Yes, really, all men

[Recursion]

Yes, all men.

My dad was a great man. He taught me to seek rather than shirk responsibility.

Yes. All men. Real men who deserve the name acknowledge the problem and address it. All men. You, me, everyone.

[Major Nikon]

1. What problem do you wish acknowledged?

And beyond talking about it, what do you propose to do to address it?

[nomorenomore08]

3. How about just trying to be a decent human, and encouraging others to do the same?

I have no specific solutions beyond that, to be honest.

[Major Nikon]

4. Sounds pretty reasonable

What I will not do is accept responsibility for something I didn't do, participate in, or encourage others to do. Doesn't sound like being a "real man" to me.

[Recursion]

5. Does it not?

Interesting.

[joeglow3]

7. No, it doesn't. I didn't do anything either.

[el_bryanto]

6. do you acknowledge how the current system might privilege one group over another? nt

[Major Nikon]

9. Can you think of any two distinct groups with one or both NOT privileged in one way or another?

[el_bryanto]

10. Hey good point - everybody does it.

But if you acknowledge that you receive privileges based on your gender that gives you a step up in recognizing how those privileges might harm other people. You can see that things proceed justly; as it is difficult to work towards fixing a problem you don't see.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

13. my son was outraged yesterday. pissed cause a retailer challenged them or implied, suggested

that he stole a little flag he was putting on car. it was a thrift store. he had gotten it at another store. and was missing with it in the parking lot when the owner came out all blustering.

son said, just cause he was a teenager the man accused him of theft.

i agreed. i told him that blacks experience it a zilion times worse. and that was just it. cause he was a teen.... only cause he was a teen.

did it take anything away from me as an adult to validate my sons feeling, legitimate feeling of unfairness that cause he was a teen he was treated poorly?

nope.

as a matter of fact, it was a lesson in empathy for the boy.

[el_bryanto]

24. That seems like a good teaching moment.

I remember the first time I was accused of shoplifting - was wearing a trenchcoat, so I think that marked me out as a criminal (when in reality I just had an overly romantic view of the 1930s Gangster/Detective movies).

Bryant

[seabeyond]

26. yes. the trench coat, lol. and yes. an awesome moment for awareness, thought and consideration.

as i have said a zillion times and one. this is really not that hard. and assuredly, totally painless. lol. really

[el_bryanto]

28. It's not hard if handled in that way

I wish I had encountered it that way, rather than the way I did encounter it. I might have caught on a lot quicker.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

31. and my oldest son, about 8th grade, discussing the same, saying....

he was the one being bigoted against cause he was white male.

because you see. the person that was the teacher, in a learnable moment, was not that ... oh, what? gentle? easy? i dunno.

and i told that son. that we have a responsibility to look from the others eyes. and yes. maybe that person is angry. and MAYBE we can understand that anger. cause when i have a man create a rape porn scenario for ME,.... that makes me angry. i may not be as gentle, easy.... whatever.

so. maybe, we can be a bit patient, when an oppressed is angry.

again.

i do not feel, and i refuse to allow it to be, hard. easy works better for me.

and i feel those around me i love so.

[el_bryanto]

34. That's the key word there - love - if you are starting from a place of love it's much easier

to get the point across. If you are being presented this idea by someone who cares about you, than you don't end up spending nearly as much time on the "but I'm not a bad person" phase of the discussion.

I came across it in college with some pretty nice people for the most part, but very competitive and a bit insecure (as tends to happen to college students (certainly it was that way with me)); it's hard to analyze a conversation that took place many years ago, but I suspect the point was not to educate or to help someone you love learn; the point was to "win" the argument. There's few things a college student likes more than seizing the moral high ground.

But water under the bridge; i've certainly learned a lot since then.

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

16. Both genders receive privileges based on their gender

Which is unlike other privileged bases which have a distinct shit end of the stick with few or no privileges associated with being on that end. Those who spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on gender privilege don't seem to spend as much time acknowledging the privilege associated with the other side of that coin or all the other privileges associated with everything else. One should always promote equality in opportunity in all things, but that has a lot more to do with being a 'real human' and less about being a 'real man'.

[el_bryanto]

20. Well that's to a certain extent true

In individual situations women or minorities might receive some small privileges not available to white males. Such situations are however trivial when you compare it to, say, hiring practices or assumptions made about individuals.

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

22. Being white also privileges females, sometimes even more so

Living 5 years longer, having the greatest educational attainment, and facing the least chance of being profiled by the cops comes to mind as just a few examples, which ironically are some of the exact same lack of privileges associated with being non-white and don't seem so trivial in that context.

[el_bryanto]

25. Well that's nice - I'm sure that's of great comfort when they are paid 81% of their male colleagues

or when they are turned away from a job because "they just wouldn't fit in."

Bryant

[Starry Messenger]

35. Just wait, he has a theory that covers that one too.

Bank it.

[Major Nikon]

40. So does Obama

The earnings gap between women and men has narrowed over time, but it remains. Among full-time wage and salary workers, women’s weekly earnings as a percent of men’s have increased from 62 percent in 1979 to 80 percent in 2009.

This comparison of earnings is on a broad level and does not control for many factors that can be significant in explaining or further highlighting earnings differences.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/Women_in_America.pdf

[Major Nikon]

39. The raw gender wage gap exists on a macro level, not on an individual level

The earnings gap between women and men has narrowed over time, but it remains. Among full-time wage and salary workers, women’s weekly earnings as a percent of men’s have increased from 62 percent in 1979 to 80 percent in 2009. This comparison of earnings is on a broad level and does not control for many factors that can be significant in explaining or further highlighting earnings differences.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/Women_in_America.pdf

The Gender Wage Gap Lie
You know that “women make 77 cents to every man’s dollar” line you’ve heard a hundred times? It’s not true.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

[el_bryanto]

41. That article from slate is kind of crap isn't it?

It acknowledges that woman make less then men - 87% or 91% (the 91% comes from cutting out union jobs, which seems like an odd choice to me) - but then blames the women for making less then men.

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

42. You mean kinda like the AAUW (a feminist organization)

Although women cannot avoid the pay gap completely, they can make choices that enhance their earning potential. A critical first step is paying attention to the salaries associated with college majors and occupations and understanding the long-term financial implications of those decisions. Women can also seek out union jobs and negotiate salary offers to improve their earnings. Taken together, these individual choices can help close the pay gap.

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

[el_bryanto]

43. Yes - but the tone of that is somewhat different

Obviously you should seek out the best job possible, and take steps to do so - that doesn't mean though that there aren't pay disparities between men and women doing the same work.

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

44. There certainly are pay disparities between different genders doing the same work

That's why we have civil rights laws and means of redress for people in that situation. But the claim that the 20% raw difference between weekly earnings can be attributed to pay disparities between men and women doing the same work is wrong and misleading.

[el_bryanto]

45. You do seem dedicated to the proposition that women are largely to blame for the situation

Is that accurate? or am I misreading you?

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

46. I'm more interested in facts than blame

There are many factors which attribute to the pay gap. Most of those involve family obligations and spending more time in non-income generating activities. So do I blame women for choosing to spend more time taking care of the family as opposed to punching a time clock? Absolutely not. To do so would undervalue women for something I believe has a very high value, arguably more so than income generating activities.

[seabeyond]

27. yes. women get men paying for their dinner. and ya know. for three decades i have been saying....

jsut say no. i taught my sons, the reason in the past and why now it should be no more. progression. and ya know.... his generation is working it out.

so fuggin hard.....

[nomorenomore08]

14. We all have to accept some form of responsibility for the world around us.

Gender equality is only one potential issue of many to focus on.

[Major Nikon]

17. Certainly there are dues to be paid for living in a civilized society

And all of us do actually contribute to many of the ills of society to one degree or another. None of this is unique to men.

[nomorenomore08]

18. "None of this is unique to men." No, it certainly isn't. n/t

[bettyellen]

32. but gaping by the side lines is all good, yep. and heckling people- that helps.

derail derail derail.

[rock]

2. Indeed, you have gone to great length to address the subject

Now, how about a verb (or even a full predicate)?

[bearssoapbox]

8. Let the pitnickers be damned.

Post what you feel.

(As long as it doesn't violate TOS)

I liked the post.

[Borchkins]

11. My dad is like yours.

He raised one just like him, my brother. I married another one just like him. I am raising two more. I wish it was enough.
B

[pintobean]

12. Man up?

Nice.

It would be great to know what you're talking about.

[sorefeet]

15. How true Recusion

Honesty is what real men do. If there is a problem they fix it, now. Real men don't shirk a problem no matter who's it is. It is my responsibility to help who ever needs it.

[bloom]

19. I don't think you get it. n/t

[sorefeet]

21. Funny how some get it

and it goes right over the heads of the rest.

[Silent3]

23. Isn't the use of phrases like "real men" part of the problem?

As if taking responsibility is a particularly manly trait, rather than simply a good trait for any adult human, a trait that's neither especially masculine or feminine in character?

Do men hold an extra degree of responsibility for the way other men behave? If so, is it more or less than any extra responsibility that redheads should assume for the way other redheads behave?

[seabeyond]

30. i like this. ask for a definition of manhood and i would suggest,

it is ALL that i am too. you know. the good stuff

honorable, strong, responsible, caring, balanced, .... yada yada.

me too.

what is in the "manhood" and lord tell me what "feminine" is cause i am lost on that one.

now, i do believe that it is important for me to speak up, as a woman, with issue women need to address with ourselves. i do believe that as a woman, i have a job... a responsibility, and ya, maybe even greater than the injured party.

[Bonx]

37. Real men = True Scotsman

[Major Nikon]

47. Not to mention sexist

Imagine the reception if someone started a thread schooling all females in what they should be doing to be a "real woman".

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. Yes, all men. The issue that separates the men from the boys. All MEN.

[LittleBlue]

33. Acknowledge what?

What is the subject here?

[Puzzledtraveller]

36. could care less about the name

[RobertEarl]

38. All People should be taught the same

To accept responsibility.

It is taught in society as a whole, but individuals can be bad examples of the practice.

Basic animal instinct has a responsibility code that is, through life, reinforced by mothers, fathers and then society as the animal grows older.

Male animals are expected to perform in a certain manner. Alpha males act first on instinct, while exhibiting what they have learned in order to hold the position.

The best alpha males are those that know the code and practice responsibility for the family.