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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsZimmerman's grandfather connected to the CIA - this explains why the murderer is not in jail
Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)
R.W. Zimmermann was working for the Central Intelligence Agency in Langley Virginia after his retirement from foreign service diplomacy. George Zimmermann's grandfather diplomatic career allotted travel to many international locations, ending his service as Consulate General in Barcelona.http://www.reachoutjobsearch.com/
snooper2
(30,151 posts)politics mixed with searches for people who are looking for a job LOL (which is usually apolitical)
Actually, the more I think about it the more sense it makes
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)we have politics to blame for that.
obey
(66 posts)Kinda covers up the connection.
Sneaky bass turds, clever too.
mainer
(12,022 posts)Which indicates he did drop the N during his lifetime.
obey
(66 posts)as was Robert Allen Zimmerman who later changed HIS name to Bob Dylan.
I sense a pattern beginning to emerge here.
mainer
(12,022 posts)"Active since March 24" -- after Trayvon Martin case became well known.
Posting extensively on how the CIA is not connected to the Zimmermans.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)a bit.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)You're not fooling anyone
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Im just not convinced of the connection between CIA and SPD/SA. Why would the CIA have an intrest in protecting a murderer in Sanford? Even if Zimmys father is CIA, which is still speculation, what does that have to do with a local PD?
belcffub
(595 posts)these threads have all the markings of a great group psychosis
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)and has been from the moment he murdered a 17 year old boy to the present.
mainer
(12,022 posts)Which could be used to bring pressure to bear on certain law enforcement officers and prosecutors.
Or it could mean his retired intelligence buddies will step in to help an old pal's troublesome son.
Something caused law enforcement and the prosecutor's office to back off. Big time.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)onenote
(42,700 posts)It just doesn't add up that daddy has the ability to force the PD and state's attorney to risk their careers, but daddy doesn't pull a few strings to get Georgie a nice desk job where he sits around and does nothing for a weekly paycheck.
I still think that the Sanford PD and State's attorney were perfectly capable of mucking this up on their own.
mainer
(12,022 posts)who got kicked out of a previous security job after going bonkers and injuring a woman.
onenote
(42,700 posts)in a job -- not necessarily one that required a security clearance? Does that make sense?
mainer
(12,022 posts)than getting him a job he wouldn't be able to hold anyway.
If your kid faces prison for possible murder charge, you'll call in all your chits.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)slampoet
(5,032 posts)...this is somewhat typical.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If you have some thing to say, spit it out.
onenote
(42,700 posts)Oops I did it again.
Didn't I?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)murderer's grandpappy was CIA, and his dad was a magistrate judge; 4) Because the supporters of the murderer are making the deceased victim out to be the perp; 5) Because the murderer was a psychotic, violent loser and he's receiving treatment as if he had been Mother Teresa; 6: Because the murderer's pals and supporters are lying through their ass ever more profusely, and it's becoming evident; 7) Because the population of the U.S. is clearly seeing through the bullshit.
Want me to name more reasons why it's interesting?
onenote
(42,700 posts)Sorry you misunderstood the context of my comment.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)But I equate arguing by question to the right-wing tactics. "Is Obama a Muslim?" Well is he? If he was would you ask the question?
If you dont agree with what someone says, state your view. Give your case.
That's just me. Do what you need to do.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)present. With what risk?
onenote
(42,700 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)a coincidence that his grandpappy was in the CIA and his dad was a magistrate judge.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)According to hack89's post in another thread. Looking at the excerpt he posted there, one didn't even need a college degree to be one prior to 2008.
"§ 19.2-33. Office of magistrate.
The office of magistrate shall be vested with all the authority, duties and obligations previously vested in the office of justice of the peace prior to January 1, 1974."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-33
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)onenote
(42,700 posts)The term "magistrate judge" is not used in Virginia and the official description posted by the Office of the Virginia magistrate states that magistrates are not judges with trial jurisdiction but rather are "judicial officers." You will not find any official reference to the term "magistrate judge" in Virginia law.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)I cannot believe that he coasted and suddenly got that post as a magistrate in Virginia. What did he do before that time especially since he was in an area where there are many suspect departments, (Langley, Quantico-all within spitting distance). This goes deeper than even grandpappy.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)onenote
(42,700 posts)Some if not all of those cases arose in a different jurisdiction. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, just that if you've had to bail your kid out repeatedly, and you have those kinds of connections, you might consider pulling those strings to get him set up somewhere that he can stay out of trouble.
I still think this is a simple case of a racist, incompetent police department and a racist cop wannabe.
Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)Don't underestimate how easily Florida precincts can be gamed.
Travelman
(708 posts)macigally translate into the father somehow having some sort of access to some sort of damaging information?
That makes absolutely no sense at all. And besides that, the CIA is VASTLY more descrete. If the Agency were actually involved, no one would ever have heard of Trayvon Martin.
This is all highly irrelevand and ludicrously speculative bullshit. Sorry.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)Could YOU get a magistrate job with even a 6 month gap in your resume?
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)At least before 2008
"§ 19.2-33. Office of magistrate.
The office of magistrate shall be vested with all the authority, duties and obligations previously vested in the office of justice of the peace prior to January 1, 1974."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-33
leveymg
(36,418 posts)He was Judge, whether you call it a judge or a magistrate, whether it requiried a JD or BA.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Or was he simply a justice of the peace for which one didn't even need a college degree (prior to 2008) to be.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)presiding judge is a magistrate judge. Often they oversee smaller cases, or are assigned to certain hearings, etc. etc. They make determinations on the case. In my cases, the magistrate judges make determinations, then these determinations are reviewed by the judge.
hack89
(39,171 posts)can't imagine anyone lower on the legal totem pole.
Why do you think being a magistrate in Virginia translates into power and influence in Florida?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts).In 24 states across the country, judges dont need a law degree to serve on certain courts. And, despite the questionable appearance of having nonlawyer judges oversee certain cases, recent legislative efforts to require judges to hold a JD have produced mixed results.
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/is_there_a_lawyer_in_the_court/
hack89
(39,171 posts)translates into influence and power in Florida? Is he rich? Is he politically active? Why does being a justice of the peace for 6 years mean so much?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)immemorial.
hack89
(39,171 posts)What did he do for living that would give him either?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)idea of how low you wish to make him seem in importance. I'm curious.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Six years as a justice of the peace is not the route to power and money - so tell me just how he gained all this power and influence? What did he do previously? Is he wealthy? Politically active?
What evidence do you have that he is influential in Florida? That's all I am asking.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)who shoots and pretends he was defending himself? What are you going to do if and when Zimmerman is arrested and his ass thrown in the slammer? STILL defend him to your last, dying breath?
hack89
(39,171 posts)he is guilty of manslaughter at a minimum - murder charges are certainly possible.
What he did was not self defense.
He was not arrested due to the racism of the police department.
So where were we - oh yes, tell me more about this great power and influence his father wields in Florida. Do you have any real facts?
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered "judges" and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia's Judicial System Website .
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/zimmerman-dad-worked-as-magistrate
I think to keep referring to Zimmerman's father as a magistrate judge is misleading. In Virgina, a magistrate was formerly know as a justice of the peace.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)A magistrate is an officer of the state; in modern usage the term usually refers to a judge.
The term "magistrate" is often used (chiefly in judicial opinions) as a generic term for any independent judge who is capable of issuing warrants, reviewing arrests, etc.[5][6] When used in this way it does not denote a judge with a particular office. Instead, it denotes (somewhat circularly) a judge or judicial officer who is capable of hearing and deciding a particular matter. That capability is defined by statute or by common law.
In Virginia, for example, the Constitution of 1971 created the office of magistrate to replace the use in cities and counties of the justice of the peace, which is common in many states for this function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrate
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)and not a magistrate judge. In Virginia, Zimmerman's father held the job of "magistrate" and not "magistrate judge". Referring to him as a "magistrate judge" isn't accurate.
"Magistrates will try to assist you by providing general information, but they are generally not attorneys and cannot give legal advice."
http://www.bvso.net/Documents/The%20Office%20of%20The%20Virginia%20Magistrate.pdf
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Every time I hear it he's a lower, lower, and lower level magistrate. How low can they make him go? Should be interesting.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)In an earlier post, you said:
"Magistrate judges do the same job as any judge."
While I take your word that magistrate judges do the same job as any judge, Zimmerman's father wasn't one. In Virginia there are "Chief magistrates" and "magistrates" but no "magistrate judges". Zimmerman's dad was a magistrate; a judicial official.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)have him seem positively helpless.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)would be able to build a network of connections and have considerable influence in other states.
Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered "judges" and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia's Judicial System Website .
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/zimmerman-dad-worked-as-magistrate
Magistrates in Virginia have the power to:
"to issue arrest warrants
to issue search warrants
to admit to bail or commit to jail
to issue warrants or subpoenas
to issue civil warrants
to administer oaths and take acknowledgements
to act as conservator of the peace
to accept prepayment for traffic and certain minor misdemeanor offenses
to issue temporary detention orders"
http://www.bvso.net/Documents/The%20Office%20of%20The%20Virginia%20Magistrate.pdf
hack89
(39,171 posts)that show his father had real power, money and influence. What did he do for a living, for example?
onenote
(42,700 posts)Indeed, the state is specific in describing them as not being judges with trial jurisdiction. Indeed, during the time Zimmerman's dad was a magistrate (2002-2006, I believe), magistrates couldn't even accept payment for traffic tickets. That power was only given to them in 2008 as part of an "upgrade" in the position of magistrate.
http://valawyersweekly.com/2008/04/07/magistrate-system-is-upgraded-pay-is-not/
leveymg
(36,418 posts)They just don't do trial cases
onenote
(42,700 posts)Among other things, they're not subject to the same code of ethical responsibility as judges. They are paid a fraction of what judges are paid in Virginia.
I've lived in Virginia most of my life. While my legal practice is in DC, I have a good friend that I grew up with who served for several year's as an assistant state's attorney. According to him, no one thinks of magistrates as "judges" -- they don't even refer to them as "your honor" (just sir or ma'am).
Do you have first hand experience to the contrary?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)to do with the father? Or, that the father's apparent connections with the criminal justice system -- whatever they might have been -- didn't have anything to do with the extreme leniency shown George in 2005 and on the night of the shooting?
If not that, what's the relevance of the issue you raise?
onenote
(42,700 posts)It seems to me that nothing good comes out of people being misinformed as to what his father's job was. I'm not the one that raised the fact he was a magistrate. I'm just trying to help clarify what that position is, and isn't.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)six year stint as a magistrate in the state of Virginia somehow gave him the pull and influence in the state of Florida to insure that extreme leniency was shown to his son in that state. Some here keep referring to Zimmerman's father as a "magistrate judge" even though there is no such thing in Virginia.
For giggles, I looked up the duties of a magistrate in my home state of Michigan and they are much more extensive then they are in Virginia and the qualifications to be one here are much higher.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Read one article giving his age as 64 and another saying he retired from the military. Doing some calculations, Robert may have enlisted or was drafted around 1966 or later. If he stayed in for the standard 20 years, he would have retired somewhere around 1986. Now we have something like a 14 year gap.
"Meanwhile, a report in The Washington Post revealed new details about Zimmermans upbringing in Manassas, Va. Neighbors told the Post that Zimmermans family was very Catholic...very religious, and his father, Robert Zimmerman, a retired military man who could be strict."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-job-20120323_1_robert-zimmerman-source-new-details
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Just because we don't know in detail what Zimmerman's father's employment history is, that doesn't mean that a gap exists.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)From murder charges? Dont they have more important things to do? Whats next... fixing traffic tickets?
slampoet
(5,032 posts)The CIA handbook talks about cultivating this kind of contact network as a necessary asset for every operative even Non-field agents.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)So I fail to see what the CIA connection is. More than likely they all go to the same church or belong to the same KKK club or something.
mainer
(12,022 posts)and were thus vulnerable to being manipulated.
It's interesting to note that Wolfinger (like Robert J Zimmerman) is also a Vietnam vet, and some veterans boards note that he comes from the same area in eastern PA that Zimmerman came from.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)I really don't know how much plainer I can put it.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Not that they dont, but theyre not going to risk knowledge of such activity getting out in order to help some loser beat a murder rap. They have bigger fish to fry. More than likely SA and Zimmdad go to the same church or some other local interest in common. Not a CIA connection.
mainer
(12,022 posts)and was certainly working for the CIA.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)She was investigating international arms shipments. Domestic operations fall under the FBI.
mainer
(12,022 posts)He was just living in Manassas, VA. There's no information whatsoever on his activities there.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)To dig up dirt on the SA, and then used that info as leverage to get his loser kid free of charges. Seems quite far fetched to me.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)what exactly was your point?
whistler162
(11,155 posts)but you know the CIA<hint hint wink wink>.
They are out in force 4 days early!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)the family makes it pretty certain it's the grandpa.
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/george-zimmerman?before=1333458622
United States. Dept. of State, United States. Dept. of State - 1999 - Snippet view
Robert Walter Zimmermann, 80, died on March 5 in Washington, DC, of a heart attack. During his Foreign Service career as a ... The grave site, on a wooded hillside, offers a clear view of the State Department's diplomatic entrance...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It is much simpler than that.
Amerigo Vespucci
(30,885 posts)That's my guess.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)When people are in serious trouble, they'll call for help from any source, and what better sources than a grandpappy that was in the CIA and had pals, and a pappy that was a magistrate judge.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)To the local power structure...they are well plugged in.
CIA twenty years after grand dad passed hardly.
Amerigo Vespucci
(30,885 posts)1). He could have called someone in the "local power structure" directly
2). He could have called a peer with influence on the "local power structure"
At this point there's no way of knowing the full chain of events, but I am 100% convinced that the first two steps were that Zimmerman called Daddy, and Daddy made a call.
And I agree...there was no reason to reach out to the CIA or anyone associated with it. Pappy Zim didn;t have to lean on Grandpappy Zim's "legacy."
He just had to make one phone call, identify himself to the person on the other end, and the dominoes fell. The "local power structure" fell into lock-step and reported for duty.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)ALSO we still have a 25 year career gap for the Robert Zimmerman who is still alive.
mainer
(12,022 posts)And they all know each other. So my antennae are up on this particular topic.
I suspect the same may be true in that Florida town as well.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Does that mean that I can go around capping people?
(Please let me know. There's some people I know deserve a bullet.)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Amerigo Vespucci
(30,885 posts)Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)It is a small list though...interested?LOL
Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)Hmmm?
EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)yesterday. The format was one of an interview with R.W. Zimmermann giving
a very detailed account of his career. This was a man that served under several
presidents beginning with I believe Nixon. He was present in several countries
during the time of revolution and great upheaval. His wife Gladys, was the the
daughter of the second person in charge of the Cuban Embassy.
People with long careers such as his, make connections that last a lifetime.
Those connections can very well be available to their children and grandchildren.
For anyone to have read this interview and believe that this family is not "special"
in how they are treated in the criminal justice system are in denial of how this
country and this system works for the privileged few.
JustAnotherGen
(31,819 posts)But Zimmerman is getting away with this not because of any connections - but because Martin was black.
It's that simple. Had it been a 'connected' black guy shooting a white 17 year old - it wouldn't matter HOW far and long connected he was . . . . he would have already been tried, convicted and electrocuted because that's what happens when black people kill white people in Florida.
Truthfully - lets not gild the lily and make this some right wing wingnut conspiracy.
The only conspiracy here is the long standing one that's been going on since 1865.
Black Americans just got reminded to keep our sons in check/in place - that's all. It's that simple. Same old conspiracy different day.
Justice4allofus
(72 posts)I'm not going to contradict your claim that he was CIA, but the NY Times says Army Intelligence. Still, NYT did not say he was not CIA, whichi is possible. The thing is the man was a spy.
http://nyti.ms/HhHuGY
slampoet
(5,032 posts)Before 1947 it was called the The Office of Strategic Services (OSS)
Prior to the formation of the OSS during WWII, American intelligence had been conducted on an ad-hoc basis by the various departments of the executive branch, including the State, Treasury, Navy, and War Departments.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)But really he was ex CIA. He said his job at CIA was to go to cocktail parties and chat up wives of foreign diplomats. I'm guessing thats about 99% of what the CIA does... cloak and dagger secret agent probably very minimal.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,819 posts)Was in the first 'class' of Green Berets. He was considered "Intelligence".
It doesn't give me the right to shoot someone in cold blood.
mainer
(12,022 posts)If George was charged and went to trial, it would drag the family -- and their past -- into the spotlight. They thought they could make it go away and the press wouldn't do any digging. Instead, by manipulating things and trying to make it go away, it all blew up in their faces. It became a bigger story than it ever would have.
The coverup BECAME the story.
If I had a job that required secrecy, I would want to avoid my kid going on trial, too. I would want to avoid the press's attention.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)1. SYG laws like the one in Florida enable sociopathic murderers to get away with murdering people by making a claim of self defense.
2. Racist police departments like Sanford's aid and abet sociopathic murderers, see (1).
onenote
(42,700 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)on these boards you'd think it was something from Rim Job's board instead.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)We rarely agree, but in this case we do.
There's nothing more usual than the killing of a black youth by a white man going unprosecuted in Florida or several other southern states. No connections are required, although I suppose the father could be in the same fraternal organization with the chief of police. Now, that wouldn't surprise me. Which fraternal organization? Doesn't matter that much, really. Could even one that wears costumes with pointy hats.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Strings were pulled via local connections, not CIA.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)low-wage job for the risk involved. and he got canned.
his dad came to florida at retirement. why would he have a lot of local connections in florida?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Pprobably something along those lines.
DFW
(54,370 posts)Does this post always go to some right wing tool?
I was living there in the late sixties, knew the Consul General then. He was a Nixon-cheering, Franco-loving
pro-fascist, made no bones about it. In the Nixon era, it was our government's policy to lick Franco's fascist
ass as long as he let us have free rein with our military installations in Spain. Agnew even visited Franco on
July 18th. JULY 18TH for Pete's sake!! That would have been the equivalent of FDR sending his VP to visit
Hitler in the anniversary of the Kristallnacht.
Some history to explain my comment:
July 18th was the official date of the start of the fascist uprising that started the Spanish Civil War. In some
accounts, it was the 17th, but the fascists celebrated the 18th. The Caudillo ("Führer" was supposed to be
General Sanjurjo, who was in exile in Portugal, but Sanjurjo insisted that his plane be overloaded with
fancy dress uniforms. His pilot warned that the plane was overweight for safe flight. Sanjurjo, an egotistical
bastard, overruled his pilot. The plane took off, crashed, and Sanjurjo did not survive the crash. At least the
pilot did survive. Franco became Caudillo due to his superior's fatal vanity.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Spaniard), and found out a lot of what went on during Franco.
Fascist assholes were provided nice lifestyles and free homes, and their descendants live rather nicely nowadays, having inherited all that.
DFW
(54,370 posts)I was there in the later part of Franco's reign, when things were already starting to loosen up a little.
In the early years, Spain was not a pleasant place to be if you were not "in with the in crowd."
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)remains alive and well inside the PP (Partido Popular) political party, which was established by avid Franquista Manuel Fraga back in the 70s, of which Mariano Rajoy is a member. He's barely in Spain long as prime minister, and already he's highly unpopular, wanting to cut every imaginable social program. This, in a country which LOVES its social programs. I can't stand the man.
Of course, Spain in in dire straits like the U.S. Same thing that corporations, the wealthy, and politicians did here, they did likewise in Spain. Still, life does not get as precarious in Spain as it does here. Cities and towns there are made for walking, not riding, so everything is close by and there's a very low reliance on petrol and more on feet, people socialize almost daily, and a tremendous amount of that is done at home, and families look after one another. It's different and much easier to bear than here. However, Spaniards will not tolerate their programs being cut much. They will strike and protest at the drop of a hat and bring the entire country to a halt.
We'll see what happens. My brother is currently living in Spain and keeping me posted on everything. People are really p-o'd.
Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #79)
Post removed
hack89
(39,171 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 02:25 PM - Edit history (1)
Here's his end of career interview with the Foreign Affairs Oral History project in the National Archives. http://international.loc.gov/service/mss/mssmisc/mfdip/2005%20txt%20files/2004zim01.txt
He was what might be described as a typical State Dept. spook during the Cold War, except that Zimmerman was posted in Spain and ended up in Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil during the "Dirty War." Early in the interview, he talks matter of factly about the Fascists he dealt with routinely in Spain and Portugal. His observations about Carter's attention to Human Rights are also notable for their ambivalence.
If George Zimmerman had Right-wing authoritarian attitudes (and the interview below is indeed with George's grandfather), he may have gotten them through his father who was reportedly Military Intelligence in Vietnam from his Grandfather, who was either CIA under diplomatic cover posted in some of the worst human rights violations in the world or was a career State Dept. guy in those posts who went over to CIA as a contractor at the end of his State Dept. posting. More specifically, he moved over to the "HUMINT Office of the old Intelligence Committee Staff" posted at Langley. At the very end of the interview he sums up his later career (1985-91) as being with the ARA (DOS Bureau of Inter-American Affairs). He appears to have been part of an "Inspection Corps," which may have been attached to the State Department, or that may have been his cover. But, there is no question about that he was a spook posted in some of the nastiest Spanish-speaking posts during the Cold War:
ZIMMERMANN: That is right. I really didn't have an assignment when I came back. I had interviews with the Inspection Corps, with Ken Young and also with Bill Bowdler in ARA. Bill said, "We want you to take over Brazilian affairs. You have Portuguese and we think it will be great." It looked pretty good to me, I didn't see anything else on the horizon at that point. I had not ever been in Brazil before, and I had to do my homework fast. There was an excellent Ambassador at the other end, John Crimmins. It was a great assignment and I really enjoyed it. There were many problems and it was a very busy time.
It became even busier when the office became responsible for all East Coast Affairs including Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay. We were having problems over nuclear facilities in Brazil and the military agreements were going a little sour because of friction on nuclear matters. They also wanted a lot more military aid than we were prepared to give them at that point. Also, as I say the dirty war was going on in Argentina and Uruguay.
Q: The dirty war being?
ZIMMERMANN: The dirty war was referred to the atrocities committed by both the military government and the opposition. There were hidden massacres and burials at night that nobody knew about. People were abducted and never heard from again. People were dropped out of planes over the river. It was a very dirty war.
At one point Robert Hill was Ambassador there. I stayed with him usually when I went to Buenos Aires. I remember riding with him with four lead cars and two behind. It was that bad in terms of threats against Americans who were accused of being too sympathetic with the "opposition". It was a very dirty problem. Obviously the human rights organizations here were very much up in the air, and, of course, we were too. The Carter administration properly placed great emphasis on human rights. There was great pressure from the White House on these things.
Q: Basically you had military governments in all three countries.
ZIMMERMANN: That is true, and Stroessner had been in Paraguay since 1955.
Q: And Uruguay had a military government?
ZIMMERMANN: Yes.
Q: I think it is very interesting to look at the impact of the human rights policy during Carter on the Foreign Service and its almost visceral reaction about how this sort of upsets all sorts of other things. I think we have learned to live with it. But this was the beginning. Did you and your colleagues have trouble adjusting to this major emphasis on something... ?
ZIMMERMANN: I don't think any of us held any objection to this being a real goal in our foreign policy. I think what gave many of us problems was that it became almost the only goal in some ways. It certainly became a predominant goal and other means of achieving ends were sort of left in limbo.
Q: Did you find yourself going head-to-head with Pat Derian, head of the Human Rights office, or others in her office?
ZIMMERMANN: No, you didn't go head-to-head with Pat Derian. Our Assistant Secretary was very careful on this score. We followed his lead. Fred Rondon, who was my Argentine Desk officer and later my deputy, had the most contact with Pat Derian. In fact he accompanied her on a trip down to Argentina. He was a good man for it and was bilingual in Spanish and could help out a great deal with Pat. He also had good rapport with her, I think, given the circumstances. We took our lead from the Assistant Secretary really on how to play this.
Q: How did this translate with relations? Was it one of these things where we would go up and say you have to be more human rightish and then go on our way and nothing would happen but we had made our bid?
ZIMMERMANN: My opinion is that our representations seldom led anywhere in Uruguay or Argentina, certainly not in Argentina. In Argentina, one feels half out of the real world. There is a feeling of being isolated from world events. Certainly, they, in their own activities felt that; they didn't give a damn about opinion elsewhere.
Q: They can live off their own resources.
ZIMMERMANN: Exactly. We tried hard. I mean the violations were so egregious that it wasn't hard to be in support of human rights, believe me. The violations were incredible, including by the Tupamaros in Uruguay. We may have had a slightly restraining role in Uruguay in some cases, but not a great success.
Q: How about with Brazil and human rights?
ZIMMERMANN: Human rights was a factor in Brazil...the death squads and so forth. But violations had tapered off as an issue in some way versus what it had been earlier, and certainly Brazil in this respect was way over-shadowed by Uruguay and Argentina. But there were still problems. We got wind of violations less than we did in Argentina. Information came from interviews with people who had been released from prison some time later. Also, we had other fish to fry in Brazil, including the nuclear issue, because they were by far the most advanced in nuclear research, etc., and were dickering with the Germans.
Q: What was the issue on the nuclear side that got us so involved?
ZIMMERMANN: Well, the issue was basically what their ultimate intentions were. We discouraged the production of enriched uranium, which we tried to keep away from most countries. Were their goals just nuclear power and research or were they intent on developing military uses?
We had a similar problem with the Argentines. We were very concerned. They would not let us see their reactors except from a distance. But the issue didn't come up as sharply as it did in Brazil because Brazil was dickering with German firms for plutonium enrichment equipment and processes. In the end, the German processes did not prove very successful as I remember. I think they were systems that had not really been proved in themselves and as far as I know, did not prove to be very useful to the Brazilians either. It cost a lot of money and time and plus bad relations for a while.
Q: Brazil, unlike most of the other Latin American countries, hasn't really fought any wars with anybody for a long time. Why would it want a bomb?
ZIMMERMANN: Well, Brazil sent troops to fight with us in World War II and were the only Latin Americans that did.
Q: Yes, and they fought the Italian campaign. But you don't have a feeling that the Brazilians are after slices of territory. What would they use a bomb for?
ZIMMERMANN: Argentina. This was the big rival on the continent and they were aware that the Argentines were also pursuing nuclear development.
Q: Was it the feeling that the Argentines are messing around with nuclear things so we better have one ourselves?
ZIMMERMANN: That was the feeling on both sides, absolutely.
Q: You look at the map and you would say that you would have a real hard time making much of...they abut on each other in a relatively small area of little consequence.
ZIMMERMANN: Uruguay was established as a buffer state. I think in Brazil's case it was a little more than that, however. In Brazil it was a question of being a big power. They always wanted to be considered a big power, particularly by the US, and pointed at us and said we didn't treat them as a big power. The nuclear aspect was the mark of a big power and therefore they wanted to develop this. I think that was a very major part of the consideration.
Q: How did you evaluate our Embassies? Were we well represented in those countries?
ZIMMERMANN: Well, I think under John Crimmins the Embassy was very strong in Brazil. He was a top professional to my mind. In Uruguay, Larry Pezzulo, who was Ambassador when I left ARA, was excellent and worked very hard. His predecessor was not under the same pressures, so I think a comparison might be unfair.
In Paraguay Landau did a very good job for a number of years. I visited there twice. I flew back with the body of the Ambassador who died here and saw Stroessner a couple of times. It was a very low key operation compared with events in neighboring countries.
I think Hill did a good job in Argentina although I know he was controversial. I was never that closely involved with Raul Castro ...from Arizona I believe. I took him through his paces here before he went down, but I did not have that much of a feeling later.
Q: Carter did speak some Spanish. Was there more interest in ARA during his administration?
ZIMMERMANN: I don't know. Obviously Kennedy had an interest with his Alliance for Progress program. I think Johnson was so involved in the Vietnam business that he probably didn't have a whole lot of time for it, at least as far as I remember...I was on the Far East side at that point. I think Carter had a genuine interest in Latin America. He had Bob Pastor as his NSC guy for Latin America affairs.
Q: Did Rosalynn Carter make a trip to Latin America?
ZIMMERMANN: Yes, she went to Brazil for an inauguration that the President could not attend. I don't think the Brazilians appreciated her visit properly. I think that was unfair, but again it was the old Latin machismo. She got very involved in human rights down there too, which didn't endear her to the government.
Q: You retired when?
ZIMMERMANN: In February 1979.
Q: What have you been doing since?
ZIMMERMANN: That fall they were setting up the new FOI (Freedom of Information) office and I started working with the first team. After about a year and a half or so, Larry Pickering wanted me to join the historic document review center...it was sort of a Bangkok mafia. So I moved down there and am still working down there insofar as the salary cap permits me.
But aside from that, most of my work during the past five years has been with the Intelligence Community Staff on the HUMINT committee. That was broken up as of July under Gates. My contract is being kept alive until they decide how this settles down, whether they even want any contractors back. The HUMINT office is being moved out to Langley and the other divisions of the old Intelligence Community Staff are being parceled out elsewhere. I did mostly projects that had to do with Latin American and the Iberian Peninsula.
Q: Okay. I want to thank you very much.
librechik
(30,674 posts)onenote
(42,700 posts)and while it may be that the father went into the same line of work, has that actually been "reported" anywhere?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)agents. (I think they're ex - or maybe one is never an ex-CIA??) They live in Miami.
These people are very nicely $et up financially, don't hold down a job that I know of, and have good friends among authority, from a mayor to ordinary police officers.
onenote
(42,700 posts)I know a lot of folks here in the DC area that worked in various aspects of the intelligence community. For the most part, they have landed very well paying "consultant" type jobs with defense contractors, private security firms, etc etc. Ending up as a $35K per year low level magistrate? That's not the typical career path of someone who is well connected.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)onenote
(42,700 posts)Pay scale is from $35K to $50K depending on education and experience. A magistrate getting hired today with a law degree (not required) can get $50K. Admittedly, I'm assuming that Zimmerman's daddy doesn't have a law degree and, by the time he retired as a magistrate, he might have been making more than $35K, but not much more.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)That doesn't make him a bad person, of course. But, it's a visual clue of the image he projects to the world.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Plus, a lot of stuff that's come from the family --including (I recall) the father's statement that George's head was being pounded into the concrete and he had a broken nose and stitches -- has proven to be total BS.
Frankly, if I were the Dad and I had gotten my son off 4 violence charges, including felony assault on a police officer, in 2005 -- and my son went on to commit a crime like this, I wouldn't show my face, either.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)it's still not clear what the father did except that he was in Vietnam. The father, Robert J. Zimmerman, had a military pension, and the fact that the Magistrate's job didn't pay that much doesn't mean that he wasn't part of a larger network.
This is all circumstantial, anyway. But, it does go to George's attitudes toward things like politics and violence.
EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)Two homes overseas, several properties here, travel extensively and all this from
a career teaching first grade often in overseas schools.
Amazing what one can do with a teachers salary.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)
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mainer
(12,022 posts)It appeared in the NYT yesterday.
The speculation is whether George's dad is also intelligence (a missing 25-year occupational gap not yet explained), and may have asked his circle of friends to quash any charges against his son.
Response to mainer (Reply #61)
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EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)stated yesterday that Trayvon's case would never go to trial if family connections
existed and were used to override the lead investigators recommendation that
George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter.
I feel just the opposite. If responsible journalists are able to expose that a black
teenagers murder was committed by a racist that already knew he had special privilege
from previous arrests, there would be an argument for pre-meditated murder.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Your assumption that legal proof must be had before any assumptions can be made, would bring life on this planet to a complete halt.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I just don't like idel speculation.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)people do on this planet.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)mainer
(12,022 posts)Which is what is being developed and investigated.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)like the grandfather immediately got dirt on the local.cops and was able to blackmail them into not pressing charges
As opposed to
some lazy racist outback law enforcement goobers just blew it off and didn't do their jobs.
occum's thingy
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)anyone has. I think racism is the issue in this. That, and perhaps other issues we don't quite know. Zimmerman is being treated like some VIP, and I, for one, want to know the reason.
Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #143)
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Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)kmarx1917
(4 posts)you need help
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)LOL! I think it's funny.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...that the post will be hidden.
But I wonder if a person who doesn't know that their post count is visible to anyone could be an intruder, or if they're just inexperienced.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And that username, kmarx1917....
No one would ever suspect with a name like that....
PS, post hidden, but still and active member....
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)He disrupted poorly.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #159)
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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #155)
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kmarx1917
(4 posts)Who killed JFK?
Where was the fake moon landing filmed at? I bet you access to this information!
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Or should I take a guess?
Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)
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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)
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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #150)
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Response to Post removed (Reply #170)
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Kaleva
(36,298 posts)A post by HiPointDem:
"ZIMMERMANN, ROBERT WALTER, fgn. service officer; b. Chgo., Feb. 5, 1919; s. Clémence Robert and Meu (Becker)
and he died in 1999.
United States. Dept. of State, United States. Dept. of State - 1999 - Snippet view
Robert Walter Zimmermann, 80, died on March 5 in Washington, DC, of a heart attack. During his Foreign Service career as a ... The grave site, on a wooded hillside, offers a clear view of the State Department's diplomatic entrance..."
https://cgi.marquiswhoswho.com/OnDemand/Default.aspx?last_name=Zimmermann&first_name=Robert"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=507926
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)That explains why his grandfather was CIA.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I also heard them say Z's GREAT-great-grandfather was a 33rd level Mason.
This guy's so connected I see him in the Oval Office shortly after his 35th birthday.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)confirmed by cross-referencing his obit with the info on the robert z. at state.
and he wasn't just a grunt, either.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I'm not sure how a dead man's past converts to political pressure in a current murder case.
I thought when you died your favor checkbook died with you.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Because if this was the case I'm sure we'd be hearing about abuses of this "loophole" for decades rather than just brought to light now.