Their actions cannot cure them of this original sin, they were born with it and they will live with it. Both with the aim of justifying the jobs of either institution, whether it's the mostly useless church or professors who teach mostly useless majors.

Real privilege is largely socioeconomic in nature. A thorough privilege debate would be an examination of all the advantages and disadvantages each person has in life, and then deciding, not merely broad-brushing people based on one genetic trait.

[kwassa]

66. You actually can check your privilege.

Privilege is not sin. Privilege is an advantage, that is all. There are no questions of sin or guilt involved in the concept of privilege.

Real privilege is largely socioeconomic in nature. A thorough privilege debate would be an examination of all the advantages and disadvantages each person has in life, and then deciding, not merely broad-brushing people based on one genetic trait.

Partly true. Much socioeconomic privilege has been racially based, historically. That hasn't changed, to any large degree.

One genetic trait has determined socioeconomic history in this country. Why should we ignore that?

What white privilege says is that if you are white, you have an advantage over a minority from identical socioeconomic circumstances. And, that is true.

[liberal N proud]

53. I am still looking for mine!

[bravenak]

54. All this thread needs now is.....

And some of this.

[boston bean]

62. It's actually nothing but a reverse racism argument. Truly, that is all it is.

They feel they are being racially profiled, prejudiced and discriminated against for having white skin and being male.

When you peel away all the layers, that is actually all they are saying.

What a bunch of poor pitiful souls. They make great spokesmen for the MRA movement.

[BainsBane]

67. We've even got whines about how oppressed

gun owners are, which is more important than racism.

It's like they read the website Redqueen linked to and decided to mimic it.

[Eleanors38]

83. Why are you bringing up guns again?

[bravenak]

85. Why are people so worried about what you bring up?

[BainsBane]

87. That's a really good question

I fascinate them for some reason. God knows why.

[bravenak]

88. Now i'm fascinated too.

You intrigue me. Every time you appear in a discussion people start showing their true colors.

[randys1]

71. After you check your privilege, how about doing something about racism which ONLY white privileged

can ...

[wercal]

82. Grumpy, nobody answered your question

I haven't even opened any of there White Privilege threads...but your piqued my interest.

But nobody directly answered your question - which I suspect was a lot more serious than some here took it to be.

[bravenak]

86. I did answer it.

I told him to go check the rest of the white dudes in America, and then get back to me for step three.

[BainsBane]

89. I did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4944197

He didn't bother to respond to that.

Bravenak answered it as well, as did Redqueen. How about reading the thread before deciding no one answered the question?

[wercal]

90. No. You responded to his thread. Not the same as answering his question.

An Bravenak gave him the assignment to go get all the white guys in the world in line...which I took to be either a joke or trollishly combative.

The OP sincerely asked a question about how to take action, how to make something happen. In other words...what good is all this WP discussion, can it be developed into platform language, can people run on it, can people make policy based on it.

The answer he got was to wallow in self-hatred and stay in that state.

[BainsBane]

92. Clearly you didn't read the responses

because I didn't tell him what you wanted to hear doesn't mean I didn't answer. You've obviously made a concerted effort to refuse to understand the issue, so how would you possibly know if anyone had answered his question? I certainly didn't tell him to "wallow in self hatred." Redqueen linked to a very interesting website. You should read it.

[bravenak]

94. For it to be effective, white men have to do their due dilligence.

It's up to white men to end White Male Privilege. Please stop trying to get us to do all the work.
We have not caused this problem (we meaning black people like me), we do not benefit from it, we suffer the indignities thereof, and it is not our job to stop white privilege in America by ourselves. Do your part by making racism as distasteful as, lets use incest for this example. And we will do our part by forgiving America for treating us like animals. You go first.

[Iggo]

84. So you admit that it's real?

[nomorenomore08]

118. Some "admit" that it exists, but do whatever they can to downplay it.

It's another version of the "Yeah there's racism/sexism/homophobia but it's not that bad" argument that people who don't WTF they're talking about, like to throw around.

[Comrade Grumpy]

133. Clearly, the construct "white privilege" exists.

I tend to think it's not very useful or helpful. It seems to make a glaringly obvious point--white people don't have it as bad as people of color in our society--in a demonstrably controversial way. As demonstrated in countless threads here.

If the proponents of using white privilege as a consciousness raising device are interested in anything other than talk, they just may want to go back to the drawing board.

Or maybe they can tell me how they explain white privilege to the parents of the 5 million white kids living in poverty in this country? And what they think they will accomplish. Anybody?

[Ohio Joe]

110. Do no societal issues concern you? What do you do about the ones that do?

There are a lot of people who simply 'go along' on matters of equality.

[Comrade Grumpy]

129. Well, one thing I do is work to get state and federal sentencing reform laws passed.

You know, like those racially biased crack cocaine mandatory minimum sentence laws. We're actually making some progress on that. The racist application and result of the drug laws is a big part of the conversation, yet no one involved feels compelled to lecture everyone else about white privilege.

Changing bad laws is a real world thing, with real world impacts. Maybe discussions of white privilege had something to do with advancing the cause, but I've been involved and observing, and in the policy world, I don't see much sign of it. People can understand racism without necessarily jumping on the white privilege construction.

[blogslut]

120. Empathy towards others makes you a better person.

Maybe give it a try instead of tossing out snark.

[morningfog]

128. I love when benefactors of privilege use their privilege to play victim.

It's soooo cute!

[Comrade Grumpy]

131. Who's playing victim? Do you have anything of substance to add?

I get sick of snarky substance-less posts.

[morningfog]

135. I made my point, nothing more to add.

[Orsino]

145. Get someone else to check his/her privilege.

Repeat.