Why Is It So Hard For People to Get That Elliott Rodger Hated Women?

[PeaceNikki]

Last edited Tue May 27, 2014, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Killers before Elliott Rodger have left behind long messages detailing their grievances, but his had a rare clarity. He hated women. He wanted to kill them. He set out this past Friday evening to do just that. You might think in terms of commentary on his motives, that would be The End.

Yet people all over my social media feeds and yours have been arguing about his motives pretty much since the discovery of that video of him testifying to what motivated him on Saturday. Something about Rodger's directness has set everyone off. It was like a bomb.

Initially much of the internet filled with commentary on the obvious and remarkably literal misogyny that animated the killings. But the wave of doubters followed, in the form of people who seem to think that mental-health issues on the part of a killer automatically make his rhetoric meaningless. A psychology professor writes in a column at TIME, for example, that he doesn't think what he calls "cultural misogyny" is at play here, adding:

We have an unfortunate trend when mass shootings occur to focus on idiosyncratic elements as potential causes.

The only response I can offer is that idiosyncrasy, here, seems to be in the eye of the beholder.

http://gawker.com/why-is-it-so-hard-for-people-to-get-that-elliott-rodger-1582030975

Amen, Gawker. Amen


ETA: Please read the whole piece linked.

And thanks.

[Xipe Totec]

1. I think the argument is more about why than what. nt

[big_dog]

105. the why is more than likely meglomania

Rodger appeared to view himself as something of an incel revolutionary. In November, Rodger reacted angrily to another user who suggested that lucid dreaming might be an acceptable stand-in for sex. “If all incels were to start getting sedated by lucid dreaming, incels will become docile and there will be no revolution,” he wrote. Instead, Rodger wrote that incels must go on offense: “If we can’t solve our problems we must DESTROY our problems.” He concluded with a call to arms against women: One day incels will realize their true strength and numbers, and will overthrow this oppressive feminist system. Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.

Rodger had a similar reaction a month earlier in October when a user suggested virtual reality as an outlet for incels: “No… this is a dark future for incels. It will only keep them sedated and prevent the revolution that needs to happen.”
In January, another frequent PuaHate user – “The Purifier” – argued that “Incels should go on strike” with the aim of an “Incel Revolution against women and feminism”:

All Incels should go on strike for a few days, our first blow against a society that oppresses us. Women treat us like we are a waste of space, that we are unworthy. Society thinks you are scum, so stop contributing to it by working your shitty, mundane, slave-like jobs. Go on strike until the world gives some recognition to our plight.
This will be a first, incremental step towards the full on Incel Revolution against women and feminism.
Another user quickly responded to say that the “majority of incels are most likely high inhibition so this would never happen.” Rodger chided that user, asking “Why are you so pessimistic?”

Rodger, who wrote in April 2013 on PuaHate that “Revenge is something to live for,” was apparently committed to bringing about this revolution
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/shooting-suspect-elliot-rodgers-misogynistic-posts-point-to-motive/

[Xipe Totec]

114. That's one of the assessments

One I happen to agree with, but there is a spectrum of opinions. Some of them sui generis.

[pnwmom]

154. The why is more likely related to paranoid schizophrenia, the first symptoms of which

involve poor social cognition and could have been easily mistaken for autism-- which no doctor ever diagnosed him with, by the way. His parents just suspected that's what was wrong with him.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/paranoid-schizophrenia/basics/symptoms/con-20029040

Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:

Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you
Anxiety
Anger
Emotional distance
Violence
Argumentativeness
Self-important or condescending manner
Suicidal thoughts and behavior
With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms

Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may make ongoing criticisms of what you're thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.

[bettyellen]

248. I did not know, but had suspected that about early symptoms.

oh shit.

[bloom]

261. Added to that (schizophrenia symptoms)....

there are also effects of being out on one's own - as in leaving the security of home and going to college that can be triggering for people with aspergers or schizophrenia. There is a lot of stress involved that they are unable to cope with.

That combined with obsessing on social media hate sites (more or less) as a way of relieving stress, as opposed to learning to be with people, clearly added to the poisonous mindset of Elliot Rodgers.

[seabeyond]

262. and this is why i have monitored my oldest this last year. you are right on, with all those counts.

and i have made sure on a regular basis to have communications whether a quick touching base, letting him know i am always there when he needs to talk for hours to get it all out and get grounded, or the hours long calls so he can get it all out, and get grounded. and always cluing me in to where he is in life.

this was my concern with this son. and with who he is, ... developing schizo has been a consideration and something i have read up on and researched, so i can be aware.

i found out not but a couple months ago, that son... in all his brilliance and insight, can see himself developing this also. and he too has read up on it. he has even implemented a course of action if he does develop it.... and how to live life with it.

totally amazing kid

[pnwmom]

264. It's not an easy thing to keep the lines of communication open at a distance.

Good for you, seabeyond.

[seabeyond]

265. i was blessed (do not like tho use that word) lucky, .... htat son talks. and talks and talks and

talks. lol

so when i tell me i do not believe that they innately cannot talk or feel. i call bullshit.

his middle school principal was telling me how lucky i was that my son talks so much. and shares so much. while i was compaining about how much he talks. lol.

i have always enjoyed and valued, .... but, she made me just that much more aware. yes. middle scool i was watching for suicide. first girlfriend break up, the same. and the obsessiveness.

jealously, control, dominance. cause he has an ego. lol.

i can look at this young man. and get it.

other son, totally different.

it is interesting.

[snooper2]

2. He hated everybody because he was so fucking awesome and NOBODY saw that in him

[PeaceNikki]

4. he was a misogynist, first and foremost.

Again, it was clear.

If his manifesto focused on Jews, we'd all agree he was an anti-Semite. African Americans, we'd quickly and easily call him a racist. Why, oh, why are some people arguing against him being driven by misogyny?!

It's OK. You can say it. He was a misogynist. Not all men are, but he was. And it drove him to massacre people.

[noiretextatique]

8. because hating womein is acceptable?

perhaps even normal?

[Borchkins]

12. yes, yes, yes,

he was a misogynist and it drove him to massacre people.

B

[winter is coming]

16. No, he was a malignant narcissist, first and foremost. He was definitely a misogynist, but I see

that as the expression, not the origin, of his hatred. And you're wrong to assume I'd say differently if his manifesto had been anti-Semitic or racist. This guy appears to have been seriously messed up, basically for all of his life. Misogyny was his poison of choice and definitely nurtured his rage, but it didn't cause it.

[PeaceNikki]

18. mmm hmmm.

[winter is coming]

21. Well, that was substantive.

I take it you believe that there was nothing going on with Rodger except misogyny? That if misogyny didn't exist, he never would have gone on a killing spree?

[Major Nikon]

41. Somehow I don't think you'll get an answer

Furthermore if we are to believe that others are responsible by proxy for his crazed acts, then we must believe that the radical feminists who encouraged Valerie Solanas' man hate must be equally responsible for her crazed acts of violence, not to mention those (including some DUers) who link to sites that gleefully publish her manifesto must be responsible for any future crazed acts of violence based on gender.

Gander meet goose.

[bettyellen]

61. Let's keep a tally on the "crazed acts of violence based on gender" you're so concerned about....

see how that shakes out.

[noiretextatique]

69. indeed

that talky is VERY high.

[bettyellen]

97. well one crazy lady talked about killing the menz 40 years ago, and since then.....

nada. But boy they love to trot her out as if it is meaningful.

[deurbano]

74. No blow! Geez...

[Major Nikon]

78. I'm so concerned I've started dozens of threads on the subject just in the last few days

[bettyellen]

96. you're so concerned about gender issues, you show up on every single thread to tell women

they don't know what they have seen and experienced their entire lives
they are using the wrong definition of a word with multiple definitions
they actually prefer lower paying jobs and don't care about less opportunity , because: evo psych!

I have not seen you contribute anything aside from attempts as gas-lighting and trying to nip pick discussions into oblivion.

Sorry that women don't historically have a habit of getting violent when a man denies them something, whether it's the many wives and partners that are murdered every year, or these rampages by men like this one. But if we did, I have no doubt you would feel fine posting on it.

What is your obsession with trying to derail the conversation? It's continuing despite your disapproval, and will continue to.

[PeaceNikki]

98. Sing it, sister.

[bettyellen]

99. Tra la fucking laaaaa!

[Major Nikon]

110. Pot/Kettle

My post count compared to those who do and kick them endlessly is a mere pittance. If you think I'm the only one who challenges the perennial peanut gallery, you really should get out more, as they have far more "derailers" than allies. I'm pretty sure those who do post threads ad nauseum on gender subjects in DU do so with the specific intent of inviting dissent just so they can stay on their soapbox. So it's not as if I'm really hampering their efforts and the reverse seems to be considerably closer to reality.

I don't take my marching orders from you and I'll post where and when I feel like it. If people don't like others pointing out the obvious flaws in their reasoning, then they should probably put more effort into them.

Accusing someone of "derailing" the conversation because you don't like what they have to say is intellectually lazy. Given your tone towards me and others I'm not sure you are the best one to be going on about obsessions.

DU is and never has been about preaching to the choir. If that's what you're after and you can't tolerate any dissent to your POV, there are places here just for you.

Just sayin'

[bettyellen]

133. yes, there are about six constantly derailing- we know. we are quite familiar with all of you...

and how you ignore the trash thread button.

[Major Nikon]

189. The same options exist for you

Oddly enough you charge me with some kind of "obsession" and I just can't remember ever initiating a conversation with you(if I ever did it certainly wasn't worth remembering). It's always you replying to me first. The reason being I just don't find your posts all that original. They are either 'what she said' posts or they are attacking someone, which generally takes the form of gross misrepresentations and obvious logical fallacies. At some point reading them simply becomes an exercise in banality. For whatever reason you seem to be a much bigger fan of me than I am of you. You seem to remember just about every post I've made (although you inevitably misrepresent them till hell won't have it), while I can't seem to remember a single original thought you've had. Perhaps they are all over DU, but I just haven't seen them.

However, you do give me an excellent idea. In order to avoid any repeat accusations of "derailing", I'm just not going to feed this monster anymore. If you can't be civil, don't expect a reply from me, and perhaps not even then as I just don't think I'll be clicking on too many of them. So you're just going to have to go entertain yourself with your other 5 playmates you're obsessing over because you've worn this one right the fuck out.

Cheers!

[bettyellen]

192. It's so cute - you trying soo hard to hurt my feelings with insults!

I'd have to care what you think, and clearly- I do not. LOL.

[Jamastiene]

162. That is why the ones who derail these conversations,

complain about the topic even coming up in threads, and come to the threads to tell us to STFU about misogyny, do what they do. They have that same sense of entitlement and think they should be able to dominate us and make us STFU.

The fact that the conversation is continuing despite their disapproval is too much for them. That is why they are obsessing in these threads and will not leave them alone. They cannot stand the fact that the conversation is continuing despite their disapproval. They are not accustomed to that. Usually, they get their way. This time, they are not. It is infuriating for them, much like Rodger. Classic cases of men who think they should control women and decide for women what is right and wrong.

[bettyellen]

198. the logical fallacy robots who think evo-psych is real science?

they funny!

[seabeyond]

204. ah. and then that is what discussionist is for them. they can talk about the mean feminist that

will not shut up....

good post.

[redqueen]

239. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[bettyellen]

254. why, thank you!

It's not like there's alreaady a context for this discussion, or anything like that. This being the net and everything, and us- women.
Naaaaah.

[ismnotwasm]

62. LOL

Yeah bring up Valerie- she shot Andy Warhol, who did live BTW, wrote a scathing satire about men--what 40 years ago? This is congruency in your opinion?

[Major Nikon]

103. Sure, Andy lived

As did the other man she shot and another she threatened to shoot. She shot at Warhol 3 times, hitting him once in his chest which had to be opened and his heart massaged, and he lived with the effects of it for the rest of his days, but you sure got me there.

Yes, I've heard the "satire" apologia before. No less than a brilliant summation of a clinically crazed and violent separatist feminist's terrorist manifesto complete with incoherent ramblings about killing all men and eventually proving she had no reservations about following through with her man hate violent fantasies. Very funny. Haha.

After 40 years you'd have to wonder why misandry apologists the world over still revere her batshit crazy manifesto pretending how brilliant it is. Kinda makes you go, hmmmm.

40 years from now Elliot Rodger will be nothing more than a shitstain in the history books and it's a fair bet nobody is going to be pretending his hateful manifesto is literary brilliance.

[thucythucy]

134. You know, the only time I ever see mention of this woman or her work

is when an MRA type cites it as an example of misandry.

I've been to lots of feminist meetings and events, and she never comes up. Ten years working at a rape crisis center, and not a whisper of a mention. Years spent working with a feminist press, and nary a hint of a shadow of a mention. The only time I see her work quoted is when it's brought up by folks such as yourself, on DU.

People today remember so many other people from forty years ago, or more.

Richard Speck. David Berkowitz. The Boston Strangler.

How about, every time you mention this woman as an avatar of feminism, I mention Richard Speck or David Berkowitz? Or the Boston Strangler? Or Jack the Ripper?

All men. All men who killed women. And all of them arguably far more famous than the woman whose name you and yours keep bringing up.

And all of them about as relevant to this discussion here today.

[bettyellen]

137. Richard Speck. David Berkowitz. The Boston Strangler. Exactly.

Pretending the scales are even is a fucking joke.

[thucythucy]

139. You always say what I mean to say

and in so many less words!

And I'm always happy to see you in a thread.

[bettyellen]

142. I was quoting YOU, my friend. Wonderful post- every word of it!

And likewise @ seeing you, for sure!

[thucythucy]

145. "Pretending the scales are even is a fucking joke."

That is SO good, I am definitely stealing it for later use.

Best wishes!

[bettyellen]

155. what is mine is yours, LOL.

Grab it now before these fuckers hide another post of mine. LOL.

[Major Nikon]

185. Perhaps you just haven't ran across it

There's a web page frequently linked to by some on DU which proudly displays her manifesto, and at least one of the posters here had the link to the site in their sig line for quite a long time until they were called on it. Your first clue should be one of the other responders who referred to the shitsain Solanas' hate filled manifesto as nothing more than a joke. If that didn't do it for you, just set your google to it and you'll find references to all sorts of feminist sites and women's studies departments long before you'll find any MRA references. Imagine the outrage if Elliot Rodger's hate filled manifesto was referred to as a joke and literary genius. I'm pretty sure there would be plenty throwing around the "MRA" mantra over it.

You can mention anyone you want, but I just don't think any of those people are held up as heroes to any degree whatsoever, just as I don't think the shitstain Elliot Rodger will ever be held up as a hero to any large degree.

[thucythucy]

208. Which web page would that be?

Give me a link and I'll see for myself.

Even so, I'll bet that for every feminist web page that features this writing there are a dozen men's rights groups that trot it out as their one, their only, their shining example of evil feminist misandry. Certainly, I can count on it being your general example, good for whatever context. But like I said, it's possible for a mainstream feminist such as myself to go decades without encountering it, aside from folks like you bringing it up. Shouldn't that tell you something?

By contrast, the examples of literary misogyny, not to mention active violence against women by famous, widely respected men, is legion. Norman Mailer wrote that masturbation is worse than rape (and he meant men masturbating and men raping women) and yet I'm sure you'll find people who cite his work, admire his career, treat the comment as little more than a joke. Roman Polanski anally raped a teenaged girl, and I seem to remember people arguing his movies were just so good--no need to "persecute" the man after all these years. Isn't that hero worship, in your book?

And didn't the Rolling Stones write a song about the Boston Strangler? Gleefully singing about how "I'll plunge my knife right down your throat" - which, BTW, is how the Strangler often ended his fits of rape, torture, and mutilation. Hero worship there, much?

And how many video games are out there that reek with misogyny and violence against women? Check out "Dante's Inferno" sometime. Especially the level where the object is to sever a woman's fingers -- repeatedly--they grow back each time they're hacked off, until, of course, you kill her. And yet there are some on DU who defend such games as good clean fun. That isn't some forty year old manifesto by a deranged woman most nobody has ever heard of. It's one of the most popular video games among teenaged boys today. Does THAT bother you at all? A cultural phenomenon, like this latest atrocity, or like the kidnapping of hundreds of school girls, that's happening in the here and now?

So what's your point anyway? Why do you persist in seeking to demonstrate that somehow there is some sort of equivalence between the levels of hatred and violence that men suffer at the hands of women, and that which women suffer at the hands of men?

And do you really believe that misogyny wasn't a factor, indeed the prime factor, in what happened this past week?

And doesn't it mean anything to you, doesn't it tell you something, that the one and only instance you keep referring us to is a woman who wrote and acted more than four decades ago? While women, and girls, have to deal with these atrocities today, yesterday, tomorrow?

Really, what's the point? Why does it bother you so much that people are labeling this hate crime for what it is?

As has been pointed out on this thread and elsewhere, if this guy wrote a hundred forty plus page manifesto expressing his hatred of Jews, and then went into a synagogue with the intent of killing Jewish people, NO ONE would argue it wasn't anti-Semitism--even if some Christians were killed. If someone posted repeated videos about his hatred of people of color, and then shot down black people at random, would anyone say, "Well, but racism wasn't really the main issue?" Even if white people were also killed? Even if he denounced some white men as "race traitors"?

I don't get it. I don't understand why, in the face of this blatant, obvious, egregious, horrific atrocity, your response is to try to argue that a deranged manifesto written decades ago is somehow equivalent, or even relevant, to this discussion.

[seabeyond]

219. way back when, when we were pulling out all kinds of feminists, from forever to recent,

in hof, you know.... history of feminist group, she was pulled up with the article she wrote. and we dared to discuss it. and all hell exploded at the audacity of us discussing the writing and not.... oh, doing hwat the men wanted us to do, say what they wanted us to say. personally, i thought the writing interesting. most of us had not heard of the woman or her writings, or her later actions.

but... we really did not get to tear the writings apart, cause the few took it into a huge battle in meta.

[thucythucy]

227. Thanks for the DU history lesson.

Was there a direct connection between her writing and her violence? By that I mean, was it one of these deals where she wrote her "manifesto" or whatever, knowing she was going to try to kill people? Or did she write some stuff, which may or may not have validity, and then sometime later go off the deep end and commit her crimes?

I should just Google this, and not bug you with it. But I always enjoy our conversations.

Best wishes.

[seabeyond]

229. the second. i believe. that was like three years ago. i need to put her back up in hof.

i believe she was active, then like a decade later (do not quote me on this) she took a shot at an artist? the guy that paints soup cans?

anyway. her writing was very interesting. and we do need to put it back up. and read it again. it was very interesting i thought how she did it.

[seabeyond]

230. actually, i did not even read majors posts. i was answering cause i was reading you gals.

and came to my own conclusions. i think i have it right though. lol

[thucythucy]

232. Thanks again.

I'll check it out sometime, but now I need sleep. Or coffee.

No. Sleep.

Best wishes.

[seabeyond]

233. me, too. nt

[bettyellen]

245. she was trying to get Andy Warhol interested in her writing and angry he wrote her off

I am not sure if she actually ever had a bit part in a film or had any of her written work used prior to that, VS was one of many came to Andy's factory hoping for fame and fortune. He more or less used them saying "Yeah, tha's interesting, wow" so if you were naive, you might think Andy gave a shit or would actually help you.
Mostly he didn't, and wouldn't except to try to appropriate intersting bits to use in his own work. He blew her off, and she just exploded and went after him.

[Major Nikon]

252. If you want me to defend every piece of misogyny ever written you are barking up the wrong tree

I'm not going to link to hate sites. I've already explained what you'll find if you google it, and I just really don't feel like disproving what was your assertion to begin with that you never offered anything more than anecdotal proof.

Both Roger and Solanas were mentally ill. Both wrote a gender hate filled manifesto before they went on a shooting spree. Both sought out like minded individuals before they went on their shooting spree. Yet we are to believe in one instance the manifesto is a joke and the 'culture' of gender hate had nothing to do with the violence while it's the complete opposite for the other. If you can't explain how this isn't doublethink, then no number tangential examples you can produce matters much.

Meanwhile everyone seems to be convieniently ignoring the relevant questions asked in post #21, so I'll repeat them for the cheap seats because just as I predicted, nobody will answer them.

I take it you believe that there was nothing going on with Rodger except misogyny? That if misogyny didn't exist, he never would have gone on a killing spree?

[chervilant]

214. Oh, snap!

There are quite a few feminists who've never discussed / commented on / learned about this individual the Major (apparently frequently) trots out to illustrate that "women are misandrists just like men are misogynists!" (so, there!).

Deeply appreciate your rebuttal!

[ismnotwasm]

251. Misandry apologists?

I was Under the impression you knew history. I'm sorry to be so mistaken.


And I know her history, am very familiar with her manifesto written 40 years ago, and I still fail to see your point connecting it to the current situation.


Here's a new story, not far from my own city. Yet another violent misogyynist

TACOMA, Wash. -- Tempers flared Tuesday afternoon as a Tacoma man accused of killing two people and beating a third went before a judge for the first time.

Aaron Livingston is accused of beating his girlfriend and killing 25-year-old Andrew Geissler and another woman Friday night in Tacoma. Investigators believe the violent incident happened after Livingston learned of a possible affair between Geissler and his girlfriend, 39-year-old Julia Wheeler.

On Tuesday, the 38-year old made his first appearance in a Tacoma courthouse, where he pleaded not guilty to murder and attempted murder.

A day before the killings, Livingston was arrested for assaulting Wheeler and Geissler. He was booked into Pierce County Jail, but released the next morning because prosecutors believed the assaults "did not rise to the level of felony charges."

After he was released, prosecutors say Livingston went to a local bar and exchanged several text messages with Wheeler. He then walked to the home the two shared and found Geissler on the coach.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Family-of-Tacoma-murder-victim-This-man-is-a-monster-260848351.html?mobile=y&clmob=y&c=n


Happens every day to women every where.

[Major Nikon]

253. If you want to contradict me, then do so

Not even bothering to contradict me while claiming I don't know history because you are so much better informed on the subject doesn't impress me much.

I still fail to see your point connecting it to the current situation

Then perhaps you aren't as familiar with it as you claim.

Both were mentally ill.
Both wrote an incoherent gender hate manifesto.
Both sought out like minded gender hate people to reinforce their beliefs.
Both went on a shooting spree.

Now for the differences some would have you accept:

One's manifesto had nothing to do with their violence and was actually just a clever joke.
One's relationships with like minded individuals had nothing to do with their violence.
One's violence had nothing to do with the "culture" they embraced.
One's mental illness had everything to do with their violence.

One's manifesto had everything to do with their violence.
One's relationships with like minded individuals had everything to do with their violence.
One's violence had everything to do with the "culture" they embraced.
One's mental illness was irrelevant to their violence.

Now please explain how this works exactly because I can accept either one or the other.

If you don't want to address my example, then don't, but pretending the example has no parallels seems more than just a bit lame.

Just sayin'

[Jamastiene]

148. If his misogyny hadn't existed, he would not have done the mass shootings.

His misogyny even to the point of asking his parents to send him to an all boys' school for a few years, because he could not stand to be around girls, and to the point that he wanted to start his own fascist government and starve most women to death, keep a few for breeding purposes by artificial insemination only, because he would ban sex (if he couldn't have it, no one else should either, in his view), and his belief that women were not smart enough to choose who to go out with on our own and thought men should decide that for women, and numerous other things he dreamed of doing were all related to his hatred for women.

He only hated men as a byproduct, because he was jealous that most of his friends from his younger years got to lose their virginity and he did not. One other friend was a virgin in later years as well, but did not agree with Rodger's obsession with it as if it was the worst insult to his greatness. He could not take Rodger's extreme rantings about wanting to start a fascist government and his literal attacks on couples he saw in public places and broke all ties with him. He hated women, but hated men too, simply because they were able to get girlfriends and he was not. He did not hate men because he thought of them as inferior (except nonwhite men, he did think they were inferior). He hated men because they made him feel inferior.

Misogyny played a huge role in everything he thought and did throughout his life, at least after he hit puberty. I suggest reading his manifesto. There is no way anyone can read that and come away feeling misogyny had no role in his actions. It was almost like reading Mein Kampf only all of the hatred was directed at women for not bowing down to his "magnificence" and men for getting to have girlfriends and losing their virginity all around him while he avoided women like the plague then wondered why he couldn't get a girlfriend. I wonder what would have happened to the poor soul who ever flat out told him to quit being an arrogant jerk and just talk to women and he might stand a chance. His insistence on avoiding women altogether and never talking to women coupled with his arrogance was why he didn't have a girlfriend or even a female friend in later years, except one paid youth counselor for a very short time.

[winter is coming]

175. I haven't claimed that misogyny had no role in his actions. Obviously, it did.

But given how messed up this guy appears to have been, even as a fairly young child, I think it's very likely he would have ended up shooting people even if he weren't a misogynist. Misogyny was the vehicle for his rage, not the rage itself. Some think that's splitting hairs, but I don't. If you assume that misogyny is that only thing that went wrong here, you ignore the mental illness/personality disorder that magnified something ugly and toxic into something dangerous.

[Jamastiene]

194. No one has officially said what mental illness he may or may not have had.

So far, the mentally ill angle has been purely speculation. Assuming he was mentally ill just puts stigma on people with mental illness. No one in an official position to give a definitive answer on what mental illness he might or might not have had has said IF he was mentally ill or not. I tend not to attribute these mass shooters with mental illness, because unless someone specifically says they had a specific mental illness, it just stigmatizes people with mental illness who are not nor would they ever be violent. I'm very much against speculating on any possible mental illness unless someone who knew his case says he definitely had one. I think he was just an asshole. That doesn't take mental illness.

The truth is, the guy was a self centered jerk who felt entitled to have whatever he wanted from women and when he did not get his way, he pitched a temper tantrum. His parents let him get by with his temper tantrums almost every time, by his own admission. He specifically mentions numerous times when he would pitch a temper tantrum and get by with it. There were times when he did not get by with it. He would make vacations to other countries a nightmare for everyone around especially if he was forced to go with his step mother on a trip. He got by with it. He was allowed to turn into an insolent, self aggrandizing all around jerk because of the fact that he used his temper tantrums to get his way and they let him do it. He felt entitled to whatever he wanted and saw service work as beneath him. He stayed in a state of constant outrage just because he saw couples walking around. He would go on walks and to restaurants and obsess with happy couples and pity himself because he did not have a girlfriend. He felt entitled and thought he was better than everyone else. It was probably a combination of these things plus a few others that turned him into what he became.

I would suggest everyone read his manifesto. He was a master manipulator from the time he was a small child. Losing his control over his situation when he hit puberty and could not make friends not have girlfriends and could not get a girlfriend (because he refused to be around girls or talk to girls especially after he saw them with other guys) was what sent him into his rages. He would rage when he could not get his way and was allowed to get by with it in most cases, but no one could MAKE women come to him and become his girlfriend and he would not be around women or talk to them very much. So, his own actions kept him from getting a girlfriend because he was an arrogant asshole and hated women so much that he would not interact with them except to jump out of his car and throw coffee or other drinks on them then jump back in and drive off, or trying to throw girls off a balcony because they did not adore him the way he thought they should. I'm pretty sure that is not how a guy should go about trying to get a girlfriend. I can't think of any woman who would like to be treated like that. The guy despised women because he could not control them and could not have them. Yet, he refused to be around them any more than he had to. The whole thing is a mind fuck if you really think about it. Yes, there were many factors, but his seething rage toward women was at the bottom of most of it.

[winter is coming]

197. I'm guessing "personality disorder" as opposed to a mental illness like schizophrenia.

I feel sorry for the people who sensed something was wrong, and tried to do something about it, but were unsuccessful.

[Jamastiene]

206. I do too.

If someone had found a way to teach him WHY he was having those problems getting along, he would have been much better off. Unfortunately, a bunch of warning signs were missed or not followed up on and he manipulated the situation so much that it was hard to help him for those who did try.


Personally, I think a lot of his problems and definitely this mass shooting he carried out could have been avoided had they let his step mother discipline him some more. His father was absent most of the time. His mother was very permissive and allowed him to pretty much do as he pleased. He pitched temper tantrums to get his way and got by with it most of the time.

He felt the step mother's discipline was cruel and unusual punishment though and found a way to manipulate the situation where he did not have to be around her very much. She made him go to his room for an hour and he thought that was an outrage and an embarrassment because she did it in front of one of his friends.

The step mother seemed to be the one who could have helped him because she seems to be the only one to bothered to discipline him. Discipline would have done him lots of good, but he hardly ever got any, because he manipulated his family into getting his way and got by with it far too much. That's just my thoughts on the subject of how this could have been avoided. He needed discipline and someone to teach him not to be such an asshole. His problems might have not been so severe in that case. Instead, he festered in seething hatred toward women until it became his life's mission to one the one hand complain girls did not like him and on the other be as cruel to them as he could if he interacted with them at all. In most cases, he avoided interacting with women and somehow expected to get a girlfriend. That wasn't going to ever work.

One thing I have wondered though is about his reaction the first time he saw porn. He said he was repulsed by it but at the same time wanted to do it. Sounds to me like he had a knee jerk reaction to it and when friends started losing their virginity around him, he felt more and more inferior because of it. He seemed to want things but do the opposite of what he needed to do to get what he wanted when it came to personal interactions with women. He seemed to get along fine with other boys, but resented them if they lost their virginity, because he wanted to lose his but did everything all wrong if he wanted that to happen.

[pnwmom]

161. He was most likely a paranoid schizophrenic,

whose sickness took the form of a delusion of grandeur and a hatred of women. His parents had "suspected" he had autism; but he had never actually been diagnosed as such -- and the social symptoms of autism and of pre-schizophrenia largely overlap.

His doctors prescribed an anti-psychotic that is used for schizophrenia but he refused to take it.



http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/paranoid-schizophrenia/basics/symptoms/con-20029040

Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:

Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you
Anxiety
Anger
Emotional distance
Violence
Argumentativeness
Self-important or condescending manner
Suicidal thoughts and behavior
With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms

Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may make ongoing criticisms of what you're thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.

[PeaceNikki]

163. That has not been reported anywhere.

[pnwmom]

165. What HAS been reported is that he was never diagnosed with autism,

(his parents merely suspected he had that) that he was prescribed an anti-psychotic that he refused to take, and that he was hearing voices and showing "extreme paranoia."

And what is a medical fact is that the symptoms of autism and of pre-schizophrenia largely overlap, making it easy to misdiagnose early schizophrenia as autism.

And it is much more likely that a person with paranoid schizophrenia would behave as he did, or a person with P.S. and autism, than a person with uncomplicated Aspergers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mental-illness-in-spotlight-after-uc-santa-barbara-rampage/

[PeaceNikki]

166. Whatever mental illness he may have had, it does not make his hateful rhetoric meaningless.

And it's silly for you to diagnose him.

[pnwmom]

174. It's no more silly for me than for anyone else to accuse him of just being evil.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mental-illness-in-spotlight-after-uc-santa-barbara-rampage/


From his video posts and written "manifesto," 22-year-old Elliot Rodger appears to have been a lonely outcast, deeply disturbed, paranoid, anxious, and prone to violent thoughts -- though he did not appear to have a record of violent behavior before Friday. His parents repeatedly attempted to get psychiatric help for their son. By his own account, he was prescribed antipsychotic medication but refused to take it.

Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, a leading expert on severe mental illness, told CBS News' "60 Minutes" in 2013 that many mass killings turn out to be committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving treatment. "About half of these mass killings are being done by people with severe mental illness, mostly schizophrenia. And if they were being treated, they would've been preventable," he said.


SNIP

Dr. Elizabeth Laugeson, an assistant clinical professor at UCLA who specializes in autism research, told CBS News at that time, "The vast majority of people with Asperger's are law-abiding citizens that don't act violently against others.... It's highly unlikely Asperger's alone would explain these violent acts."

She added, "I think it would be sad to vilify a community because of the action of one person who hasn't been confirmed to have the diagnosis."

SNIP

"Individuals affected by autism spectrum disorders are in dire need of support in their communities. Speculation on the perpetrator's diagnosis, whether autism related or not, has the potential to create an environment of harm for vulnerable populations," said Kaplan in a statement issued by the U.S. Autism & Asperger Association.

[winter is coming]

182. I have seen it claimed elsewhere on DU that he did *not* suffer from auditory hallucinations.

I don't know what the basis was for that assertion. I wouldn't take the drug prescription as prima facie evidence of suspected schizophrenia. It sounds like Rodgers was so uncooperative that the doctor may have tried the anti-psychotic out of desperation... i.e., nothing else has helped, let's try this drug, which has off-label uses. The thing that makes me doubtful of a diagnosis of schizophrenia is that his motivation was to punish, not to "save" himself or others.

Clearly, this guy didn't have all four wheels on the pavement, but we really don't know why yet. Perhaps we never will.

[pnwmom]

242. No one here can claim they know he did NOT. It hasn't been proven that he did, either.

But there is this report:

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

The accused UCSB mass murderer had been prescribed, but refused to take, psychiatric medication to help with his “extreme paranoia,” a source close to Elliot Rodger‘s family tells RadarOnline.com exclusively.
The 22-year-old, who law enforcement officials say killed six people before he died in a shoot out with deputies from the Santa Barbara County Sheriff ‘s Office, also “heard voices.”
His parents, Hollywood director Peter Rodger and his ex-wife, Li Chin, are now in hiding, staying at a hotel, as they try to come to grips with what their son is believed to have don

[one_voice]

213. Agreed. He was fueld by hatred...

He was a narcissist.

He hated everyone, himself, women, men, everyone. Hate fueled him. He hated the women that didn't sleep with him, he hated the men that slept with the women.

There was something wrong with him. How no one saw it is beyond me. He certainly needed help, imo.

[wercal]

31. In the strict definition of the term, he was indeed a Misogynist

He hated women. That's the classic definition.

But some people are trying to stretch this, and find a connection between his outright hell bent hatred of women, and what I would call 'everyday misogyny.'

I associate 'everyday misogyny' with a guy who doesn't necessarily hate women...but one who doesn't respect them. The guy who thinks women are bad drivers, are can't understand math. Even the boss who tries misuse his authority with a subordinate. These people are all misogynists.

And Rodger was a misogynist.

But the guy who makes a pass at his employee...he's most likely not mass killer material.

So its your last statement that I suspect a lot of people (including me) have a problem with:

"And it drove him to massacre people"

The vast majority of misogynists will never kill anyone. So any implication that misogyny drives people to murder is not supportable.

Not even in the Rodger case. He had more than one thing wrong with him, and its not certain what drove him to murder. Just today I read that he wanted to punish 'popular kids'...a fairly classis mass murdered grievance. Another source said he threw tantrums because he couldn't win the lottery. He also expressed a desperate desire to be loved by women...he only hated them after they rejected him. His manifesto spoke of being jealous of a kissing couple - not because he hated the woman in the couple, but because he couldn't be the guy kissing her. He also showed extreme hatred of his male room-mates. Essentially, he hated everybody but himself...not just women.

So was misogyny in the mix? In the putrid stew of his emotions? Yes.

Did it drive him to murder? Probably not. Almost the reverse, being rejected by women, drove him to it.

[seabeyond]

33. definition of misogyny. dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

[wercal]

46. OK

I never disputed he was a misogynist.

[seabeyond]

47. i always thought it ... hatred toward women. a lot of dictionaries have that definition.

i saw it yesterday. just putting info out, and your post was a place to put it.

[Laelth]

76. Excellent post. Thanks. n/t

-Laelth

[The Wielding Truth]

247. That's it. He was however taught to hate. His susceptibility is at question. Was he mentally weak?

[Louisiana1976]

5. True. He was a major jerk, for one thing.

[PeaceNikki]

10. A misogynistic jerk. You can say it. It's OK to say it.

[malaise]

34. That's my take as well

and he said he was jealous and envious.

[redqueen]

43. Did he say everybody was the source of all unfairness and should be exterminated?

No. No, he did not.

[Rex]

3. I don't know, I've seen people dance around that all day long in OPs.

Good article.

[Squinch]

113. It's frickin' weird.

[myrna minx]

6. K&R /nt

[geek tragedy]

7. Because then they may need to concede that misogyny is a problem, which

is obviously something a certain crowd around here won't admit

[johnp3907]

14. Bingo!

[Whisp]

17. Correct.

[TDale313]

20. Yep, that's exactly it. n/t

[redqueen]

25. Around here and around the world. nt

[malaise]

36. Well I know misogngy is a problem

but this guy hated everyone and hated himself the most. He was bat shit crazy- plain and simple.

[geek tragedy]

54. most misogynists are not psychologically well-adjusted people

that does not mean there aren't a lot of them

[PeaceNikki]

56. Please read the entire piece I linked in the OP. It's pretty powerful.

[uponit7771]

93. +1

[Keefer]

9. It's pretty clear to me

that he hated men too because he saw them "getting" women and he was rejected. He even mentioned it in at least 2 or 3 of his videos.

[PeaceNikki]

11. Yes, that was also fueled by his misogyny.

[Rex]

26. True, he killed his roommates to get them out of the way so he could torture women.

This ALL links back to his hatred for women imo.

[freshwest]

13. Because anything done to women must be explained away. Because...

[etherealtruth]

15. Its pretty clear he had a deranged hatred of women

[Whisp]

19. It is women's duty to 'put out' for creeps like that

even tho they are vile creeps they are ENTITLED damn you and woman, spread those legs for me! It's NATURE, damn it!

[etherealtruth]

22. Well, yeah isn't that why women are on earth ...

... to service the needs of deranged little psychos and all men? Screw the ideas of self determination and autonomy for women

How can anyone one argue against the idea that he was driven by a deranged hatred of women?

[SummerSnow]

38. I read in his manifesto

that he wanted to put women in concentration camps.Kill them slowly.Leave a few behind for reproduction.Then he said this way men will forget women and sex in future generations. He more than hated women. Don't know the word for it.

[etherealtruth]

39. I am not sure there is a word

[redqueen]

48. And yet still some here argue that he didn't hate women in particular.

Interesting, isn't it?

This is more than a blind spot.

[Shandris]

23. I don't see anyone reasonably arguing that he wasn't misogynistic; it would take an extreme...

...lack of reading comprehension for someone to say that he wasn't. Anyone who would make that claim is, frankly, an imbecile.

I think the argument is over (as the TIME column is mentioned) cultural misogyny. Trying to say that the question over whether it is cultural or not means that someone is saying it wasn't misogyny in and of itself is...disingenuous at best.

And as a side-note, I've grown quite tired of people who write articles that presume I live my life in 'preparation of when some man snaps'. Maybe, if that's their problem, they need to get out the 'big city' for a while. I've never heard of anyone I know IRL living in such a manner, I certainly don't, and I never will. Of course, I don't live in New York either. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Blue_Adept]

28. Reading a lot of the tweets about it this weekend...

And you can rightly come to the conclusion that all women live in constant fear of men in how they assess them. It's come up here constantly as well. Anything that says otherwise is just anecdotal evidence. I can talk about my current girlfriend and how she says she doesn't view things in this form, and never really has, but that's just anecdotal to the wave of evidence out there. And I totally get that.

But this constant fear thing reminds me of some of the passions and intensity we see from a segment of the gun owners out there as well in how they view the world in a state of fear of what will happen to them if they aren't armed. The whole thing this weekend about the Sonic or whatnot down in Texas and comments coming out of that have some interesting similarities.

[nomorenomore08]

71. I don't think it's that all women fear all men all the time. That *would* be over the top.

But from my perspective, it's only natural to be wary of someone who's both considerably larger than you, and at least potentially has a measure of power over you.

[nomorenomore08]

65. We can split hairs all we want, but I don't see how one can reasonably deny we have a problem.

Rodger is certainly an extreme and fairly unusual variant of that, but the number of men out there, walking around with a seething rage toward the female gender, is enough to scare even a big, masculine-looking guy like me.

[Shandris]

127. Oh, theres no denying there's a problem! I sure wouldn't say that at all.

I've known more than a couple woman-haters in my lifetime, and a couple of them have even made me very nervous to be around. Any woman can tell you that (Yesallwomen!). Where I draw the line is living in fear of that constantly; I don't and won't. I don't know anyone who does. 'Splitting hairs' (which, if I may gently suggest, is something we only talk about when it interrupts our rush to group people; when it's convenient to us, we then deny that it's splitting hairs. I say we need to be consistent about such things.) it may be, but split hairs determine policy, intent, and large facets of life. IOW...those are very important, and it behooves us to have -honest- conversation, even on the parts that don't fit perfectly with how we like to present things.

But I also know this: if I were in life-threatening danger, I'd trust 10 random men to save me far faster then they'd harm me. If hate and misogyny were truly as endemic as we like to claim it is, no sane person could make that argument.

[nomorenomore08]

190. We all have good and bad in us. And nearly all of us have at least the potential for good deeds -

like saving someone from an accident or assault - but we also all have a dark side which needs to be addressed as well. Being aware of the latter is, to me, one of the most important things we can do here.

[Jamastiene]

200. Rodgers once saved his younger half brother from drowning.

No one was paying attention and the kid fell in the pool and almost drowned. He saved him. So, he had the capacity to care about someone. The problem is, later, he mentioned planning on killing that same younger half brother because the kid was showing signs of be popular and Rodgers did not want him to get a girlfriend and be popular and surpass him at a younger age. He did not want him to "become the enemy" in his view of things. I wonder what happened that he did not go through with killing the younger half brother and the stepmother like he planned. I know he said his father came home early from a business trip and foiled his plans on April 24th, when he originally planned to do the mass murdering of women and couples. He said he did not want to tangle with his father and did not want to kill his father. I'm glad he at least did not kill his younger brother and his step mother. His step mother seemed to be the only one who ever actually tried to discipline him as a child and tried to get him to socialize more and learn how to act around people. Imo, it might have done him some good to have had more time around the step mother and let her raise him more. He spent an awful lot of time off to himself or playing his video games. His mother let him play Wow for 14 hours one time and many many hours most of the time. The stepmother only let him play in moderation for an hour a day or so and made him go out and socialize with the neighborhood kids. He hated that and found ways to make her stop forcing him to socialize.

[nomorenomore08]

203. Even the worst people on Earth can still have some capacity for good.

But of course, the converse applies as well.

[Jamastiene]

240. That is true. n/t

[hunter]

24. They don't want to see the misogyny that permeates our society.

They just don't.

But ask any woman, ask any guy with any sort of "feminine" trait.

They've experienced it.

[Egnever]

27. oh strawmen how I love thee

Nock em down!

[1StrongBlackMan]

59. I have noticed ...

you appear work really, really hard to deny misogyny and privilege for a "progressive/liberal/Democrat."

I wonder why that is?

[Egnever]

80. And I have noticed

That you and the OP can't dissagree with someone with out pretending they are some sort of deviant.

I wonder why that is?

[PeaceNikki]

84. WTF are you talking about?

Never mind, I don't really care.

[1StrongBlackMan]

89. Well ...

The denial of misogyny and privilege is/should, rightly, be a deviant position for progressives/liberals/Democrats. But then, I'm biased.

[Egnever]

95. Once again a strawman

I have never once denied misogyny or privilege what I object to is your framing and use of both issues as a cudgel. Both clearly exist in society. My objection comes in when you think you are the curator of all the answers.

When someone disagrees with what you say and how you consistently make lame attempts to try to equate that disagreement with a denial of the existence of the issue.

It is tiring and ridiculous and I will continue to push back against it no matter how much it irks you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

129. Frankly ...

your "push back" doesn't "irk" me, I just notice that you are ever present to post the differing,{ETA} and status quo supporting, opinion on every thread about misogyny and/or privilege.

[thucythucy]

115. How is the OP or the article linked to a "straw man" argument? nt

[PeaceNikki]

116. People on DU like to use that every time they disagree with something.

It's weird.

[thucythucy]

117. Weird indeed.

He jumps into a thread, calls out "straw man" without elaboration.

What's the problem? What's the point?

[PeaceNikki]

118. he also made some weird accusation that I called him a "deviant" or something.

Whatever. Pixels.

[thucythucy]

123. I saw that as well.

I would guess your OP struck a nerve.

[1StrongBlackMan]

173. But isn't ...

shouldn't the denial of misogyny (in this case or in general) be a deviant position among "progressives/liberals"?

Shouldn't the support of the status quo, in terms of sexism/racism, be a deviant position among "progressive/liberals"?

[PeaceNikki]

180. for sure.

But I hadn't responded to him at all.

See. A weird thing with all of the misogyny denial peopleb is that they really take this personally

[1StrongBlackMan]

183. Which only proves they haven't a clear understanding...

of what misogyny is about ... Just as their resistance of white privilege demonstrates they haven't a clue as to what white privilege is about.

[PeaceNikki]

184. Exactly.

[Demo_Chris]

29. Who has a problem admitting this? The issue is not his hatred for women...

But that some have attempted to politicize this crime and extend this lunatic's hate to somehow encompass as many men as possible in the circle of blame. The crime, we are supposed to believe, was not caused by a rare lone lunatic doing what violent sociopaths do, but by misogynistic society. Men, it is suggested, are all responsible, women all victims, and if you disagree with this idiotic assertion you are branded as a sexist.

Ultimately all of that is crap. It was, as always, just a lone sociopath doing what sociopaths do. The guy was evil and driven by hate. His excuse is as relevant as the excuses offered by passionate Nazis, it's not worthy of discussion.

[PeaceNikki]

35. who else has encompassed

"as many men as possible in the circle of blame"? That's silly. Is fair to ask what other hateful misogynistic circles might help contribute to such horrors. He has supporters out there. People who are literally cheering his behavior. Others who have stated that more women will die if they don't start to pay attention to guys like him. It should be discussed. At length. Seriously.

[seabeyond]

37. it appears by this very post, you have a problem admitting this. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

44. No, he's just pointing out a difference of opinion

Some people feel Rodger killed because he had a severe mental illness.

Others feel that he killed because of he was swept up in a broader misogynistic group think.

I can't imagine that anyone disagrees that Rodgers was misogynistic, as Demo_Chris clearly does.

[seabeyond]

50. no. thru out the post he took it away from misogyny and excuse in every way.... and at no

point did he return to say the man was misogynist. so. i will rely on words, when i make a reply. instead of making shit up.... and presenting as a truth, when the words are not there.

that is the only way i can make a comment about what another says. actually addressing what he says.

Who has a problem admitting this? The issue is not his hatred for women...

But that some have attempted to politicize this crime and extend this lunatic's hate to somehow encompass as many men as possible in the circle of blame. The crime, we are supposed to believe, was not caused by a rare lone lunatic doing what violent sociopaths do, but by misogynistic society. Men, it is suggested, are all responsible, women all victims, and if you disagree with this idiotic assertion you are branded as a sexist.

Ultimately all of that is crap. It was, as always, just a lone sociopath doing what sociopaths do. The guy was evil and driven by hate. His excuse is as relevant as the excuses offered by passionate Nazis, it's not worthy of discussion.

[MannyGoldstein]

52. "Who has a problem admitting this?"

Quite clear.

[seabeyond]

55. yes. he clearly says, who has a problem admitting. and then shows us what a challenge it is for him

to admit. hence, my reply to him.

ya. i thought a bit ironic myself.

[MannyGoldstein]

57. I see nothing indicating it's challenge for him to admit Rodgers hated women

He doesn't admit that Rodger killed because of a misogynist subculture of greater or lesser size.

[seabeyond]

64. and i see a whole post of his that answers his first question.

[Maedhros]

102. There is some evidence for this, Manny.

Rodgers spent a good deal of his time immersed in the online misogynist subculture of MRA and PUA forums. There is a case to be made that the feedback he received there could have touched off his violent episode.

[MannyGoldstein]

106. I don't disagree. Some of those folks spew evil stuff

which could have set him off.

Seabeyond is asserting that Demo_Chris cannot admit that Rodger was a misogynist, which I think is very, very, off the mark. The disagreement is over whether misogynism caused these deaths.

I'm getting a little tired of what I perceive to be a little game of "say the words I want or else I'll accuse you of something awful".

[GeorgeGist]

111. Sorry to see you splitting hairs.

Really disappointed in you.

[MannyGoldstein]

124. It's not splitting hairs.

It's the English language.

Words shouldn't mean what we'd prefer them to mean.

[Maedhros]

126. Acknowledged.

On the flip side, though, is a definite trend by some posters to disavow misogyny as a motivating factor entirely, or to minimize it's effect as "just one of a number of factors."

I think it's fair to discuss other possible causes in addition to misogynistic Internet culture, but it seems to me from Rodgers' own writings that misogyny is the most virulent driving force behind his actions.

[bettyellen]

152. The disagreement is over whether misogynism played a part in these deaths, and many others....

blows my mind a lot of people don't see the connection. I'm pretty sure every woman here sees it.

But if it's not their problem, spewing off dismissively with the "All men" BS is always an option.

[MannyGoldstein]

168. "Why Is It So Hard For People to Get That Elliott Rodger Hated Women?"

Is the title of this OP.

I don't think there's more than one way to read that.

[PeaceNikki]

172. There's more to the OP and the article linked in it than the title, also.

[bettyellen]

178. this thread is about the refusal (of some) to put this in a cultural context, instead of pretending

there is none.

I didn't realize we needed to spell it out for you. Seemed obvious to me!

[Demo_Chris]

195. Not at all, the psycho hated women. He hated them (and everyone else) so much...

He went on a blood soaked rampage killing everyone in his path.

[seabeyond]

199. ya. see. it is clear what you did there.

[LeftyMom]

40. He was in communication with and motivated by an organized misogynist movement.

If he'd posted on Stormfront and subscribed to David Duke's YouTube channel and posted a 140 page manifesto about how he was going to kill people of color because he hated them for failing to recognize his superior whiteness, nobody would have questioned that he was motivated by race and part of a larger racist movement. But substitute gender hate into those facts (ie the real scenario) and all of the sudden he's a lone loon and all of the sudden people like you want to know 'why are those uppity bitches talking about misogyny like it's a real problem?'

Go NOT ALL MEN somewhere else. DU has had enough of that shit and nobody here is taking it anymore.

[seabeyond]

51. man hating bitches, on this one. not uppity. man hating.

just sayin'

[Starry Messenger]

81. +1

[TDale313]

92. +2

[RetroLounge]

109. +1

RL

[LTR]

236. He wasn't part of any organized movement

He communicated on a message board with other pessimistic social misfits. And he may or may not have read a few bullshit ebooks from some low-level PUA scamsters (plenty of those out there). Hardly an organized misogynist movement. More like a loose collective of fuckups.

Too many wannabe victims here. And I thought right-wingers were pathetic in this regard.

[LeftyMom]

241. Racists are fuckups too. Nobody said he was part of a well-run movement full of smart people.

And you can stick the slight about victimhood up your ass. Knowing your enemy is the exact fucking opposite of being a victim.

[LTR]

243. So you think in terms of "who is the enemy"?

That's why society is so fucked up these days. People would rather think in terms of who their enemy is rather than just working to deal with it. I expect that from the tea party clowns.

[LeftyMom]

244. People who loathe women are a threat to my physical well-being.

I don't need a lecture about how to protect myself, thanks. I've been navigating this world in a lady body for long enough to have the hang of it.

[nomorenomore08]

72. "...encompass as many men as possible in the circle of blame."

As usual, making it all about the alleged man-hating. Couldn't possibly be anything else at work, could there?

This man says we should can the persecution complex already.

[bettyellen]

169. it's fucking twisted- to even approach this subject with "concerns" about man hating....

What a pantload. But, when Nazis kill he thinks we shouldn't talk about racism either- so there's that!

[nomorenomore08]

191. Anything to exempt oneself from any responsibility to the world whatsoever, right? How libertarian.

[bettyellen]

193. Half the derailers have parroted MRA, evo-psych bullshit again and agan- so they are now invested

in explaining that their bizarre ideas are- in a big way- just harmless! Suddenly all these "big idea" dudes can't see any context, LOL.
Not buying this shit.

[nomorenomore08]

196. And if they want to hang on to bizarre or stupid beliefs, then whatever, we can't stop them.

It's loudly insisting that the rest of us are the stupid ones, that sets me off, personally.

[seabeyond]

207. well. there in lies the problems. until the shit is spouted off to some other pathetic young man

and he believes, buys into it to the point of rage that he murders some more people.

so ya. it is an issue.

[nomorenomore08]

209. I have no illusions about being able, individually, to change anyone's mind.

But we do need to keep disseminating our ideas and opinions and hope someone learns something.

[seabeyond]

215. ha. that is kinda funny cause brave just said something that was a eye opener for me

that i had not thought of. and i just posted to her a thank you for saying what she did, connecting the dots for me, on something i had never thought of.

so, when people listen. people learn, grow, shift.... fluid.

i am good with that.

but... my point is. the more and more and more this misogynist crap is spouted off, and the evo psych shit is fed to our young men that are desperately looking to cling onto something that identifies their manhood, defines their masculinity for them, the more important it is that always... the trash is challenged. always. and the more that challenge it the less likely another young man will be pulled into this hate.

that is why is it important.

[nomorenomore08]

220. I absolutely agree. n/t

[bettyellen]

121. so, you'd rather not talk about racial motivations of Nazis too? But its fine to discuss how you

MISREAD what people are saying and twist it into the perennial favorite BS of "all men".
Nope.

[1StrongBlackMan]

179. Why are the horrific crimes/acts of ...

white males, always individual acts; but those of PoC, emblematic of cultural dysfunction?

[Demo_Chris]

202. I cannot answer without knowing what the PoC is. nt

[bravenak]

205. People of Color.

Like when people say the black community needs to works on black on black crime.
Why don't we also say that the white community needs to work on racism and white on white crime?
I'd love an answer.

[seabeyond]

211. point. ouch. see. lesson learned. not that i have said it, but... i have not connected those dots

thank you.

and to be clear peoples... this is an example of listening and ... wait for it.

learning.

[bravenak]

216. The l words scare some people.

No one has ever answered me but i will ask until i get a reasonable answer.

[seabeyond]

222. it is an EXCELLENT question. yes do. keep asking. nt

[Demo_Chris]

228. Okay, but first your original question...

Your question in bold:

"Why are the horrific crimes/acts of white males, always individual acts; but those of PoC, emblematic of cultural dysfunction?"

That's a great question. I imagine it really annoys you when the crimes of individuals are assumed to be symptomatic of PoC cultural dysfunction. One would then hope that you would take this experience and reject similar arguments when that silly broad brush is applied to other demographics. In this case a lone psychopath went on a murderous rampage. Some, like ghoulish carpenters, are trying to build a house on the corpses, claiming that the actions of this maniac are evidence of male cultural dysfunction.

"...people say the black community needs to works on black on black crime.
Why don't we also say that the white community needs to work on racism and white on white crime?
I'd love an answer."

Two answers. The first is individual and cultural racism. The second is the relative percentage of criminals (serving time) within the two communities -- which provides ammunition for statements of that type. I can also answer for myself as an individual. I believe that ALL of us, as individuals and groups, need to work on all of these issues.

In any case, this loser is not worth either of our time or attention, so I will leave you with the last word.

[bravenak]

231. So racism.

I think we need to explore this in the future. I am also sick of this murderer.

[seabeyond]

30. they might have to acknowledge, there is indeed, a problem. and they fight hard to deny that

problem. it is obvious and clear on du, how much a few cannot handle hearing the reality. but, too many people see, so, this genie is not going back in the bottle either. our youth, living it, sees. our girls, that say... not happen. they have their boundaries. and the boys, seeing the results. time are a changin' i believe.

[Puzzledtraveller]

218. or they don't care

like me.

[seabeyond]

223. well. didnt you jsut put me and all women in our place. you da man. lookin' like all that.

[Puzzledtraveller]

224. Yeah, that's it.

You need a snack? I just made non GMO strawberry and kiwi fruit bars. I reallly did.

[seabeyond]

226. cool.

i am easy. what can i say. but... that does sound interesting.

good for you

[Starry Messenger]

32. Maybe they need small words and diagrams...

Like this one of Rodger's, showing life with and without women, after he killed them all:

?w=1180&h=790

[PeaceNikki]

66. Right, there were a few specific men he wanted to kill, but he wanted ALL women dead.

[WinkyDink]

42. I agree. When a man tells you who he is, believe him.

[shanti]

147. Truer words were never spoken n/t

[alphafemale]

45. Yes he hated women. He hated everyone.

He had no real grasp on reality.

Influenced by violence and misogyny in culture.

A sense of entitlement to sex with "hot chicks" that mentality healthy males grasp is not a reality.

The same as the media perception that your diet can consist of Big Macs and milkshakes. And you will have a svelte body.

[cali]

49. He certainly hated women but his hate wasn't relegated solely to women

He expressed a desire to kill his younger brother, for instance.

why is it so hard for people to get that he was a psychopath/sociopath?

[PeaceNikki]

53. A misogynistic psychopath/sociopath.

His mental health issues do not make his hateful rhetoric meaningless.

I ask you to read the whole piece linked in the OP, it's pretty powerful.

[PeaceNikki]

67. There were a very few specific males he wanted dead. But he wanted ALL women dead.

[SunSeeker]

58. K & R

[Demobrat]

60. I don't think anybody disagrees that he was a misogynist

But he wasn't JUST a misogynist. He hated women, AND men who got to have sex with women, AND he was a malignant narcissist.

[PeaceNikki]

63. Did you read the whole article linked in the OP?

I do wish you would because it explains how many women feel when his hatred of women is treated as an afterthought and/or not a contributing factor in his massacre.

[Demobrat]

156. Yes I did.

I am a woman BTW - a single woman who stopped dating when one too many creeps got aggressive with me. And yet I have no problem with the fact that misogyny is not the whole story here. Go figure.

[PeaceNikki]

158. weird. I don't recall saying it was. or where the article did, either.

[treestar]

68. Yes, that seems clear

given the web sites and his attitude. Maybe men who have those feelings want to avoid thinking they think like him. Oh, but they wouldn't kill anyone. Probably right, but they can admit Rodger did based on similar feelings.

[LTR]

70. He hated himself more than anyone

That's pretty obvious.

[Laelth]

87. Spot on. n/t

-Laelth

[bettyellen]

101. So, he didn't hate women enough for you? Okay....

[LTR]

217. Don't put words in peoples' mouths

That is not what I said.

[bettyellen]

235. then don't minimize his hatred of women. it was the focus of his writings.

ignoring that is bullshit.

[flashbang]

73. The fact we need to admit women are viewed as objects proves there's a problem

Whatever his disorder, he clearly mirrored the objectification and fixation on women as chattle. Only a willfully ignorant person would dismiss that. It was symptomatic of his twisted world view, which he himself knew was twisted. The analysis of this guy is frustrating and painful, but I think it's necessary to understand that there were many 'cracks' in this guys world and he kept falling through them, which only compounded his sense of disconnection with Society.

Meanwhile, people are dead. The rage that must've cut loose from him had to be enormous to take down those three young men. Rodger was not exactly a big dude. Those poor families. Their grief is heart breaking. When someone is murdered, stolen from you, the Earth tends to tilt on its axis afterwards. I hope the dogged media will respect that and give them privacy and time to grieve together.

Rodger's flatness and oddness of tone was so much like a tape recorder, playing back the vocabulary he had heard. As for his manifesto, slogging through that is tough. But a few things stood out and one is that there's no recall of any affection towards him. No hugs, Dad tousling his hair or wrestling with him. In his mind, all 'touch' must lead to sex. Which is a message we all get every day. But it's on balance against platonic affection, if you will. It's also odd he recalls wandering around a video arcade at the age of TEN till 3 in the morning. Who lets their kid do that? "father' to him represented a remote Santa Clause who could 'get' women. Anyway, his sense that 'connection' meant a 'hot, blonde girl' would be next to him if he did everything right is anything but normal thinking for an adult man.

I really hope we learn more about the victims and their families, if they are so inclined but don't owe us, the public, a damn thing regarding their feelings. Daughters and sons dead. It's horrific. Justice, in part, would be that on closer examination of Elliot, that men, in general, will not shut their minds or turn away from the responsibility regarding the painful and sometimes deadly rationalizations of sexism and misogony. It is cowardly and contemptible to do otherwise. Men that do not distance themselves from an objectifying belief system, are condoning the rhetoric of disturbed, unhealthy minds like Elliots. To say anything else, imo, is willful deception to self and society at large. End of.

[PeaceNikki]

75. great post. thank you so much for your input.

Together we'll keep trying to make the world a better place. For all of us. If anything, this tragedy demonstrates that this kind of hate affects us all. It weakens us as a society.

[Laelth]

91. If he thought women were chattels, why didn't he go to the store and buy one?

Perhaps he wished women were chattels, but he obviously knew that they were not. If women were chattels, presumably this killer would have bought one or two and there would have been no massacre. Perhaps he wanted to objectify women and treat them as such, but he appears to have never gotten an opportunity to do so.



-Laelth

[bettyellen]

160. he had the bizarre idea that every woman he saw was fucking the man standing next to her....

(and not him, boo hoo!)

He had a very warped idea in that he could not imagine these women as friends, sisters, daughtera or anything except a sex object for the closest man in her proximity.

[Laelth]

256. I agree that he had warped ideas.

It appears that he was a pretty warped person. Not sure it's accurate, though, to say he viewed women as chattels unless he believed that those men he envied, the ones he saw with women, bought said women at the store. Perhaps he saw them as "trophies" (inhuman accessories)?



-Laelth

[seabeyond]

258. he did not go buy one cause he is a coward. he was afraid of sex. he was afraid of women.

he could not be in the vicinity of a woman let alone talk to a woman. let alone talk to a woman and offer her money to service him, for his use.

him not having sex or not buying women had nothing to do with his hate of women and had all to do with his own cowardness

[Laelth]

260. Many men are arfraid of women, whether they admit it or not.

And many men are cowards (when it comes to women). I wonder why that is.

btw, I would like to see your response to the following post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5005518 (What is the "actual" problem? Are women "stupid" for teaching patriarchy?)

-Laelth

[bettyellen]

263. he seemed to envy and want whatever he saw other people had or wanted -nothing seemed to be original

in his thoughts at all. Originally he pretended we was interested in girls because his peers were. I know people do shit like that, but he in particular seemed to only be interested in what other people "had".

[redqueen]

246. Excellent post.

Thank you.

[TexasBushwhacker]

77. He was a "nice guy" who bought into the girls only like jerks myth

I've heard it a million times. Guys who consider themselves "nice" bemoan the fact that they constantly "strike out" with women and that they are doomed to life in the "friend zone". The thing is, they really aren't "nice". It isn't nice to expect female panties to drop because in their mind they are what every woman wants. If they took the time to get to know women as people instead of looking at all of them as potential conquests. then they would probably make some female friends and WHO KNOWS maybe even get a girlfriend.

Here's an interesting quote from s3rp3nts, commenting on Michelle Dean's article:

"Last night, deep in the throes of an argument on this very subject, I performed the below quick-and-dirty word count (CNTL-F) on The Manifesto. My results:

# of uses of the word "girl": 540
# of uses of the word "couple": 105
# of uses of the word "relationship": 6
# of uses of the word "together": 94
# of uses of the word "kissing": 6
# of uses of the word "women": 78

Including this gem:

Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence.

# of the uses of the word "blond": 62
# of uses of the word "beautiful": 130
# of uses of the phrase "beautiful girl": 55
# of uses of the word "girlfriend": 98
# of uses of the word "sex": 191
# of uses of the phrase "with me": 33"

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

88. Except he wasn't a "nice guy" or a nice guy

It sounds like he did not even have the requisite social skills to "fake" being a nice guy for one second. It looks like from all accounts, he couldn't utter a word to anyone unless he was drunk. Even his "friends" thought he was an asshole.

Doormat "nice guys" at the very least, can hold a conversation. Usually while the object of their affection trashes their boyfriend or something.

[TexasBushwhacker]

108. Yes, I get the impression that he really had no friends, male or female n/t

[LTR]

221. He wasn't a nice guy

He was a smug, antisocial creep who couldn't deal with people well on a social level. People can see through that.

Nothing wrong with being nice. But be confident and real about it. Whatever women are out there that only like jerks are not worth anyone's time. Move on.

[IkeRepublican]

79. That guy didn't like anybody

Obviously.

[PeaceNikki]

82. There were a very few specific males he wanted dead. But he wanted ALL women dead.

See the difference?

Did you read the whole article linked in the OP or not?

[ecstatic]

83. He was an un-medicated paranoid schizophrenic at the height of the disease

He heard voices and was extremely paranoid. The misogyny and other bigotry he displayed was likely caused by his mental illness. Were it not for his mental illness, there's a chance he'd hate women, but there's almost no chance we'd be discussing him right now. If we're discussing WHY this specific tragedy occurred, it's because of our sick gun culture/nra,etc. which allows anybody, including an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic, to buy guns and ammunition.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_schizophrenia

[PeaceNikki]

90. Whatever mental illness he may have had, it does not make his hateful rhetoric meaningless.

[ecstatic]

131. it wasn't meaningless, but it wasn't the direct cause of his killing spree.

I think the biggest problem here is we're not all talking about the same thing. Is misogyny a problem? Yes. Was the killer misogynist? Yes, and he harbored other hateful beliefs as well which were most likely a direct result of his illness.

[H2O Man]

125. nope

[Hekate]

85. KnR

[secondvariety]

86. Of course Roger

hated women. Speaking as a man who's entire family (including the pets) is made up of females, I'm glad the little turd is gone.

[JJChambers]

94. Rodger, Elliot hated sexually active men as well

[bettyellen]

100. yet planned mainly to massacre women-who were lucky enough not to trust strange men and survived!

[JJChambers]

128. He slaughtered twice as many men than women

[bettyellen]

130. his plan was to mass murder a whole sorority of women. not interested in facts though, eh?

I got it. BYE!

[JJChambers]

141. I am not disputing the fact that he hated women

I am inserting the fact that he hated sexually active men, too. He loathed them.

[bettyellen]

144. and he planned to murder more women? Because he did.

[JJChambers]

150. Yes, he planned to murder a sorority of women

And he planned to lure people to his apartment to murder. And based on how many rounds of ammunition he had, I imagine he planned to murder as many random people as he could before being shot by police or shooting himself.

He still hated women and still hated sexually active men.

[bettyellen]

153. hated women because he disagreed they should have any sexual autonomy.

[redqueen]

249. He said, "There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female."

He said, "Women are like a plague. They don’t deserve to have any rights. Their wickedness must be contained in order to prevent future generations from falling to degeneracy. Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals and they need to be treated as such."

He also said that most women should be put into concentration camps, to be starved to death, while he watches. Some would be saved for breeding in laboratories.

[JJChambers]

250. Indeed. He hated women.

[Triana]

104. Rodgers sounded just like some others we know who hate women...

...not a hair's difference:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11383741

[Brigid]

107. Michelle Dean is right.

As a woman, I feel I must be on my guard any time I walk out my front door. And most, if not all, women walk around with a mental checklist rolling around in our heads: Where am I? Who is around me? If they are men, are they perhaps watching me a little too closely? What am I wearing? Do I have my keys in my hand? Can I trust that guy I never saw before who just got on the elevator with me? At home, did I remember to lock the doors? It all boils down to one thing: We don't know whether the men around us -- the one we don't know, at least -- can be trusted or not. The constant wariness is, to put it bluntly, a pain in the butt. But either we follow "the rules" of rape prevention or we get blamed if the worst happens. And it breeds resentment.

[PeaceNikki]

112. I don't know if most men can truly conceptualize what this is like.

I really don't.

[Throd]

119. It is self-evident. Who is disputing this?

[PeaceNikki]

120. Lots of people. Read the article linked in OP.

Or many threads on DU. Especially the one focused on the killer's "male suffering".

Oh, there was even one who stated the killer "had a point about girls ignoring guys like him."

[bettyellen]

135. same half dozen dudes here- plus a few too many thousand like minded women haters on the net.

[geek tragedy]

138. the usual MRA suspects who throw an absolute hissy fit any time misogyny is discussed.

and who insist there is no widespread sexism while constantly telling women to shut up.

Sadly, not all of them have migrated to discussionist

[Exultant Democracy]

122. And the trench coat mafia hated cool kids so what? Gun are the issue guns are what killed

anything that takes away from the issue of guns is grave-dancing.

[geek tragedy]

132. funny comment from one of the men who try to silence critiques of misogyny around here.

Now your excuse for telling women to shut up is that the REAL issue is guns, because of course for you and yours the REAL issue is always something, anything other than misogyny and sexism.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=20264

Karl Rove does a jig each time we fan the flames of our internal discord. Divide and conquer,

turn the poor white against the poor blacks and the women against the men. Make the women think they have more in common is the Sandberg's and Clinton's of the world then they do with the guy down the block.

From the same person who celebrated with joy the fact that women (supposedly) have to compete with porn for the affections of men.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=7984

The sexual landscape in America has changed rather dramatically. It's why yoga pants are everywhere.

I've been lucky to spend a good portion of my youth and early adult hood in academia and its just a good time to be a man. Women make up 60% of college students and the competition for male sexual partners has exploded. These women know that not only do they face a 3/2 disadvantage in the numbers, but that they also have virtual competition in the form of porn. God bless the rise of women, and the dawn of the age of yoga pants.

If you don't appreciate critiques of misogyny, you can go to your safe haven where you talk about how hot women are and how they victimize men and how men are more likely to be raped than women, etc etc etc.

P.S. not fooling anyone

[Exultant Democracy]

164. Gravedancing is gravdancing and it is always revolting. Jerry Falwell would approve.

As I have stated in a few places: talk about ER admittances and their correlation with domestic abuse if you want to make a case for the violence effects of misogyny. Or any of the other widely available statistics that support this like the number of people in lock up each night for domestic abuse. Making a case using solid statistical analysis has two advantages, first not sounding like fucking moron and second in a situation like this it avoids ghoulish grave dancing.

Using one crazy outlier as an example of some deeper cultural phenomena is illogical. The mass killer come from all walks of life the only thing they have in common is that they have guns and they shouldn't.

[geek tragedy]

167. calling out misogyny is revolting to people who don't want it discussed, ever, here.

the excuse to derail in this case is that it's 100% about guns and not about the motive of the killer.

Which is kind of like saying that James Byrd's murder was about car bumpers and not racism, or that Matthew Shepard's murder was about barbed wire and not homophobia.

There's already a protected group where discussions about how to combat misogyny and the patriarchy are prohibited. You don't get to apply the rules of the MRA group to the whole site.

Especially since he stabbed some of the victims to death.

[PeaceNikki]

170. Well said.

Thank you.

[H2O Man]

171. Well said.

Thank you.

[johnp3907]

201. I'll add another "Well said."

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

238. thank you geek. you are the best. nt

[bettyellen]

255. Stealing some of this because it's --> Beautifully put! X 1000000

"Which is kind of like saying that James Byrd's murder was about car bumpers and not racism, or that Matthew Shepard's murder was about barbed wire and not homophobia."

stealing that!

[bettyellen]

234. oh SNAP. you got his number, LOL.

[Jamastiene]

136. I would say any guy who dreamed of starting his own form of fascist government,

banning all sex, killing almost all women by starving them to death in concentration camps, and keeping only a few for reproduction of the human species as breeders, and then only through artificial insemination (sex would be banned for everyone), believed women were inferior and chose inferior mates because they did not choose him, wanted to breed out of existence women's attraction to jocks by controlling the artificial insemination and experimenting, and tried to throw a woman off a balcony because she was talking to her boyfriend, qualifies as pretty doggone misogynistic. I don't see how anyone could say the guy was not a misogynist. I think he was a Hitler in the making, personally, and am glad he never won the lottery or gained the power he wanted so badly. The Tea Party types and the Republicans would have loved him. I still cannot believe I read his entire manifesto, but I suggest everyone read it before trying to claim he did not hate women. Trust me. He hated women. He only hated men as a byproduct because men had girlfriends and he did not. He was even going to kill his own baby half brother because he was popular and might lose his virginity in his teens. I wonder why he changed his mind on that part and on killing the stepmother just because, in the end, but considering how he thought, maybe it is better that I don't understand or know. I'd hate to actually know THAT kind of mind too well. What's that saying about the abyss. Trust me. His mind was the abyss.

[H2O Man]

140. Yes, he absolutely did.

That hatred was the driving force behind his cowardly acts.

[steve2470]

143. he was a mentally ill misogynist, end of story

We don't know exactly what mental illness he suffered from, but apparently it was severe enough (psychosis - should have said a disorder with psychotic symptoms, my bad, or schizophrenia, etc) for one psychiatrist to recommend Risperidone, an anti-psychotic drug. From the WSJ article he did not take it, against medical advice.

If he had been a "ordinary" misogynist free from crippling mental illness, he would be a royal pain in the ass to women, but everyone would be alive. From what I know about misogyny, it is not the only factor involved when a man kills women. Yes, it IS a factor but not the only factor.

From the WSJ article:

According to Mr. Rodger's circulated document, his parents last year took him to a psychiatrist, who prescribed Risperidone, an antipsychotic commonly used to treat the symptoms of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. But Mr. Rodger believed it was "the absolute wrong thing for me to take," and refused to take it, he wrote.

[PeaceNikki]

146. I'd venture to guess most, if not all, misogynists are mentally ill. It's not normal.

Same with racists. And, as was said in a previous thread, of there were a Venn Diagram of the two, it would be a single circle.

[steve2470]

151. I would agree about the severe ones

AFAIK, the APA and the American Psychiatric Association have not "ruled" that misogyny is a mental illness. Maybe in the future they can issue a diagnosis that is very tightly worded so as to exclude the "ordinary asshole" ones.

[PeaceNikki]

157. I am strongly of the opinion that very few men proportional to society are misogynists.

I think there are a lot of people with misogynistic tendencies, some deliberate, some not. But I think real misogynists are like this kid and all of the people with whom he found solice.

[H2O Man]

159. "Psychosis" is a

symptom, not an illness (while schizophrenia is a range of psychotic illnesses).

A person can be psychotic -- or, thought-disordered -- without having a major mental illness. Issues that tend to be identified on axis 2, such as extreme anger/hatred, can result in psychosis, and could be why a doctor would recommend a particular medication.

Having read this fellow's manifesto, it does not seem that any specific signs of a major mental illness jump out at you. He was an extremely disturbed individual, and possibly what is known as a "psychiatric oddity," not unlike Charlie Manson.

[steve2470]

176. yes I understand all that

He was bright enough and lucid enough at times/most of the time to be able to write and broadcast what he did. I just find it hard to believe that any *competent* psychiatrist would recommend Risperidone for someone without a major Axis I disorder. I find his writings borderline psychotic. Maybe the shrink knew that counseling had failed or that Eliott was refusing therapy AMA, and the Risperidone was a last ditch attempt to help him maintain behavioral control.

None of us know the full picture, and we're all touching different parts of the elephant, as the saying goes. I do hope you are well, friend.

[H2O Man]

186. The manifesto all

seems to have been composed in a relatively short period of time. The content, including style, word choices, and limited range of emotions (all histrionic), suggest he was preparing it while planning his crime. He clearly is addressing it to those who would read it after he made the headlines.

As such, I think it is worth considering if he was taking any legal or illegal substances to increase his stamina and focus for 48 to 72 hours.

I worked as part of a forensic mental health team for many years. Some team members were female, and had a bias against men; I'm sure they would say it was his hatred for women that caused his cowardly, violent outburst. Likewise, many team members did not have such bias; I am equally sure they would attribute this crime to his hatred for women.

That hatred, which spilled over into every area of his thinking, definitely is disordered at times to the extent that he would have benefited from strong medication.

It is such a terrible thing.

[herding cats]

149. He definitely hated women with a fervor.

Pretty blonde women most of all. He also hated men who dated pretty blonde women, or were socially more accepted than he was, or just did anything better than he did. But it was the women he blamed for his ills. It was their fault his life was what it was in his mind, and that's why he wanted to kill as many of them as he could.

[PeaceNikki]

181. mmm hmmm.

The ultimate evil behind sexuality is the human female. They are the main instigators of sex. They control which men get it and which men don’t. Women are flawed creatures, and my mistreatment at their hands has made me realize this sad truth. There is something very twisted and wrong with the way their brains are wired. They think like beasts, and in truth, they are beasts. Women are incapable of having morals or thinking rationally. They are completely controlled by their depraved emotions and vile sexual impulses. Because of this, the men who do get to experience the pleasures of sex and the privilege of breeding are the men who women are sexually attracted to… the stupid, degenerate, obnoxious men. I have observed this all my life. The most beautiful of women choose to mate with the most brutal of men, instead of magnificent gentlemen like myself.

Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence. If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating stupid, degenerate offspring. This will cause humanity to become even more depraved with each generation. Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female.

Women are like a plague. They don’t deserve to have any rights. Their wickedness must be contained in order prevent future generations from falling to degeneracy. Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals, and they need to be treated as such.
...
The first strike against women will be to quarantine all of them in concentration camps. At these camps, the vast majority of the female population will be deliberately starved to death. That would be an efficient and fitting way to kill them all off. I would take great pleasure and satisfaction in condemning every single woman on earth to starve to death. I would have an enormous tower built just for myself, where I can oversee the entire concentration camp and gleefully watch them all die. If I can’t have them, no one will, I’d imagine thinking to myself as I oversee this. Women represent everything that is unfair with this world, and in order to make the world a fair place, they must all be eradicated.

A few women would be spared, however, for the sake of reproduction. These women would be kept and bred in secret labs. There, they will be artificially inseminated with sperm samples in order to produce offspring. Their depraved nature will slowly be bred out of them in time.
Future generations of men would be oblivious to these remaining women’s existence, and that is for the best. If a man grows up without knowing of the existence of women, there will be no desire for sex. Sexuality will completely cease to exist. Love will cease to exist. There will no longer be any imprint of such concepts in the human psyche. It is the only way to purify the world.

TOTALLY not misogynistic.

[maced666]

187. Over this self-absorbed murderer. I'm open to discussions about the victims.

And hearing their stories. Done with the loser that robbed all of them. He's already had more time than he ever deserved.

[JI7]

210. i think because these people sympathize with the things he was saying

[PeaceNikki]

212. Yes, I read here how it's an example of "male suffering".

:barf:

[seabeyond]

225. cnn, msnbc, fox, local papers. read any comment section on the net and you hear massive amounts of

what this guy said. massive. exactly the same shit. over and over and over.

yes. it takes a lot of men to cover so much ground with this garbage. so one has to figure, that there is some protecting going on.

[CFLDem]

257. Denial

It's not just a river in Egypt.

[stevenleser]

259. A lot to digest in all of his writings and videos, but no question misogyny was his defining

characteristic for the last 6 years or so of his life and the main reason for his rampage.

The mechanics of how he got there are a lot muddier.

Someone over the last few days wrote how hate groups pounce on the disaffected and alienated and present them with a target for why they are disaffected and alienated and that is an effective recruitment tactic.

It seems like this guy already felt awkward around women and then exposure to MRA and PUA online forums caused him to coalesce his frustration and hatred around the idea that women were wronging him by not wanting him.

[flashbang]

266. Indeed

and I seem to, after trenching through his manifesto...blurgh..., recall him specifically mentioning some friend of his dads,that his dad directed him to, that he thought was 'very successful with women', and that this guy laughed off and/or was amused by Elliots woman rants.

Cautionary note: if a boy/man is specifically saying to you that all women hate him and he'd like to punish them and 'the Menz are right!', don't laugh it off. Programming's hard to break but a start is better than none at all.

It seems not one male in his life REALLY confronted or sat down to explain Life in general to him, such that he could really grock it. It's possible he couldn't by 22. That's not a 'kid'. That's a grown man. I guess we'll hear about it eventually. Regardless, when someone is talking and acting dangerous and not maturing...

...our MH care system has been very badly derailed since the 70's. We expect folks who CAN'T cope with complexity, to just cope anyway. We send people clearly violently ill to prison, which should be reserved for behavioral disorders, not mental illness.

Elliot knew he was wrong inside. And he said he couldn't turn back (insert rationalizations). That is not rational thinking. His sense of emotional detachment or being abandoned...sorry, but I'm tiring of speculating. People are shot up again.

He reflected and then acted on what other men/women, and media msgs approve of as a matter of normalcy every freaking day: sexism. racism. objectification. violence.