because apparently some people think this is up for debate

[geek tragedy]

Based on a discussion with someone who claims the majority of the site agrees with him

simple question:

is it true, accurate, and right to say that "'no' means 'no'" or is this meme untrue, false bullshit.

And, yes, this is being debated, here, and has been for some time.

22 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	"no" always means "no"--it does not matter what the woman or man 'means' when they say 'no'
	20 (91%)
	the 'no means no' meme is bullshit--sometimes 'no' means 'yes'
	2 (9%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[uppityperson]

1. kick to mark

[Lurks Often]

2. Correct 99.99% of the time

There are a small number of people in the bondage/submission lifestyle, that while in "scene" no doesn't mean no.

And yes I suppose I am being difficult since it doesn't really apply to the what the OP meant.

[seabeyond]

29. actually. you are wrong. no does mean no. even if playing a game, there is a safe word... for no

[Lurks Often]

51. And now we're arguing semantics

Yes in bondage/submission play there is a safe word which when used means play stops and they are no longer in "scene", but it is not the actual word "No"

[seabeyond]

54. we are not starting with me. but. that is a fact. no does indeed mean no. even playing a game.

regardless what the word is.

[Lurks Often]

57. I essentially agreed with you

and you still want to argue. Have a nice day

[seabeyond]

62. since it was an "essentially" i was not totally clear. and i was reiterating.

Have a nice day

i will. right back at you. making my Thursday, my Friday and ready to start a weekend.

[redqueen]

61. You're the one playing semantics. No means no. If certain people want to substitute a different word

for no, that doesn't suddenly change the basic concept being discussed here.

When a partner signals using words OR ACTIONS that they are not enjoying the experience, there is no grey area involved. There is no doubt at all.

No (or the substitute word for no ) means no.

[redqueen]

3. Goddess, did he really say most here agree with him?

[geek tragedy]

6. yes

I'm sure you two think you're smarter than your fellow DUers and they are in a lockbox with no access to the information in question with all of their critical thinking skills removed. I can assure you this is not the case, so for your own sake if nothing else you should stop pretending it is. Or don't. I can always use the chuckle.

[redqueen]

7. Aha... See, I couldn't make heads or tails of that sentence.

In a lockbox?



Anyway no, I'm sure very few people agree with him that "the no means no meme is bullshit".

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Please post a link to the thread ...

I need context ... Well, no I really don't; it's more like not being able to look away from what one knows is a horrific accident.

[geek tragedy]

36. will pm you the link nt

[thucythucy]

85. When you get the chance please PM me as well. Nt.

[freshwest]

75. I've noticed most of those posters come out late at night. Must feel lonely or bored...

[1StrongBlackMan]

76. Or the bars have all closed ...

and find themselves in the midst of another sexless night.

[freshwest]

77. Well, that was my first thought, too, but I didn't want to be accused of being a man-hating '___.'

Since I love 'em. But that talk makes it past Juries at DU now.

[gollygee]

4. Wow. How did I miss that.

I thought I'd seen all the threads about this.

[closeupready]

5. Um ... wat?

[geek tragedy]

8. earlier today was debating someone

who has gone on the record with the exact quote "the no means no meme is bullshit" and was defending that claim today

[closeupready]

9. That's what I was afraid of - people on this board these days

really can make this board suck. It's becoming too right-wing for me.

[geek tragedy]

11. this person is a host of two groups/forums and has over 14K posts nt

[Electric Monk]

12. Ah, so this is a thinly veiled callout thread. Why not include a link too while you're at it? nt

[geek tragedy]

16. the person claimed I was insulting the intelligence of

DUers by disagreeing with him.

I'm sure you two think you're smarter than your fellow DUers and they are in a lockbox with no access to the information in question with all of their critical thinking skills removed. I can assure you this is not the case, so for your own sake if nothing else you should stop pretending it is. Or don't. I can always use the chuckle.

This is just to take the temperature to see who is actually more inline with community standards

[Jim Lane]

102. If your purpose is "to see who is actually more inline with community standards" then I'm with you

I nevertheless passed on the poll because there are different interpretations of "'No' means 'no'" and I don't want to be understood as endorsing all of them. For example, although it's clear that "No" means one may not proceed with doing something that requires consent, I don't agree with some people here that "No" also means that one may never continue the conversation to seek to obtain consent. Of course, that in turn doesn't mean that one may always in all circumstances continue the conversation.

In short, there's just too much nuance for me to feel comfortable choosing between a blanket unqualified endorsement and a dismissal as "bullshit".

In the context in which it most often arises, however, "'No' means 'no'" is correct, so you're entitled to count me as being on your side for purposes of assessing community sentiment.

[geek tragedy]

103. I myself don't think no necessarily means discussion over.

just like yes doesn't mean the matter is settled either.

people are free to change their minds, and consent is a state of mind, but 'no' does mean 'no further' until that no is withdrawn

[Jim Lane]

104. I agree with your interpretation, but not everyone here does.

I'm tempted to start a poll that would explore some of the nuances I mentioned. Unfortunately, however, in the current state of DU, I have to conclude that such a poll would generate more heat than light.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. The "host" coupled with the quote gave me a good idea who you meant...and...

account currently flagged for review. (Whether over this or some of his other recent comments, one can only guess.)

[etherealtruth]

69. Sadly, I knew exactly who had said that (without actually reading it)

If I can identify a poster simply by sick content it has got to be bad

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. No ...

I (and Bravenak) hold that honor because I/we insist on talking about/pointing out privilege. A Duer told me/us that directly.

But I worked hard to gain that distinction and will not/do not take being stripped of that, lightly.

[bravenak]

81. Badge of honor.nt

[William769]

10. Un fucking believable!

[geek tragedy]

15. was a debate over this quote from an author:

While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom – the social custom of him taking money out of his pocket, giving it to her, and calling it a date. To a young man, the worst dates feel like being robbed and rejected. Boys risk death to avoid rejection (e.g., by joining the Army) Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. Somehow, women’s romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said “No”. They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this “marry the rapist” theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women’s most enduring romance novels. It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy.

the person was defending the author and his claims, I was calling the author a rape apologist misogynist swine.

the author is very popular in one particular group here, btw, you'll never guess which one

[William769]

17. There are a couple to choose from.

What part of no is not understood? How can there be a fucking misunderstanding? I'll stop here before I gey myself into trouble.

[seabeyond]

33. I'll stop here before I get myself into trouble.

awesome control you have

[William769]

40. Years and years of dealing with assholes

Have taught me when to strike and when to just wait for that right moment.

[seabeyond]

45. .......

[el_bryanto]

20. there is a potentially interesting discussion of the interesection of art (particularly cinema) and

gender; but I suspect that this discussion wasn't that. Particularly if he's arguing that no sometimes means yes within this context.

A lot of romance movies are about someone trying to turn a "no" into a "yes." But that ranges from more or less completely innocent sequences of romantic courtship up to, well, The Fountainhead or rape porn.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

22. sure, but that's not inconsistent with 'no means no'

when a person starts talking about "a man shouldn't go to jail" a certain line has been crossed

[el_bryanto]

25. Nods - I guess I'm thinking along those lines because of Andrew O'Herir's article

about this earlier this week, from Salon.

One or two or five movies in which a Seth Rogen or Jon Favreau type wins the devotion of a young woman who resembles a Victoria’s Secret model might be winsome romances, but any regular moviegoer recognizes the pattern, which we see repeated by the dozen. Rodger’s disturbing final video expressed what Hornaday calls “the toxic double helix of insecurity and entitlement that comprises Hollywood’s DNA,” a symbolic universe “whose escapist fantasies so often revolve around vigilantism and sexual wish-fulfillment.” Rodger felt himself barred from the latter fantasy, so he indulged in the former.

So I'm not the world's greatest fan of Romance movies but I've enjoyed them off and on over the years (along with Musicals) but there certainly are some issues with them as well.

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

31. Rogen and Favreau are probably bad examples

their real-life wives are as conventionally attractive, if not more, than their on-screen wives

if one wants to know why that dynamic of the schlubby guy with the gorgeous wife exists in screenplays so often, look at who writes screenplays

[el_bryanto]

37. yep - well like i say there's a longer discussion to be had here

About the relationship of movies/TV to mythology - what role do they play in helping us make sense of a chaotic world? And is that a beneficial or negative role (almost certainly both)?

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

39. this onion story comes to mind:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/romanticcomedy-behavior-gets-reallife-man-arrested,757/

[gollygee]

23. "Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape." ??????

Wait, hold it. Does that mean this author thinks that buying someone dinner and having her not want sex is equivalent to rape?

[geek tragedy]

24. yes, outside of MRA misogynist circles this author is reviled. nt

[m-lekktor]

43. sounds like Warren Farrell

that guy is a fucking creep.

[geek tragedy]

44. ding ding ding!

Warren Farrell has his fans at DU.

[redqueen]

30. Yes. A few people here used to go on and on about how the president asked him to

head a new Department of Men and Boys or something.

[geek tragedy]

32. a claim that was found only at the person's eponymous website nt

[redqueen]

38. Surely it's true! If you can't trust a rape and pedophilia apologist then who can you trust?

[redqueen]

34. I think his comments about "family sex" (his euphemism for incest) are even worse. nt

[gollygee]

35. Ack!!

Luckily, this is not an author with whom I am acquainted.

[redqueen]

41. I heard of him when someone posted an OP about his book - The Myth of Male Power.

It was an eye-opening day for sure.

[geek tragedy]

42. do a google search for: date rape date fraud exciting

(yeah, I know)

there will be a name that appears.

[randys1]

47. I was reading that too and this person is sick and demented, surely hope NOBODY on this forum

and I mean NOT ONE, agrees with that bullshit

[abakan]

84. Don't Pay! If you think dinner means more than dinner.

It does not mean if you give me food, I have a debt to you I must pay for by allowing you use my body, whether I want to or not.

[uppityperson]

55. "We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud,we called it excitin"?

Last edited Thu May 29, 2014, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

w.t.f.

"He might just be trying to become her fantasy."

Talk it out first, find out if it is her "fantasy" to be raped before ignoring what she says and assuming you know better "because".

[Sissyk]

63. uppity, can you pm me with a link where that comes from?

I'd really like to read it before passing judgement.

I don't mean that you haven't because you obviously are posting what you read. Plus, I know you better than that. lol!

[uppityperson]

65. I had it, closed it, let me see what I can find. Dang, can't find it. eta

I did a search on what was upthread in this post, got the original somewhere.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025020015#post15

[Sissyk]

67. Thanks, uppity!

I appreciate it.

[geek tragedy]

66. I have it, here ya go:

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/05/03/putting-warren-farrells-notorious-comments-on-exciting-date-rape-in-context/comment-page-7/

[uppityperson]

68. ugh. It reminds me of an ex who warned me about what to expect, re-entering the dating scene

From your link

When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (

If I went to a movie with a man, I had agreed to have sex with him.
If I went to supper with a man, I had agreed to have sex with him.
If I had coffee with a man and paid for only my coffee, sex was optional, but if I paid for him, I agreed to have sex.

It was appalling hearing this from someone I'd spent a lot of time with, but verified my decision to make him an ex. I laughed in his face and told him he was the one missing the point of movie (to watch a movie together), supper (to have a meal together) or coffee (to socialize with each other while drinking coffee).

[uppityperson]

71. was that from July 2012 post as search gave me a post by him then with this in it, or more recent?

If it was from that 2 years ago post, I would also like to see more recent opinions if possible. Thank you.

As far as the author that wrote what you have excerpted, YUCK!

[geek tragedy]

72. will pm you.

[uppityperson]

73. thanks. I am willing to give people a chance to update opinions and appreciate seeing them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. "No means no" is easy. What "yes" means is sometimes easy, but sometimes hard. N.T.

[redqueen]

19. Well said. nt

[seabeyond]

14. no means no. and if a yes cause she is cowardly and cannot walk beyond the societal structures that

shame her and her sexuality when she is really wanting it. enough nos meaning no will convince her more than anything to bravely say... i want.

problem solved.

[uppityperson]

56. yup. eom

[redqueen]

21. Oh, look who else says no sometimes means yes:

http://www.returnofkings.com/26385/when-her-no-means-yes

[randys1]

49. What ridiculous site is that, I feel dirty now

[uppityperson]

58. Women RESPECT being raped. good god

[freshwest]

74. Oh, lookee! He's got a book! And a website! And he lives abroad! What cool beans! PM?

[ismnotwasm]

83. Ew

Yet somehow, when it’s all said and done, the woman is invariably happy that I didn’t listen to a single word of protest she uttered; that I barreled through her resistance nonchalantly and drove the ball to the basket. Women RESPECT this sexual insistence even if they aren’t acutely aware of it.

Sounds like rape to me. What a piece of shit

[Louisiana1976]

27. K&R

[Gravitycollapse]

46. It is an irrelevant question, really...

What should be asked is not whether the person meant no but whether the person said no. When someone says no, you stop. You don't try and interpret an underlying meaning. Even in the one in a billion chance the person says no but means yes, you stop. And if they get mad, which again is incredibly unlikely, you explain to them the importance of being honest in that situation.

I realize this may be semantic. But I just don't want someone strolling in here trying to argue that some women just like the fight or something disgusting like that. It is not a matter of interpretation. Never try and interpret a no.

[geek tragedy]

48. exactly, there is no interpretation to be done when a no has been spoken nt

[redqueen]

50. But do continually reevaluate apparent consent.

Sometimes people might actually be afraid to say no.

If they become hesitant, if they aren't participating fully, if they pull back at all, stop and talk. Ask if they're ok, if they want to continue, if they enjoy what is happening.

[geek tragedy]

52. which is excellent advice to avoid being a selfish, lousy lover

even aside from consent issues

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Absolutely. You put it perfectly.

[LadyHawkAZ]

60. Yep. n/t

[one_voice]

88. This..

What should be asked is not whether the person meant no but whether the person said no. When someone says no, you stop. You don't try and interpret an underlying meaning. Even in the one in a billion chance the person says no but means yes, you stop

[Sissyk]

59. Well, I ASSUME you mean the one member that picked option 2?

I haven't seen a single member that doesn't think "no means no". Could you give us a hint at least to the thread so we can look it up and strongly disagree with them?

[Iggo]

64. No always means Stop.

[etherealtruth]

70. Oh for Pete's sake NO means NO

It doesn't mean "yes", it doesn't mean "maybe" .... I am completely disgusted by this

[dickthegrouch]

78. If 'no' always meant 'no', we'd never ask a second time

How long one waits to ask again, or how one behaves on receiving the no answer is critical.

We ALL of us ask the question multiple ways or see if the answer might really be 'maybe' rather than 'no' before giving up.

[MadrasT]

79. "Maybe" is not good enough.

Enthusiastic "yes" should be the criteria for every sexual encounter.

[arcane1]

82. Speak for yourself.

[Hosnon]

80. Posting this poll is flame bait.

It's like complaining that people don't use the qualifer "not all" when talking about men.

Unless you have evidence that this is actually (and even remotely) a question on DU...

[geek tragedy]

91. several people have endorsed the work of an author who has made that claim.

this author is very popular in a certain user group at DU.

including the person who was insisting that I was insulting the intelligence of DUers by stating that said author was a rape apologist pig.

do a site search for "warren farrell" throw in terms like "date rape date fraud exciting family sex man nonverbal yeses not jail

[Trajan]

86. This question presumes an act had been perpetrated

No always means no, but it doesn't mean you can't keep asking the question ...

It's up to the parties involved to determine when merely ASKING the question has exceeded their own limits of tolerance ...

No always means no ... but minds can be changed ...

Until YES has been clearly uttered, then no sexual act may commence ... That doesn't mean the door for charming persuasion has been closed ...

[geek tragedy]

87. of course. no means no until the person says yes.

but, there is a difference between no not now and no get the fuck away from me.

[Trajan]

89. That option ...

... was not in the poll ....

[geek tragedy]

90. both are subsumed under "no means no" nt

[Nye Bevan]

94. The word "YES" does not always have to be "clearly uttered".

Certainly, no means no. But I think most of us understand that there are many, many ways to give consent nonverbally.

[dickthegrouch]

100. Thanks, that's what I was trying to convey /nt

Last edited Fri May 30, 2014, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

[Jamastiene]

92. In another thread, I just saw someone actually post that if anything bad happens

to a woman, it was basically her fault. That her victim-hood was self made if she didn't walk on eggshells, basically. Someone got misandried apparently?

The amount of bullshit here just keeps getting deeper and deeper. We are up to our necks in misogynists here lately.

[geek tragedy]

93. really? sure it wasn't snark?

not that it's not believable, given the shit we read here

[Jamastiene]

95. Yes, I'm sure it wasn't snark.

It was awful.

[geek tragedy]

96. we'lll see if the other misogynist pigs are over at discussionist or whether they're

here to bail their fellow swine out

[redqueen]

99. Wow. And a jury voted to leave it. I'd like to see the results.

there are ways to safe guard yourself if you dont feel safe walking home get a cab afraid someone might spike your punch dont go out/leave without a friend. afraid to be alone in a room with someone you just met why would you do that anyway. fundamentalists tell their men crap well you know not to date a fundamentalist man. these victim scenarios you describe are self made

[davidthegnome]

97. Okay.

I'd like to see a thread where this poster is arguing that point. Do you have a link?

[geek tragedy]

98. do a site/google search for this phrase:

"the no means no meme is bullshit"

the exact phrase from the poll

that viewpoint has advocates in a very unsurprising group

[redqueen]

101. Did you find it yet? Got anything else to say? nt

[KamaAina]

105. Um, you two, you do realize that we can see who you are

with the Show Usernames function, right?

[geek tragedy]

106. "the no means no meme is bullshit" = a direct quote from a DUer nt