Question about cell phones in airplanes:

[dixiegrrrrl]

In the current movie Non-stop, the plot revolves around a cross Atlantic plane trip, with several people using cell phones to text each other on the plane, for hours, and our hero making/getting calls from TSA on a wall phone on the plane.

Is the technology accurate for this premise?
How are cell calls sent and received over the ocean from a plane going 400 mph.?

[msongs]

1. in a perfect world nobody will be allowed to blabber on a cell phone in an airliner :-) nt

[MANative]

2. AFAIK, only if they're flying at under 10,000 feet. Cell tower signals don't reach beyond that.

If memory serves, the seat-back phones they used to use worked on satellite technology. You could theoretically text back and forth if you were using a wifi-powered system like Text+ and the plane were equipped with wifi capability. That's pretty common today. As far as the wall-phone thing, those are connected through the cockpit via an internal system.

[quinnox]

3. No, this is actually a very interesting topic, as it goes back to 9/11

As there were supposedly many passengers in the planes who were able to get cell calls through on that day, amazingly. It was a miracle. Despite the odds being something like 1% of making a successful cell call from a plane at the time, with that day's technology.

I am not up to date if they have improved the technology, but I imagine it would still be very difficult.

[dixiegrrrrl]

9. Yeah, memories of 9-11 is what prompted me to ask.

Plus the talk of soon to be cell phone functionality on planes.

[OnyxCollie]

11. Since the NSA was collecting everyone's phone calls prior to 9/11,

and if it was known what planes the hijackers were going to take, a database of phrases could have been collected from passengers who would be on those flights.

Splice and dice the phrases to say whatever you want.

[TexasProgresive]

14. It has never been determined if those calls were from cell phones or

from airfones. Airfones are a completely different technology. For cell phones to work well at 30,000 feet would require some kind of onboard mini cell site that uses technology similar to airfone to make connections on the ground. As far as cell service at all all over oceans-no bars.
There were several threads discussing cell use in airplanes following the Malaysian disappearance.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024678195

[quinnox]

17. Not going to get into this, as this isn't the proper place, but here are two links about the

controversy, one from a more skeptical point of view, one from a alternative point of view. The FBI did say there were at least two calls made from the planes from cell phones. Those interested can read further on the topic by going to these links.


The skeptical view - "Examining the distribution of the phone calls on the flights commandeered on 9/11/01 reveals an interesting pattern. There are reports of phone calls from thirteen Flight 93 passengers, but only one to three from passengers on any of the other flights. If passengers on Flight 93 were able to complete so many cell phone calls, why were they so rare on the other flights? Presumably the teams of four or five hijackers would have been too busy flying the airplanes to police passengers. The airphone calls attributed to Flight 11 attendants Betty Ong and Madeline Sweeney both went on for a number of minutes.

Some researchers have noted that the reported contents of some of the phone conversations suggest that the calls were not really from victims on the planes. Two of the more oft-cited examples are the calls attributed to Barbara Olson and Madeline Sweeney.

In one of two calls Ted Olson said he received from his wife on Flight 77, she reportedly asked "What should I tell the pilot?," referring to Chic Burlingame, the captain, who was then supposedly seated in the rear with Barbara. Burlingame was a graduate of Naval Academy and flew F-4s in Vietnam. How could Burlingame have been persuaded to hand over the stick and agree to sit in the back of the plane -- especially when controllers had been broadcasting to pilots that Flight 11 had been hijacked?
Madeline Sweeney, who called her supervisor from Flight 11, reportedly stated: "I see, buildings, water, ... Oh my God!", immediately before the crash. Why would Sweeney -- a Massachusetts-based flight attendant of 12 years -- speak as though she had never seen the Manhattan skyline before? (Part of the answer may be that the account is an incomplete paraphrase. The 9-11 Commission Report relates the three final statements by Sweeney's as: "Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent... we are all over the place"; "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low"; and "Oh my God we are way too low".) 1

Some researchers have asserted that several of the phone calls attributed to Flight 93 passengers must have been faked because they were reportedly made from cell phones, which, according to the theory, aren't possible from high-flying aircraft. This theory is controversial because it holds that call recipients who believed they had spoken with family members had been duped, is based on questionable conclusions about cell phone functioning, and overlooks an alternative hypothesis that explains the alleged oddity.

Canadian writer A.K. Dewdney built his reputation as a 9/11 researcher on the idea that the cell-phone calls from aircraft above a few thousand feet aren't generally possible, and therefore the calls attributed to Flight 93 passengers were faked. In an article entitled Ghost Riders in the Sky, Dewdney gives expert-sounding explanations of reasons cell phone calls from jetliners wouldn't work. At altitude, he states, the signal would be too weak, and below 10,000 feet, calls made from a jet would cause problematic "cascades" in networks of cellsites on the ground. (Dewdney cites "Frazer 2002" for this.)

Contrary to Dewdney's findings, we have received reports that cell phones do work from aircraft. Other evidence that cell phone calls are possible from jetliners in flight comes from a study by Carnegie Mellon researchers that monitored spectrum frequencies generated by cell phone transmissions during commercial passenger flights. They found that an average of one to four cell phone calls are made during a typical flight. 2 It may be, however, that such calls are not made at high altitudes.

In an apparent tacit acknowledgement of the difficulty of making cell phone calls from a jetliner at altitude, the FBI's 2006 report describing phone calls from Flight 93 explicitly attributes only two calls to cell phones, both of which occurred late in the flight when the plane's altitude was low.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/phonecalls.html

An alternative view, that it was essentially impossible for any cell calls to be made:

"If the hijackings of September 11 were staged, the organization responsible would also be sure to add other elements to the basic plan, not only developing lists of hijackers, but sending fake cellphone calls from some of the passengers. The following analysis focuses on Flight 93, from which more alleged cellphone calls were made than from the other three flights combined. It could be called the “Cellphone Flight.” Like the staged attacks themselves, the calling operation would be complex, involving the a) deployment of voice mimicry techniques, b) gathering personal intelligence on at least some of the passengers, c) coordination of calls with the operation’s timeline.

1. Background

Any analysis of the cellphone and “airfone” calls from Flight 93 must begin with some basic, high-altitude cellphone facts. According to AT&T spokesperson Alexa Graf, cellphones are not designed for calls from the high altitudes at which most airliners normally operate. It was, in her opinion, a “fluke” that so many calls reached their destinations. In the opinion of a colleague of mine who has worked in the cellphone industry, it was a “miracle” that any of the calls got through from altitude. (See the recent proposal to install equipment to make cellphone calls possible from aircraft.) An aircraft, having a metal skin and fuselage, acts like a Faraday cage, tending to block or attenuate electromagnetic radiation. One can make a cellphone call from inside an aircraft while on the ground because the weakened signal is still close enough to the nearest cellsite (relay tower) to get picked up. Once above 10,000 feet, however, calls rarely get through, if ever.

Here is the statement of an experienced airline pilot: “The idea of being able to use a cellphone while flying is completely impractical. Once through about 10,000 feet, the thing is useless, since you are too high and moving too fast (and thus changing cells too rapidly) for the phone to provide a signal.” (AVWeb, 1999)

People boarding aircraft for the last decade or so have all heard the warnings to turn off their cellphones for the duration of the flight. The reasons for this regulation are somewhat mysterious, since the usual explanation, that delicate aircraft electronics might be affected by cellphone signals, is cast somewhat in doubt by the fact that all avionics are shielded from stray electromagnetic radiation. (Spitzer 1987) On the other hand, the FCC had apparently requested that airlines make this rule, owing to the tendency for cell phone calls made from aircraft at lower altitudes to create “cascades” that may lead to breakdown of cellsite operations. (Fraizer 2002)

As I have pointed out elsewhere, cellphone calls from commercial aircraft much over 8000 feet are essentially impossible, while those below 8000 feet are highly unlikely down to about 2000, where they become merely unlikely. (Dewdney 2003) Moreover, even at the latter altitude (and below), the handoff problem appears. Any airliner at or below this altitude, flying at the normal speed of approximately 500 mph, would encounter the handoff problem (Dewdney 2003). An aircraft traveling at this speed would not be over the cellsite long enough to complete the electronic “handshake” (which takes several seconds to complete) before arriving over the next cellsite, when the call has to be handed off from the first cellsite to the next one. This also takes a few seconds, the result being, in the optimal case, a series of broken transmissions that must end, sooner or later, in failure.

It must also be remarked that the alleged hijackers of the Cellphone Flight were remarkably lenient with their passengers, allowing some 13 calls. However, it would seem highly unlikely that hijackers would allow any phone calls for the simple reason that passengers could relay valuable positional and other information useful to authorities on the ground, thus putting the whole mission in jeopardy.

http://physics911.net/cellphoneflight93/

[Jenoch]

22. I think the likely reason the passengers

were able to make cell phone calls from the airplanes is because cellular service was mostly, if not all, analog back then. Digital cell phone signals do not travel nearly as far as do analog. The same thing goes for television signals, the old vhf television signal had a much larger coverage area than do the digital signals broadcast today.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. They can't...

there is no current technology to allow cellphones to work inflight, and the FCC won't allow it yet anyway.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

Maybe, just maybe, you could get a satellite phone to work, and maybe some phones could text direct through Bluetooth, but it's still just a movie.

[jberryhill]

30. Yes there is, and several foreign carriers do

[TreasonousBastard]

32. You're right, sort of, Aeromobile and one or two others can do it, but...

it means fitting the plane with special technology and only a few airlines have it..

Unless something happened recently, you can't just turn on your cell phone on any old airplane at 50,000 feet.

[onehandle]

5. Virgin Atlantic, Emirates and others have satellite connections on Transatlantic flights.

Allowing a limited number of passengers to make cell phone calls, text etc.

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. There WAS a bit in the movie about the pilot being able to turn wi-fi on and off.

The other bit in the movie was ????? also. The flight is a British airways, the pilots and flight attendants are all Brits ( accents),
the plane is flying to London from NY.
but the hero is a US Air Marshall, who gets his orders from TSA.

[rickford66]

6. My wife and I made a satellite call over the Pacific in the late 1980's.

We were on United, New Zealand to the US. Just needed a credit card. If I remember correctly, it also took phone cards. We just dialed the international phone number. I doubt cell phones can work at cruise altitude. Maybe the guy in the movie is using a satellite phone?

[dixiegrrrrl]

8. Movie goes to great pains to point out

everyone is using cell phones. LOTS of passengers using cell phones.
The Wi-fi is supposedly present and on, and it does make sense if it comes from satellites.

[rickford66]

10. And they all know each other's phone numbers?

From the posts I "assumed" the texting back and forth was secretive.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. In the movie, the bad guy (s) text the hero.

who of course texts back.
but also in the movie, there is a plot line of him trying to figure out who on the plane is sending him the texts, and we see many passengers using their cell phones, in texting mode.
Interestingly, no one is actually talkig on their cell, only texting.

[jberryhill]

31. Where there is wifi there is "phone service"

[OnyxCollie]

12. Glenn Greenwald mentioned phone calls on flights.

He said that was the last place that was safe from the NSA spying, until recently, IIRC.

[dickthegrouch]

33. But the other end is being monitored too

I've often mused on how one can possibly make anonymous tip calls to the police or others any longer. It can't be done.

I heard a radio news story just yesterday where they gave the phone number and e-mail address where 'anonymous tips' could be left. How stupid do they think we are?

[dickthegrouch]

13. You can probably use skype over wifi to make calls

However the FAA has not yet allowed any transmitters to be turned on inside a plane that has its doors closed. Anybody transmitting anything once the doors are closed is committing a federal offense if I understand things correctly. That they blithely continue to do so (and, presumably, put everyone aboard (and in the flight path) at risk of a crash) is just as incomprehensible to me as a mass-murdering gunman. The families/companies of the people whose phone call causes such a crash should be treated just like one of those mass-murdering gunmen and sued out of existence by the families of everyone else hurt by the ensuing crash.

[TexasProgresive]

16. That would still require the phone connecting to a cell site.

I posted that it may be possible to set up a local wifi network between the phones on the plane. This would allow communications between phones but not to the outside world.

[dixiegrrrrl]

19. Another question arises...

Does our FAA have jurisdiction over European airlines and flights outside of the US?

Some of the comments in this thread suggest non-UScarriers may have different rules/poicies/technology about cell phones.

[MannyGoldstein]

26. It won't cause a crash.

Tiny signals on specific bands reserved for that purpose. I'm quite certain that aircraft instruments are tested to ensure immunity at those frequencies.

[TexasProgresive]

15. Even if cell service doesn't work I think

that passengers could text one another by using wifi or even maybe bluetooth.

[rickford66]

20. Wouldn't the wifi have to connect to a server someplace?

I doubt if there'd be one on the aircraft. Bluetooth alone "talks" between phones? I thought Bluetooth was used for wireless connections for devices to your phone or pc for very short distances, maybe inches.

[TexasProgresive]

21. WIFI is a wireless network that connects computers to one another or a router

It does not connect directly to the internet. I you use a phone as a hot spot to surf the net the phone makes the internet connection and your laptop or whatever makes a WIFI connection to the phone.

I had a limited WIFI network in my house that allowed me to print wirelessly.

I'm not sure how hard it would be to set up a local WIFI network using only cell phones. I bet it can be done.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

23. I wonder if someone could use a smart phone to hack into the planes computer,

and take over the controls and fly the plane from the economy section?

[rickford66]

24. NO

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. Now that commercial planes depend more and more on puters...

( and drones and other military stuff)

sooner or later I expect hackers to get into the systems at one level or the other.

[rickford66]

29. They aren't like your laptop.

I've simulated, integrated and stimulated a number of suites of avionics on simulators for commercial jets, bizjets and military aircraft. I've had access to the code for debugging. I've also worked on their design for real aircraft for a limited time. They use radios, gyros and GPS for navigation. Those are the main inputs to present day flight computers that tell it where it is. One would have to physically reprogram it through the keyboard on the pedestal or load it by disc through the data loader. Drones are radio controlled and are probably subject to hacking. Interfering with the GPS (pretty tough) or radio signals would send warnings to the flight crew and other crews in the area. The gyros (inertial navigation systems) are self contained, mechanical or LASER.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. If they're dumb enough to use a giant lithium ion battery,

then all bets are off on cybersecurity.

[brooklynite]

28. Simple answer: no

Regardless of the altitude, there would be no cell towers that the phones could access over the Atlantic Ocean. Only way this works is if everyone has satellite phones.