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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Thu May 22, 2014, 10:58 AM May 2014

Defense Department Refuses to Tell Senate Which Groups We’re At War With

The Senate’s Committee on Foreign Relations held a hearing today on renewing the Authorization for the Use of Force (AUMF) in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Senators repeatedly asked representatives from the Department of Defense which groups we are at war with. And the DOD refused to answer.

As the ACLU’s deputy legal director and director of the ACLU’s Center for Democracy (Jameel Jaffer) tweets:

Senate: Which groups are we at war with? Admin: That’s classified. http://t.co/olW6B6Wy35

— Jameel Jaffer (@JameelJaffer) May 21, 2014

In response, people tweeted how Orwellian this is:

@JameelJaffer @trevortimm Either Oceania or Eastasia, I think.

— Steven Bellovin (@SteveBellovin) May 21, 2014

@JameelJaffer @ggreenwald “We have always been at war with [classified].”

— Jay Schiavone (@jaytingle) May 21, 2014

“@JameelJaffer: Senate: Which groups are we at war with? Admin: That’s classified…” Prob b/c we supportAl Qaeda even as we ‘fight’ them.

— Anthony Bisotti (@drbisotti) May 21, 2014

@JameelJaffer don’t ask who, or why. It’s your job to Clap Louder!


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/defense-department-refuses-tell-senate-groups-war.html

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Defense Department Refuses to Tell Senate Which Groups We’re At War With (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter May 2014 OP
''That's classified.'' Octafish May 2014 #1
Congress has not declared war, so we are not at war with anybody. Maedhros May 2014 #2
No, no. That's Bush you're thinking of not ... FiveGoodMen May 2014 #3
A Baffling Hearing on Endless War Ichingcarpenter May 2014 #6
It is unacceptable for the Government to prosecute long-term military conflict Maedhros May 2014 #9
Then every military action on the planet since World War II has been unacceptable Hippo_Tron May 2014 #13
I agree: every military action on the planet since World War II has been unacceptable. Maedhros May 2014 #16
Nobody declared war in the Civil War, either... Hippo_Tron May 2014 #18
The important thing is to stop funding and using our bloated military to bring death and suffering Maedhros May 2014 #19
Then stop using that stupid talking point Hippo_Tron May 2014 #20
All true. Maedhros May 2014 #21
No, I don't like the current administration's indefinite wars either... Hippo_Tron May 2014 #22
Yes - formal declarations, in and of themselves, don't do a whole lot. Maedhros May 2014 #23
The AUMF as it was passed is VERY broad Hippo_Tron May 2014 #25
The AUMF is an atrocity that should never have been created. [n/t] Maedhros May 2014 #27
Congress declared war on 9.18.2001. It was in the papers. nt msanthrope May 2014 #12
Boy was my Civics teacher wrong. GeorgeGist May 2014 #4
"Prussia is not a state that has an army, but an army that has a state." Mirabeau Tierra_y_Libertad May 2014 #5
Obviously Congress supports this insanity dixiegrrrrl May 2014 #7
We are so through the looking glass. Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #8
kick woo me with science May 2014 #10
They didn't want to tell Congress the truth so they used the national security canard. Rex May 2014 #11
They play that card every time someone tries to hold them accountable for their actions. LuvNewcastle May 2014 #17
If they know they are safe from outright lying (Clapper) when not outright refusal to submit to Nuclear Unicorn May 2014 #14
We can't handle the truth. winter is coming May 2014 #15
Permanent War Party FTW bobduca May 2014 #24
kick. GoneFishin May 2014 #26
K&R Solly Mack May 2014 #28
kick woo me with science May 2014 #29
kick woo me with science May 2014 #30

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
1. ''That's classified.''
Thu May 22, 2014, 12:25 PM
May 2014

Well, the people being bombed know they're the enemy.

Keeping it from the People's representatives is meant to keep the American People in the dark.

Who knows how that mob will act?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
2. Congress has not declared war, so we are not at war with anybody.
Thu May 22, 2014, 12:30 PM
May 2014

The Administration wants people to think we're at war, so they can continue eroding our civil liberties using the tried-and-true "in time of war" excuse.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
6. A Baffling Hearing on Endless War
Thu May 22, 2014, 02:47 PM
May 2014

Speaking before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the administration officials—State Department Deputy Legal Adviser Mary McLeod and Defense Department General Counsel Stephen Preston—declared that the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) was not required for any of the drone attacks, troop deployments and other war operations carried out by the Obama administration.

For more than a decade, the AUMF has been a catch-all justification for all the illegal and unconstitutional activities of the Bush and Obama administrations—military invasions, indefinite detention (including at Guantanamo Bay), torture and drone assassination. Congress is currently considering revising or ending the AUMF as part of an effort to shift these operations onto a more permanent foundation.

A report in Rolling Stone on the hearings noted: “When asked by Senator Tim Kaine (D-Virginia) ‘what could [the president] not do without the AUMF,’ Preston didn’t have an immediate answer. Kaine then asked if the US could continue to hold detainees at Guantanamo Bay if the AUMF were repealed. Preston dodged; McLeod added that the US can continue to detain prisoners ‘as long as we’re in an armed conflict with Al Qaeda.’”
“I think it would be fair to say that with or without an AUMF, to the extent that it grants authority for use of military force against al Qaeda, and the Taliban, and associated forces in which we’re in armed conflict … the president does have constitutional authority to act,” said Preston.
Asked whether the executive could unilaterally attack any country that it declares is “harboring” terrorists, without Congressional approval, McLeod replied, “We would have to think about whether individuals in that state or in that government of that state actually posed an imminent threat.” That is to say, the executive would have an internal deliberation and decide on whether to wage war based on its definition of “imminent.”

McLeod added that in the administration’s view it had the authority to wage war against Syria without Congressional authority based on the spurious allegations of chemical weapons use (in an internal civil conflict) last year. In the Syrian civil war, it was the United States, and not the Syrian government, that was directly allied with Al Qaeda and its “associated forces.”


https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/22/aumf-m22.html


A Baffling Hearing on Endless War



John Knefel
May 21, 2014 3:52 PM ET
The Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), passed by Congress in the days following the attacks of September 11th, 2001, is a 60-word resolution granting the president the authority to use force against the "nations, organizations, or persons" who carried out those attacks, or nations that harbored such groups. It has served as the underlying legal rationale for nearly every military and intelligence operation by the U.S. for more than a decade; one journalist has called it "the most dangerous sentence in U.S. history." Rep. Adam Schiff (D-California) is reportedly preparing to introduce a measure to force the AUMF's expiration. And at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing today, two top executive branch officials – top Pentagon lawyer Stephen Preston and Mary McLeod, a high-ranking State Department legal advisor – struggled to justify the law's continued usefulness.

Much of the hearing was a thick tangle of legalese, leading members of the committee to express their frustration with the lack of clear answers. Ranking Senator Bob Corker (R-Tennessee) called the hearing a "bizarre discussion" and repeatedly criticized the two witnesses for their confusing responses, at one point calling the hearing "not particularly gratifying."

What happens to justice in a perpetual war? Read our story and find out

The witnesses indicated that the Obama Administration believes it has the authority to take military action against "imminent threats" under the president's inherent self-defense authority, and appeared to minimize the role of Congress in determining where and when the president can use military force. When asked by Senator Tim Kaine (D-Virginia) "what could [the president] not do without the AUMF," Preston didn't have an immediate answer. Kaine then asked if the U.S. could continue to hold detainees at Guantanamo Bay if the AUMF were repealed. Preston dodged; McLeod added that the U.S. can continue to detain prisoners "as long as we're in an armed conflict with Al Qaeda."

While Preston said that he was "not going to tell you there are not differences" between the AUMF and the president's constitutional authority to protect the country, both witnesses struggled to clearly distinguish exactly what those differences might be. Preston wouldn't discuss the terrorist groups the administration currently considers itself at war with, saying "that would have to take place in a classified setting.



Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/a-baffling-hearing-on-endless-war-20140521#ixzz32TIlrB00
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook




 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
9. It is unacceptable for the Government to prosecute long-term military conflict
Thu May 22, 2014, 03:12 PM
May 2014

without a formal declaration of war.

They want their "war footing", and all the Constitutional exceptions that come with it, without actually going to the trouble of declaring war.

That pretty much guts entire portions of the Constitution.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
13. Then every military action on the planet since World War II has been unacceptable
Thu May 22, 2014, 06:20 PM
May 2014

Governments don't declare war anymore. This is not a uniquely American phenomenon.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
16. I agree: every military action on the planet since World War II has been unacceptable.
Thu May 22, 2014, 06:44 PM
May 2014

I don't really care if this problem is uniquely American or not. Our country was founded on the solid belief that war should not be waged on the decision of the Executive, and instead could only be declared by Congress.

None of the military actions in which we presently are engaged are in any way necessary for the safety and security of the United States. Nobody in Yemen, Pakistan or any of the 49 African nations in which we are operating present any existential threat to our country. We wage war for profit, and no matter how much lipstick is smeared on that pig it will never be pretty.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
18. Nobody declared war in the Civil War, either...
Thu May 22, 2014, 07:47 PM
May 2014

I agree with you that congress should hold the authority to use military force, except in limited cases of imminent national emergency, but that pieces of paper saying "I declare war on thee" are anachronistic and frankly I'm glad they are. It gives the impression that wars are somehow "civilized" so long as you declare them. There's nothing any more civilized about a declared war than an undeclared war, people die in both.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
19. The important thing is to stop funding and using our bloated military to bring death and suffering
Thu May 22, 2014, 07:56 PM
May 2014

to third world nations that can't harm us, and to stop accepting hair-splitting over "declared" vs. "undeclared" war as somehow justifying any of it.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
20. Then stop using that stupid talking point
Thu May 22, 2014, 08:01 PM
May 2014

Every time I hear someone like Ron Paul talk about how the Iraq War isn't legitimate because there was no formal declaration of war I want to pull my hair out. The Iraq War isn't legitimate because the Bush administration fabricated evidence and lied to the American people about the rationale for war and thousands of people died needlessly as a result (not to mention trillions of dollars down the toilet). Congress' lack of a formal "I declare war on thee Saddam Hussein", especially when they passed a resolution authorizing military force, is the least of that conflict's legitimacy problems.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
21. All true.
Thu May 22, 2014, 08:53 PM
May 2014

However, taking the decision to go to war out of the hands of Congress and giving it to the Executive to use at its pleasure is problematic. Those who crafted the Constitution knew full well the depredations of unchecked military power in the hands of a monarch, or in our case, a Unitary Executive.

You seem to prefer to restrict your criticisms of wars of choice to the Bush Administration, and indeed that Administration was spectacularly foul, but allowing the current (or any) Administration to engaged in sustained war-making without a formal declaration by Congress is unhealthy for the nation. States of war, even imaginary ones like we have now, are notoriously damaging to civil liberties and public coffers.

Much like the late Roman Republic, we are using foreign wars as money-making schemes for certain favored interests. Things didn't turn out so well for Rome, and I suspect they won't turn out well for us either.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
22. No, I don't like the current administration's indefinite wars either...
Thu May 22, 2014, 09:05 PM
May 2014

But again, formal declarations of war are not in and of themselves a check on military power.

The 2001 AUMF basically said that the President is allowed to use war powers against "terrorism" anywhere in the world for an indefinite period of time.

How about instead if they had crafted a resolution that said the President is authorized to use war powers ONLY against Osama Bin Laden and his subordinates, ONLY within the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and ONLY for a period of one year at which point congress will review and re-authorize if necessary.

If congress had simply asserted that kind of authority, I guarantee you we wouldn't still be doing god knows what Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
23. Yes - formal declarations, in and of themselves, don't do a whole lot.
Thu May 22, 2014, 10:00 PM
May 2014

However, having the requirement that the Legislative branch control the decision to go to war does limit what the Executive can do with the armed forces.

The AUMF does not grant blanket authority to attack "terrorism":

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/world-report/2014/05/21/schiff-amendment-rightly-looks-to-sunset-aumf-law

The law itself gives the president the authority to “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.” In the past, this has been interpreted as a grant to go after al-Qaida, the Taliban and “associated forces” wherever they may be found, although military operations now seem to be focused on Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and sometimes Somalia.


Indeed, we're now using force against entities that are entirely secret. If the Administration cannot demonstrate that these secret, classified entities are linked to 9/11 then the AUMF does not allow them.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
25. The AUMF as it was passed is VERY broad
Thu May 22, 2014, 11:15 PM
May 2014

You're right that my characterization was hyperbole, but as you point out it says the President can use force against "those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001".

The key factor here is that the President gets to determine who was involved in 9/11 and thus who we get to use force against, not congress. An authorization for use of military force DID NOT need to give the President that authority. At the time of the AUMF we knew that Osama Bin Laden and his subordinates were responsible for 9/11. The AUMF could have read "the President is authorized to use force against Osama Bin Laden and the forces directly under his command". And now that those people are all long dead, the mission would be accomplished and we'd be out of there.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
7. Obviously Congress supports this insanity
Thu May 22, 2014, 03:08 PM
May 2014

why else are they allowing DOD got gt away with it?

Unless.....there's been a silent coup or something.....
nahhhhh...that can't be it.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
11. They didn't want to tell Congress the truth so they used the national security canard.
Thu May 22, 2014, 06:08 PM
May 2014

The MIC rolls along killing everything in it's path, including the truth.

LuvNewcastle

(16,844 posts)
17. They play that card every time someone tries to hold them accountable for their actions.
Thu May 22, 2014, 06:54 PM
May 2014

It's disgusting and the country is sick of it, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it without dismantling the MIC. Of course, if we do that, we'll know exactly who they're at war with. They're at war with us, and they have been for a long time. Until someone comes along who says he's willing to take down the MIC and put this country back in the hands of the people, I will take American politics with a grain of salt. Everything else they discuss is trivial window dressing. Taking down the MIC would be one of the hardest things any nation has ever done, but it must be done if we want to live as a free people, in America and the rest of the world as well.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
14. If they know they are safe from outright lying (Clapper) when not outright refusal to submit to
Thu May 22, 2014, 06:34 PM
May 2014

senatorial oversight?

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