Duggars visit fertility doctor to explore having 20th kid

[Jesus Malverde]

Nineteen isn’t enough. Michelle and Jim Bog Duggar, the reality star parents who star in TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting—shared on the Today Show this morning that they’d want to expand their brood if it’s medically possible.

In the segment, Michelle, 47, visits a fertility doctor in Little Rock Arkansas to determine whether she can become pregnant again.

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2014/05/20/duggars-visit-fertility-doctor-to-explore-having-20th-kid/#1738101=0

[Nye Bevan]

1. DUers to switch into anti-choice, vagina-disparaging mode in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, ........ (nt)

Last edited Wed May 21, 2014, 11:36 AM - Edit history (1)

[JI7]

4. there is a difference between supporting policy banning choice and giving opinon on an issue

[Hekate]

29. Animating trolling and flame-baiting ....NOW. Thank you for your participation. nt

[geek tragedy]

43. Very odd to have one's primary reaction be "aha I can catch

those stupid libruls being hypocrites."

[Nye Bevan]

48. How liberal is "Fiat through her beaver" (post 39) and "Vagina not a clown car" (post 66)?

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

To me the "odd" thing is how predictable such sexist, disparaging and judgmental comments are in Duggar threads.

[geek tragedy]

49. Feel free to alert. nt

[geek tragedy]

46. LMAO could you be more blatant in your trolling.

See:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024978997#post2

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink
Response to KittyWampus (Original post)Tue May 20, 2014, 07:41 PM
Nye Bevan (15,619 posts)
2. Dumb to include the pictures with the babies.

I'm not saying these teenage mothers should be branded with a scarlet letter, or excluded from the yearbook; their pictures should be included along with all their classmates. But glorifying teenage motherhood by including pictures of them with their babies is just dumb.
Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

[Nye Bevan]

50. Are my posts more offensive to you than "Fiat through her beaver"? (post 39)

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 09:34 PM - Edit history (2)

On edit: thank you for suggesting that I alert that post. I did just that, and it was hidden.

"It's a vagina, not a clown car" is still there, however. (post 66)

[geek tragedy]

52. The first post in this thread was your preemptive outrage. nt

[liberalhistorian]

123. WOW! Thanks for that little "find"!

So, I suppose he would let the teenage fathers completely off the hook, then? Wow, again. Jeebus. And he has the nerve to complain about "sexist, disparaging comments" on Duggar threads.

[alphafemale]

97. Being mocked for bad CHOICES is NOT stopping her from MAKING bad CHOICES.

Mocking someones bad CHOICES is called a First Amendment right

Our mocking their popping our humans for fame and profit in NO WAY blocks their right to do so.

You are in a long line of people that thinks a RIGHT to do something means no consequences.

There is No Such Thing as a right to not have people say negative things against something you are doing.

Or that you should have ZERO consequences for Poor choices.

[Tsiyu]

103. ^^^^^^^THIS is an important concept^^^^^^^^

Having an opinion about someone is not the same thing as oppressing or denying that someone their rights.

[alphafemale]

150. Many people do not seem able to grasp that.

Last edited Thu May 22, 2014, 05:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Being openly disagreed with is not a violation of your rights.

[Orrex]

160. Damn.

Magnificent post!

[Shoulders of Giants]

212. The Duggars appear to have enough money for a 20th kid.

I don't think they will suffer the consequences. I'm sure they have made plenty of money to raise their kids from that TV show, various appearances, etc. However, having 20 kids isn't responsible. This planet has finite resources, and if everyone had 20 kids, by the end of this century we would have around a trillion people on the planet. So unfortunately, its the rest of society that will ultimately suffer for their bad choices. And their kids, if they are getting tired of being born to be reality show entertainment.

[951-Riverside]

216. How is this a bad choice?

They've always supported their children using their own money.

Why is it anyone's business what they do?

[alphafemale]

217. Having the money to do something makes it a good choice?

Have you thought that through?

And it isn't even the busload of children as the way they are raising these children both isolated from normal society yet parading these children in the public spotlight.

[sarge43]

219. You might asked their children, all 19 of them, about that.

No doubt materially they're cared for. Emotionally is something else. How much individual care do they get, how individual attention, any privacy just to think and dream? Have the older children, especially the girls, been turned into substitute mothers? All nineteen of those children are perfectly healthy, physically and emotionally, no special needs?

Not everyone is suited to mature while in a mob scene

[NuclearDem]

106. The only anti-choice people involved here are the Duggars themselves.

[liberalhistorian]

124. That's my main issue with them.

I don't care how many kids they have, if they feel that that is right for them, and the kids are treated right; and they do appear, by all counts, to be loving, caring, involved parents even if I disagree with some of their specific positions. But they seem to feel that what is right for them should be what EVERYONE else is doing, also, and that there's something wrong with a couple who don't want to have a gazillion kids, that it's somehow their "duty" to do so (remember, they're in the "quiverful" movement, albeit "kinder, gentler" representatives of it). And I get the feeling that a theocracy would suit them just fine. And their conservative, rigid notion of traditional gender roles is also not-so-cool. If it works for them, fine, but don't put it on everyone else.

[AtheistCrusader]

117. No, but I WILL mock them

for going back on their 'we'll have as many kids as god gives us' BS, in order to appeal to science for a 20th chance.

[treestar]

156. good point. the concept of her and infertility is simply outrageous

She's fertile. And she's reached the end, most likely.

[geardaddy]

192. This ^ N/t

[get the red out]

226. Good one!

If God decides, how can the fertility doctor be ok?

[AnalystInParadise]

143. That is so true and so funny...

I think I scared the girl in Starbucks I laughed so loud when I read this..........Some people around here just won't let the Duggars be the Duggars. Their freakshow is not my cup of tea, but if they can give a loving home to 451 kids and her body can handle that work load, who are any of us to protest.

[TBF]

181. You're not even trying anymore. nt

[City Lights]

209. Who is saying they shouldn't be allowed to do this?

That would be anti-choice.

People are just commenting on a family with a TEEVEE SHOW.

[pstokely]

2. isn't gawd telling them they're too old to keep popping out tax deductions?

Isn't seeking medical to conceive help going against gawd, or does that only concern abortion and birth control, not conception?

[orpupilofnature57]

11. My wife just mentioned that Mrs. Duggar said on their show

" As many as God allows me to have " .

[pstokely]

13. I think Gawd isn't allowing them to have anymore natural kids

[AtheistCrusader]

116. Wow, unanimous jury.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed May 21, 2014, 01:05 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think that the alternate spelling of "Gawd" shows that this is an ironic comment, meant to sound like it comes from an RW God worshipper. Many of the Christian sects decry fertility treatments, and talk about letting God decide how many children they have, and that doing so is the only natural (read 'right') thing to do. SO by saying "natural kids" the poster is poking fun at the hypocrisy of the Duggars and their ilk.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh, for heaven's sake, post is OK, alerter is really trying to be offended by nothing.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: As someone who went through an IVF cycle, sticking my wife in the ass/belly with a whole cocktail of drugs every day for weeks leading up to harvesting the eggs, spinning down my contribution in a centrifuge, introducing 9 eggs to the product of the spin cycle, selecting 2 best candidates from the 7 resulting fertilized eggs for implantation, cannot and should not be described as 'natural' insofar as comparing it to regular fun-timey conception.

It is also possible for the resulting child to be 'natural', even if the means of conception was 'unnatural'. So, meh.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This IS the DUGGARS..... there can never be a family w/ more need for birth control, much less fertility TREATMENTS!!!! These ppl are just so into the 'Quiver Movement' that they are making me physically ill.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[liberalhistorian]

125. Wow, I cannot believe that someone

actually alerted on that post! That is just......wow.

[LeftyMom]

139. DU has a handfull of perpetually offended religious people. One of them probably thought "Gawd"

was the most scandalous thing they've ever seen. It wouldn't surprise me.

[AtheistCrusader]

155. That could have been the motivator.

'unnatural' might have been faux outrage cover for the true meaning of the alert.

[Packerowner740]

205. WTF is "gawd"?

You keep posting this made up word

Ah, just read the post on the alert and allow to stand.

[Goblinmonger]

207. Have you never read anything written in dialect?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Packerowner740]

211. Not that I have really thought about it.

[oneofthe99]

14. I'm sure they are paid a 6 figure income for the show

if they can afford another kid ...let them


It's the women and men that can't afford 1 child and decide to have another that is troublesome

[pstokely]

16. they're against birth control, but are fine with fertility treatments?

?

[oneofthe99]

17. It's nobody business how they choose to think or how to have a child

I didn't even know who the hell they were until I opened this thread.

If they are activists in some type of political sense then they deserve criticism
by trying to push their beliefs on others ....are they?

If not , if they can afford another child so what....

[LeftyMom]

32. They are activists. Their TV show pushes quiverfull, they do abortion protests,

the father held office in Arkansas, the oldest son works for Family Research Council Action, one of the other boys is making noises about getting into politics. For that matter, the whole idea behind quiverfull is "militant fecundity," the aim is outnumbering the rest of us so they can take over the country and turn it theocratic. The breeding itself is activism as they see it.

[SoCalNative]

36. And because they have had their home declared a church

you and I foot the bill supporting their out of control breeding.

[JI7]

38. no, they make money from that TLC show

[RockaFowler]

168. And pay no taxes

[Beaverhausen]

200. 19 kids are very expensive

I bet that show doesn't pay enough to take care of all of them.

[JI7]

202. they do, they have had the show for a while, but you are right about long term

and how much they can support additional family. just look at josh duggar who got married and now has 3 kids. he got a job with the right wing family research council so that will help him for a while. but i think they mostly hired him for the publicity they would get from it. and i can't see them doing the same for every other kid.

but mostly i think jim bob is looking to collect rent from land and property for the future.

the show has given him some millions . it's probably been on for about 10 years now.

[hughee99]

177. Ridiculous, isn't it?

We shouldn't be financially supporting someone reproductive choice unless they make the RIGHT choice... or at least have the right political beliefs. :sarcams:

[liberalhistorian]

128. Josh works for the Family

Research Council? REALLY? Wow, didn't know that. I should have figured, though, that really doesn't surprise me much come to think of it.

[alp227]

130. yep that's Wingnut Welfare for ya.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wingnut_welfare

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wingnut%20welfare

[LeftyMom]

133. I was surprised when they hired him because he's stupid and lazy.

There are plenty of young fundies with his politics and a better education and work ethic.

[Packerowner740]

206. My wife just told me the oldest son has three kids and the fourth is in the oven

Guess they are going to try to beat the parents in number of children.

[Iggo]

51. When they put out a press release, it's everybody's business.

[dballance]

91. THEY have made it EVERYONE'S business.

They have a reality TV show about them and their 19 kids. They have made it the business of everyone with a TV in the world to have an opinion about how they think or choose to have a child.

The only good thing about them being on TV is they're probably being compensated well and have the finances to care for all those kids.

[treestar]

158. They think it is their business that others decide not to have a child

as most right wingers do.

[get the red out]

227. They have a TV show about it

They make it EVERYONE'S business for $$$$$.

If people don't want others commenting on their business, then showing their lives in a reality TV show isn't the way to go.

[AtheistCrusader]

232. They have anti-progressive family planning positions. Very publicly so.

So, if you didn't know who they were before this thread...

You don't know who the opposition to, for instance, access to abortion in the US, is.
Know your enemy. It is them.

[Thinkingabout]

24. I agree with you, if they don't believe in preventing them why go the fertility treatments.

[Hekate]

33. I wonder if they've considered how many zygotes are wasted in fertility treatments. OTOH...

... Maybe the Duggars figure that if they have a whole bunch frozen she can go on making babies in perpetuity.

But it does strike me as against their Gawd's Will to thwart His plans for her to go through menopause. It's a weird state of mind -- I don't pretend to understand it, but perhaps Nye Bevan will chime in and enlighten us.

[LeftyMom]

37. They're probably seeing if she can get hormones to supplement a pregnancy.

Her bestie/rival Kelly Jo Bates did that and got a few more babies out of it.

[LisaL]

47. At this age, hormones aren't likely to help.

She'd likely have to go IVF and use eggs of a younger woman.
Considering she already has 19 kids, why she'd want to do that is beyond my understanding.

[MattBaggins]

56. One upmanship

They are incredibly vain

[LeftyMom]

57. That would be against her religon, hormones wouldn't.

They've also made some noises about adopting, but I'd be amazed if they follow through with it because they're part of ATI and ATI teaches that adopted children bring the intergenerational curses of their birth families into the adopted home.

[LisaL]

60. I don't think hormones are likely to help.

[LeftyMom]

62. At her age it seems unlikely.

Considering the outcomes of her last two pregnancies (a micropreemie birth and a fetal demise) I can't imagine any doctor would tell her that conceiving again would be likely to end well, no matter how it happened.

But I'm sure that she's going to investigate the option that worked for her friend before she officially gives up. Two of the daughters are engaged and I suspect she'd really like to be pregnant at the same time they are. Anything to stay in the spotlight a little longer.

[nilesobek]

75. I know . It almost seems

like a competitive contest. I wonder what the world record holder for childbirth is?

[LisaL]

93. Mrs. Duggar is nowhere near the record.

"The greatest officially recorded number of children born to one mother is 69, to the wife of Feodor Vassilyev (b. 1707–c.1782), a peasant from Shuya, Russia. In 27 confinements she gave birth to 16 pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets and four sets of quadruplets."

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/3000/most-prolific-mother-ever

[treestar]

162. OMG

All those multiple births - what are the odds? I wonder if that can really be confirmed.

[liberalhistorian]

129. Again, they were NOT

going for, or considering, fertility treatments, they were simply going for an assessment of her chances of getting pregnant again or to see if she was in menopause or premenopause.

[treestar]

159. 47 is her age and

that's a very late age for anyone to have a child. I think she's done. This attempt shows she is insane on the subject.

[liberalhistorian]

127. As I understand it, they weren't

looking to start any type of fertility treatments. They just wanted the docs to assess Michelle's chances of another pregnancy and find out some natural things they could do to help it along, if that were possible. The doc ended up taking some blood samples from her to try to determine if she were in menopause or pre-menopause or not and they said they'd accept it and move along if she were. The doc did say that he thought there was only a slim chance that she'd get pregnant again. Considering that she's had twenty pregnancies over the past 26 years, and her last two pregnancies were extremely difficult (the last daughter was born three months prematurely and almost didn't survive, and Michelle had medical issues also, and her last pregnancy ended in a miscarriage at eighteen weeks), I think her body IS trying to tell them something. She is, after all, nearly 48.

Again, I don't have a problem with them doing any of this, since it works for THEM and it's what THEY want to do. What I have the problem with is their belief that it should be for everyone else and that it's the "duty" of a couple to have as many children as possible, and their belief that they have the right to make personal morality decisions, including whether or not to continue a pregnancy and how many children to have, for everyone else, not just themselves.

[onecaliberal]

186. Very good point

Wonderfully documents the hypocrisy of their fake argument.

[Live and Learn]

148. So, the poor shouldn't be allowed to reproduce?

Hmmm...

[treestar]

157. Very true. In her 40s, maybe it is naturally over

for her.

My parents came from Catholic families where they ended up with one last one from their early 40s, then no more.

[JI7]

3. maybe god doesn't want them to

[HockeyMom]

6. Hello, Michelle

You are approaching MENOPAUSE, and have 19 children, and are a Grandma. You are a human being and not a breed mare. Even they have a time to when nature/god says you are OLD and not more childbearing.

[Nye Bevan]

9. ... note that in this thread judging and criticizing a woman's choices is positively encouraged.

Comments ridiculing her reproductive organs (such as "clown car&quot are especially welcome.

Carry on.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

18. Interesting that you're the only one who has said 'clown car'.

A wee bit of trolling to stave off boredom?

[Nye Bevan]

19. See post 66 below. Predictable as always (nt)

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 09:28 PM - Edit history (1)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

22. Ah, so you're pulling in old fights

to throw at people in this thread, rather than what people are actually saying here.

She's got the choice, they've got the money, but it's irresponsible behaviour nonetheless. People do have the freedom to choose to do stupid things, including driving the world even farther into overpopulation when humanity is already drawing down resources faster than they can be renewed.

[Nye Bevan]

42. We've got "Fiat through her beaver" and comparing her vagina to a slip-n-slide

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 09:25 PM - Edit history (1)

in posts 39 and 40 below. It was just a matter of time.

..... and sure enough, the inevitable "clown car" post is here (see post 66)

[AnalystInParadise]

144. You're fighting the good fight

but let the hypocritical peeps be hypocrites. Just makes it easier to identify them in the future.

[HockeyMom]

25. She has had one miscarriage already in her advanced age

Excuse me, but it is not like she is CHILDLESS and wants to have a baby before menopause ends that. Will she still be seeking fertiflity treatment to compete for the oldest, most fertile woman alive when she is in her 60s?

She has her 19 children. At her age she is risking her life, her unborn's life, all for WHAT? Publicity? New TV show? $$$$? Guiness Book of Records?

Time to be happy being a GRANDMA.

[Nye Bevan]

26. Yes. This is absolutely your business.

Last edited Wed May 21, 2014, 11:30 AM - Edit history (1)

And the "Fiat through her beaver" and "Vagina is a clown car" comments are ENTIRELY appropriate.

Women are generally very appreciative when people comment on, judge, and make recommendations and suggestions concerning their choices of how many children to have.

[JI7]

28. they have a TV show and it's shown and discussed on their TV show

[HockeyMom]

31. So you would be fine if she sought

fertility treatments at 60? When she was a mother 19 times, and a grandmother to how many? Besides all the other points I made, I suspect their RELIGION (supported anti-birth control Catholic Santorum) is another major factor.

[LisaL]

44. She has a TV show.

So, yes, it's absolutely is our business.

[liberalhistorian]

131. And yet you can trash

teenage mothers and have no problem with that? Seriously? Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

[Daemonaquila]

175. Totally our business.

Michelle is not only a political and religious activist, but she has become the ultimate human product by becoming a "celebrity" on a reality TV show about her kooky beliefs and... the products of, and drama surrounding, her vagina. When she's using that celebrity as a pulpit to trumpet her politics, you damned well bet she's fair game.

The poutrage about anyone criticizing her choices is laughable. There's no pushback when people mock idiot preachers, self-hating conservative in-the-closet politicians, teabaggers seeking welfare so they can "guard" the Bundy ranch, etc. as hypocrites... but if it involves a vagina, LOOK OUT!!! Never mind that the freaks are pimping the Quiverfull movement at every turn and campaigning for pro-life republicans - how DARE we say anything?!?!?!? Get over it.

[AtheistCrusader]

233. Yeah, well, she's of the opinion that if you get pregnant you MUST carry to term.

Because to her, anything else is MURDER and baby jesus will spring fire-hose streams of bloody tears.

[treestar]

163. Yes. And taking care of the 19 she has.

That's plenty of children and will keep you busy 100% of the time. So really, it's for the publicity. How is it good for the 19 that she have even more? SMH.

[pstokely]

10. I think she's possibly addicted to pregnancy & labor

nt

[MrScorpio]

111. I actually knew a woman who had that addiction, a long time ago

She tried to recruit me once. Thank goodness for condoms.

I met her when she was pregnant. After she had the kid, she wanted to get pregnant again… I wouldn't bite.

We lost contact, but years later we both ended up in the DC area at the same time. Turns out she saw my face in an article for the base newspaper. We met up, just to catch up… Besides the sex, we were actually quite friendly towards each other.

Anyway, I found out that she got married and had THREE MORE KIDS.

WHOA!

Anyway, after a pleasant conversation, we both parted ways.

She was a sweet girl, but she definitely had a thing for having kids. Never met another woman like that ever.

[pstokely]

118. She's been pregnant for 14 years of her life

nt

[Hekate]

141. The wife of a cousin of my mother's: her ex told me she was only happy when she had a tiny infant...

...or was pregnant. They ended up with 11 or 12 kids before they split -- since the whole brood lived in another state my news of them was sketchy. First and foremost, there was my Mom's attitude: though she loved her cousin dearly and they were close in childhood, she did comment tartly to me that if he had a problem with his wife's endless pregnancies he certainly could have done something about his contribution to the process. Vasectomies were certainly available in the 1950s and 1960s -- my Dad had one.

You were lucky to escape, Mr Scorpio!

[littlemissmartypants]

220. Ditto. Oxytocin is a powerful drug. nt

[LisaL]

45. I think she is addicted to having children.

[yeoman6987]

105. If she had easier births to her other two pregnancies

I would be more sympathetic to her desires. However, she is really playing the odds. I am all for her having the right to do as she wishes for her body, but at this point, having another baby may kill her or another future baby. Again this is always a very thin line so as a guy, I will leave because it is true that we have very little say in a woman's choice. However, see everyone on another thread soon!

[littlemissmartypants]

221. Suicide by pregnancy? Maybe she is looking for a way

Out...I mean... to heaven to see gawd. Novel approach. But killing ones self is no joke.

[shenmue]

7. Don't they name all their kids with the same letter?

Drives me crazy.

[Nye Bevan]

12. I can see how that really would ruin your life.

You have my deepest, deepest sympathies.

[shenmue]

15. Sure

[liberalhistorian]

135. So what?

What business is that of anyone else's and what harm does it do? Seriously, who cares? That's like number five hundred million on a list of the world's top five million problems.

[get the red out]

228. Sooooo

They are allowed to criticize birth control and fight against abortion rights; and they put themselves on a TV show to promote their Quivverfull lifestyle, yet anyone criticizing the beliefs of their Quivverfull Cult is just terrible?

This is the kind of "support" for "women" (really support and defense of extreme right wing views and media monopoly) that has allowed abortion rights to be taken right and left.

[liberalhistorian]

234. If you will note my other posts on this thread

regarding them, their beliefs, and the dangerous quiverful movement, you will see that I totally agree with your premise on the dangers of their theocratic misogynistic positions and attempts to foist them on everyone else. But that has nothing to do with what they choose to name their children, which is, frankly, a very minor, inconsequential matter that has nothing to do with anything. Their dangerous beliefs are what we should focus on, and not a stupid matter of names. Focusing on the names just makes us look petty and takes away the focus from the absurdity and dangers of their true positions. There are plenty of non-quiverful, non-theocratic families that use the same system for naming their children, and there are plenty of quiverful families who don't. The names have nothing to do with anything, but the beliefs do.

[treestar]

164. Yes. J. They are going to run out of names anyway!

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Quiverful movement, look that up

and it will make perfect sense

[gollygee]

20. I thought I read that they were leaving the number of kids they had

up to God?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

21. You would think

That them having problems conceiving again would be, IDK, a sign from God or something that maybe their childbearing years are done. I respect their ability to make their own choices but still...........

[gollygee]

23. They can do whatever is legally available for them.

Didn't the mom have a lot of trouble this last pregnancy, though? I hope she keeps her health in mind.

[Hekate]

30. In the Quiverfull movement, the woman's health is entirely beside the point. nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

54. I don't think she is particularly concerned about it

She didn't seem to be all that concerned with what the fertility doctor was telling her about the potential risks and difficulties of pregnancy at her age.

[HERVEPA]

69. I don't give a shit about her health

[LisaL]

94. She has a huge number of children already that need a mother.

[HERVEPA]

152. They don't have a real mother.

The older ones are made to take care of the younger ones.
Her job is being a celebrity and right wing activist.

[Baitball Blogger]

27. This story isn't told until the children write their autobiographies.

[JI7]

35. i think a few of their kids would be liberal if they were exposed to the real world and

given some education .

these days they do have the internet and i always see them with ipads and smart phones so i hope they are getting info some way that their parents don't know about.

and the parents seem lazy . i notice the girls no longer dress in those ugly dresses and while they still mostly dress conservative it's much more normal looking.

[rrneck]

101. At this point that's a statistical certainty. nt

[treestar]

165. With that number, one of them at least is bound to

write something that will be very interesting. That will not entirely please the Duggars. One or two are bound to react by not having any kids at all or having just one or two and being vocal about why.

[liberalhistorian]

138. Good God, that is a disgusting

sickening thing to say!

[Nye Bevan]

41. YES. Disparaging comments about women's vaginas are VERY WELCOME on DU,

provided that they are made in Duggar threads.

And BONUS POINTS for calling it a "beaver".

[malokvale77]

53. Old woodsmen joke

Save a tree, eat a beaver.

[ProfessorGAC]

170. Your Needle Is Stuck

Just thought i'd let you know.

Having a bad point and repeating it over and over doesn't make it valid.

[NickB79]

55. Fertility treatments typically involve multiple embryos being created

6-10 eggs harvested and fertilized in a petri dish.

And with a woman of her age, you'll usually see the doctor implanting 3-4 embryos at once to ensure at least one or two take.

AND if it so happens that all 3-4 attach, the standard practice is to selectively abort a few of them, because a woman her age, having already born so many children and with a miscarriage in her medical history, would be putting her health in danger by carrying triplets (or more!).

So, if the Duggars believe life starts at conception, the idea of using in-vitro fertilization is pretty much a non-starter for them.

[LisaL]

59. I don't think anyone would even collect her eggs at her age.

They would have to take eggs from another, younger woman to create these embryos.
Obviously some embryos could/would die in the process.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. It would depend on her AMH

Last edited Wed May 21, 2014, 07:25 AM - Edit history (1)

If it's .015 - yes. But if it's 1.0 - then no. She could take Clomid too.

[cbdo2007]

190. There are many fertility treatments that occur before IVF comes into the picture.

[KoKo]

58. People have the Right to Chose and Women to Chose their Family Planning...

It's sad to see Left Hypocrisy...about Family Planning and a "Woman's Right to Choose."

The Duggers have as much right to have as many children as they want as those who choose Family Planning for other reasons.

The hooplah over making the Duggars some kind of FREAKS falls right into the RWingers hands that we on the Left really aren't for Families that we chose to criticize families for their Own Choices.

Women should have right to Abortion, Family Planning and to Choose how many children they want to have. And that right extends to the Duggar Family (whether you approve of their religion or not) it's the Family's choice and if her husband and she agree to a larger family than that is HER and THEIR CHOICE.

How could Democrats go after these folks when we support RIGHT TO CHOOSE?

[Le Taz Hot]

63. ^This^

What part of "A woman's right to choose" aren't we gettin' here?

[liberalhistorian]

132. Yes, they do, indeed, I agree.

But what they do NOT have the right to do is to try to push that on everyone else and demand that everyone else believe the same as they do. Which is what the Duggars are doing and have done.

[smiley]

77. agreed

But I do find it puzzling they don't see this as going against God's will. Especially when some of the embryos will be aborted in order for it to be a success. Seems rather hypocritical considering their anti-abortion stance.

[Orangepeel]

96. Oh, please. Nobody is trying to take away her rights

Of course she has the legal right to try to have a child. Nobody is going to try to block her entrance to the fertility clinic, or get it shut down, or seriously advocate for laws that restrict her from doing what she wants with her body.

Criticizing the bad decisions of wannabe TV stars while simutaneously working to preserve a woman's legal right to control her own body is not hypocrisy.

[NuclearDem]

104. I fully support their right to choose.

The Duggars don't, except for themselves.

[tularetom]

109. First of all I don't think it really is HER choice

You can't seriously look at the two of them and believe she has much choice in the matter.

Secondly, if they want to have 50 kids and do it in anonymity, they should have at it.

But when they cash in on having a shitload of kids by making their own TV show and then come on a crap show like Today to brag on it, it is no longer "their" business. It's now in the public domain and it's a legitimate subject for discussion and debate and all opinions should be welcome.

[pstokely]

119. Gawd says it's not up to her husband, not her

[alp227]

134. There's a difference between disliking vs taking away somebody's choice.

Arguably, the Duggars' choice has crossed the line into harming the environment via overpopulation, if you wanna be that radical.

Do you not think responsibility comes with freedom? There's the typical fallacy of claiming that freedom = freedom from criticism, the same line of argument used by Duck Dynasty fans.

[AnalystInParadise]

145. I think the Duggars and their 19 kids

are not going to break the world as much as the 1.3 BILLION people in India or the 1.2 BILLION people in China........Call me crazy, but I think their environmental footprint in the grand scheme of things is not the problem here.

[JI7]

204. that's strange, you are comparing one family to an entire nation's populations

and most of the individuals don't use up as many resources. pollution in those nations are mostly due to things like factories and the world uses those.

but still, the issue here is that the Duggars are public figures. they have a tv show. they try to push laws to BAN CHOICE.

people on here are not pushing for a law to ban choice. nobody is saying she should legally be prevented from doing what she wants.

it's the duggars who do that.

[wickerwoman]

142. The four oldest daughters are raising all those kids.

Michelle off-loads each of them at 6 months to a "buddy" who feeds, dresses, changes diapers, disciplines and educates them and who does not attend school themselves.

What about the older girls rights to choose whether or not they want to raise 3-4 kids each before they hit 20? What about their right to an education that will allow them to do anything with their life besides get married and raise more kids?

And, as has already been said on this thread, the right to choose is not the same as the right not to be criticised for your choice.

[littlemissmartypants]

223. Thank you. nt

[Feral Child]

153. Nobody has suggested

limiting her in any way.

We do, however, reserve the right to think she's a Fundy sub-wit for making choices that endanger the very fetuses she lusts after.

We can also judge the Duggars for being vain, fame-seeking hype-addicts by parading their fecundity, as if there really was some sort of honor in conceiving more children than one can possibly care for.

No one has "gone after" these paid-performers, we merely laugh at them for their vanity and conceit.



It's a matter of perspective, KoKo. She has a right to be a very public asshole about her religion, we have the right to ridicule her for her need for attention.

[treestar]

166. Nobody is advocating it being against the law

they are simply giving an opinion on having such a large family.

Frankly the reason I think it's wrong is those kids cannot possibly get the attention they need from each parent.

[snooper2]

176. Sure, they can have as many kids as they want, go for 50! The intertubes still have the right

to laugh at the quivernuts LOL...


Save JINGER!

[Daemonaquila]

178. Ah, more outrage for the sake of outrage.

I support the right to choose. I don't support crack-brained political and religious activists who use their reproductive status as the basis for a reality TV show that earns them large amounts of money and gives them an unprecedented audience for their bizarre, oppressive religious views which, by the by, include taking away other women's right to choose.

SHE made her ridiculous reproductive beliefs and habits fair game by issuing press releases and trying to gain the most notoriety she can. That's no longer her right to choose that's at issue, but her politics - and that makes her fair game for any comments about her politics, religion, activism, and the stupid personal choices that are driven by them.

[undeterred]

199. Exactly

The right for a woman to make her own choices regarding contraception and childbirth is the core of the pro-choice position.

A woman can choose to have 20 children or 20 abortions. ITS HER CHOICE.

[Arugula Latte]

231. This is a bullshit argument. We're NOT STOPPING HER.

We're not passing legislation saying that people can't have more than X number of kids (unlike the anti-choicers, who are actively preventing women from getting abortions). We are free to criticize her choices. This freakshow family has put themselves out there to be public figures. With fame comes criticism. If they don't like it they can reclaim their anonymity.

[Jenoch]

61. I uswd to work with a woman

who delivered a full-term, healthy daughter, at age 46. (They were not trying to consieve.)

[JI7]

64. does the fact that Michelle Duggar has already had 19 kids and i think 1 and maybe

other miscarriage make it less likely than a woman who hasn't had that many kids by that age ?

[Jenoch]

67. Make what less likely?

I was not commenting on the Duggars. This thread just reminded me of the lady I knew. I think she had six kids. At the time I thought it was irresponsible of the couple for her to get pregnant at that age. Sadly, their eldest daughter died of cancer a couple of years ago at 43 leaving a husband and three children behind.

[JI7]

70. less likely to be able to get pregnant

[pstokely]

120. but how many kids did they have?

I assume they weren't serial fundy breeders like the Duggars

[Packerowner740]

210. My aunt is one year older than I am

My grandmother was mid 50s when she gave birth. Of course my aunt was an accident.

[LuvNewcastle]

65. These people are gross.

There's a good chance there will be something seriously wrong with that child, whether it's retardation or some birth defect. She probably doesn't really care about the child, though. She's just spitting out another one to serve her twisted religious/political agenda. I really hope she isn't able to conceive. This is irresponsible as hell in a world where there's 7 billion people already.

[KoKo]

71. No...they are the living example of the "RIGHT TO CHOOSE" Family Size.

And, no one on the Left should be going after them. It makes us look like hypocritical fools if we deny the Duggars the "Right To Choose" their own family planning.

That is what is "Gross" that some posters on a Democratic Website would have people deny them the choices we fight for on on the Left.

It's her body and it's their right to CHOOSE their FAMILY SIZE.

What do you want? Her to be sent off to Prison for wanting another child? Would you support her dragged out of her home away from her family to be sent to Prison for her and her husband's CHOICE?

Do you have any evidence that she is being kept captive to "brood" children? Does her husband beat her and lock her in rooms just to impregnate her?

If not then ....let these people alone. The RW uses them to get us all in a tizzy because they are ferreting out any hint of hypocrisy on our side. This only gives them fuel for their "CRAZY."

Let it GO!

[LuvNewcastle]

85. Good God, KoKo!

I never said anything about anyone going to prison or being held captive. You just exaggerated everything I said beyond recognition.

The Duggars chose to have a tv show about their family and they chose to announce that they're looking for a way to have a 20th child. They wanted attention and they're getting it.

Considering that they decided to become public figures, I have the right to say what I think about what they're doing. Sure, they have the right to have as many kids as they like, but I also have the right to criticize their choice. It would be a different story if these were people who kept to themselves, but the Duggars chose to put their lives out there for the world to see.

I think their choice is irresponsible on several levels and I loathe their religious and political philosophies. I'm merely giving my opinion about them, not desiring them to be thrown in prison or anything like that! Giving opinions is what we do on DU, and I can't figure out why it would shock anybody that someone is making a comment here.

[Katashi_itto]

92. ...wow.

[liberalhistorian]

137. Wow! Hyperbolic

hyperventilating much? Where did anyone here say anything remotely like what you're suggesting and exaggerating? I believe the point has been made over and over again that it's not that anyone cares about how many children they've had or what they do, it's that THEY ARE THE ONES who feel they have the right to MAKE THOSE CHOICES FOR EVERYONE ELSE. THAT is the problem. It may be right for them and what they want to do and that's fine and dandy, that's their right. But they want to take that same right AWAY from others, they do NOT want to leave OTHERS alone in the same way you're demanding that THEY be left alone. And THAT is what everyone is having a problem with.

[Sheldon Cooper]

171. Hahahaha!!

Dragged off to prison? What a ridiculous extrapolation. Thank you for the laugh.

[Daemonaquila]

182. They're the living example of rethuglican fundies who'll do anything for more media.

Her "right to choose" is besides the point. If she wasn't using her birth canal as a pulpit to preach for the oppression of other women's choice and the overthrow of democracy in favor of christian rule in America, she wouldn't be a target. But since she's doing exactly that, she's going to get all the mocking she deserves. She, and the delicacy over ripping her a new one, are a joke.

[SummerSnow]

66. ...

[LuvNewcastle]

68. OMG!

[NuclearDem]

72. If that's what they want to do, then I wish them luck.

Even though given the state of resources and overpopulation, twenty kids is just plain irresponsible.

[The2ndWheel]

79. Is that shaming in some way?

Seems to be quite a bit that could fall under the given state of resources and overpopulation. We can't make people stop having kids yet, so there's not much reason to judge their choices, regardless of why they make them.

[chrisa]

73. They're also probably millionaires. I'm sure they can support their 20 kids, plus 1000 more.

They also probably have like 50 nannies.

[jmowreader]

84. The older kids raise the younger ones

[chrisa]

86. That's what they say, but I bet it's bs.

I get that they're trying to go for the "traditional family" arc, and maybe they started that way, but I bet they're highly pampered now.

[pstokely]

87. the older daughters raise the younger ones

nt

[Gormy Cuss]

74. I don't understand being both quiverfull and seeking fertility treatments.

If the reason for not using birth control is to accept all the babies sent your way by God, wouldn't the fact that you're no longer having successful pregnancies be a sign from God too?

[MADem]

76. She can do what she wants.

If she were my relative, though, I'd encourage her to see a different type of doctor entirely.

I can't help but wonder if it's all about those television ratings. No fun when they all grow up and get the hell outta that overcrowded house.

If they want to have more kids, they can always become foster parents. There are lots of children who need a stable home.

[seveneyes]

78. As long as they can afford it on their own

No reason for society to pay for such gluttony.

[steve2470]

80. isn't there a significant risk to her life if she has a 20th child ?

I think if I were the "fertility doctor", I'd err on the side of caution.

[LuvNewcastle]

90. I do know that the older a woman is when she gets pregnant,

the chances that the baby will have Down's Syndrome, autism, or birth defects increase greatly. I've never heard that it matters as much how many kids a woman has; it's mostly about the woman's age. In Mrs. Duggar's case, this could very likely be a risky pregnancy. I think that a woman her age who goes out of her way to get pregnant after she's had so many children has some mental issues. She needs counseling a hell of a lot more than she needs a baby.

[hamsterjill]

197. Absolutely!

And I would add that most obstetricians would be advising their patients of this important information, too.

There are also (and this is never mentioned, of course) physical complications for women who have given birth so many times such as a prolapsed bladder, etc.

[pstokely]

198. I think she's possibly addicted to pregnancy & labor, they're also serial fundy breeders

I'm sure they'll get plenty of grandchildren

[Dorian Gray]

81. I guess they're not just leaving it up to God.

[Lunacee_2013]

82. I thought the Duggars were against this kind of stuff.

Didn't Mrs. Duggar stop taking the b.c. pill because she claimed it caused her to miscarry during her first pregnancy? And I don't see how any couple could give this many kids the one-on-one personal time they each need, even if some of their kids are full grown adults. I don't want the government to intervene or anything, I just think this is a bad idea.

[meadowlark5]

83. Whatever happened to "God's will"?

She's gotten pregnant with God's blessing 19 times without any medical intervention. Now she can't. Shouldn't they take that as a sign from God that he thinks she's done? I would hope any reputable fertility doctor would advise her against it. 47 and pregnant 19 times? Not exactly an exemplary candidate. Why risk her health and maybe even life just to have that perfect number of 20?

[alp227]

136. Picking and choosing whatever is convenient for their agenda, it seems. nt

[jmowreader]

88. Pregnancy is going to kill her

She's almost fifty years old and her reproductive system has been subjected to at least 20 pregnancies that I know of - the miscarriage she credited to God sending her a message, and the nineteen kids she has. Her body will eventually just say, "enough." Sadly, it does that by dying.

[meadowlark5]

187. I agree

Even though they have that buddy system set up where the older children take care of the younger, they need their mother to manage it all. If she got pregnant on her own that's one thing. They like having babies. But to go above and beyond to force another pregnancy is irresponsible behavior when you have that many dependent children already. Probably her greatest threats at this age and that many pregnancies is hemorrhage or pre-eclampsia. Both of which could kill her. Her body has been taxed far beyond the average woman to force another pregnancy.

[Jenoch]

89. My great-grandmother had 13 children,

11 of them survived, 2 were stillborn. I am glad there was not a group, like most of those posting here, who judged her harshly for the decisions on family planning that she and my great-grandfather made all those years ago.

That large family is why I only know just a few of my second coisins.

My great-grandmother was only 5' tall, but she was a tough lady. I wish I had known her. My great-grandfather died in 1932 from an ingrown toenail. My great-grandmother kept the farm going during The Depression with the help of her sons.

[JI7]

99. they judge others and they put themselves on TV and preach this shit , they aren't some private

family that wants to stay away from the cameras .

[Jenoch]

100. The Duggers have zero impact on me or my family.

I don't give a crap what they do. It does seem they are able to afford their many children, even before they became the focus of 'reality' tekevision.

I do not think it wise for Mrs. Duggar to attemp another pregnancy, so many things can go wrong for her and the baby at her age.

[JI7]

102. they support right wing politicians and campaign for them and push anti choice laws

[pstokely]

107. she's trying to go against gawd's will for another gift from gawd

nt

[Mz Pip]

115. I had a high school friend

Her mom was 23 out of 24. This had to have been in the early part of the 20th century. Devout Polish Catholics, her grandparents were.

[treestar]

167. In that day and age?

Decisions on family planning?

[Jenoch]

169. Why not?

[treestar]

179. They did have ways

But not as effective. I guess the concept family planning sounds post 60s to me.

In the baby boomer era family planning seems to have been have a house full.

People back then would seem to be admired for a huge family. Anyone judging that negatively from today would be ignorant

[RebelOne]

196. An ex-boyfriend of mine told me that his grandmother had 21 kids. n/t

[Zambero]

95. Planned Unplanned Parenthood

Bottom line: Getting to that magic 20th would likely add another 2-3 years to the Duggars' "reality" show.

[catbyte]

98. Awesome. Destroying the planet. Or do they think they're hastening The End Times?

I think having 20 kids is deplorable , irresponsible, and selfish.

[AnalystInParadise]

146. Here is a list of 116 countries doing more to destroy the planet than one family

in the American Midwest..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate

[catbyte]

172. Yeah, just becasue somebody else is doing it absolves us all of any responsibility whatsoever.

Insert disgusted eye roll here.

[AnalystInParadise]

173. Since the U.S.

is below replacement level fertility.........well I'll let you do the math on that.

[catbyte]

174. So you think that the United States will be immune to a worldwide ecological collapse? Yeah, right.

Have a nice day.

[Daemonaquila]

183. That's GOOD news, and we need to encourage MORE population shrinkage.

Michelle Duggar isn't just helping destroy the planet by having 19+ kids, but by spreading her idiotic religious and political message that encourages others to do the same. Just what we need - more drooling, homeschooled TEAliban nutjobs denying climate change, fighting for christian rule, and insisting that science is just another belief system that's subject to their crack-brained preferences.

[JVS]

222. Arkansas is not the midwest!

[Mosby]

108. who are the duggers?

If they want more kids why don't they adopt?

[JI7]

113. i think it's about being pregnant more than just having the kid afterwards

[MrScorpio]

110. If a "Uterus Hall of Fame" ever gets built, we all know who'll be the first inductee nt

[Raine]

112. she didn't go there for fertility treatments she went there to see if she was physically healthy

enough to carry a baby IF she became pregnant and to find out if she had started menopause.

[pstokely]

121. what message will they get from Gawd if "he" does not give them another "gift"?

nt

[laundry_queen]

140. Yeah, I don't think anyone here actually saw the show

I watched it tonight, just because of what I had heard...and yeah, they didn't say anything about starting fertility treatments or anything. It was mostly a check up and seeing if she was entering menopause. They seemed happy either way.

[Mz Pip]

114. She's entitled to make her choices

And I am entitled to think she's batshit insane. It's a uterus, not a clown car.

[pstokely]

122. but is it really her choice?

the bible says wives must submit gracefully to their husbands

[AnalystInParadise]

147. Do you have proof

that she is chained up like Michael Vick's femalee pit bulls for breeding?

If so you could probably make a lot of money.

For the record, I don't approve of the Duggars brand of insanity, it makes the rest of us religious people look nuts by association. HOWEVER, I support this family's right to have as many children as they want and will hostile confront anyone who attempts to stifle that choice by intimidation, mockery or other forms of hostile persuasion.

Here's a tip: If you support Planned Parenthood and woman's choice, you look like a freaking hypocritical jackass when you condemn someone for engaging in the exercise of that choice.

[wickerwoman]

224. The Duggars follow Bill Gothard's teachings

which include women "keeping sweet" - never arguing with or contradicting their husbands, never raising their voices, dressing in a particular way, keeping their hair in a particular way... it's basically a cult complete with reeducation camps for troubled teens who need help with their rebellious spirits. The oldest Duggar girl has been sent a number of times and so has the fourth son who is very likely gay. The reeducation camp for boys is basically a kind a boot camp/suvivalist skills course teaching them to be Soldiers for God. The girls sit around being slut shamed until they "submit" and shut up.

[alp227]

126. the bottom line is, RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING nt

[moriah]

151. It's their choice, but I thought Quiverfull beliefs were against fertility treatments. n/t

[get the red out]

154. Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Keep that gravy train rollin'.......

[Marrah_G]

161. I don't care what they do

Lots of people in the country do things I think are fucked up....not my business.

[onecaliberal]

180. Are you effing kidding me?

but, but, but.... If she needs help getting pregnant doesn't that go against God? if God wanted her to have a 20th kid, she wouldn't need a fertility doctor.

When will someone tell her she is too old?

[Sheldon Cooper]

184. Hmmmm.

I assume that she and Jim Bob are having regular relations, because of course it's the wife's duty to submit, and for all we know she likes it anyway.

And, I also assume that they are not using any form of birth control, because that would be against their beliefs.

So, is it then safe to assume that if the good lord had wanted them to reproduce again, they'd have done so by now? Why the need to see a doctor? What are they going to do if the doctor tells them not to have any more children? Stop having sex? Get sterilized?

[onecaliberal]

188. Yes, of course

They should immediately stop having sex. Procreation is the only reason they do it you know.

[Xyzse]

185. Up to them. I don't think it is healthy, but it is their life.

It is amazing that they can afford that many.

I am mostly curious about their finances.

[Orsino]

189. I, for one, am eagerly waiting to welcome little Round Number.

Or if it's a boy, little Fox Slams Liberals.

[hamsterjill]

191. So...

Dear Michelle,

How many will ever be enough? You have stated that "as many as God is willing to give us", but your decision to seek a fertility treatment to have another child isn't exactly God working a miracle. It's you making a choice to use science to get what you want, and keep an interest in your television show. Ratings are, after all, what it's all about.

And so when you have number 20, will that be enough? Or will you want another one? Will you then seek to have number 21?

How many will ever be enough for you?

Signed,

An American Citizen Who Only Knows Who You Are and What You Do Because YOU Choose to Make Your Life a Public Venue

[liberal_at_heart]

193. DU does not know how to have a mature discussion about choice so I'm not even going to bother

with this thread. It's getting deleted.

[geardaddy]

194. I find it interesting that she keeps referring to getting pregnant

as "catching a baby".

[PumpkinAle]

195. God is telling them that their quiver is full

All these children are is just pawns in the game of sending out arrows to spread the Gospel and "Christian" values.

[randys1]

201. These are drastically immature and ignorant people

Not much else to say than that

[joeybee12]

203. I knew this would be a good thread!

[notadmblnd]

208. So they've gone from saying god wants us to have all these kids, to playing god themselves?

[vankuria]

213. Why can't these folks be happy

and satisfied with what they already have? Whether they are seeing the fertility Dr. to inquire about the possibility of another pregnancy or for actual fertility treatments, you'd think they'd find blessings in all the children they currently have, not to mention the grandkids. I'd say God has been very good to them, considering all the folks who want children and can't have them or parents of children with disabilities.

I have a feeling this is Mr. Duggar's decision, as Mrs. Duggar has a very passive role in the family and defers to her husband for everything. While this is their lives and they can make whatever crazy, outrageous decision they want, they put themselves in the public domain by letting themselves be filmed for their reality TV show and we are free to comment.

[Freddie]

214. Unlikely she can get pregnant again at her age

Unless she does IVF with donor eggs; seems like she's not interested in that.
A woman's eggs are like a carton of milk-- they are stamped with an expiration date, and no amount of healthy eating, exercise, etc. can change that date. Normally her eggs start expiring in her late 30s and are pretty much done well before 45. Sometimes "expiring" eggs result in birth defects or miscarriages, but usually they simply don't fertilize. And a woman can still have regular periods and ovulate for years after her eggs have expired.

[MisterP]

215. "must be like the tide at Omaha Beach"

[littlemissmartypants]

218. Who said

Repetition breeds insanity?

[KamaAina]

225. Best line from FB: "It's a uterus, not a clown car."

[get the red out]

229. Love that one

She deserves every bit of it for wanting to take away the rights of other women.

Note to the politically correct; criticism and mocking remove no one's rights. No one here is preventing her from doing anything.

[Arugula Latte]

230. Why don't they just accept their god's will?

Funny how they think that their god tells them all sorts of crap (like who their daughters should be "courted by&quot but when their deity gives them a message loud and clear like "Hey, Michelle, stop this shit or you're gonna die" and they don't like the message they take extreme measures.

Yeah, yeah, they are allowed to do whatever they want. I'm not stopping them ... Pointing out their hypocrisy and being critical of them is not being "anti-choice" -- I'm not in their bedroom waving signs that say: "Get the fuck off of her, Jim Bob!"