General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDefense Department Refuses to Tell Senate Which Groups We’re At War With
The Senates Committee on Foreign Relations held a hearing today on renewing the Authorization for the Use of Force (AUMF) in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Senators repeatedly asked representatives from the Department of Defense which groups we are at war with. And the DOD refused to answer.
As the ACLUs deputy legal director and director of the ACLUs Center for Democracy (Jameel Jaffer) tweets:
Senate: Which groups are we at war with? Admin: Thats classified. http://t.co/olW6B6Wy35
Jameel Jaffer (@JameelJaffer) May 21, 2014
In response, people tweeted how Orwellian this is:
@JameelJaffer @trevortimm Either Oceania or Eastasia, I think.
Steven Bellovin (@SteveBellovin) May 21, 2014
@JameelJaffer @ggreenwald We have always been at war with [classified].
Jay Schiavone (@jaytingle) May 21, 2014
@JameelJaffer: Senate: Which groups are we at war with? Admin: Thats classified
Prob b/c we supportAl Qaeda even as we fight them.
Anthony Bisotti (@drbisotti) May 21, 2014
@JameelJaffer dont ask who, or why. Its your job to Clap Louder!
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/defense-department-refuses-tell-senate-groups-war.html
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Well, the people being bombed know they're the enemy.
Keeping it from the People's representatives is meant to keep the American People in the dark.
Who knows how that mob will act?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The Administration wants people to think we're at war, so they can continue eroding our civil liberties using the tried-and-true "in time of war" excuse.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)not...
Never mind.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Speaking before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the administration officialsState Department Deputy Legal Adviser Mary McLeod and Defense Department General Counsel Stephen Prestondeclared that the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) was not required for any of the drone attacks, troop deployments and other war operations carried out by the Obama administration.
For more than a decade, the AUMF has been a catch-all justification for all the illegal and unconstitutional activities of the Bush and Obama administrationsmilitary invasions, indefinite detention (including at Guantanamo Bay), torture and drone assassination. Congress is currently considering revising or ending the AUMF as part of an effort to shift these operations onto a more permanent foundation.
A report in Rolling Stone on the hearings noted: When asked by Senator Tim Kaine (D-Virginia) what could [the president] not do without the AUMF, Preston didnt have an immediate answer. Kaine then asked if the US could continue to hold detainees at Guantanamo Bay if the AUMF were repealed. Preston dodged; McLeod added that the US can continue to detain prisoners as long as were in an armed conflict with Al Qaeda.
I think it would be fair to say that with or without an AUMF, to the extent that it grants authority for use of military force against al Qaeda, and the Taliban, and associated forces in which were in armed conflict
the president does have constitutional authority to act, said Preston.
Asked whether the executive could unilaterally attack any country that it declares is harboring terrorists, without Congressional approval, McLeod replied, We would have to think about whether individuals in that state or in that government of that state actually posed an imminent threat. That is to say, the executive would have an internal deliberation and decide on whether to wage war based on its definition of imminent.
McLeod added that in the administrations view it had the authority to wage war against Syria without Congressional authority based on the spurious allegations of chemical weapons use (in an internal civil conflict) last year. In the Syrian civil war, it was the United States, and not the Syrian government, that was directly allied with Al Qaeda and its associated forces.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/22/aumf-m22.html
A Baffling Hearing on Endless War
John Knefel
May 21, 2014 3:52 PM ET
The Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), passed by Congress in the days following the attacks of September 11th, 2001, is a 60-word resolution granting the president the authority to use force against the "nations, organizations, or persons" who carried out those attacks, or nations that harbored such groups. It has served as the underlying legal rationale for nearly every military and intelligence operation by the U.S. for more than a decade; one journalist has called it "the most dangerous sentence in U.S. history." Rep. Adam Schiff (D-California) is reportedly preparing to introduce a measure to force the AUMF's expiration. And at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing today, two top executive branch officials top Pentagon lawyer Stephen Preston and Mary McLeod, a high-ranking State Department legal advisor struggled to justify the law's continued usefulness.
Much of the hearing was a thick tangle of legalese, leading members of the committee to express their frustration with the lack of clear answers. Ranking Senator Bob Corker (R-Tennessee) called the hearing a "bizarre discussion" and repeatedly criticized the two witnesses for their confusing responses, at one point calling the hearing "not particularly gratifying."
What happens to justice in a perpetual war? Read our story and find out
The witnesses indicated that the Obama Administration believes it has the authority to take military action against "imminent threats" under the president's inherent self-defense authority, and appeared to minimize the role of Congress in determining where and when the president can use military force. When asked by Senator Tim Kaine (D-Virginia) "what could [the president] not do without the AUMF," Preston didn't have an immediate answer. Kaine then asked if the U.S. could continue to hold detainees at Guantanamo Bay if the AUMF were repealed. Preston dodged; McLeod added that the U.S. can continue to detain prisoners "as long as we're in an armed conflict with Al Qaeda."
While Preston said that he was "not going to tell you there are not differences" between the AUMF and the president's constitutional authority to protect the country, both witnesses struggled to clearly distinguish exactly what those differences might be. Preston wouldn't discuss the terrorist groups the administration currently considers itself at war with, saying "that would have to take place in a classified setting.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/a-baffling-hearing-on-endless-war-20140521#ixzz32TIlrB00
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)without a formal declaration of war.
They want their "war footing", and all the Constitutional exceptions that come with it, without actually going to the trouble of declaring war.
That pretty much guts entire portions of the Constitution.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)Governments don't declare war anymore. This is not a uniquely American phenomenon.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I don't really care if this problem is uniquely American or not. Our country was founded on the solid belief that war should not be waged on the decision of the Executive, and instead could only be declared by Congress.
None of the military actions in which we presently are engaged are in any way necessary for the safety and security of the United States. Nobody in Yemen, Pakistan or any of the 49 African nations in which we are operating present any existential threat to our country. We wage war for profit, and no matter how much lipstick is smeared on that pig it will never be pretty.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)I agree with you that congress should hold the authority to use military force, except in limited cases of imminent national emergency, but that pieces of paper saying "I declare war on thee" are anachronistic and frankly I'm glad they are. It gives the impression that wars are somehow "civilized" so long as you declare them. There's nothing any more civilized about a declared war than an undeclared war, people die in both.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)to third world nations that can't harm us, and to stop accepting hair-splitting over "declared" vs. "undeclared" war as somehow justifying any of it.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)Every time I hear someone like Ron Paul talk about how the Iraq War isn't legitimate because there was no formal declaration of war I want to pull my hair out. The Iraq War isn't legitimate because the Bush administration fabricated evidence and lied to the American people about the rationale for war and thousands of people died needlessly as a result (not to mention trillions of dollars down the toilet). Congress' lack of a formal "I declare war on thee Saddam Hussein", especially when they passed a resolution authorizing military force, is the least of that conflict's legitimacy problems.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)However, taking the decision to go to war out of the hands of Congress and giving it to the Executive to use at its pleasure is problematic. Those who crafted the Constitution knew full well the depredations of unchecked military power in the hands of a monarch, or in our case, a Unitary Executive.
You seem to prefer to restrict your criticisms of wars of choice to the Bush Administration, and indeed that Administration was spectacularly foul, but allowing the current (or any) Administration to engaged in sustained war-making without a formal declaration by Congress is unhealthy for the nation. States of war, even imaginary ones like we have now, are notoriously damaging to civil liberties and public coffers.
Much like the late Roman Republic, we are using foreign wars as money-making schemes for certain favored interests. Things didn't turn out so well for Rome, and I suspect they won't turn out well for us either.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)But again, formal declarations of war are not in and of themselves a check on military power.
The 2001 AUMF basically said that the President is allowed to use war powers against "terrorism" anywhere in the world for an indefinite period of time.
How about instead if they had crafted a resolution that said the President is authorized to use war powers ONLY against Osama Bin Laden and his subordinates, ONLY within the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and ONLY for a period of one year at which point congress will review and re-authorize if necessary.
If congress had simply asserted that kind of authority, I guarantee you we wouldn't still be doing god knows what Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)However, having the requirement that the Legislative branch control the decision to go to war does limit what the Executive can do with the armed forces.
The AUMF does not grant blanket authority to attack "terrorism":
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/world-report/2014/05/21/schiff-amendment-rightly-looks-to-sunset-aumf-law
Indeed, we're now using force against entities that are entirely secret. If the Administration cannot demonstrate that these secret, classified entities are linked to 9/11 then the AUMF does not allow them.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)You're right that my characterization was hyperbole, but as you point out it says the President can use force against "those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001".
The key factor here is that the President gets to determine who was involved in 9/11 and thus who we get to use force against, not congress. An authorization for use of military force DID NOT need to give the President that authority. At the time of the AUMF we knew that Osama Bin Laden and his subordinates were responsible for 9/11. The AUMF could have read "the President is authorized to use force against Osama Bin Laden and the forces directly under his command". And now that those people are all long dead, the mission would be accomplished and we'd be out of there.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,320 posts)She claimed that only the Senate had the power to declare war.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)why else are they allowing DOD got gt away with it?
Unless.....there's been a silent coup or something.....
nahhhhh...that can't be it.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)The MIC rolls along killing everything in it's path, including the truth.
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)It's disgusting and the country is sick of it, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it without dismantling the MIC. Of course, if we do that, we'll know exactly who they're at war with. They're at war with us, and they have been for a long time. Until someone comes along who says he's willing to take down the MIC and put this country back in the hands of the people, I will take American politics with a grain of salt. Everything else they discuss is trivial window dressing. Taking down the MIC would be one of the hardest things any nation has ever done, but it must be done if we want to live as a free people, in America and the rest of the world as well.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)senatorial oversight?