Rogen, Apatow surprisingly unsympathetic to accusation that their movies caused IV killings.

[Warren DeMontague]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-seth-rogen-judd-apatow-rebuke-ann-hornaday-isla-vista-slayings-20140527-story.html

On Monday, Rogen directed a tweet at Hornaday that said, "I find your article horribly insulting and misinformed." The "Neighbors" star followed up with a second tweet that said, "how dare you imply that me getting girls in movies caused a lunatic to go on a rampage."

Apatow also tweeted in response to Rogen's messages, adding, "She [Hornaday] uses tragedy to promote herself with idiotic thoughts."

[BeyondGeography]

1. Why should they be sympathetic?

The writer could have made her point without naming names. Reads like she had a score (and a trivial one at that...Seth Rogen?) to settle. I wouldn't play along either.

[alphafemale]

49. That was a jaw dropping stupid article.

It's like blaming superhero cartoons because a 16 yr old jumped out of a window with a towel tied around his neck because he thought it could make him fly.

And goofy looking guys often DO get the girls. Be kind, and attentive and funny. That goes a long, long way.

"I am going to be openly hostile to you. Have sex with me ARRRGHH! I HATE YOU!"

Tragic from all sides.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. Well, given that it was a bullshit argument to begin with.....

[CBGLuthier]

3. Stupid accusation deserved to be answered harshly.

How about we blame the news media. How about we blame all men. how about we blame all women. How about we blame all repressed homosexuals. How about we blame every movie, rock song, bad play or whatever the fuck we want to until we finally have blamed everyone and everything until we arrive at the real truth. Bad shit happens and there is not a fucking thing you can do about it.

End of the god damned conversation.

[MADem]

76. How about we blame the unmedicated, untreated, antisocial asshole who did the crime?

That would work for me. Probably most people too, I should wager.

Blaming a fattish, schlumpy movie actor for playing the endearing goofball who gets the girl in a romcom isn't REAL.

Anyone who does that needs to plug back in to reality.

[Agschmid]

4. What a ludicrous accusation!

[redqueen]

5. Besides you and Seth Rogen, who else said they "caused" it?

I wonder if any of the above commenters bothered to read what she actually said, as opposed to your/Rogen's spin.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. It's not "my" spin.

Actually, I'm a little too busy making sure my friends who actually live down there are okay, to be trying to score some ideological axe-grinding points on this particular deal.

[redqueen]

11. You made up the headline using his spin. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

14. HE himself used the word "caused".

However, I'm deeply sorry if my OP title didn't meet your rigorous standards for ...whatever.

[redqueen]

18. Yeah, he made up the accusation and you just decided his spin made a better headline.

Drama!

[Warren DeMontague]

19. The thread is ABOUT his response to the WP editorial.

Shocking, then, that it should reflect his stated opinion.

[X_Digger]

23. Ouch, I think I need sunscreen.

I think I got a second degree flash burn standing way back here.

[opiate69]

27. Here ya go

Cheers

[RiffRandell]

79. I know! nt

[BainsBane]

82. Really? Then what is this about?

[Warren DeMontague]

110. I already answered her.

The thread is about Rogen and Apatow's response to the column, so it's probably not that hugely surprising that the thread is about Rogen and Apatow's response to the column.

[RiffRandell]

118. Perhaps some people need more clarification.

Instead of 2-3 sentences, maybe you should write 2-3 long paragraphs that don't make any sense.

[msanthrope]

9. I read her stupid in full. She gratuitously mentioned them, she deserves the feedback they gave her.

Just another stupid person speculating on horror and tragedy for a paycheck.

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Here's what she said:

In a column published Sunday, Hornaday wrote that "Rodger's rampage may be a function of his own profound distress, but it also shows how a sexist movie monoculture can be toxic for women and men alike."

She continued, "How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like 'Neighbors' and feel, as Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of 'sex and fun and pleasure'? How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, 'It's not fair'?

"Movies may not reflect reality, but they powerfully condition what we desire, expect and feel we deserve from it."

-----

She appears to blame "sexist movie monoculture" and explicitly mentions "Judd Apatow comedies." So there is that.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. And again, this is clearly someone who has never been within 10 miles of Isla Vista.

[onenote]

26. So would Hornaday be happier if in Apatow's movies

Rogen doesn't get the girl and only some handsome stud ends up in a relationship?

[CrawlingChaos]

57. Seth Rogan is not a good looking man

And yet, it is unthinkable that we would see him paired onscreen with a similarly less-than-conventionally beautiful woman.

Now try to imagine a world where a female movie star who is physically unattractive walks off into the sunset with a handsome stud. Not in one instance, but in movie after movie after movie after movie after movie.... We're so used to seeing it the other way around that it's almost impossible to picture the reverse.

You don't think this relentless messaging makes the world a more hostile place for women? Or that it reflects societal attitudes that are just plain sick? I certainly do.

[AngryAmish]

60. Do you have any data to back up your supposition?

[theHandpuppet]

80. Good post

Can't tell you how many times I've thought exactly the same thing. But don't expect a lot of support or understanding here.

[redqueen]

81. What's amusing is that someone above actually asked for "data" to prove it.

Like having functional eyes isn't enough.

[RiffRandell]

84. Oh, but if a man made a negative comment about a woman's looks on DU

I don't think you'd be laughing.

The hypocrisy never ends.

[redqueen]

85. LOL

[RiffRandell]

83. Bullshit.

Knocked Up made fun of the fact his character was beneath Katherine Heigl's, both in the looks and financial department.

That was also a theme in Take This Waltz with Michelle Williams, and not to be a spoiler, but again you are wrong.

Pineapple Express was written to have a pretty (whatever your definition is) love interest because his character was supposed to feel insecure about their relationship.

Unless you've been living under a rock, I'm sure you've heard of the HBO show Girls. You know, the one where Judd Apatow is an executive producer and was responsible for getting the show on HBO?

Some people would say "Lena Dunham is not a good looking woman", maybe even call her fat, yet she gets naked in almost every episode (her choice as she's the writer) and in one episode hooked up with an EXTREMELY nice looking guy (Patrick Wilson) that some might just consider out of her league that played a wealthy doctor in Brooklyn that wanted a relationship with her and she dumped him. She's no supermodel, but doesn't suffer from shortage of sex on the show; that's for sure.

So if a man on this site said "***** (insert female name) is not attractive, he would probably get a ration of shit about commenting on a woman's looks, yet men here get a ration of shit for having an attractive celebrity thread, which includes men and women. Can't win.

This is Seth Rogen's wife, Lauren Miller; they were together for several years before he became a huge star, got married about 3 years ago, and in an interview on Howard Stern (freakoutfreakoutfreakout) when asked if he had a prenup, he said no.

Considering he's "not a good looking man", I'd say he did pretty well:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[redqueen]

86. LMAO!

Not only are you attempting to actually deny that the average guy/hot woman theme doesn't exist, you're saying one show on HBO where an average woman dates one hot guy means it's all equal?!

[RiffRandell]

96. Average?

I have no idea what you're referring to.

[MindMover]

108. We have an ignore button on DU for a very good reason

[CrawlingChaos]

119. I can't believe you think any of that helps your case

First off, the film making fun of the fact that Seth Rogan gets women hotter than himself means jack squat. The point is, he gets them and we, the audience, know he's going to wind up with the hot woman. It's quite common for filmmakers to joke about the looks disparity between onscreen couples - that loathsome toad Woody Allen often did the same, but he ALWAYS made sure to cast himself beside a woman many orders of magnitude more attractive than he was. It's what we've all come to expect and, tragically, what seems "normal" to us.

And younger - let's not forget that! Try to imagine Sean Connery paired romantically with, say, Angela Lansbury. How about Harrison Ford with Jessica Walter? They're about the same age, if I'm not mistaken. You'll see many actors paired with MUCH younger women, but when have you ever seen the reverse?

I can't believe you think "Girls" makes your case! Just the opposite, I'm afraid. The very thing "Girls" is known for is that it is an anomaly. Something we're not used to seeing - a show with average-looking female leads and, OMG, it just blows people's minds to see a non-supermodel type naked onscreen, apparently. Every time I've ever seen Lena Dunham she's fielding questions about the angry response to her nude scenes, or the thick skin she's had to develop to cope with attacks on her appearance. This does not help your case.

It's worth noting that the other thing "Girls" is known for is it's nepotism factor; that every single female lead is the daughter of someone wealthy/famous/influential. As much as I'd like to think the show represents some kind of progress, I think it's more like a bunch of rich kids capitalizing on the quasi-hipster "mumblecore" indie film movement. It's a one-off.

And what in holy hell does Seth Rogan's real life wife have to do with anything?? Talk about beyond irrelevant!

[redqueen]

124. I can!

[treestar]

121. Yes, she was making that point

It's part of male sexual entitlement. The girl should be hot, even if they are not.

[Ferretherder]

122. Hey, I got one for ya'...

...how many TV sitcoms are there out there that DON'T HAVE the somewhat attractive, level-headed woman married to a shlumpy, 'dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks', wannabe cool-guy who has to be taught a lesson in life every week before his and his whole families' lives spin outta sight down the crapper?

...could almost make a guy think, 'wow, am I Albert Einstein, and just didn't know it?'

[CrawlingChaos]

123. you're describing a very tired TV trope which is sometimes called "oaf and shrew"

If you think these stereotypes result in anything remotely positive for women, you must be smoking the bad shit.

And it goes without saying that in the vast majority of these shows, as in all forms of popular entertainment, the wife must be way hotter than the husband.

[MicaelS]

38. You don't call out famous people by name ....

And their specific works, and not get a reaction. Ann Hornaday got a taste of her own medicine.

[AngryAmish]

58. Actually, I'm sure it was Dungeons and Dragons.

[phil89]

6. But I look to them for intellectual guidance!

Seriously, Apatow was pulling the unsubstantiated "Mental illness made him do it" nonsense. Vulgar display of ignorance.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. I don't know what caused it, but I do find it interesting that people who've never set foot in IV

are suddenly experts on the place.

It's not terribly surprising, for instance, that someone living there would think college life is a giant, 24-7 party. They wouldn't need to go to a Seth Rogen movie to get that impression.

[Comrade Grumpy]

12. I once rioted there, but that was back when Ronald Reagan was governor.

And I claim no special insight on the contemporary IV lifestyle.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Did you burn the Bank of America?

Now THAT'S the IV I remember!

[Comrade Grumpy]

24. Not me personally. But I watched it burn. And cheered.

But those were different times...

[Warren DeMontague]

25. It has changed, for sure.

And not for the better.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Personally I look to 10 foot tall 3D blue aliens for intellectual guidance.

If I'm going to spring 10 bucks on a movie ticket, they better be 10 foot tall blue 3D aliens, I tell you what.

[geek tragedy]

17. if a person's day job is to write about stuff like this, they

really need to do it smarter than the WP writer did.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. It's pretty shoddy, to say the least.

Also, anyone who thinks an Isla Vista resident would need to go see "Neighbors" to believe that college life was full of crazy partying.... ah, here I repeat myself.

[geek tragedy]

32. of course, ironic thing is Seth Rogen is married to Lauren Miller

so, probably not the best example from the get-go.

another dose of irony, Rogen based on input for his wife had the Neighbors script rewritten so that the wife wasn't the stereotype nagging, no-fun wife but instead was as fun as the husband.

Because, that's usually what happens in real life.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I think the only Seth Rogen movie I've ever seen was the pineapple pot one.

I barely ever go to the theater, anyway. Movies mostly suck.

[Raine1967]

22. Honest question:

and I will preface this that (at this point) I don't Hornaday's point was terrible, it was terribly made.

Arthur Chu wrote an interesting piece about this entire scenario. It was titled: Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds he makes, imo an very eloquent case, One paragraph gave me a moment of pause:

We are not Lewis from Revenge of the Nerds, we are not Steve Urkel from Family Matters, we are not Preston Myers from Can’t Hardly Wait, we are not Seth Rogen in every movie Seth Rogen has ever been in, we are not fucking Mario racing to the castle to beat Bowser because we know there’s a princess in there waiting for us.

Has Seth Rogen called out Mr.Chu?

Hornaday was making a point, and I will admit that she could have made it better, but she ended her piece with this, and it is something that a lot of people are missing:

Every year, San Diego State University researcher Martha Lauzen releases a “Celluloid Ceiling” report in which she delivers distressing statistics regarding the state of women in Hollywood. This year, she found that women made up just 16 percent of directors, writers, producers, cinematographers and editors working on the top 250 movies of 2013; similarly, women accounted for just 15 percent of protagonists in those films.

Even if 51 percent of our movies were made by women, Elliot Rodger still would have been seriously ill. But it’s worth examining who gets to be represented on screen, and how. It makes sense to ask, as cartoonist Alison Bechdel does in her eponymous Bechdel Test, whether a movie features (1) at least two named female characters who (2) talk to each other about (3) something besides a man. And it bears taking a hard look at whether we’re doing more subtle damage to our psyches and society by so drastically limiting our collective imagination. As Rodger himself made so grievously clear, we’re only as strong as the stories we tell ourselves.

I had no objection to her article. I still believe that Rogen and Apatow are taking this far too personally. It is worth examining, it is worth noting.

But, Arthur Chu is a guy and a nerd, and Ann Hornaday is a women. Have either of these two men called Chu out? If not why not?

ETA link to Hornaday's article, which also has a rebuttal to the criticism. here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-a-final-videotaped-message-a-sad-reflection-of-the-sexist-stories-we-so-often-see-on-screen/2014/05/25/dec7e7ea-e40d-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html

[Humanist_Activist]

28. Because Arthur Chu isn't calling Seth Rogen out?

I read his article and agree with it, mostly because it was written by someone within the culture, and you can tell, Hornaday's article is from the perspective of someone who oversimplifies how much influence the media has and is ignorant of the same culture. It reads much like the whole "video games/comics/rock n' roll causes violence" crap that has been debunked, again and again.

[Raine1967]

33. Hornaday was writing of the film culture, something she knows.

and to a lesser extent, I think he was calling out rogen, just not as in your face as Hornaday did.

Would people still find hubris with what she said if she didn't mention names?

[Humanist_Activist]

36. Mr. Chu was calling out a large subsection of nerd culture...

that is into self-pitying lonerism, for lack of a better term.

What Seth Rogen does is merely a symptom, not a cause, an outward use of the "hollywood nerd" trope, which, as Chu points out, is an old one, dating back to the 1980s, at least.

[MicaelS]

40. I think the use of Rogen and Apatow's names, plus ...

The name of their films caused the backlash. I know if it had been me, I would have reacted just like Rogen and Apatow.

[onenote]

42. Hornaday has never been particularly critical of Apatow's movies

She even gave Neighbors, the movie she now cites as an example of what is wrong with film culture, 2 stars out of 4. She has described Freaks and Geeks as "brilliant" and found redeeming value in movies such as 40 Year Old Virgin, Knocked Up, Pineapple Express. She's never been much of a Rogen fan, but loves Paul Rudd.

You would think from Hornaday's comments that Apatow and Rogen define movie culture. But they really haven't made that many movies and they haven't been massive successes. Indeed, Apatow's most successful movie was Bridesmaids, and even only ranked around number 15 among the top grossing movies of the year, far below Hangover II, a movie that involved neither Apatow nor Rogen.

So it would seem that whatever Ms. Hornaday's point, she did a miserable job illustrating it.

[Raine1967]

44. Watch her video response at the link to her article.

As I said, I think she didn't do a good job in initially making her case. Her response to the criticism was very good. I understood what she was saying.

[treestar]

39. Neither did she

She mentioned his movies.

She didn't say he caused them, and his OTT response is wrong on that.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Actually, from what I gather from her article, she thinks those movies "conditioned"

Rodgers to feel entitled to a girlfriend.

Frankly I don't see a difference between saying that and saying those movies caused and/or contributed to the shooting, its a slightly different word choice. In addition, I think she credits movies far too much.

[Blue_Adept]

102. High school conditions people to it then.

Considering that's where most people really see it and the real social material that happens there, movies are just an outsized reflection of what people experience in high school. I'm sure if he was frustrated by the movies representations, he was far more disconnected because of whatever he saw in real life with real people.

[Humanist_Activist]

107. I think our entire culture expects us, from teenagehood on, to try to find validation in others...

and when we can't find it fast enough, to think of ourselves as failures.

[onenote]

47. This is what she said:

How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like “Neighbors” and feel, as Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of “sex and fun and pleasure”? How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, “It’s not fair”?


Here is an answer: easily over 10 million people, including a sizable number of students, probably watched Neighbors, including several million overseas. And exactly one went on a murderous rampage. Which suggests that whatever linkage Hornaday was trying to draw should be viewed pretty skeptically.

And as far as movies making viewers feel "it's not fair" -- well, it wouldn't come as a surprise that for every 10 picked on kids that was given hope by a movie like the Karate Kid, there may be one who sees the movie as depicting a happy ending that eludes them.

[CrawlingChaos]

62. one murderous rampage, but how much misogyny and sexual assault?

I think Hornaday was trying to shed some light on the way these movies contribute to disturbing societal attitudes towards women.

[redqueen]

66. Thank you for your posts in this thread. nt

[kwassa]

70. Absolutely correct. Hornaday is right.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. You should tweet Rogen directly, and ask him.

I don't mean that snarkily, I am serious.

I am not Seth Rogen (shocking, I know) but If I had to guess I'd say that the reason for the direct response to this particular piece at this particular time is not so much because one commenter is female, but rather because the admittedly badly phrased point was made directly in the aftermath of a horrible tragedy, and specifically implied (Rogen's words, again) a measure of direct culpability for a specific series of acts of violence.

[Raine1967]

46. Did you read her original piece?

-- particularly where she references the culture that he grew up around?

He did not grow up in Isla Vista.

I just think -- in all honestly that while Seth Rogen has every right to be upset, I think he is taking this personally. It's not like he's being accused of being a misogamist. He was used as an example of a very male oriented cutler in hollywood.

She went on to say that there are not enough female voices in Hollywood.

I'm sure Rogen will be just fine. He's a good actor. Hornaday was talking about a much bigger picture.

[onenote]

48. Can you draw the link between having more female voices in Hollywood

and this guy feeling better about himself? Did Hunger Games -- based on books written by women -- make him feel good? After all, Katniss has two male admirers. How would that make him feel, particularly if he identified with Peeta, who seemed (at least in the first portions of the story arc, to be the sad puppy dog being toyed with by Katniss.

Yes, the culture of Hollwood often rewards shallowness and values surface beauty over substance. Still not sure what that has to do with Apatow and Rogen, who's movies often turn that convention on its head.

[opiate69]

30. Was the Chu piece published in a major media outlet comparable to Washington Post?

If not, I suspect that would play into it as well.

[Raine1967]

31. I would consider the Daily beast a major outlet.

It is the former Newsweek, and I do believe it has a large online footprint. I get Wapo delivered at home, as I am in the DC region, I wonder if Rogen and Apatow do.

I see your larger point. That said, until recently, I would bet money that more people knew about Arthur Chu and his Jeapardy appearance than WaPo's film critic.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. It's a fine source for the latest dish on that saucy royal family, i say! Brilliant!

Seriously, newsweek crash and burned. At least time can occasionally put together something like the health costs issue.

[redqueen]

37. Thanks for the lnk to Chu's piece. nt

[Raine1967]

45. You're welcome. nt.

[JVS]

41. Since when do accusers expect or even deserve sympathy from the accused?

Isn't the default attitude of celebrities toward movie critics one of mild contempt?

[951-Riverside]

50. She's right. The Movie, Music and Gaming (Entertainment) industry share responsibility with the NRA

The Gaming Industry:

The Music Industry:

[Refrain]
I know you want me baby, I think I want you too
(I think I love you baby) I think I love you too
I'm here to save you girl, come be in Shady's world
I wanna grow together, let's let our love unfurl
You know you want me baby, you know I want you too
They call me Superman, I'm here to rescue you
I wanna save you girl, come be in Shady's world
Ooh boy you drive me crazy, bitch you make me hurl

[Verse 1]
They call me Superman, leap tall hoes in a single bound, I'm single now
Got no ring on this finger now, I'd never let another chick bring me down
In a relationship, save it bitch, babysit? you make me sick
Superman ain't savin' shit, girl you can jump on Shady's dick
Straight from the hip, cut to the chase, I tell a mothafuckin' slut to her face
Play no games, say no names, ever since I broke up with what's-her-face
I'm a different man, kiss my ass, kiss my lips? Bitch why ask
Kiss my dick, get my cash? I'd rather have you whip my ass
Don't put out, I'll put you out, won't get out, I'll push you out
Puss blew out, poppin' shit, wouldn't piss on fire to put you out
Am I too nice? Buy you ice? Bitch if you died, wouldn't buy you life
What you tryna be my new wife? What you Mariah? Fly through twice

[Hook]
But I do know one thing though, bitches, they come they go
Saturday through Sunday, Monday, Monday through Sunday, yo
Maybe I'll love you one day, maybe we'll someday grow
Til then just sit your drunk ass on that fucking runway ho
Cause I can't be your Superman, can't be your Superman

[Verse 2]
Don't get me wrong, I love these hoes, it's no secret, everybody knows
Yeah we fucked, bitch so what, that's about as far as your buddy goes
We'll be friends, I call you again, I chase you around every bar you attend
Never know what kinda car I be in, we'll see how much you be partyin' then
You don't want that, neither do I, I don't wan' flip when I see you with guys
Too much pride, between you and I not a jealous man but females lie
But I guess that's just what sluts do, how could it ever be just us two
I'd never love you enough to trust you, we just met and I just fucked you

[Hook + Refrain]

[Verse 3]
First thing you say, (I'm not fazed, I hang around big stars all day
I don't see what the big deal is anyway, you're just plain old Marshall to me)
Ooh yeah, girl run that game, (Hailie Jade, I love that name
Love that tattoo, what's that say? "Rot in Pieces," uh, that's great)
First off you don't know Marshall at all so don't grow partial
That's ammo for my arsenal, I'll slap you off that bar stool
There goes another lawsuit, leave handprints all across you
Good Lordy whoadie, you must be gone off that water bottle
You want what you can't have, ooh girl that's too damn bad
Don't touch what you can't grab, end up with two backhands
Put anthrax on a Tampax and slap you 'til you can't stand
Girl you just blew your chance, don't mean to ruin your plans

The entertainment industry promotes violence and misogyny while the NRA makes sure violent misogynists have access to firearms.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. I don't buy the blame movies, video games, etc. line.

This kid was prescribed anti-psychotics, and wasn't taking them.

That's not to scapegoat the mentally ill, but he had significant profound problems that were NOT caused by the media.

[951-Riverside]

54. Just like that gun he used, the views in his head didn't magically get there.

The entertainment industry seeded many of his views and the NRA gave him the means to act on those views.

Early 2013 in Orange County.

O.C. killer an obsessive video gamer

Ali Syed was a 20-year-old loner who took occasional computer classes at a community college and spent a lot of time alone in his room playing video games, said an Orange County Sheriff's Department spokesman.

How he crossed paths with 20-year-old Courtney Aoki remains a mystery.

Early Tuesday morning, Aoki was in Syed's bedroom, inside the town house he shared with his parents in the upscale Ladera Ranch development. Gunshots rang out from the bedroom, and Syed ran out of the house and drove away, police said. Aoki was dead from multiple wounds from a shotgun Syed's father had bought him about a year ago.


So began a rampage through Orange County in which Syed killed three people and injured three others before taking his own life, police said.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/20/local/la-me-0221-oc-shooting-20130221

[onenote]

55. And millions of people heard Helter Skelter and went on killing sprees

Oh wait. Only one twisted fuck did that.

As a causal factor for rage crimes, the movies, music, and games are pretty inefficient.

[951-Riverside]

59. Interesting enough, gun nuts frequently use your argument. n/t

[Shivering Jemmy]

77. While I am sympathetic to your larger point

This one is a logical fallacy: "guilt by association"

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Like I said, I don't buy the blame video games, movies, music angle.

I don't think media gives anyone ideas they wouldn't have had anyway. If the OC killer were an obsessive masturbator, would it have been the masturbation's fault?

[951-Riverside]

63. Re: " I don't think media gives anyone ideas they wouldn't have had anyway."

...and "Guns don't kill people, people do!"

Face it, we are influenced in some way by what we see and hear in the media, this very conversation is proof of that.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. right, those are BOTH arguments and declarative statements, which means... they're the same.

Sort of like how the statements

"a regular oil change is good for the maintenance of your car"

and

"leprechauns live inside my refrigerator and steal my lettuce"

are both declarative statements, and as such on equal factual footing.

[GeorgeGist]

65. You're probably right ...

but it troubles me that sociopathic behavior is often treated as rewarding.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. I guess, but it also troubles me that Eminem's lyrics are blamed when a Nickelback fan kills people.

Not that I'm any sort of Eminem fan, but...

[Jamastiene]

64. He played Wow, one of the nerdiest games out there.

There is nothing in that game that would cause anyone to want to go out and kill a bunch of people.

[LostOne4Ever]

78. Have you ever PVP'd in WoW

Trust me, after doing that for any extend amount of time you will want to go out and kill people....especially the game's developers!










*This post is a work of satire and not meant to be taken seriously.

[Jamastiene]

95. ROFL!

I caught on before the * part,

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Also, according to FB, Elliot Rodgers wasn't so much an eminem fan, as he was a fan of Katy Perry

Lady Gaga, and... Nickelback.

I'm not sure how that gels with your theory, here.

[Doctor_J]

52. Gee I wonder why

Some attention-starved critic assigns them blame for the mass murder perpetrated by a mentally ill gun nut, and they have the temerity to be angry!?!?

If Hornaday is lucky they won't sue her for slander. They make silly movies that people laugh and go, "Awwwwwww" at. That's it. Rodger didn't go on his rampage because Rogen had screen sex with Katherine Heigl.

I wish we could keep the outrage reality-based. This kind of hyperbole sets the entire discussion back.

[Skittles]

53. thanking Mr. Apatow

show these delusional assholes no mercy

[kwassa]

71. sorry, Hornaday is correct. read her entire piece.

I don't care if you kick my butt.

[Skittles]

74. I saw Fox News asking if Hollywood is to blame

are movies sexist? yes

are they the main problem? F*** no

[sendero]

67. All of this hand wringing is pathetic..

..... the man was INSANE. Not just a mysogynist, who after all started his killing spree by KILLING HIS ROOMMATES, but a totally whacked out deludinoid who proclaimed himself a GOD.

Movies? Video games? Tens or even hundreds of millions of people watch/play this stuff and they don't kill anyone. "Go figure".

[X_Digger]

72. It's a bloody tabula rasa on which people get to paint their favorite societal ill.

You have one contingent who claim, "It's the misogyny, stupid!"
Another claims, "It's the repressed homosexuality, stupid!"
Yet another claims, "It's the SSRIs, stupid!"
And someone else claims, "It's the mentally ill, stupid!"
Then we have, "It's the video games, stupid!"

[valerief]

106. But we all know, "It's the guns, stupid!" nt

[X_Digger]

117. Right on time. I wondered how long that'd take. Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[kwassa]

73. Yet. He got his belief from somewhere.

Somewhere he came to believe that he was owed sexual favors from beautiful women.

Regardless of his own attractiveness.

Where would such beliefs come from?

[Warren DeMontague]

75. He also believed he was 'entitled' to get on an amusement park ride at 6 years old despite

not being tall enough to meet the height requirement, a fact which chafed him enough to list it among his many life grievances in his rambling 140 page manifesto. Somewhere he came to believe that he should have been allowed on that roller coaster and deserved vengeance for the cruelly unfair treatment he received at the hands of the wooden cutout of Wile E. Coyote that said "you must be this tall to ride, pardner".

He also believed he was divine and not, as such, human.

"where would such beliefs come from"?

Probably the simplest answer is the lack of anti-psychotic medication he was prescribed but refused to take.

[The2ndWheel]

87. Jealousy, envy

Things that predate civilization. Could be just someone's basic reaction to the experience of their existence. Everyone doesn't go around killing people because something goes wrong in their life, or doesn't take their medication, or whatever. Who will or who won't, you never know.

I'm sure there are many avenues that have to come together to make a person do what he did. You probably don't go from A straight to Z on that one.

[redqueen]

88. It is getting worse.

Did you see this thread?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025022413

[The2ndWheel]

90. Maybe it's the internet's fault then

For allowing people of like mind to get together and reinforce their sad tales. For allowing such a specific niche to exist. For easily allowing such a specific niche to exist for like minded people.

If this guy was as shy and quiet in real life as everyone is saying he was, without the internet, who is he going to talk to about his feelings? Maybe he ends up seeing he's completely alone, and just shoots himself. Or, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he ends up finding somewhere to fit in, maybe he still kills a bunch of people, or maybe he finds a way to slog on through his lonely, sexless, whatever life until he dies at 67.

Was it this that made him do it? Was it that? It was probably some combination of everything during this guy's life.

[redqueen]

93. Of course it is a combination of things.And this writer said he *may have been influenced*.

I guess Seth Rogen needed to see his name in the news again. No one else she mentioned (or anyone that Chu mentioned, either) felt the need to overreact as Rogen did. But his angry and misleading tweet sure got him some attention.

[The2ndWheel]

94. She basically called him out

Outsized frat boy, shlubby arrested adolescent. That's clearly Seth Rogan. Rogan and Apatow, who she called out by name, are pretty much joined at the hip.

Maybe those kind of moves did do something to Rodger. That point could be made without specifying those two men more than others. When you get a finger pointed at you, and have it said that you're influencing something that happened because of the brain chemistry of someone you never knew existed, you're probably going to defend yourself.

Maybe those kinds of movies had nothing to do with what Rodger did. If that's the case, you're calling someone out completely unfairly.

Even if Rodger had said that Seth Rogan getting girls in movies was the reason he went on a killing spree, Seth Rogan still can't be blamed for that, in any way. You can't expect someone not to live their life for fear that someone else might do something as a result.

Call out the movie industry if you want. Call out Seth Rogan or Judd Apatow if you want. If anyone involved defends themselves though, that's sort of a normal reaction, since nobody else but the killer had a direct link to the killing.

[Louisiana1976]

109. Well said. It's silly to blame movies and/or video games for the actions of one

seriously disturbed individual.

[Harmony Blue]

120. People are using it to promote a agenda for their own gain

I think instead of analyzing the why this happened people are more interested in using this as a way to drive home their own issues they are passionate about.

[Sissyk]

89. It's time we stop blaming everyone but the killer.

He refused to take his medication from everything I have read. Blame him.

It's not the fault of women, men, movies, games, guns, knives, etc. etc. etc. He may have latched on to a "cause" but that is not what killed those innocent people.

Here's what concerns me. All the finger pointing. All the blame games. It still puts his name front and center in all our media. The next person that has these same mental problems, and may be refusing their medication, is watching and seeing all the glory and praise (in their minds) that this dead guy is getting. What is that person now planning to top what Rodgers did?

She had a point to make and could have done it without blaming actors and movies. But, that would not have given her the same coverage. She went the easy route. Let's blame something, or someone, besides the killer. And, again. Let's keep it front and center in the media for the next killer to see.

[closeupready]

92. What about his parents?

[Sissyk]

97. I don't know them. I don't know what they'd done for him.

I read they tried several ways to get him to take his medication. I read they even notified the police themselves. That had to be very hard to do. So, no. I don't blame the parents.

Personally, I've known a family that has done every possible thing they can for a child for 18 years of her life. At 18, she moved out and has refused to take her medication or get further medical help. I worry constantly about what she might do to herself or others. But, it's not the parents fault. Nothing they did in raising this girl made her have severe mental problems. There are four other children that try to help but their sibling will have nothing to do with them. In this case, I do not blame the parents. I do not even blame the child because I'm not sure she is even aware, or has empathy, to change things.

With that said, I also know parents that the children were raised by the television, video games, very little interaction outside of school. In that case, I do blame the parents.

Parenting is hard work. Sometimes you do the best job possible and things still turn out heartbreaking. Sometimes you do a shitty job and they turn out fine.

[closeupready]

98. A lot of truth in what you posted here.

Thanks.

[Sissyk]

100. You're very welcome!

[Warren DeMontague]

112. They also were apparently en route from LA to try to get him due to the posting of his videos

when he went on his rampage, and they heard about it on the radio.

What a nightmare.

[Sissyk]

113. I didn't know that.

It's horrifying to even think about.

Apparently, they did care even though according to some they're rich, so therefore they didn't.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Yeah.

I had to look for a link that wasn't the Daily Fail, but apparently it's been reported that they were frantically driving up from LA. In my experience that's about an hour drive or so.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/california-shooting-elliot-rodgers-parents-3606772

[Sissyk]

115. That makes my heart break for them.

I have two sons, one of which is black. Stories like this, Trayvon, etc. just sends cold chills up my spine; which leaves very little time for me to place blame.

I've stayed away from his manifesto, tape, most all articles about him and articles placing blame because of the above. So, thanks for posting that link and information for me. It is appreciated.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. As I've said elsewhere, I have more than a slight personal connection to that piece of real estate

physically and emotionally.

My heart has been breaking for IV, for the town I once knew. It's hard for me to be rational about it, and I'm certainly not going to jump in with both feet while people who've never set foot there try to make it about this that or the other.

[closeupready]

91. There's lots of $$$ in violent and misogynistic films.

So, that's the end of the discussion.

[Sissyk]

99. If it was the end of discussion, we wouldn't still be discussing it.

lol! Maybe you meant your mind is made up?

There's lots of money in comedies, romcom, musicals, and Little House on the Prairie types. If it wasn't, the industry wouldn't make them.

[closeupready]

101. Right, I guess I meant not "end of discussion", lol

I guess I meant, it's important to keep in mind that money is a big factor here.

[Sissyk]

103. I agree with that.

Money rules the world. Or, so I've heard somewhere.

Personally, I wish we'd get to where love, caring and kindness ruled the world.

backatcha. And thanks for the civil and polite conversation. It is appreciated from this end.

[closeupready]

105. YW. Have a great weekend.

[valerief]

104. Crazy. Everyone knows it's James Bond's fault (Sean Connery, mostly).

As Bond, he used women like Kleenex and handled all problems with weapons.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. He had a robo-liver, too.

Imagine all the alcoholism he was responsible for.