I want to know how men REALLY think about women and sex

[fried eggs]

Men and women view certain things differently. When men speak openly about their thoughts, we have a tendency to shut them down right away. Even right here on DU. Instead of flying off the handle, let's try to learn more about certain mindsets so we can know how to address it with our own sons and family.

[Mojo Electro]

1. That's a pretty broad question.

It's a big topic.

Is there anything more specific you'd like to know?

edit: FWIW, I'm a big fan of both.

[fried eggs]

3. I don't know where to begin

I've had to form my own conclusions about many things over time. I think money and finances are intertwined into male psychology as well. All I know is that something about money, women, and sex has lead to a bunch of really angry men.

[Mojo Electro]

6. Sex/relationships and wealth have a long, storied history

Having money greatly increases a man's prospects with women, and with enough wealth that can sometimes badly skew his outlook on it. (not always)

I'm speculating because I have never been rich, but it's no surprise to me that a person who has had something thrown at them their entire life would never learn it's value.

[Laelth]

12. Angry men, yes.

Not to derail your thread, but I launched my own thread this morning on a similar topic. You can find the thread here.



-Laelth

[Leme]

60. not similar at all

jmo

[genwah]

2. I thank you for raising the question. Hopefully it will start men and women thinking

about the answer. Because as an individual, what I think of women and sex is longer than any reply in a blog, and could go into small-book territory. I suspect that if you asked anyone of any gender what they think about sex, if you persisted you'd get an incredible...well, never mind.

As far as 'certain mindsets'; I'm a mid-fifty-ish male, bisexual, BDSM oriented ex-sex worker who believes that everyone deserves a satisfying sex life. How much do you want to know about my mindset so that you can address it with your own sons and family?

[Beacool]

87. Wow, you have a very interesting personal history.

I bet you could write a book about all your experiences in the field.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. I've been here for twelve years.

This is the first time I've seen the question asked.

I expect your op will drop like a stone because disabusing people of their notions will be considered disruptive.

I'd replace "even right here" with "especially right here". In 100% of prior experience, DU's women tell me what men really think.

[closeupready]

26. +1000. Sad, but true.

[libodem]

31. Of course we will

Cuz that's how we roll. You are darned good natured about it, too. You have learned well, Grasshopper.

[bettyellen]

38. Did you just opt out here? You can lead some men to water, but...

You just can't get them to share their feelings, go get regular medical check ups or avail themselves of the educational opportunities they are given. What is up with that- must be a woman's fault!

[treestar]

52. Weirdly ties right in to the right wing old fashioned idea

that women are responsible to make men feel good about themselves. That was why they had to pretend not to be as smart as he, even if they did know something he did not. The whole idea she had to prop him up.

[bettyellen]

56. yes, the want a "nanny state" courtesy of us women- we need to make sure they go to the doc,

study hard in school, and now- to beg them to explain their feelings here, LOL. We aren't for equality, unless we can make them take care of all their shit. Hilarious!

[dionysus]

82. i think making your partner feel good about themselves is noble, so long as it doesn't come at the

expense of oneself or oneself integrity, and that cuts both ways.

not the 1950's kiss-your-husbands-ass-and-play-dumb shit, of course, just being supportive of your partner in general...

[treestar]

88. Sure.

I agree. I was thinking of a tract from right wingers we were talking about a few days ago. I can't find it now as my browser history has so many pages from the last few days. I googled "godly wife" and found some sickening enough stuff though!

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22godly+wife%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[dionysus]

135. i couldn't even make it past the third point in that link before throwing up in my mouth a little,

and I was just over at Discussionist replying to some god awful, moronic shitpiles of arguments as well.

I need to go make a broken glass and bleach cocktail, maybe huff a little glue, and then perhaps, just maybe, I can then relate to the pure idiocy these people espouse...

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. "No, that dress doesn't make you look fat."

Surely no man has ever said such a thing out of a perceived need to "make women feel good about themselves".

[treestar]

89. I'm talking about the old doctrine

say from the 50s, where you were advised not to reveal your intelligence, lest the man feel inferior.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. I think you're confusing conscientiousness with a big patriarchal conspiracy. n/t

[Skittles]

96. just curious but, why isn't it dropping like a stone?

[Eleanors38]

119. A hit below the forward stack!

[Laelth]

5. Good idea.

I wish you success in this endeavor. DU, as you rightly note, is not the best forum for the kind of discussion you seek.

-Laelth

[Iggo]

21. Good idea face-to-face in the real world. Not on an internet message board.

Especially this one, now.

[nomorenomore08]

64. +1

And this will be my only post in the thread...

[fried eggs]

37. Should I join discussionist?

Though I don't want to have the conversation with outright misogynists. I want to hear from progressive men.

[genwah]

42. Who is a progressive man? n/t

[nomorenomore08]

65. One who's not an "outright misogynist"? That's a start anyway...

[bettyellen]

57. It's very mixed bag over there, with more RW assholes for sure.

[Shankapotomus]

7. I think

If we can't play nice with each other everyone is better off alone.

All this pining for relationships and the drama associated with it all. A person could have a better time with themselves than all this crap.

I've said this many times and it still rings true for me: You don't need someone to be happy. You need someone to be unhappy.

Happiness comes from within.

[Laelth]

13. I disagree.

Humans are social and sexual animals. Generally speaking, we need human social interaction, touch, love, and intimacy (including sex). Being denied these things makes us mean and nasty. Sometimes it makes us dangerously violent (i.e. the UCSB shooter).



-Laelth

[Shankapotomus]

23. You certainly shouldn't renounce it if it's attainable

But the problem is some people get the message that being alone is such an unacceptable, bad and unhappy place to be they become so discontent with it to the point they act out violently. We need to teach people it's okay to go with the flow of your life and not try to force anything. If you wind up in a social situation that's great. But if you wind up in a solitary place that's okay too. Both experiences have their positive and negative aspects. No one should be ashamed with either.

[Laelth]

33. I agree that it's wrong to shame people who are alone.

I also agree that it's possible to lead a full, mostly-happy life alone. That said, I think we're all better off with love, touch, intimacy, and companionship.

-Laelth

[Shankapotomus]

36. It helps

[shedevil69taz]

101. We are social creatures

But I have found from experience some people (including myself) don't need a traditional monogamous long term relationship in order to get what they need for themselves from other people. Actually found for myself marriage and other LTR were at the best very tedious and at worst soul crushing for me.

When I was honest about exactly what I was looking for (whether it be a one night stand or a FWB situation etc) I had no problems finding willing partners.

[Laelth]

131. I agree that marriage isn't for everyone. n/t

-Laelth

[shedevil69taz]

132. the responses I get though from people who think it's the holy grail

you would think I was the anti-christ when I try explaining how I live my life.

[treestar]

19. I agree, and with that old saw about stop looking

Don't look, don't think about it, be yourself. If you can be happy on your own, then you can be happy with someone else without demanding they be the one to make you happy.

[Shankapotomus]

25. Yep

And when people see you happy alone, they sometimes want to know why (because we all seek happiness) and that's what draws people to you.

[closeupready]

28. I also disagree. Sex is essential for happiness.

[treestar]

30. Depends on the person

There are asexual people, who are happiest without it. There are all kinds of people in the world. That is why these generalizations about men/women are wrong. I think the main problem with these MRAs is they refuse to acknowledge that. Somehow that makes them insecure. They want there to be a set of rules.

[closeupready]

32. Well, yeah, I was generalizing - naturally, there will be exceptions

to every generalization - by definition, a generalization does NOT apply to every data point.

(Without family, happiness is very unlikely. 'But wait! What about loners?' )

[mathematic]

75. No, by definition a generalization applies to every data point.

Stop abusing this word.

[closeupready]

84. Okay, I think I'm done here.

[Shankapotomus]

34. Maybe for you

I say it's an activity preference, not an essential for happiness, as evidence by the many happy asexual partners and happy hermits throughout history.

[redqueen]

40. +1

[closeupready]

44. For most people. If you don't need it, you are 1 in maybe 100.

[genwah]

47. Absolutely! +1 Everyone deserves the sex life they want and if it's

none of the above, more power to 'em! No kidding, really, there is so much societal pressure to have sex, it's just stupid.

[PasadenaTrudy]

85. Nope

You are wrong on that one.

[Skittles]

97. I absolutely agree

it is astounding how many people who seemingly cannot stand their own company desperately search for partners to make them happy, and how many of them stay in terrible relationships because they perceive that as better than being alone - it's pitiful, really

[steve2470]

105. The inability to withstand aloneness is a big problem in American society

The overwhelming extroverted message is, aloneness is a bad thing for more than, say, 12 hours. If you're alone, there's something WRONG with you. Utter unadulterated bullshit. If you can't be alone, YOU have the problem. That's not arguing for a permanently reclusive existence. It's the ability to wait until a suitable partner comes along. So many many married people cannot stand the thought of being alone. It terrifies them and depresses them into staying miserably married. Fuck that noise.

[Skittles]

107. YOU KNOW IT STEVE

I'm longtime single and it has never bothered me - I can go to the movies, go out to eat, go for a walk and I can enjoy it without the validation of another person. And when I am WITH someone, I truly enjoy their company as opposed to my NEEDING them to make ME feel better. YEE HAW!

[steve2470]

122. yep no ass kicking required :)

That which makes us afraid chains us down. At least the aloneness issue doesn't chain me down. A few others, yep, I'm working on those.

[steve2470]

127. that's deep Warren

You have to be very evolved to be at peace with that knowledge. One can deeply love one's partner, yet she/he can be snatched away from you at a moment's notice for a variety of reasons. I can't say I'm there yet. When I really deeply love a woman, I want her to stay, damnit. The world doesn't work that way, as you say. If you're fortunate, he or she will stay for a long time.

I agree with you about the completeness and aloneness aspect.

[steve2470]

129. I think very few are

I think it's a very common human tendency to get attached to people, hopefully in healthy ways. Grief, as you know, is the whole process of untangling/detachment/letting go of the loved one. If you don't grieve someone at all, were you connected to them ? I've never heard of someone who did not grieve at all when they lost a loved one. Of course, there's healthy grieving and then there's pathological grieving.

This is why I come to DU. Thank you, Warren and Skittles, sincerely.

[Skittles]

137. that is an interesting observation

I grew up as a GI brat, and my grandparents lived in Minnesota and England. I always knew while growing all my interactions and friends were temporary - this was way before the internet - I would go years without even speaking to my grandparents because it was too expensive to call, and when I said goodbye to my friends I knew I would not see them again. I think I learned that trick, to accept the fleeting and transitory, perhaps way too early.

[Skittles]

139. aw the lessons in diversity were amazing

I never saw kids of color any differently than me, because their dad were enlisted just like mine was. Alright maybe the officers' kids were a bit snootier LOL. Also, when you have to make new friends literally every year, you get real lessons in personalities. I was never part of any "clique" and always stuck up for the underdog. Yes INDEED.

[L0oniX]

8. Well this will only bring on an attack by the the *s. Delete now or suffer their wrath.

[DetlefK]

9. Well, somebody has to start.

I'm a heterosexual man and I believe that sex and emotion are less connected in men than in women.

Women have some more or less well-defined criteria what they are looking for in a guy. If he seems to meet those criteria, they are willing to engage emotionally. Sex comes later after a closer inspection.

In men, those criteria are far more diffuse. We don't really know, what we are looking for. We want her to be pretty, because we are sexually attracted to pretty women. But at the same time we want somebody who understands us, somebody with whom we can share our passions.

Let's distinguish people in 3 kinds of classes, depending on how eager you are to get personal with them: "Yes", "Maybe" and "No". While women consider more men a Maybe than they consider a Yes, men have more Yes's than Maybes. And that's because their criteria are less well-defined. Men are not really interested in the woman herself, because their mind is preoccupied with the IMAGE they have of her in their mind.

And what IMAGE do men have of women? It's what culture dictates. In ancient tales the hero got a pretty princess after proving his worth with mighty deeds. In modern times, the increasing demand for entertainment and ever-greater aesthetic perfection has created a race where performers of public interest seek to outdo each other by adhering closer and closer to some abstract standard of beauty.
(Sexualization. Porn. Ridiculously unrealistic photoshopping)
The woman is not a person, but a piece of art. Something to own, something to brag about. A piece of luxury. And how does a man earn luxury? With mighty deeds.

So, that's the basic problem with men: We are essentially looking for two women at the same time:
* We want a woman for our emotional needs. That special someone. Love. But we don't know how to get there.
* We want a woman that looks like the cultural definition of beauty and we think we can get it the same way that we can get other prizes: With success. With money. With heroic quests. By proving that we are REAL guys.

Too many men regard women as a reward, as a consequence of their actions. "I am entitled to beautiful women because of the stuff I have done." They forget that they are not the center of the universe: It's not only their actions that matter. Other people matter, too.



The real challenge would be for a man to engage with a woman emotionally, to open up. An honest exchange of thoughts, hopes, strengths, weaknesses.
But too few men have the emotional maturity to confront and accept their emotions and to share them with somebody else.

"Talking about your feelings? That's for pussies!"

[LWolf]

14. I have seen some of this.

I think there is also a strong connection to the culture, as far as women, a man was raised in.

I'm not a man, so I really can't say for sure. I watch my adult sons, though, and I see that they prefer committed monogamy, and they choose intelligent, independent women who are their own captains, so to speak. My younger son has been with the same woman for 12 years, and my older son just got engaged to the woman he's been with for 3. I think they have good taste in women, and I wonder how much of that is having been raised by a hard working single mother who was never "taken care of" by any man in any kind of relationship, while watching their fuck-up dad hop in and out of one disastrous relationship after the next.

Your post makes me wonder about the woman providing half of your equation: do men experience better sex with women who are closer to society's current definitions of beauty, or is it all about initial attraction and public display?

[fried eggs]

16. Very interesting. Thanks! How do you think

this should be addressed:

The real challenge would be for a man to engage with a woman emotionally, to open up. An honest exchange of thoughts, hopes, strengths, weaknesses.

Why are some men able to do that while others are not?

[closeupready]

46. Misogyny means hatred for women; if you hated women, would you 'engage with

a woman emotionally', or would you demand subjugation?

[Inkfreak]

51. One reason could be that we are taught early on to bottle up emotional issues.

Maybe not outright taught but in our society we are shown that to "man up" is more important.

And as we grow older some men shuck that mindset and others wrestle with it.

[redqueen]

41. Thank you SO MUCH for your excellent explanation of objectification and its consequences

Men are not really interested in the woman herself, because their mind is preoccupied with the IMAGE they have of her in their mind.

And what IMAGE do men have of women? It's what culture dictates. In ancient tales the hero got a pretty princess after proving his worth with mighty deeds. In modern times, the increasing demand for entertainment and ever-greater aesthetic perfection has created a race where performers of public interest seek to outdo each other by adhering closer and closer to some abstract standard of beauty.
(Sexualization. Porn. Ridiculously unrealistic photoshopping)
The woman is not a person, but a piece of art. Something to own, something to brag about. A piece of luxury. And how does a man earn luxury? With mighty deeds.

So, that's the basic problem with men: We are essentially looking for two women at the same time:
* We want a woman for our emotional needs. That special someone. Love. But we don't know how to get there.
* We want a woman that looks like the cultural definition of beauty and we think we can get it the same way that we can get other prizes: With success. With money. With heroic quests. By proving that we are REAL guys.

Too many men regard women as a reward, as a consequence of their actions. "I am entitled to beautiful women because of the stuff I have done." They forget that they are not the center of the universe: It's not only their actions that matter. Other people matter, too.

And what is a reward? A THING.

[bhikkhu]

58. Good points. I can say I had my ideals, but I never got there in real life

I wanted a partner, an equal to share and enjoy life with: I got two (good) kids and a resentful employee - relation failed. "Opening up" was never a good option for me, as she could have a cruel streak and a temper...lesson learned. Simply being a strong person emotionally, being committed and willing to keep giving, only works up to a point, and everyone is ultimately breakable.

I'd say I should have been more careful to begin with but I have my own flaws I'm sure. After the first four years it was more about minimizing risk and loss and saving what could be saved, bearing what could be born, for the sake of giving the kids a reasonably adequate upbringing. All the emotional side is long passed and I'm looking forward to moving on.

My wife and I have already had an "amicable divorce", though we are raising the kids together still, in the same house. I don't know if I would do better if I had to do it over again with a better understanding, but I'm inclined to think, once the kids have grown and moved out, that I may be done with all that. Probably I'm not qualified to say anything here, but in spite of everything I'd still like to think that a good partnership, an equal, giving partnership, would be the best way to share and enjoy a good life.

[alittlelark]

108. ^^^ This ^^^ ...Thank You

You are the first one I have seen in this thread discussing real issues - in THEIR REAL LIFE......

Thank You!!

[TM99]

86. I think you are close but missing one crucial component.

Women are exactly the same.

Yes, they really are. I have counseled both sexes for decades - singles, couples, cis & transgendered, gay & straight, etc.

Women are also looking for two men (or two women) at the same time as well.

They want a partner that will meet their emotional needs, and that varies from woman to woman as it does from man to man. They want that someone special. Love. And just like most men, they also don't know how to get there.

They want a man that fits cultural definitions as well such as power and success. They objectify in the exact same ways. If they are beautiful enough, sweet enough, nurturing enough, smart enough, etc., then they will get the 'prize' as well - the perfect man who will love them so well that he will read their minds and instantly know exactly what she means by 'perfect love'.

And women also believe that men are a reward as well. I am beautiful so I can pick any man I want. I am perfect in bed. I am smarter than most men. Neither sex has the monopoly on self-absorption and solipsistic thinking about themselves and the world around them.

Feminism which seeks to truly create equality and addresses women-to-women realities is a great thing. I have a problem with the brand of feminism which I sadly see far too often on these boards which really boils down to men = bad and women = good.

And I believe that your last paragraph falls right into that perversion of belief. The real challenge for BOTH men and women is to open up and to honestly share their thoughts, hopes, strengths, weaknesses, etc. No gender again holds the monopoly on emotional immaturity. Women are no more 'goddesses' who perfectly embody maturity, awareness, the ability to make choices separate from their biology, etc. than men are all capable of rape, violent by their essential nature, and emotionally stunted in their relationships.

Again, both sexes are exactly the same. I see immature men AND women daily. They are young. They are middle aged. They are old. They lie to themselves and deceive others in their unconsciousness. They are screwed up in their relationships. They are unable to find happiness within or without.

Do you want to really know what men think about women and sex? The exact damned thing that women think about men and sex. It is culturally conditioned. It is based on their familial upbringings. It is based on their own constitutions and innate psychic orientations. We fixate on the differences only to ignore the real similarities.

And around and around we go.

[PassingFair]

95. "I see immature men AND women daily."

There is the problem with your POV.

Happily married, mature men and women are NOT the people you are describing.

[TM99]

112. If only, it was 'my' POV.

Sadly, there are many many men and women who are married who are still quite emotionally immature. It would be wonderful if marriage only helped all achieve maturity, wouldn't it?

[alittlelark]

110. ....uh, yeah.... "Again, both sexes are exactly the same."

"Again, both sexes are exactly the same.".... your quote.....


You say you are a counselor?!? Seriously....

[TM99]

113. At the core of human experience

of desire and intimacy, yes, we are the same.

Are their differences? I think if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I certainly said there are - biology, upbringing, cultural experiences, innate constitution, etc.

Trying to argue that men and women are so fundamentally different when it comes to sexuality & intimacy? Seriously?

[alittlelark]

115. Uh, yeah....we are QUITE different.

I cannot imagine a 'mental health professional' saying we are the same. Not if they had an education behind them.

[TM99]

116. Imaginations are not reality.

At the core of our experiences, yes, we are the same. We seek love, sexual fulfillment, intimacy, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, happiness, safety, etc. We are shaped by a variety of things - biology, innate psychic tendencies, culture, race, gender, orientation, etc. But at the core, no the differences do not out way the similarities.

Deny all you want. I see this daily as well. Remaining fixated and rigid in such beliefs is part of the problem. My wife can't possibly understand, she is a woman. Oh, he is just thinking with his dick, he can't possibly know what it is like. My neighbor can't see past his white privilege. My student is always going to be this way, he grew up in the hood. Hell, he's gay, that explains it. Damn, straight women just don't get it, do they?

And as I said, around and around we go.

[alittlelark]

117. No, as someone w/ an Anth degree I can tell you we are.

....and always will be. Males will seek out any female they can find to spread his genes. Human females are very selective when looking to 'breed'. We are investing 1 year into our offspring (needing food, care, shelter...). Men invest 15 seconds or more as often as they can in the hopes of reproducing.

......that's why male birds have all the pretty colors and dances....

We are Very different when it comes to reproduction - and you know that if you are an educated therapist.

Our emotions are OURS and are obviously influenced by our society. The bottom line is that Females make the reproductive decisions in the 'natural world'..... What world are we living in now?


BTW - absolutely no belief that you are a mental health professional unless you are PUI (posting under the influence)... That last paragraph.... sigh.....

[TM99]

118. So is that a BA or Ph.D. in Anthropology?

You remain focused on one small aspect of life in general. I am not denying biology or evolutionary psychology.

I am a licensed Ph.D psychologist who has dealt with the world of real human relationships, in the trenches so to speak, for decades.

As far as your snarky and insulting barbs are concerned, if you continue to reply in such a way with me, I will need to put you on Ignore. I have not had to resort to insults in order to disagree or debate with you. It might be nice, if you didn't prove my very point about the fact that both men and women, no matter how old, educated, etc. can still be quite emotionally immature when it comes to just basic human relating and communications.

[alittlelark]

124. Pedestrian BA looking at something on her heel...

IM me w/ cred's I can check if you wish.....


Otherwise I am not biting.... or ... not going for the low fruit.... whatever....

[TM99]

133. Well, I am not playing your game either.

You brought up your credentials as a way to discount my professional experiences. I have not denied the reality of differences. You have summarily dismissed my experiences and knowledge with your supposed authority.

I don't need to be in a 'pissing contest' with you, and I have nothing to prove to you. Like anyone on an anonymous message board, take it or leave it.

Have a good morning.

[bhikkhu]

111. I agree, that's been my experience as well

there is no "male mind" and "female mind", though we do all undergo cultural conditioning that bends us one way or another.

I think a great deal can be gained by thinking of ourselves and others as individuals, dropping the stereotypes and value judgements based on appearance and so forth. Its been said (and well-proven, I believe) that "races don't exist", inasmuch as measured differences between races are far less than the differences between individuals within any race. So, race as a way of defining an individual simply doesn't work. The same applies to gender, in my experience - what you can know about a person based on outward appearance is entirely trivial, compared to who that person really is inside. Yet we continually judge and expect based on appearance...

[TM99]

121. Yes, thank you.

There is the human experience at the root of it all. We seek and desire the same things. We are definitely shaped by our biology, gender differences, upbringings both familial and cultural, race, orientation, etc. Yet, agreeably, that is often taken as the reality when there is something deeper.

I am guessing that this orientation is de passe and not really supported in the US much at this time. We are so fixated on our differences. We are so much enjoying the conflicts, the 'team sports' aspects of American life - from iPod versus Android to now sadly men versus women all over again.

[seabeyond]

123. what men think about women and sex? The exact damned thing that women think about men and sex.

agree with your whole post... but the jab at feminists . totally agree. and that is why i have enjoyed listening to so many of the men on this thread, they really are pretty much reiterating the fact that

it is a people issue, not a gender issue.

like your post.

[dawg]

10. Everyone views things according to their own unique perspective.

There's no "man's" way of thinking about women and sex. Every person is different. I can only tell you about "dawg's" way of looking at things.

[Ferretherder]

103. A-mutha-fuckin'-men, my friend!

Somebody just won THIS discussion, HANDS DOWN!

God/Dog, there are a few sentient beings left on this God/Dog-forsaken discussion board!

[RobertEarl]

11. I want to know what people think about war

Sex is a minor problem when juxtaposed to getting your war on.

Guns are a segment of the war making mentality. A gun can make you feel powerful and can lead you to very easily kill some one.

Women bring us into this world and for that we have an instinct to be accepted by and nurtured by women. When rejected the hurt can become deeply disturbing. I takes time, acceptance and nurturing to overcome that pain.

But at the same time, women should make sure their sons grow up to be independent. Teach them to not see war as an answer to solving problems. There is no better teacher than a mother. Mothers are not treated as well as they should be by this society and it shows.

I've had 3 mothers in my career as a big strong male. At least three that taught me, nurtured me and accepted me. I owe much to them for their efforts and hope they all can see that had some success with moi.

Stream of consciousness stuff, i know, but there it is. Love ya Mom (s).

[LWolf]

18. Interesting,

especially in light of what I just posted to the OP.

My initial reaction was to think that you went totally off-topic, but reading further, not really. You've expressed, in your own male way, what I as a mother of sons was trying to say earlier about female influence.

I think you are also saying that dealing with the aggression that testosterone and societal conditioning give to men is a bigger deal than sex. As a woman, I've been under the impression that biological imperatives concerning sex for men are a pretty big deal. Am I wrong?

My son tells me that, in spite of my life-long fierce love of my sons, and theirs for me, that I really don't "get" how boys think, which is why he handles his own adolescent son, my grandson's, issues better in some situations. Even though I'm very close to my grandson, and he still, even as a teenager, enjoys that closeness.

[RobertEarl]

27. We are different

I don't know beyond biology what makes us so different.

But i do think the environment plays a huge part in the mental development which produces differences.

I do know men work hard to shame each other. Might be because of the 'king-of-the-hill' playing that we boys were encouraged to play from young ages.

I've been watching some wild animals recently. The family intercourse i have seen is much the same as human family intercourse. Boys will be boys and the women rule; up to a point.

As for is sex that big a deal? I'd say it is close to equal for both sexes. It is just experienced differently given the societal power structure and personal history. And, boys will be boys. We can can learn to act differently than how we are taught to act, tho. My moms used to tell me that all the time. "Grow up!"

[bemildred]

15. There is no one way men and women think.

That said, civilized talk is better. Civility is better. Anger and fear won't fix a thing. I think society gives both men and women strange ideas about what to expect from each other. I remember being in my twenties, when my first marriage blew up, and realizing that all I thought I knew about women was likely horseshit. And about myself too. It's been a long road since then, but much more rewarding. And I think men and women are much more alike (accounting for plumbing differences) then we generally allow.

[genwah]

39. Hear, hear! Not about your first marriage, of which, whatever, but I have also

found that men and women are much more alike in terms of sex and sexuality than we, as a culture, are ready to admit.

[bemildred]

45. I'm on my third, 26 years now.

That makes me feel good.

[genwah]

48. Yay! Good on ya' my best wishes to you and your obviously beloved. From here, it sounds like

you won the big jackpot.

[treestar]

17. People have individual views

There isn't some formula of men think this and women another.

Different pressures were put on by patriarchal society, now breaking down, so that you can ask the person individually what they think.

[dawg]

20. I have old-fashioned beliefs about sex.

I don't want to have sex with someone I don't love. I don't want to knowingly use someone just for their body.

[redqueen]

49. There's a term for this now.

Demisexual.

[dawg]

55. I don't think that applies to me.

I have a really strong sex drive, and I'm physically attracted to lots of women. I just don't think it is a wise or kind thing for me to get sexual with someone outside of a loving and committed relationship.

[Common Sense Party]

109. WTF????

How in the hell did you get THAT diagnosis from what that poster wrote?

[KurtNYC]

22. There is no one way that all men think about women and sex

All I really know is that honesty is the foundation of any good relationship, even a brief one. Tunnel vision by either partner, eg ignoring or downplaying red flags, refusal to address gut level concerns or hunches in an open way, prolongs but dooms a relationship. It can be a form of lying to one's self, seeing what you want to see rather than what is there. Talking and honesty can sort that all out.

Jealousy is a bad sign. I have met many people of either gender who think that a jealous partner is truly interested in them and is just being passionate but jealousy is distrust. It is also often a projection of the jealous person's own expectations for themselves and by extension their partner. In other words, if they would expect themselves to cheat or lie then they expect it in others hence the jealousy.

[Laelth]

35. Insightful post. n/t

-Laelth

[winter is coming]

50. Jealousy is a relationship-killer. Want a good relationship? Be a friend as well as a lover.

Unless it's a one night stand, you're going to spend more time together out of the sack than in it.

[alittlelark]

125. Jealousy is ALWAYS a bad sign......

It is is the biggest red flag out there.

[closeupready]

24. Then don't ask about it here on DU.

End of story.

[Iggo]

59. Correct.

[TransitJohn]

29. You might, but the prevailing culture on DU won't really allow it. eom

n/t

[el_bryanto]

43. I notice with some interest that despite many predictions to the opposite this post still exists

Was there a time frame in which it was supposed to be destroyed? Or just eventually?

Bryant

[bhikkhu]

53. Sex should be like a gift from one to another

It means everything if its reciprocal.

It doesn't mean much if its just self-gratification or for the sake of one's own pleasure. It means nothing if its taken or coerced, or done with deceit, or not appreciated.

[Inkfreak]

54. Growing up male can be a difficult thing.

Vastly different from a female obviously. But with it's own unique problems and pitfalls. The mind of a young male teen can be a bit...erratic? Jumbled? Confused? Proper role models and healthy discussions can help a young man wade through these years.

Sex and relationships?? That can be a tricky field to wade into if one is not educated properly on the male/female dynamic. Add in everyone's unique personalities...

Basically, I got nothing.

[WinkyDink]

61. Be careful what you wish for!

[Arugula Latte]

62. As a woman

my perception is that there are a lot of men who don't view women as 100 percent human. Yes, plenty do. Plenty are good men, etc. etc. etc. But, more times than I can count, I've been on the receiving end of behavior in which I had the distinct sense that I was looked upon as a lesser, a being who wasn't worthy of respect as a human being. I would bet that most women have had this feeling at one time and, more likely, many times in their lives.

[On the Road]

63. I Think the *Range* is Probably a Lot Greater

than might be anticipated. "Men" includes male individuals you respect and admire as well as those you don't.

A lot of the criticism of males IMO has to do with the social dynamics of groups of men and boys. Callousness and attempts to personally dominate others are tools used to gain standing, respect, or leadership. This is expressed most frequently within the group but also towards women. When women talk about men acting like pigs, I think a large of what they are justly complaining about is wolf pack behavior.

Some men are able to navigate the terrain without becoming misogynistic -- Obama and Carter seems like good examples. Some men do not hang out with groups of males with this dynamic -- they may be loners or socialize in mixed company or perhaps religious circles where this is not part of the culture. Like racists, sexists may drop a loaded comment into a conversation to see how another man will respond before going full chauvinist. As a result, many men may see chauvanistic behavior only occasionally at a distance.

As far as how men think about sex: Men experience the whole range of emotions women do, although certainly not in the same proportions. If there is one difference that might be overlooked, it the attitude towards physical sex apart from love. My impression is women tend to think of sex as an expression of love, and that love without sex is sad or meaningless. For a man, physical sex can be extraordinarily important. To an adolescent male, sex is difficult to separate from the meaning of life. Sex with an attractive partner is tantamount to justifying one's entire existence. It doesn't mean the sex is mindless or bestial, just that the emotional component is not a required element.

[Leme]

66. Not sure if you want me to explain men to you

or if you want 10 men to give their personal view. And sex with a woman might be different than overall experience of sex with women.

[Major Nikon]

67. Heterosexual sex should be no different for women or men

Other than the obvious physical reality that one has an innie and the other an outie.

It should never be assumed or used as a bargaining chip and it should always be mutually beneficial, assuming the interest is in a productive relationship.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. For men and women, relationships and self worth are related.

The difference is that the self worth of men is directly measurable. It's measured by touchdowns, girlfriends, money, or a resume, and people really do keep score.

If you fail at life, you have only yourself to blame because "you're playing life on the lowest difficulty level". As such, to people who don't find casual sexual relationships plentiful and easy, there's an element of desperation involved.

[XemaSab]

69. You think that's not true for women?

Think before you answer this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. I've been married for 30 years.

I have brothers, sisters and friends of both sexes.

When disappointment strikes one of the women, a comforting support network of friendship descends upon her shoulders to ward off any implication that this was self inflicted or preventable.

The guys? The maximum support he's likely to get is a sympathetic "ouch, that sucks". Part of the reaction is because they may be friends, but they are also competitors. The better car, the better resume, the better girlfriend all are mechanisms by which men (and women) keep score of men's social fitness.

Also, and importantly, while single women are assumed to be single by choice, bachelors are judged to be unfit marriage material. This stereotype also has the merit of being largely true. Women are the gatekeepers of sex and relationships, men rarely say no to a woman who is interested in him, provided it doesn't conflict with a more valuable relationship.

Today is an opportunity for a second "first". I now get to use one of the more common DU communications techniques; "This thread is about men and the issues we face, if you want to make it about women, you should start a new thread".

[Hippo_Tron]

71. If women are assumed to be single by choice, from where did the pejorative "cat lady" come from?

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. Non sequitur

I see nothing that suggests the crazy cat lady stereotype is derived from anything other than her own choices.

[snooper2]

90. Wikipedia! and YouTube, documentary was done in 2009

Kitty Kitty Kitty!

Usage and association

At least in the Anglosphere, women who own cats have long been associated with the concept of spinsterhood. In more recent decades, the concept of a cat lady has been associated with "romance-challenged (often career-oriented) women".[1]

The term is also used to denote an animal hoarder who keeps large numbers of cats without having the ability to properly house or care for them.[3] They may be ignorant about their situation.
Cat Ladies documentary

The 2009 documentary Cat Ladies tells the stories of four women whose lives have become dedicated to their cats. The film was directed by Christie Callan-Jones and produced by Chocolate Box Entertainment, originally for TVOntario. It was an official selection at the 2009 Hot Docs Festival, Silverdocs Festival, and San Francisco's DocFest.[4][5]

Naftali Berrill, Ph.D., Director of the New York Center for Neuropsychology and Forensic Behavioral Science told AOL Health, "These may be people who have a very hard time expressing themselves to other people. They may find the human need for affection is met most easily through a relationship with a pet." This devotion can sometimes signal mental or emotional issues such as depression.[6]
Crazy Cat Lady Syndrome
Main article: Crazy Cat Lady Syndrome

Recent research indicates a link between the parasite T. gondii, which sexually reproduces exclusively in cats, and numerous psychiatric conditions, including OCD.[7] The compulsive hoarding of cats, a symptom of obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), has long been associated with "crazy cat ladies".[8] Mass media has drawn on this stereotype to coin the term Crazy Cat Lady Syndrome to refer to the association between T. gondii and psychiatric conditions.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_lady

[treestar]

92. Were you around in the 80s for the "man shortage"

The media loved to tell us about this and how our chances of getting married got lower every year. Presumably women are single because there's no man for them to marry.

After 35, we were more likely to be attacked by a terrorist. That one went away after 911 as that made such a statement no longer a funny joke.

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. At birth, there are far more boys than girls.

They die off through disease, suicide, abuse, violence, neglect and accident far more often than their female peers.

To the extent that elderly women find the boyfriend pickings slim, it's because the guys are all dead.

[treestar]

98. The "man shortage" started at age 25

According to the media. Got worse every year. The reason? Men wanted their wife to be younger than they. And that, of course, mattered more than what women wanted.

[cali]

72. All men don't think alike. Not even close.

[steve2470]

100. so true

Some of us are truly nice guy feminists, and others are straight out of the 1950's, the worst of it. The rest are on the spectrum somewhere.

[Hippo_Tron]

73. I think I'd be a lot happier with the whole thing if we didn't live in a patriarchal society

I think that when you have a culture that teaches men that they're failures if they don't get laid and tells women that they can't sleep with too many men lest they be labeled a slut, you're just setting people up for a whole lot of unnecessary misery.

[IronLionZion]

74. I like both a lot!

[liberal N proud]

76. Does anyone really know HOW the mind thinks?

We are programmed by nature and by culture, we are a product of our surroundings and our past, this all effects how we think about women and about sex.

Whatever you do, don't ask what men think about women and sex.

[H2O Man]

77. Curious question.

As life is an on-going process, it would seem likely that what men think changes over the years. My opinions on women and sex are very different today, than in 1974, for example.

The biggest factor for me has been raising two daughters. It's similar to raising my two sons, but distinct in many ways.

My "best friend" these days is a young lady who I refer to as my Yoko Only. I would rather talk to her, than have sex with anyone else. Just going for walks with her, holding hands, and/or sitting out by my pond watching a fire, is far more fulfilling than any other experiences in relationships I've had .....except for having babies, which is unto itself.

The only thing I'll say about sex is that -- very different from my youth -- I have nodesire to engage in sex with anyone that I'm not in love with.

[MadrasT]

78. "Men" do not have one hive mind. There are as many ways for "men" to think about

women and sex as there are "men".

Same goes for women. There is no "woman" way to view things.

ALL PEOPLE ARE UNIQUE INDIVIDUALS.

God I hate these broad brush, rigidly binary gender buckets.

[MineralMan]

79. Which men? Your premise supposes that all men think

the same way. I can assure you that is not true.

[fried eggs]

134. I wasn't asking for someone to speak for everyone else

Simply put, when men are speaking their "truths" as they see it, I want to hear it. I don't want to shut it down. I want to learn as much as I can in the rare moments of complete honesty.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

80. Sex?

Something I engaged in a few dozen times, a decade or two back. Ranks pretty far below eating, drinking, and even gardening.

I probably would enjoy trying again, but it's simply not worth committing time and effort needed for something so transitory.

People wanting to use it as a 'reward' for 'good behaviour', rather than just something nice you do to make someone you like happy is off-putting as well.

I'll stick to caffeine and chocolate for my endorphins.

[devils chaplain]

93. I believe women own their own bodies (and men their own as well) and whatever they choose to do...

With it is their own prerogative -- and none of my damn business or anyone else's.

[steve2470]

99. it's a complex thing

This is really only suitable for a personal discussion. We men, in general, can be assholes, for sure. Women, in general, aren't perfect either. Men really need to seek out women who are real feminists. Here in the South, you can't take for granted that a specific woman is a feminist. Feminists are men's allies. For real. At age 55 I know this, and have known this for quite a while.

I'd seek out private discussions. The internet is pretty infamous for the worst in humanity.

[daleanime]

102. Huh? I'm a single guy, so all I can say is...

I hope their enjoying it. There seems to be a serious shortage of happiness in this world.

[riqster]

104. Well, I am probably not the most typical male in the world, but...

I am a brutally honest old fart who learned (the hard way) that casual sex, polyamory, and bog-standard relationships aren't good for me. I thrive in relationships that include lots of communication, no hints, and straightforwardness. And yes, sex, to the extent I and my partner are physically able.

I don't see the "women and sex" question as central, though. To me, we all can do no better for ourselves and others than to get our own shit together. If we focus on being the best, happiest, most balanced people we can be, then a relationship just serves to enhance what we have already created.

I'd rather be alone than in an unhealthy relationship, sex or no sex. I liked the beginning of Plato's Republic, where one old bonze rejoiced in his age-induced disinterest in sex: not there yet, but I can see why he felt that way. Sex and intimacy are wonderful, but for me they require openness, honesty, and being vulnerable in a way that men of my age were taught not to be. So it takes work. Worth it, but still.

I am very happy in my marriage, not least because I don't need the marriage to be happy. And my wife is my partner, who is strong where I am weak (and vice versa). Misogyny is a total, steaming load of polecat bollocks as far as I am concerned: I am attracted to strong, smart women who have something to teach me.

Kind of a rambling response, but it's been a long day. Take what you like and leave the rest. And thanks for the thread.

[seabeyond]

106. men. i really enjoyed reading a lot of what was being said in this thread.

excellent stuff. a pleasure

[dogknob]

114. Go to an AA Men's stag meeting in drag

Preferably one with a couple of old-timers.

It's the best peek at the Bro playbook you're gonna get for free.

[Puzzledtraveller]

120. I love.

I love the person I fall in love with. I have only known reciprocated love and affection.

[whistler162]

130. I believe this holds true for all...

http://www.jainworld.com/literature/story25.htm

"Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant."

[yellowcanine]

136. I am in favor of both.