The myth of the 'nice guy' and Elliot Rodger.

[Danger Mouse]

Women are so hard to understand, am I right, guys? You support them, give all of your time to them, you're there for them when they need you, and how do they thank you? They don't respond to your advances! They say they value your friendship too much. Bro, you've just been 'friend zoned.' Frustrating, isn't it?

And yet...what exactly were you expecting? Did you think that just because you didn't overtly treat a woman badly, you earned some sort of prize? Did you think that your good behavior entitled you to her devotion? Did you think you're somehow 'better' than all the 'jerks' she seems to want to be with? Did you really think you were some kind of knight in shining armor? I know I've been there. I've pined away for women who just weren't interested, thinking that if I were just nice enough of a guy, they'd respond to my advances. Then it became resentment. They just don't know what they want! They don't realize what they're missing! They only want guys who will treat them badly!

I didn't realize then what a jerk I was being. I honestly thought I was some kind of anti-chauvinist hero, a knight in shining armor who would rescue damsels from the big mean sexist dragon. The problem was that for all my being 'nice,' it wasn't grounded in true RESPECT. There was a condescending, patronizing element to it. The very idea that women need rescuing, that they need delivery at the hands of a man on a white horse, is at its core sexist and insulting. Yet many guys subscribe to this notion, and think that it makes them better somehow. They are gentlemen, they are kind and supportive, they are always there...until she says no. Then she becomes the enemy, she becomes the devil who put them in the 'friend zone.' Resentment brings forth the true colors of the 'nice guy,' showing him for what he truly is.

This brings me to Elliot Rodger, perpetrator of the drive-by shooting at UC Santa Barbara. Before the shootings he put out a video airing his grievances with women, the reason behind the shooting. He was such a nice guy, and they didn't want him, he said, so the sluts had it coming. Was he mentally ill? Of course he was. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at what triggered his homicidal rampage. What he was is the 'nice guy' taken to its logical, brutal conclusion.

Countless 'nice guys' are out there right now, trying to distance themselves from Rodger, trying to minimize him, trying to ignore him. Yet at the end of the day, the 'nice guy' sees women as objects just as much as the 'jerks,' as prizes to be won. At least the 'jerks' are open about their exploitation of women. 'Nice guys' hide it behind a smiling veneer, pretending they are something they truly aren't. Their resentment towards the women that reject them often manifests as open hostility. How many 'nice guys' are right now secretly rejoicing over what Rodger has done? These 'nice guys' are everywhere, and many (if not most) of them would classify themselves as liberal. On the surface they espouse feminist philosophy, decry sexism, and advocate respect for women. Maybe they believe they actually hold these views. I certainly thought I did. Yet at the end of the day, 'nice guys' don't think women can choose for themselves. They think that friendship has to come at a price. They expect sexual favors as payment for acting like a decent human being.

Here's a crazy idea, guys: act like a decent human being because you're a decent human being. Stop acting like an entitled little brat just because she doesn't want to be with you. If you really value a woman, respect her choices. If she's not interested in you, it's not because she's a 'slut' who only likes 'jerks,' it's because she's not interested in you. A platonic relationship with a woman can be deeply rewarding and meaningful without it being about earning a 'prize.' If you can't get beyond this, ask yourself, why were you in this friendship to begin with? Did you ever really respect her?

[Louisiana1976]

1. Could it be that they think they're "nice guys," but are really assholes?

[Danger Mouse]

4. that's part of it. it's more than that, though.

we live in a society that doesn't teach respect for women. we are raised on female objectification and domination and it is ingrained in our psyche.
the 'nice guy' thinks they are above that, but they aren't. think of the bigot who says 'my best friends are black!' the subtle racist who doesn't realize they are racist.
it's like that.

[Skittles]

6. being an asshole isn't necessarily a game-killer for us gals

being a creep CERTAINLY is

[awoke_in_2003]

25. So you're sayin I have a chance?...

Please don't kick my ass.

[Skittles]

26. I'VE HAD IT WITH MEN

*liked it too*

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. EGREGIOUS

Contacting 14 members of the Armchair Army to see if I can get THREE of them to give Skittles a mean and angry look.

Betting I can't.

By the way I won't be joining them.

[Skittles]

33. I WILL KICK ARMCHAIR ARMY ASS

YES INDEED

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. And that's why I ain't joinin' 'em. Instigate... sure. Stand with them? Nope. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

65. Skittles versus three Armchair Army members?

My money is on Skittles.

[IronLionZion]

42. I'VE HAD IT WITH WOMEN

*and it was so awesome!*

[NMDemDist2]

2. wow

it really does come down to motives doesn't it

thanks for this one, well done!

[hlthe2b]

3. Nice summation from a man that "gets it"...

One can only hope-- in this day and age-- that most do as well.

[treestar]

5. Yes, that attitude shows it up

A truly nice guy likes women. Doesn't expect there to be a formula to get them into bed. Each woman is an individual. There's no formula.

[Half-Century Man]

11. There is a secret to get women in bed.

Keep them running around all day, laughing , playing, and having fun. After 12 hours of this, send them to their room alone. I guarantee they will go to bed with an exhausted smile on their face.

[seabeyond]

29. i really do, always, enjoy your posts. nt

[nomorenomore08]

57. "Each woman is an individual. There's no formula."

A lesson that a lot of younger guys (and some older ones) could probably stand to learn. I had to learn it myself, to a certain extent.

[spooky3]

7. I think there is an additional factor for some of them.

What would most of them think of a woman who thought that simply being "nice" entitled her to the love of a man who she thought had a lot going for him?

If people want their pick of the best prospects, they have to be a best prospect themselves. This means more than simply being nice.

Another irony in this situation is that at least some of the women probably sensed when they were dealing with a guy with (by his own words) a "twisted" view of things. It was healthy of them not to be more than acquaintances with someone with his views and violent tendencies.

[Jamaal510]

8. As cliche

as it is, it sounds like it boils down to being yourself, learning from mistakes, and finding the right person at the right time. I think the lesson for the "nice guys" is to basically treat a woman they fancy like how they'd treat anyone else, and to be patient. That's what it sounds like, considering the fact that no one person is going to be everyone's slice of cake. Contrary to the popular notion, not even the so-called "bad boys" or "alpha males" can get every woman, and they face rejection many times. Even a guy such as myself (who is fairly quiet and shy) was able to build rapport while communicating with quite a few women I met online, though unfortunately none of them lived near me.

[Egnever]

9. Nice guys finish last

that is a cliche for a reason.

I was a nice guy and it got me no where. When I stopped putting women on a pedestal is when I started having real relationships.

I think you have the right idea Women dont want nice they want to be treated like a person.

[seabeyond]

30. ah. lookie. see. more of the story.

[Egnever]

36. cool a stalker

Little creepy though

[seabeyond]

38. right. a thread moments ago. you immediately derailing and dismissing. me discussing.

wasnt that the first time ever i have responded to your many many derailing and dismissive posts? pretty much ignored you

but then you feign a righteousness in the previous thread only to learn now....

you were one of those "nice" guys that got dumped on and learned your lesson.

you want to cal it stalking? fine. lol

piece of the puzzle slid in so nicely, though. and you not only handed us the pieces, you pointed to where they go.

[FreedRadical]

50. I saw that too.

So busted. Poor mister nice guy.

Give the lady her prize.

[1StrongBlackMan]

105. LOL ...

It's always interesting to watch someone proclaim "I get it", only to watch them prove themselves clueless.

The Sexism/Racism threads have such a way of revealing things here.

[nomorenomore08]

58. Being "nice" doesn't mean being a doormat, necessarily. It's not so black and white. n/t

[fishwax]

69. meh--being a nice guy works out fine, in my experience. Of course,

I don't equate being a nice guy with putting women(or men) on pedestals ...

[Danger Mouse]

10. Pretty much. Sadly a lot of guys don't get that...

....and here we are.

[tea and oranges]

12. Thanks Danger Mouse

That took some self-examination & courage. Much appreciated!

[JonLP24]

13. Everything you say is true

Your headline initially wanted me to say this as comment: The nice guy thing goes both ways, plenty of men will choose women that use them, disrespect them, etc over women for a variety of reasons like more attractive for instance.

Back in March, I met a woman I'd be very interested in dating and she seemed interested too but I'm the type that will never make any of the first moves ever which led me to only being in relationships with women blunt enough to do everything necessary to begin a relationship. That is another story, anyways she didn't wait around for me and had about 4 different relationships since I've known her. First one had a cartoon like arrogance and that relationship ended when he poured beer on her because he had to wait for her.

Next one, I actually never met the guy but he stole a lot of her belongings and never returned to his own apartment with his name on the lease. I really didn't understand the logic of that.

A third guy for some reason just didn't like me so was always an unnecessary asshole towards me but since I've always had her back, treated her like a human, was pretty much one of the only people she trusted told me I could always stay at her place anytime. I recall while I was asleep one morning he was talking non-stop shit to me while she was in the shower but the volume of his voice would rise and lower to the shower turning on and off which I found absolutely hysterical. That ended because she felt he was doing more harm than good.

The 4th was her ex who she broke up with shortly before she met me. He actually seems normal, dad & family loves him, has a full-time job but there are times where he uses incredibly insulting terms (I try to stick to logic, facts, etc in arguments rather than simply calling someone a "bitch" for instance) and he kicked in her door twice - like he has the right to do such a thing. Second time completely ruined her deadbolt lock. She wasn't home both times but he did it because he felt she was home, just didn't want to open the door.

Me, there are many instances where I'm too nice IOW passive but I handle things very uniquely from others. There are times where I can live with being disrespected because I can simply cut the person from my life. In situations where I need to put my foot down, I do. She is exactly the opposite. She is a firecracker w/ an extremely short fuse, I think while at first she would be interested in dating me she drifted away from that when she seen me be "too nice". The men she chooses, none of them are in any danger of being "too nice".

Like with what you say though - I don't hold any grudges or think anything less of. She is actually a great friend in a time and place where those are hard to find and that is something I actually prefer to keep that way. Besides the snapping off before getting a chance to explain myself isn't something I look for in an ideal mate.

[VWolf]

14. Yep, I've been there too.

Looking back at how I behaved, I can't believe how insensitive and self-centered I was.

That was over 20 years ago, in my high school / college days. I'd like to think I've evolved since then.

[951-Riverside]

15. Its all bullshit. It was never about women.

He just wanted to kill a bunch of people but knew doing that would make him look like a monster so he put out the sob story about not getting laid as cover ...and it worked.

The whole sob story that Chris Dorner put out worked pretty well too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. I think being a "monster" was the whole point....he was a very sick person....a schizophrenic

who had easy access to weapons. Aspergers and Schizophrenia do not make good bed fellows...consider the Narcissistic way he saw himself along with Delusions of Grandeur. He had no ability to understand no concept THAT other people feel much less what they feel. He is above them...he is a God...they are all scum to him....the fact that women didn't want him was the ONLY thing that didn't fit his narrative about himself! They confounded him....because IF he truly was a "man among men" a "god".....then women should be falling at his feet as they were also his inferiors.....Since they did not....they didn't recognize his "greatness" his superiority....THEY were the problem....and since they WON'T recognize it for some conspiratorial reasons (from hanging around those MRA's and HatePUA's or whateverdahfuck that shit was)...the entire species of women were conspiring together to keep the world from recognizing that he was all of their superiors. Classic god complex!

Thus...why he felt alone...when clearly he wasn't alone...was because he could not "feel" for people....after he realized he never would....the delusion becomes the reason for that is because I must not really BE one of them!

[Tom Ripley]

40. +1000 He would have found another convenient grievance for his murderous rage

[BlancheSplanchnik]

46. but women are such a convenient target for so many of them.

That's merely coincidental, though. As coincidental as all the scantily clad "hotties" held up everywhere you look, as goals (for all us other women) and prizes (for men).

Women make their weewees tingle. They gotta DO something about that! Get one for themselves.


They haven't learned this important lesson: how to deal with frustrated desires.

[Tom Ripley]

47. That is true

[BlancheSplanchnik]

112. thanks for reading me

there're enough guys here who just flip you off when you make a point.

Really appreciate you.

[GirlinContempt]

51. nonsense

First, you don't have any way to know that. Period.

Second, you're being incredibly dismissive of something that is clearly a contributing factor to violence. A system of male entitlement and female inferiority is a huge factor in the treatment of women, and violence is part of that. Claiming it was "just an excuse" and "any would do" skates over the fact that women are targeted by men for being women in SO MANY WAYS.

This nonsense also misses the point HUGELY, because the fact that you believe that blaming women MAKES HIM APPEAR LESS BAD OR MORE SYMPATHETIC, that should tell you it's a huge effing problem.

[seabeyond]

52. you believe that blaming women MAKES HIM APPEAR LESS BAD OR MORE SYMPATHETIC

that should tell you it's a huge effing problem.

excellent post. an excellent point.

[Tom Ripley]

75. Well, it is appropriate that you are addressing your heavily-capped astonishment at that poster...

rather than me, because I said no such thing.
Misogyny exists. Was he a misogynist? There is little doubt of that. Was he a misanthrope? There is little doubt of that.
Did he need an "excuse" to kill? He felt so. Was his "excuse" valid? Of course not. Would he have found another "reason" to kill?
Yes. Psychopaths are like that.

[seabeyond]

79. i think this was well said. regardless of what you said or not. i do not know that i really paid

any attention to what you were saying. my comment was not to you, cause my response really had nothing to do with you. i like what the poster said not in relations to you.

being incredibly dismissive of something that is clearly a contributing factor to violence. A system of male entitlement and female inferiority is a huge factor in the treatment of women, and violence is part of that. Claiming it was "just an excuse" and "any would do" skates over the fact that women are targeted by men for being women in SO MANY WAYS.

This nonsense also misses the point HUGELY, because the fact that you believe that blaming women MAKES HIM APPEAR LESS BAD OR MORE SYMPATHETIC, that should tell you it's a huge effing problem.

[Tom Ripley]

82. Except for the part where I never said...

I believe "that blaming women MAKES HIM APPEAR LESS BAD OR MORE SYMPATHETIC"

Yet, you repeat it.

Look, I know the old cliche "best make hay while the sun is shining", but I neither traffic in, nor live by, cliches.
Yours may be a different approach.

[GirlinContempt]

119. I may have replied

In the wrong place, I'll check when i'm not in my phone

[Tom Ripley]

74. No, I don't think that blaming women, Satan, the Jews, the government, the Illuminati, God...

or any other "rationale" used by psychopaths to justify their actions makes anyone appear less bad or more sympathetic. Do you think he killed his three developmentally disabled roommates because they were attracting more women? Do you think he hallucinated that they were women? No, you don't have any way to know that. Period.
This guy had disturbing levels of resentment years before his adolescent longings. His disturbed nature was fixed long before he became immersed in the objectification of women. Objectification, exploitation, and violence toward women do exist in this culture, and should be addressed. However, your desire to lay his actions at the door of these other agents is, in its way, a way of explaining, and to a degree, excusing his actions. Is that really what you want to do? Not me.

[Danger Mouse]

96. Exactly. We don't dismiss the motive when...

a man kills another man because of the color of his skin.
Why should it be any different if gender is the motive? Sad that so many men are unwilling to acknowledge that.

[Chemisse]

93. Maybe you're right.

That would explain why he looked like he was acting in the video he made - right down to the evil laugh. The whole thing looked bogus.

[Half-Century Man]

16. Another problem with the "Nice Guy" meme

Your perception of what constitutes a "Nice Guy" most likely doesn't exactly match someone else's perception of a "Nice Guy". To think otherwise is arrogant.
If you feel the need to cloak yourself in the mantle of a "Nice Guy", isn't that cloaking a deception? Rather than anger for no one recognizing your skill at role playing, how about recognizing the lack of need for role playing?

Just be yourself.

[truedelphi]

78. Women often go for the "bad boy" types when they' re younger.

I don't know if that stems from fear of intimacy, or what.

But by the time a "nice" guy is in his thirtes, some woman in her thirties will be far more willing to settle down with the nice guy type. Often, though, the woman might find out he has been taken by someone else.

[seabeyond]

81. not really. that goes along the lines of, .... all women are liars. no more true than

women want the bad guy.

what is the need to create these destructive myths about women?

[Darkhawk32]

17. As a supporter of equal rights for women, I don't expect anything from women.....

and I don't want them to expect anything from me. I've long since learned that both sexes as just as full of shit as the other.

[sendero]

20. Anyone....

.... who thinks the opposite gender is the source of their problems is a loser and an idiot.

[Darkhawk32]

48. Where did I say that? Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[OKNancy]

23. That's a real shame

I've been reading all this back and forth in the various threads and it is really makes me think that all people just aren't as nice as they used to be. It seems we have gotten meaner. Everyone is meaner.
Maybe it's my southern upbringing, but nice manners and kindness just don't seem too evident anymore.

Then again is it the internet? Are people in real life really much better behaved?
I know that in my real life I never hear the kinds of things I read on DU.

[Darkhawk32]

49. What's the shame about it? You equate not placing the opposite sex on a pedestal and

recognizing that both sexes have flaws to being mean?

I'm actually being the most honest here.

[nomorenomore08]

61. The hostility is unnecessary though, in context. Seems over the top.

[Darkhawk32]

64. The hostility is only your perception and your expectation of unwarranted and unearned praise.

At best, I'm totally indifferent, not hostile.

[nomorenomore08]

66. Fair enough. Honestly, I'm just scratching my head as to why you seem so angry.

I know damn well the world is filled with idiots and assholes of both sexes.

And what do you mean by &quot my) expectation of unwarranted and unearned praise"? You probably haven't checked my profile, but I'm a dude.

[Darkhawk32]

68. Because vitriol worse than I have ever put forth is being directed on men on DU because of this....

I didn't know you were a dude. It seems that anything less than complete capitulation to a certain point of view is like a beacon for angry female responses.

My apologies for that assumption.

[nomorenomore08]

73. To be honest, I think the biggest problem here is you taking certain posts so personally.

If you're already doing your best to be a decent human, then I don't think you should feel as if you're being blamed for anything in particular. And as we've already been over, plenty of people of both sexes are assholes - but the stats on inter-gender violence (murder, rape, etc.) aren't even close to symmetrical. That is a reality we have to face.

[Darkhawk32]

76. At least reported inter-gender violence....

There's still a huge cultural problem with men reporting violence against them by women.

It's not discussed nor is the problem even acknowledged or respected.

[Darkhawk32]

77. Let me explain...

While I was married and when my ex-wife and I would have arguments, she would get physically violent (slapping, punching, hitting me with objects, slicing my arm with a side-turned metal spatula, etc). There was one time I had to call the police. They did nothing even after showing the officer my wound. I was basically told that she didn't do any permanent harm so they weren't going to do anything to her.

I'm a big guy and can take care of myself physically (but never laid a finger on her) and she was a petite lady. Naturally, I was expected to "take it like a man" and not say a word.

[nomorenomore08]

80. And that is very wrong, and should not be tolerated. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Honestly.

But of course "take it like a man" is also an aspect of outdated gender roles, so while many forms of violence against men have been shamefully downplayed at times, I think "patriarchy" is far more to blame for that than feminism is.

And while many men are victims of domestic abuse, women are still far more likely to be seriously injured or killed by male partners than vice versa. Part of this is simply sexual dimorphism.

[Darkhawk32]

83. Oh for sure. The numbers are skewed against women, no denying that, but the amount of violence

against men cannot be ignored and usually is by simply crying misogyny by even bringing up the subject. The "take it like a man" aspect was probably born of of the patriarchal role but is being continued by both the patriarchal society and the feminist society both having their own agenda to keep it that way. It puts men like me in a very precarious position. Like I said earlier, I've learned that both men and women can be equally full of shit. LOL.

[nomorenomore08]

84. I agree that we all play into these "roles," even unwittingly.

And I hate that ultra-MRA types have so tainted a very necessary discussion by doing the very mirror image of what you describe - i.e. downplaying and even outright dismissing the horrors of anti-woman violence via intentional derailing, claiming that men are the real victims and women the real aggressors. Just look at likely wife-beater Paul Elam for a particularly disgusting example.

Again, I have no wish to dismiss the very real suffering of male DV victims. But far too many people also do the same to female victims, on Internet discussion threads and elsewhere.

[Darkhawk32]

85. I have agreements and disagreements on both sides of gender issues.

Although I concur that DV against women is more prevalent, I feel that ignoring the flip side of the coin isn't helpful.

Although I concur that family courts are skewed toward women, I feel that in some cases men really do deserve what they get and that makes it unwittingly harder on responsible fathers like myself. That being said, changes do need to be made to more easily distinguish the deadbeats parent from the responsible ones.

[nomorenomore08]

86. No disagreement from me. Violence is an enormous human problem, even more so when

it comes from those who supposedly love us.

[Darkhawk32]

87. I've always considered myself to be a "nice guy" but never tried to push myself

toward any sort of expectation from a woman. Perhaps it's my innate shyness. LOL.

But speaking as a "nice guy", it is frustrating when that friendship starts to turn into something more on one end and it isn't received back. No, the woman doesn't owe the "nice guy" anything, but personally, when I maintained a strict friendship with a girl from college even after she was sent to the ER by her boyfriend over and over again but kept going back, it really takes a toll. It makes you think "Am I so worthless that she'd rather date someone like that over me?" I'm not saying what I felt was right or wrong, I don't know and it's hard to judge many years (20+) later, but being the "nice guy" isn't easy. When she finally moved back to Indiana, it was more of a relief than anything else.


I rarely talk about my experiences and it's usually for good reason.

[nomorenomore08]

88. I've been there too, though thankfully none of the young women (to my knowlege) were physically

abused in any way. We can scream and curse at the universe's unfairness all we want, but it doesn't amount to much in the end.

As much as I hate the term "friend zone" and would never use it unironically, I know that kind of frustration all too well.

[Darkhawk32]

89. But, in seems in DU lately, just having that frustration makes you a misogynist. Sad. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

90. I wouldn't say it's "having" it so much as what you do with it. Or how you express it.

A man who gives the impression of a strong sense of entitlement, however inadvertently, tends to put women - and sometimes men - a bit on edge. More so after something like the Rodger shooting.

[Darkhawk32]

91. From what I've read, even "having" it got you into trouble. But hopefully, this will pass.

[raccoon]

107. Obviously the woman you knew had some serious issues.

No, the woman doesn't owe the "nice guy" anything, but personally, when I maintained a strict friendship with a girl from college even after she was sent to the ER by her boyfriend over and over again but kept going back, it really takes a toll. It makes you think "Am I so worthless that she'd rather date someone like that over me?" I'm not saying what I felt was right or wrong, I don't know
and it's hard to judge many years (20+) later, but being the "nice guy" isn't easy.

He sent her to the ER over and over again? And you remained friends (or whatever) with her?

[OKNancy]

94. actually I was sort of agreeing with you

I certainly wasn't attacking.

[Darkhawk32]

109. My apologies.

[freshwest]

18. Nailed it. Now you are a Dangerous Mouse. Thanks. n/t

[OKNancy]

19. I always preferred nice guys. Never was attracted to overly aggressive guys

Back in my dating days... It was a different time I guess. Because back then, I never really had any trouble with men.
Of course I was also nice back. LOL - I've been proposed to 5 times!

[Yavin4]

100. A woman with high self-esteem is going to be attracted to nice guys, not jerks n/t

[yuiyoshida]

21. TATA YOUNG

"Cinderella"

When I was just a little girl
My momma used to tuck me into bed and she read me a story
It always was about a Princess in distress
And how a guy would save her and end up with the glory

I'd lie in bed and think about the person that I wanted to be
Then one day I realized the fairy tale life wasn't for me

[Chorus]
I don't wanna be like Cinderella
Sittin' in a dark old dusty cellar
Waiting for somebody, to come and set me free
I don't wanna be like Snow White waiting
For a handsome prince to come and save me
On a horse of white, unless we're riding side by side
Don't want to depend on no-one else
I'd rather rescue myself

Someday I'm gonna find someone who wants my soul, heart and mind
Who's not afraid to show that he loves me
Somebody who will understand I'm happy just the way I am Don't need nobody taking care of me

I will be there for him just as strong as he, will be there for me
When I give myself then it has got to be, an equal thing

[Chorus]

I can slay, my own dragon
I can dream, my own dreams
My knight in shining armour is me
So I'm gonna set me free

[Chorus]

[seabeyond]

22. YOU... are da man, of the moment. this is an excellent post. spelled out so well.

very clear and yes, obvious. yet YOU, explained it with a clarity and without accusation, just reality.

all it takes is a little awareness. and it does not have to be. thank you for this post. and for talking about your own experience that allows you to state this so clearly, without a need to validate/excuse/justify/dismiss/diminish. lol

[Shankapotomus]

24. I have a serious problem with this OP

And it is this:

If the 'jerks' are exploiting women....

And the 'nice guys' are exploiting women...

Why is the exploitation of the 'jerks' seemingly acceptable? "At least the 'jerks' are open about their exploitation of women"

Seems to me neither should be acceptable.

[Danger Mouse]

27. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 'jerks' are in the right either.

It's just easier to pinpoint them. You can tell somebody's a bigot if they wear the hood and sheet out in the open, you know what I mean?

What I really mean is that 'nice guys' are every bit as sexist as the 'jerks' they claim to be better than.

[Shankapotomus]

39. I think it would help

Last edited Mon May 26, 2014, 01:19 AM - Edit history (1)

instead of just defining the two versions of exploiters, to explicitly outline the type who is not exploiting women.

I don't think it makes a difference whether you're honest about your exploitation or conceal it.

[GirlinContempt]

56. false

No such things as "real women". And women do accept and reward men who exploit them. All the damn time. For most of history. It sucks, it sucks that we live in a society like that, it sucks that we are socialized like that, it sucks that we're constantly being told this is okay and we don't deserve better.
Being exploited doesn't make you not a "real" (wtf is real?!) Woman. The othering and shaming you're engaging in? Not. Effing. Helpful. Very. Effing. Harmful.

[Shankapotomus]

67. Yes

That is a huge error on my part. I removed the offending line.

[GirlinContempt]

70. wow

Thank you

[Shankapotomus]

72. Yes, I know

I sometimes surprise like that...lol.

Thanks for pointing that out to me otherwise that clunker might have sat there unchallenged.

[treestar]

32. This is true

The nice guys are thinking that all the other guys are jerks, I think. Relationships have their ups and downs, and the man in the relationship might be making some of the trouble, but that does not make him a real jerk. These nice guys haven't had a relationship and think they would be perfect in one and it would never have conflict.

There are a few real jerks out there and they may "get" women, but they lose them soon thereafter.

[Sweet Freedom]

43. Honesty

I have two guy friends: one plays the nice guy, the other is the classic jerk.

The jerk knows who he is and he's honest about it—there are no surprises. He lets women know from the beginning what his intentions are. The women can make relationship decisions based on reality (he's not looking for anything serious, doesn't want to get married, just wants to have fun, so take him or leave him—whatever you want.)

The nice guy doesn't know who he is, he just wants to get laid and will sing any song you want to hear in order to make it happen. He plays the part he thinks women want (two weeks into it he's talking about co-habitating, marriage and babies he doesn't really want.) There's no reality. He's just a bullshit player.

The honest jerk has a gazillion friends while the nice guy has baby mamas and pissed off exes who key his car.

Not all nice guys and jerks are exactly like my friends, but in my experience, the honesty thing seems to be prevalent with the jerks.

[Shankapotomus]

45. You make a very good point

Like minded people, even ones that share an attraction to unhealthy behaviors, are going to gravitate to each other. The trick to avoiding a poor match is you have to know who you are.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. Do what works.

Women don't want to be idolized and placed on pedestals.

[wheniwasincongress]

28. Whenever someone calls themself a nice or good person

you should be wary of them. They usually aren't nice or good and they are definitely not too self aware. It's not up to me to decide if I'm a good person, I can only hope (and try) to be and let other people decide what word to describe; we all have a bias towards ourselves and we should recognize it...

I see a lot of "nice guys" get pissed that they're the single ones and the jerks are with the girls. These Nice Guys expect something whether they've opened a door for a woman or have been friends with a woman. Eventually they decide it's the women who have the problems and not them... because they're Nice Guys!

It's like the racists who claim they aren't racist (how else could they have A Black Friend?) or that recent study that showed people thought they were a lot smarter than they actually were. Totally unaware.

[1NiceShark]

35. He was just

an angry little man with a gun. No need to make it all complex. Jody Arias, anyone? 😟

[GirlinContempt]

59. we aren't making it complex

It *is* complex. And ignoring the role of racism or misogyny or homophobia in a situation won't make it go away, it doesn't make the actual situation less complex, it makes it EASIER FOR YOU TO DISMISS AND NEVER FACE YOUR OWN POSSIBLE CULPABILITY OR SIMILARITY.

It's normal, we do this all the time. We turn people into the "other", we cry "monster"! Because we don't want to face it or be associated with it. Normal, but not productive or healthy or helpful.

[GirlinContempt]

62. wtf does Jody Arias have to do with this?!

Please, I'm waiting with bated breath

[1NiceShark]

106. She was just a crazy

woman. There are many.

[GirlinContempt]

118. actually no

If that was the case, she wouldn't have been eligible for the death penalty in Arizona. And the psychologist would have said so. And I still have no clue what a single case of murder had to do with a guy who was a misogynist, engaged in misogyny, delegated it his primary motivator and lived his life that way.

Arguing that because not fucking everyone is motivated by sexism isn't am argument, it's evading the topic at hand.

[IronLionZion]

41. Real decent human beings don't need to "act"

and don't need a reward.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

44. that is one hell of a good editorial.

Well done! And much appreciated.

[LisaL]

53. I don't know that anyone believed Elliot Rodger to be a nice guy, except himself.

[ismnotwasm]

54. This deserves a kick

I've been married to a nice guy for over 20 years. You know what attracted me to him? He really is a nice guy, a good person, a decent human being. And a Democrat.

[DemocraticWing]

55. As a gay guy...

I can usually dismantle the 'nice guy' fallacy by simply pointing out that I am a nice guy, and Mr. Straight Nice Guy is my friend, and that he's being an evil jerk for friend-zoning me. They usually go red in the face trying to explain how it's different when women do it, but really the conclusion is that if somebody doesn't want to be with somebody, then they have that right.

[ismnotwasm]

60. Nice!

[Squinch]

103. That's a great way to make someone see how ridiculous the "friend zone is a personal insult"

mentality is.

[nomorenomore08]

63. Being (genuinely) nice is all well and good, but you have to be interesting too.

Not to derail the thread or anything, I was just adding another (I hope) relevant point.

I have to admit that I've been a little passive-aggressive about this myself, at times. Not to the point of lashing out at anybody, but certainly to the point of being both irritated and more than a little depressed.

I don't know why I've had so many close platonic female friends but so few non-platonic ones. But I definitely value the friendships I've had and still do have with these individuals. After a while you just have to get over the "resentment" and realize life is too short for that kind of shit. Like someone said upthread, it's all about the right person at the right time.

Regardless, though, thanks for a great OP. K&R and then some.

[Yavin4]

97. Be the best person that you can be. If that's not good enough for some people, so what.

I disagree that the onus has to be on the guy to be "interesting". Just be the best you, that you can be.

[nomorenomore08]

117. I think you have the right idea. n/t

[backscatter712]

71. Too many "nice" guys think...

...that how it works is that you insert "nice" coins into the sex vending machines, and when you insert enough "nice" coins, the machine dispenses nookie.

That's not how things work. Shocking, I know...

They call them "nice" guys, and that would be accurate if "nice" meant "trying to be manipulative and douchey, but bad at it".

Pro tip: If a woman doesn't show attraction to you, you're not going to be able to make her become attracted to you by treating her like a vending machine. Get over it and move on.

[mainer]

92. The real prize isn't sex. It's making a true friend.

Much harder to do, and in the end worth far more than mere sex. I wish men would understand that. Do you want a night in the sack, or do you want another human being who will bring you soup and hugs when you're sick?

[TBF]

95. This is excellent - should be required reading. K&R nt

[99Forever]

98. Cripes.

You certainly kicked the crap out of that strawman!!!!11!!11!!!1!1!



WTG.

[Danger Mouse]

111. Care to elaborate?

[99Forever]

115. Nope.

[Yavin4]

99. It's not about being a "nice" guy. It's about being the best that you can be and being happy

with yourself. Most of the "nice" guys that many people in this thread are deriding are not nice guys. These are guys with low self-esteem who seek validation of themselves through women. It's funny because the "jerks" do the same thing. They too seek validation of themselves through women. It's just that their egos are larger and can accept rejection easier to get what they want. Ironically, the only women that the jerks get are those women that suffer from self-esteem issues.

A true nice guy is someone that respects women, and expects nothing else but respect in return. What you're describing is someone with low self esteem, not a nice guy.

[1StrongBlackMan]

101. Great OP ...

destined for the bottom, because of stuff like this:

These 'nice guys' are everywhere, and many (if not most) of them would classify themselves as liberal. On the surface they espouse feminist philosophy, decry sexism, and advocate respect for women.

That's would leave a mark on many here ... but for the inability to self-reflect.

[Danger Mouse]

114. I write it because I know it. Because I lived it.

And I see it now in others. The only way to stop this destructive cycle is to recognize it and try to do differently.

[Laelth]

104. Interesting thread.

But lecturing young men isn't going to solve this problem. Lecturing men, in fact, might have caused this problem (at least in the case of the UCSB shooter at issue, here).



More here.

-Laelth

[MillennialDem]

110. BecIf your being nice to a woman is contingent on her having sex with you (but viewing her as dirt

if she won't), you aren't really a nice guy.

You're just a horndog trickster and actually a jerk. You're the exact same as a bad boy, you just aren't getting any. Two sides of the same coin.

Also there is more than just nice guy and bad boy. I am lesbian and understand this easily - although I am also MTF trans so I had an insider's view of the man world for 21 years.

[link:|

[Danger Mouse]

116. that guy is missing his fedora and more neckbeard.

[demmiblue]

113. K&R

[alarimer]

120. Interestingly, women are never "friend-zoned"; they are usually rejected outright.

Mostly because they do not meet some rigidly defined "hotness" attribute.

These guys who object to being "friend-zoned" also would never consider anyone who doesn't meet their standard of attractiveness. Meanwhile, women who are rejected (and some of us have been rejected by nearly everyone) are told that it is our fault. We are defective in some way and we need to work on ourselves. Sometimes it might be true, to one degree or another.

These PUA guys NEVER see rejection as a chance to improve themselves. It is ALWAYS the fault of women; these women are "broken", to use their phrase. They are "alpha" and perfect so why try to improve themselves?

Most people who are rejected move on, with the attitude that there are a lot of fish in the sea and just because one particular person is interested, it does not follow that no one will ever be interested.

Some of though, I have to say, is that in our society, men are taught that they are entitled to sex. There is a sort of toxic masculinity that certainly contributes.