I've been repeatedly questioned about Sea Stars - starfish controversy, so

[RobertEarl]

Previous wasting disease of sea stars could have been because of Chernobyl and weapon testing. Pretty much anywhere in the N. Hemisphere. Those deposits could be contributors. The DoE report below details that they still find traces in the sea life from Alaska tests.

Now we have Fukushima. Not only did it make deposits via air transport, but it now has been found in the NW pacific as described in another link below.

It is adding up. Spreading. The whole N. Pacific is now contaminated. Not making this up, it is all real science as linked below.

*********************

Fukushima-related radioactive materials measured across entire Northern Hemisphere

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110407121343.htm

""Since the double disaster of the 9.0 magnitude earthquake and tsunami that affected hundreds of thousands of people and seriously damaged the Fukushima Daichi power plant in Japan on 11 March 2011, minute traces of radioactive emissions from Fukushima have spread across the entire Northern Hemisphere. A monitoring network designed to detect signs of nuclear explosions picked up these traces from the stricken power plant. To date, more than 30 radionuclide stations that are part of the International Monitoring System have provided information on the spread of radioactive particles and noble gases from the Fukushima accident.""

*************************


In this report from the DOE, US government, it is described why they test for radioisotopes, where they test, when they test and some test findings. Note the excerpted listing for plutonium found in the mussels that were tested. This finding confirms the idea that plutonium can be passed up the food chain to the starfish.

http://www.lm.doe.gov/Amchitka/Sites.aspx

Title: Department of Energy: Biological Monitoring at Amchitka Appears to Show Impacts from Fukushima Dai-ichi Incident.

The U.S. Department of Energy Office Legacy Management (LM) has a long-term stewardship mission to protect human health and the environment from the legacy of underground nuclear testing conducted at Amchitka Island, Alaska, from 1965 to 1971. Atmospheric monitoring in the United States showed elevated cesium activities shortly after the nuclear incident. LM scientists anticipated that atmospheric transport of cesium would potentially increase the cesium activities in the 2011 biological samples collected near Amchitka. Because cesium-134 has a relatively short half-life of 2 years and indicates leakage from a nuclear reactor, it is a clear indicator of a recent nuclear accident.

Because the Amchitka 2011 sampling event occurred soon after the Fukushima nuclear accident, the biota impacted by atmospheric precipitation showed the greatest impact (e.g., species that live in freshwater or shallow ocean waters) when compared to marine biota living in deeper water. This is because ocean currents are a slower transport process than wind currents. LM scientists anticipate that the marine biota will show the impacts of Fukushima during the next sampling event, currently scheduled to occur in 2016.

(One snip from report about the amounts found pg 226)

* Plutonium-239 — 4.194 pCi/kg Horse Mussel tissue

******************

Starfish facts


Diet of the starfish >> source wikipedia

Most species are generalist predators, eating microalgae, sponges, bivalves, snails and other small animals. Some species are detritivores, eating decomposing organic material and faecal matter. The crown-of-thorns starfish consumes coral polyps. The processes of feeding and capture may be aided by special parts; Pisaster brevispinus, the short-spined pisaster from the West Coast of America, can use a set of specialized tube feet to dig itself deep into the soft substrate to extract prey (usually clams). Grasping the shellfish, the starfish slowly pries open the prey's shell by wearing out its abductor muscle, and then inserts its inverted stomach into the crack to digest the soft tissues. The gap between the valves need only be a fraction of a millimeter wide for the stomach to gain entry.


*****************
Ecological impact of starfish >>>> source wikipedia

Starfish devouring mussel
Pisaster ochraceus consuming a mussel in central California

Starfish are keystone species in their respective marine communities. Their relatively large sizes, diverse diets and ability to adapt to different environments makes them ecologically important. The term "keystone species" was in fact first used by Robert Paine in 1966 to describe a starfish, Pisaster ochraceus. When studying the low intertidal coasts of Washington state, Paine found that predation by P. ochraceus was a major factor in the diversity of species. Experimental removals of this top predator from a stretch of shoreline resulted in lower species diversity and the eventual domination of Mytilus mussels, which were able to outcompete other organisms for space and resources. Similar results were found in a 1971 study of Stichaster australis on the intertidal coast of the South Island of New Zealand. S. australis was found to have removed most of a batch of transplanted mussels within two or three months of their placement, while in an area from which S. australis had been removed, the mussels increased in number dramatically, overwhelming the area and threatening biodiversity.



Survival of ocean warming and ph change for mussels

A 2009 study found that P. ochraceus is unlikely to be affected by ocean acidification as severely as other marine animals with calcareous skeletons. In other groups, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution when the pH is lowered. Researchers found that when P. ochraceus were exposed to 21 °C (70 °F) and 770 ppm carbon dioxide (beyond rises expected in the next century), they were relatively unaffected. Their survivability is likely due to the nodular nature of their skeletons, which are able to compensate for a shortage of carbonate by growing more fleshy tissue.


******************

Links and other sources

Lead Researcher: Fukushima pollution may be causing sea star epidemic on West Coast — Sea urchins, sea cucumbers also affected — “Something’s making them susceptible”… “It’s unlike anything we’ve seen”… “Populations go locally extinct overnight, literally”
http://enenews.com/lead-researcher-fukushima-pollution-a-cause-of-epidemic-wiping-out-starfish-along-west-coast-sea-urchins-and-sea-cucumbers-also-affected-something-is-making-them-susceptible-infection-it

Experts: Fukushima can’t be excluded as factor in sea stars turning to goo along West Coast; It hasn’t been ruled out — They’re “particularly proficient” at absorbing radioisotopes; 1,000 times more plutonium than fish
http://enenews.com/colonies-of-starfish-turning-to-mush-disintegrating-into-white-goo-experts-we-cant-exclude-fukushima-radiation-it-hasnt-been-ruled-out-starfish-particularly-proficient-at-absorbing-ra


*************************

Newest report of Fukushima contamination in the Pacific

This report describes how radionuclides from Fukushima were found in the water offshore in the Pacific. The report is the first to detail this fact. It goes on to say that the contamination is due to reach shore this year. And that much more sampling must be done.

http://www.pices.int/publications/presentations/PICES-2013/2013-MEQ/MEQ-1700-Smith.pdf

*************
At this site is a request for funding for more pacific research of Fukushima contamination:
http://phys.org/news/2014-01-radioactive-ocean.html

***********************

From a counter opinion site

At the following link from Deep Sea News, in the comments section, one commenter offered up some good suggestions to the scientists there.

http://deepseanews.com/2013/12/three-reasons-why-fukushima-radiation-has-nothing-to-do-with-starfish-wasting-syndrome/

*****************Quote:

Epidemiologically, are not the factors you have raised direct evidence of the impact of potassium/caesium and Calcium/Strontium ionic replacement? Four points:

1. Perhaps more so than any other sea creature, K and Ca are the critical minerals for starfish. Starfish have complex K and Ca exchange, uptake and shedding mechanisms.

2. Sr and Cs are notorious Ca and K emulators respectively.

3. A single Sr90 or Cs137 atom resident in a starfish for a few days would release enough energy to create soft tissue trauma (mutative effects inclusive). Biological response? Uptake K to attempt a heal, and more K to attempt to shed the damaged arm. Effect? More potential Cs and Sr intake. What happens when the starfish gets multiplicitous shed messages from 10-20 atomic trauma centres throughout its whole body? It melts.

3. Sr and Cs are found in trace levels in every one of the places that SWS is now occuring, and have been for a number of years now. This is as a direct consequence of the US Government nuclear policies, and its shoddy and slipshod waste management practices. Sure, Fukushima is a slow moving toxic tidal wave, and you haven’t even started to see the true effects. But the killer genie was out of the bottle years ago.

4. Go and run some tests. Get relatively pure water from the deep South Pacific, and healthy starfish from the same region. Put a sick starfish in with the healthy ones. Then try adding some radioactive isotopes at trace levels. Break the story.

***********************

The ocean ecologists are alarmed

Here is a link to a research study concerning the starfish.

http://www.eeb.ucsc.edu/pacificrockyintertidal/data-products/sea-star-wasting/

[FSogol]

1. Real science and enenews don't belong on the same page. n/t

[RobertEarl]

3. Sure it does

Enenews.com is just an assembly of mainstream sources with a sound dose of democracy in that real people on the site discuss the issues. You are free to post there.

I get that the news makes a lot of people very uncomfortable and causes lots of denial. I get it. But knowledge is empowering, so go read and if you have a particular question just ask.

[FSogol]

7. When you state: "The whole N. Pacific is now contaminated" and then offer to

answer any scientific questions I might have, I gotta chuckle. Not sure I'd trust you to answer, "where does milk come from?"

[RobertEarl]

15. Ask away

Did you read any of the links?

I trust that you will ask intelligent and probing questions, as would any intelligent person.

[Demo_Chris]

59. Milk is just pulp free cow juice. nt

[Orrex]

2. .

[RobertEarl]

4. No image shown here

But so good to see your name again. When I see your replies to my OP's I know I am having an impact on the deniers.

[Orrex]

13. .

[RobertEarl]

16. No images here

Is there something you can say? I guess you are speechless?

I know you can't stand me. I wonder how many times you have served on a jury of my posts.

[oldhippie]

18. If you knew enough to use your jury blacklist ...

... there would be none.

You DO know about the jury blacklist, don't you?

[Orrex]

22. Do you generate a lot of hide-worthy posts?

As far as I know, I've never served on one of your juries.

What makes you think that I can't stand you? Until you started spouting your wild, comic-book-esque theories of radiation impact, I never even noticed you.

[RobertEarl]

29. Wild theories?

Heh. Did you click on and read any of the links? Just one? If you did, we can discuss it. Otherwise, thanks for the kicks.

[Orrex]

30. You rely heavily on unreliable source material

The discussion is over as soon as you post, in most cases.

[RobertEarl]

31. So, the answer is NO

You refuse to read any of the links?

And refuse to discuss. Hmmmm. Good thing most of DU is not the same.

[Orrex]

32. So, the answer is YES

However, some of your claims (meaningful east coast US exposure to Fukushima radiation, blaming Fukushima for starfish deaths pre-dating Fukushima, etc.) don't withstand even casual scrutiny, so I'm not inclined to venture further down that nonsensical road.

I lack the chops to get into a deeper discussion about it, so I defer to those with greater expertise in the field.

[RobertEarl]

34. Now that's better

Like I said in the OP, given how much nuclear radiation we have inflicted in the pacific over decades, it should come as no surprise that previous events were also related.

If you read some of the given links, you may get some chops?

Given that Fukushima did deliver quite a few doses to the US continent, and that rain washes heavy metals to the ocean where starfish live, it is quite within reason that the starfish in the Atlantic ate some of it.

The main event in the pacific did begin after the air depositions from Fukushima. And the winds carried the nuclear material across the continent, even around the whole N. hemisphere, as explained in one of the links in the OP.

[NuclearDem]

24. Stop it Orrex!

[Orrex]

33. Who? Me?

[NuclearDem]

9. Pahahaha

[maddezmom]

14. Perfect!

[RobertEarl]

20. I see my fan club lining up

Unfortunately, I am embarrassed for them.

Well, some of care about the sea stars and what could be killing them.

[maddezmom]

23. Oh so sweet of you to be embarrassed

[RobertEarl]

26. I'm not

But for the members of my fan club. I love you guys following me. Makes for lots of kicks and more reads.

[zappaman]

27. Happy to kick and let people read your nonsense of an OP!

[dionysus]

48. come on man, don't kick a guy when he's digging his own hole deeper.. have some respect!

[maddezmom]

28. Not sure I would consider it a fan club per se

But posting the same nonsense over and over will get people to notice your posts.

[zappaman]

25. Some of us know what ISN'T killing the starfish and...

some of us keep spouting NONSENSE that it is Fukushima.
ENENews!!!!

[snooper2]

58. Sea Stars Um Yummy LOL

[Codeine]

5. Wharrgarbl!!!

[RobertEarl]

6. Hey codiene

Sorry can't see your images. What a shame.

Anyway, thanks for kicking.

I know reading science is hard for some folks and I apologize for all the links, but people keep questioning me so i thought I'd jut bring it back together in a new post so that they can be made informed.

[Codeine]

10. It's cute when you say "science" like you know what it means.

You're a Chicken Little alarmist who has every single talking point routinely refuted by more-educated posters, but you still keep blithering the same old blather. Points for enthusiasm, I suppose.

[RobertEarl]

12. No I have not been refuted

What makes you say that?

All I have done is used the scientific method of looking at available evidence. My antagonists have not. I bet most even refuse to click on any of the links.

[NuclearDem]

8. Posting the same thing over and over again

Doesn't make it any more correct.

[RobertEarl]

11. Summary

Sea stars are dieing off on the Pacific Northwest.

Marine biologists are studying the event and as yet have not been able to claim what is causing the die off.

It may be radiation from nuclear radiation, it may not. But it is a cause for concern any time mass wasting of sea creatures becomes evident.

[broiles]

17. Excellent post, thanks.

[RobertEarl]

21. Thanks

But watch out, my fan club will be watching you. Be careful.

[zappaman]

19. Yup!

[GeorgeGist]

35. From your last source ...

Importantly there is no evidence at all that links the current wasting event to the ongoing disaster at the Fukushima nuclear facility in Japan.

BOLDED IN ORIGINAL.

http://www.eeb.ucsc.edu/pacificrockyintertidal/data-products/sea-star-wasting/

[RobertEarl]

36. Right

That's why I posted it. If i wanted to be unfair and deceiving, I would not have posted that link, eh?

But...... let us consider why they made that statement.

First, what if they said it was related? They would have been jumped on by all the nuke-supporters in the world and their lawyers. Not to mention any funding for the study would have dried up instantly. Amirite?

Too, they don't have the science to declare what is causing the die off. Read another way: They don't know.

All i have done is present a possible reason. And presented more than one side, with that link.

I have been following that link for months now and they still don't know.

[zappaman]

38. heh.

so now it's a conspiracy.
kick so others can see this nonsense.

[RobertEarl]

40. Did you hear Japan passed a Fukushima secrets law?

Yep. People in Japan can go to jail for saying something bad about Fukushima.

There is a story about a woman getting in trouble with that law already.
Linked on that awful, stinky, Enenews.com website.

There is a thread about it on DU now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024946139

[FBaggins]

42. Nope

They passed a state secrets law (pretty much the same as every other advanced country)

People say bad things about Fukushima in Japan tens of thousands of times a day... including major news outlets.

There is a story about a woman getting in trouble with that law already.

Also untrue. She ran afoul of a decades-old law against defamation. That's not at all uncommon in Japan (where the law is far stricter than what you're used to).

[hobbit709]

37. Einstein's definition applies here.

[RobertEarl]

39. I need a better class of fan club

Einstein thought the day might come when we destroyed the planet with nuke power. I am hoping we can keep that from happening. But everyday that hope dies a little more every day because some just are oblivious.

[FBaggins]

41. No you haven't (been questioned)

You've been laughed at.

At some point... you need to realize that.

[Octafish]

43. Plutonium got spread worldwide. Yet fools pretend there's nothing wrong.

Journal of Environmental Radioactivity
2012 Dec;1141-80. doi: 10.1016/j.jenvrad.2011.12.004. Epub 2011 Dec 27.

Radionuclides from the Fukushima accident in the air over Lithuania: measurement and modelling approaches.

Authors: Lujanienė G1, Byčenkienė S, Povinec PP, Gera M.

Abstract
Analyses of (131)I, (137)Cs and (134)Cs in airborne aerosols were carried out in daily samples in Vilnius, Lithuania after the Fukushima accident during the period of March-April, 2011. The activity concentrations of (131)I and (137)Cs ranged from 12 μBq/m(3) and 1.4 μBq/m(3) to 3700 μBq/m(3) and 1040 μBq/m(3), respectively. The activity concentration of (239,240)Pu in one aerosol sample collected from 23 March to 15 April, 2011 was found to be 44.5 nBq/m(3). The two maxima found in radionuclide concentrations were related to complicated long-range air mass transport from Japan across the Pacific, the North America and the Atlantic Ocean to Central Europe as indicated by modelling. HYSPLIT backward trajectories and meteorological data were applied for interpretation of activity variations of measured radionuclides observed at the site of investigation. (7)Be and (212)Pb activity concentrations and their ratios were used as tracers of vertical transport of air masses. Fukushima data were compared with the data obtained during the Chernobyl accident and in the post Chernobyl period. The activity concentrations of (131)I and (137)Cs were found to be by 4 orders of magnitude lower as compared to the Chernobyl accident. The activity ratio of (134)Cs/(137)Cs was around 1 with small variations only. The activity ratio of (238)Pu/(239,240)Pu in the aerosol sample was 1.2, indicating a presence of the spent fuel of different origin than that of the Chernobyl accident.

Copyright © 2011 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22206700

Don't stop your good work, RobertEarl. If all were OK, there wouldn't be so much organized opposition.

[NuclearDem]

44. You've got a funny definition of good work.

Considering how even other anti-nuclear posters think his claims are ridiculous.

The pushback isn't because there's something to hide about Fukushima. The pushback is because of people being sick of the constant science fail.

[Octafish]

52. I don't care. I respect the poster of the OP.

If you disagree with the science, post your own studies.

[NuclearDem]

57. What exactly do you respect?

Blatantly misrepresenting studies and news? Refusal to correct previous arguments pointed out to be wrong? Delving into ridiculous personal attacks when an argument is shown to be flawed?

Frankly, at this point, I don't have to cite anything. I'm not making any claims; I'm simply not accepting certain claims. I only have to actually read the sources provided at this point, since previous history suggests there's a high chance of cherrypicking data, misinterpreting the study, or deliberately misrepresenting the results.

[RobertEarl]

60. Thanks Octafish

Clearly there are two sides here. One side is for the people, a clean environment and a future free from more nuclear waste spread around the world.

The other side is for the nuke industry getting away with polluting the planet for their greedy ambitions.

That we have been polluted by nuclear radiation is evident. It is well known. But we see some here claiming otherwise.

[FBaggins]

49. You keep citing that paper - though you've been corrected

They don't know that they found any plutonium from Fukushima... only that they found some that didn't match the composition from Chernobyl.

The VAST majority of plutonium in the atmosphere today is from nuclear weapons testing. 45 Bq per cubic kilometer is well within the levels for Pu found prior to Fukushima.

[Octafish]

51. Corrected? Where?

Show me, please. If it's wrong, I'll apologize.

[FBaggins]

54. Here's the latest that I see

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4456057

[Octafish]

55. Yet, there are no links to sources or articles. Just your word, FBaggins.

And that doesn't mean much. Which is why, FYI, I use links to articles and source my posts.

[FBaggins]

56. It was your link

I was just reading it for you.

They don't say that they found plutonium from Fukushima.

All I did was explain why that was. If there's something in there that you need links for... just ask.

[RobertEarl]

50. Thanks, Octafish

Snip from your report:

The activity ratio of (238)Pu/(239,240)Pu in the aerosol sample was 1.2, indicating a presence of the spent fuel of different origin than that of the Chernobyl accident.

Some of that plutonium only lasts what, a couple hundred thousand years?
And before nukes there was so very little of it on the planet, now there's enough to kill over and over again and again.

I keep going because lots of people are having their first chance to see some facts about Fukushima. My fan club helps to kick the ideas and make for more views.

More facts out of the dark, maybe less innocents get blindsided?

[Octafish]

53. There should be plenty of reports, but, for some reason, the funding's not there.

On both sides of the Pacific. Until then, please keep up the good work of letting us know what you find.

Ocean water off La Jolla coast being monitored (and not) for Fukushima radiation

By Pat Sherman
La Jolla Light, Feb. 4, 2014

EXCERPT...

In 2011 Thiemens and a crew of UCSD atmospheric chemists reported the first quantitative measurement of the amount of radiation leaked from the damaged nuclear reactor in Fukushima, following the devastating earthquake and tsunami there.

Their estimate was based on radioactive sulfur that wafted across the Pacific Ocean after operators of the damaged reactor had to cool overheated fuel with seawater — causing a chemical reaction between byproducts of nuclear fission and chlorine ions in the saltwater.

Thiemens has, for the past several years, unsuccessfully sought to obtain grant funding to follow-up his research, first reported on Aug. 15 2011 in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

[font color="red"]However, he said neither the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Environmental Protection Agency, California Air Resources Board or National Academy of Sciences (of which he is a member) were interested in funding additional research to measure the Fukushima fallout[/font color].

“It’s probably one of these things that just fell through the cracks,” Thiemens said. “It doesn’t quite fall under classical (research criteria).”

CONTINUED...

http://www.lajollalight.com/2014/02/04/ocean-water-off-la-jolla-coast-being-monitored-for-fukushima-radiation/

Better to know what might be a problem than be ignorant of what is a problem. As for those who want to keep everybody in the dark, they are most undemocratic, among other things.

[SidDithers]

45. DU rec #5...

'Cause this thread belongs on The Greatest.

Sid

[FBaggins]

46. Lol!

Like the one that claimed that Fukushima was heating up the Pacific Ocean..

... or the recent claim that the WIPP release was caused by a nuclear explosion.

[SidDithers]

47. Pure gold...

every one of them.

Sid