By Nader they mean "the political left".

[ForgoTheConsequence]

And they couldn't be any more transparent about it. Unions busted, women's health and equality set back who knows how many years and who do they blame first? The left. Why are the third-way, conservadems so afraid of placing the blame where it belongs? What do they gain by shielding the Supreme Court, Bush Co, and the Republican Party?

[newthinking]

1. It is so odd to see people blasting essentially the "democratic process" when they don't like the

results.

[joshcryer]

15. There was nothing democratic about the 2000 decision.

[newthinking]

25. I meant the fact that an independant candidate ran for office

I agree that 2000 was a sham and was our first warning of what was to come.

[joshcryer]

28. That's fair enough.

But that independent candidate was post-fairness doctrine which allowed Nader to lie through his teeth about Al Gore and the MSM trashed Gore over trivialities (see The Daily Howler which chronicled the Al Gore media bullshit narrative).

Mind you, we haven't had the fairness doctrine since 1987, so a lot of politicians got away with that crap (though I honestly can't think of an instance where Clinton did; he won because of Perot). In my opinion Nader really used it to his full advantage back then. The stuff suggesting Gore wasn't significantly different than Bush was just absurd and unsupportable.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

2. it was conservadems who voted to confirm all 5 of those rightwing justices

Scalia, Kennedy and Thomas were confirmed by a Democratic majority Senate.

The GOP was in control for Roberts and Alito, but they easily could have been blocked, had spineless Dems not decided to let them through.

But, yeah, let's blame Nader.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

4. Scalia was 98-0.

Meanwhile 31 Republicans voted against Sotomayor. It's unreal, but hey, it's the left's fault.....


It was the political left's fault that Hillary voted for the Iraq war too.

[Ed Suspicious]

39. "Scalia was 98-0." That is a shocking state of affairs. The SC is what the conservadems rail on as

the reason it is so damned important to not go left. We need the mushy middle to secure the presidency in order to keep us free from hard right justices, is the crux of their argument. They find it impossible to get the middle by extolling the virtuous principles of the left. We must compromise them away because the right wing meanies will call us tax and spend liberals, is the fear I think. Not one vote of opposition to Scalia? The pukes have one hell of a whip to pull that shit off. Why are we so content to take that kind of beating?

[BootinUp]

42. That was a long time ago 1986.

Since that time SC nominees are all getting more scrutiny. But no doubt many of those Senators have since second guessed that one. Biden has said he voted wrong there.

[JI7]

45. yes, the SC issue has become more important in recent years

and that argument is stupid anyways. it's like saying the republicans are liberals because they ddin't stop sotomayor or kagan.

it takes away from the importance of whot he President is in appointing justices.

[Armstead]

66. Nader as a long time ago too

[Armstead]

65. BINGO -- Nail on Head

[Cha]

3. No, I mean fucking nader.. no thanks for your poor mind reading abilities.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

5. Who's fucking Nader?

I think you meant to post in the celebrity gossip forum.

[Hekate]

6. Bull. Nader earned it. When he is mentioned, "they" mean him.

I know I do.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

7. Sure you do.

Anything to absolve Bush Co.

[Hekate]

9. And you know this how?

My gods what a stupid statement.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

14. Because that's what you're doing.....

Instead of directing your outrage at Bush, the Supreme Court, Katherine Harris, the Florida Republican party, etc. You're stomping your feet and crying about the boogeyman from 15 years ago.

[Cha]

30. Poor nader.. there's enough blame to go around but we can't bring up nader because..you know

tweedlenader and tweedledum nader had no part in this. Nader

[Hekate]

35. Good grief. Someone is really flailing tonight, isn't he?

Must be that old Alice in Wonderland rhyme: Tweedledum and Tweedledee prepared to have a battle...

But why here, Cha?

[SidDithers]

62. There sure are a lot of "It wasn't Nader's fault" threads popping up...

The Greenies seem a bit defensive, of late.



Sid

[Cha]

75. the Greenies need better representation than ratfucker ralph nader.. I'm as Green as anyone

but ralph nader? Please.

Sid

[Jim Lane]

8. Reasonable people can disagree about Nader, but putting words in others' mouths is indefensible.

By Nader I mean Nader.

There were plenty of people on the political left who agreed with much of Nader's substantive policies but who disagreed with his decision to run in the general election instead of in the Democratic primaries. I, myself, would have been happy to vote for him in the primary. He would have gotten more total votes than he got as the Green Party candidate, he would have done much more to educate people about progressive ideas, and he even would have had a better chance of becoming President.

You imply that anyone who holds that view is a conservadem who's "shielding" various malefactors of the right. How comforting it must be to assure yourself that everyone who disagrees with you is an evil person with bad motives.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

11. No, it's defensible.

If you blame Nader for the Supreme Court and Bush Co's hijacking of the American Democratic system you're either shielding them or completely naive.

[Jim Lane]

29. You have no right to LIE about what position your opponents are enunciating.

Your OP said that those of us who lay part of the blame on Nader "mean 'the political left.'" No, we do not. When we say Nader we mean Nader. We mean that, although the Supreme Court acted wrongfully, that wrongful action does not excuse all the other choices by other actors that played a role in putting Bush in the White House.

Naderites of course understand this when it comes to any topic other than Saint Ralph. When we criticize Katherine Harris's voter purge, no one says "If you blame Harris for the Supreme Court you're either shielding them or completely naive."

The Naderites themselves love to criticize Gore for picking Lieberman. They admit that Gore had a right to pick Lieberman, but they argue that he made a bad choice, and that if he had chosen better, Bush would not have become President. Somehow, though, it never works the other way. My belief is that Nader had a right to run in the general election, but that he made a bad choice, and that if he had chosen better, Bush would not have become President.

I can criticize Nader's decision to run and someone else can criticize Gore's decision to pick Lieberman, and neither of us is thereby either shielding other actors or naive.

[bettyellen]

74. yep- deliberately sowing division here, and whoever falls for it is a moron.

I can hate the supreme court, Harris and Nader.

[Maedhros]

76. Your use of the terms "Naderites" and "Saint Ralph" damages your credibility as an objective,

informed commentator.

Name calling belongs on a middle school playground, not in a discussion forum.

[Jim Lane]

87. What is the objective, informed, credibility-preserving term for what I want to say?

I want to refer to &quot a) people who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, and/or (b) people who defend his decision to run in the general election, including his decision to campaign heavily in swing states, and/or (c) people who echo his spurious assertion that the differences between the major parties are insignificant."

I didn't consider the term "Naderites" to be name-calling. I just needed a shorthand term. DUers seem to have no problem with the term "Paulite" for followers (real or imagined) of Ron Paul or Rand Paul. It's not like "Obamabots", which is clearly derogatory. If you have an alternative suggestion for a short term that conveys the concept spelled out in the preceding paragraph, I'll be glad to consider it.

Of course, my point in saying "Saint Ralph" was to say, in shorthand, that some people, including some DUers, are excessively reverential toward Nader. It was definitely intended as criticism. Frankly, though, I don't see that using the phrase "Saint Ralph" undermines my credibility but saying "some people, including some DUers, are excessively reverential toward Nader" would be OK. As the saying goes, politics ain't beanbag. DUers call the GOP "Repugnicans" and "Rethuglicans" and "Repukes" without being banished to middle school playgrounds. I suspect that your real problem is with the ideas, not with the terms used to express them.

[Maedhros]

89. It's exactly the same as "Obamabots" - the implication is for blind worship of a political figure.

It just fits your personal preference, so you view it as benign.

[Jim Lane]

91. Noting the absence of an answer to my question...

and noting also that you equate a term ("Obamabots&quot that clearly implies a lack of independent thought with a different term ("Naderites&quot that follows a general usage and has no such disparaging suffix...

I conclude that your objection lacks merit. If my continued use of the term "Naderite" means that you will consider all my substantive points to lack credibility, without the bother of considering them on the merits, so be it.

[Maedhros]

92. The answer to your queston would be "Nader voters" and "Ralph Nader", respectively.

Conclude what you want.

[Jim Lane]

93. I appreciate the attempt, but that answer doesn't do the job for me.

I'm not always limiting my comments to Nader voters. I think there are some people on DU who've stated that they didn't vote for Nader but now wish they had. (Of course, most people outside DU went the other way, learning from the result in 2000 that their decision to vote for Nader had been a mistake.)

I'm guessing there are also some people now on DU who didn't vote in that election at all (too young, not a citizen, apolitical, whatever) but who now post in a largely pro-Nader way.

[JI7]

10. i don't consider Nader the left, i would think the left would enthusiastically supported Paul

Wellstone .

[JI7]

12. i don't consider anyone who dismisses abortion rights the left

for Nader to say even if Roe was overturned it would be a states issue as if that was ok. and those suffering the most will be those who already have it the toughest in the red states.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

17. Tell that to the Democrats who voted to confirm Scalia.

Doesn't get more anti abortion than Scalia.

[JI7]

18. no, nader said on the specific issue that it wouldn't matter

by your logic Lindsey Graham is pro choice because he voted to confirm sotomayor.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

21. Right wing conservatives have made that argument.

...

The Democrats had a chance to block the Supreme Court justices who made this happen and they didn't.

[JI7]

33. the Pres appoints justices , only stupid ignorant asses would think a republican

will intentionally appoint a liberal .

[JI7]

20. Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy voted to confirm Scalia, Lindsey Graham voted to confirm Sotomayor

so, no i don't believe kennedy and leahy are right wingers and graham a liberal.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

27. I don't either.

But they bare some responsibility for who they confirm..... You can't blame Nader supporters for voting for Nader and then absolve Democratic politicians after they voted to confirm a neo-fascist like Scalia. If we're holding people accountable for their votes, lets be consistent.

[JI7]

31. i'm not blaming nader supporters for voting nader, i'm attacking those who claim there is no

difference and tell other lies.

[betterdemsonly]

36. I don't consider anyone who dismisses

Iabor and social securety to be the left!! If you sacrifice those voter and their issues, yoú´re going to lose a lot. That's the breaks!

[JI7]

38. i don't consider them to be the left either just as Nader isn't the left

[betterdemsonly]

40. Nader supports abortion rights

Many of dems you ask people to dump Nader over did not support labor rights or social security. As it happens I prioritize both. When dems are elected they become war hawks and support staying in Iraq forever. When they are elected the suddenly start supporting keystone. When they are elected the suddenly see no need to support card check. That demoralizes working class people.

Women have chosen to ally themselves with socially liberal, economic barbarian, wall street boys to protect their reproductive rights instead of the working class and it is going to cost them.

[JI7]

41. i'm not asking anyone to dump nader, i'm calling out the liars who claim there is no difference

between dems and republicans and claim Nader is the left when his lack of support for abortion rights does not make him the left.

[betterdemsonly]

43. but he does support abortion rights

just doesn't support lesser evil voting to protect them, when there are other issues to consider too.

[JI7]

44. he blew off roe v wade being overturned by saying it only means states

decide. sorry but that does not make him the left.

[SidDithers]

64. You do know that Nader aggressively union-busted when workers tried to organize at his magazine...

don't you?

He's no shining defender of labour rights.

Sid

[joshcryer]

13. By Nader I mean the apolitical demeaning left.

The one that makes shit up about good people just to score some points.

[Cali_Democrat]

16. Flashback: Nader says Obama should be impeached

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024886387

[ForgoTheConsequence]

19. Completely relevant.

I voted for Gore BTW.


But making this about Nader and not about Republicans, the Supreme Court, Bush, King Scalia, etc is doing a major disservice to progressive causes.

[Cali_Democrat]

22. Anyone who calls for the impeachment of Obama is not a 'progressive' nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

24. OK.

I would argue the same goes for anyone who voted for the Iraq War.

[ZombieHorde]

79. Thumbs up. nt

[JI7]

23. exactly it's about Nader who said overturning Roe would be ok because it would go to states

[ForgoTheConsequence]

26. If Roe were overturned it would be partially because of Scalia.

Who was confirmed by a Democratic Senate.....

[JI7]

32. and if it's not overturned it would be because of sotomayor who liberal lindsey graham

voted for.

sorry, i don't care for the lies.

[Skittles]

34. because repukes are ALWAYS guilty

but bullshit like Nader? Just fucking HELPS REPUKES. There were many reasons why bush became president but Nader - f*** - that was infuriating.

[blkmusclmachine]

46. Third Way LIKES the Republicans in control.

[Scuba]

49. +1

[skepticscott]

47. We expect everything we get from the right wing

They're just being what they are. What we don't expect is for the Rethugs to be aided and abetted by those claiming to be progressives.

[Itchinjim]

48. Fuck Nader.

[el_bryanto]

50. No I'm pretty sure they mean Nader

I voted for Nader in 2000 (and boy do I regret it). Without Nader Florida wouldn't have been close enough to steal.

Bryant

[TBF]

51. That is not lost on me -

Holder looks a lot like Palmer afaic.

What do they gain? They've become the new status quo. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We need major overhauling in this country.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. Scapegoating is an obvious tactic

of people who don't ever want to admit that electoral losses are the fault of the candidates who lost. They can't ever admit that their guy screwed up, so no matter how the loss happened, other people must be blamed. 'The spoiler', 'the uninformed voters', 'the apathetic voters', etc, etc, etc.

Here's the way it works - as a candidate, it's your job to get enough people willing to vote for you to win. If you fail to do that, it's your fault, not anyone else's. (Barring fraud, in which case it's the fault of the people who committed the fraud.)

[winter is coming]

67. +1. Was it shitty for Nader to make the "not a dime's worth of difference" claim? Hell, yes.

But spreading misinformation about your opponent is as old as politics, and flailing around like Nader killed our puppy and is the most perfidious SOB since the dawn of time obscures (and is likely meant to obscure) an unpleasant truth: we failed to convince people that there's a significant difference between voting for a Democrat and voting for a Republican. We didn't win the support of voters who voted for Nader or Bush or who didn't turn out at all.

That's on us.

"No difference between Ds and Rs" isn't like WMD claims, where ordinary Americans had to evaluate the statements being made by various sides and decide from that who was lying and who wasn't. It should be something that every voter can directly observe in his/her daily life.

If the only thing we "learn" from 2000 is that Nader is a rotten lying bastard and Gore would have been President if Nader had stepped aside and only spoken the literal truth, we will lose again in the future. Our opponents aren't going to play nice, and we need a better counter-strategy to the "no difference between parties" meme than attacking the messenger. If a significant chunk of people believe that, we need to understand how/where we've failed to demonstrate a difference that matters to them.

[Maedhros]

80. Can we put this on continuous loop?

If the only thing we "learn" from 2000 is that Nader is a rotten lying bastard and Gore would have been President if Nader had stepped aside and only spoken the literal truth, we will lose again in the future. Our opponents aren't going to play nice, and we need a better counter-strategy to the "no difference between parties" meme than attacking the messenger. If a significant chunk of people believe that, we need to understand how/where we've failed to demonstrate a difference that matters to them.

Nader called it like he saw it. It was Gore's job to disprove Nader, and like every other Democratic politician of national prominence since, he chose to triangulate and ignore the Left.

In 2014, the "Fuck Nader!" meme is intended to marginalize and discredit the "Extreme Left." See what happens, Leftists, when you expect things? Now shut up and vote for our Third Way shill! Why else even discuss it, unless it's meant to shame those who share Nader's views on the depredations of corporate America?

[winter is coming]

83. I've always thought it's interesting

that the "lesson" of 2000 is See what happens, Leftists, when you expect things? and not See what happens, Dems, when you move too far to the right? If the Party needs the votes of the left, it should act like it.

[Maedhros]

84. That's just it - they've decided that they don't need our votes.

They've developed their brand loyalty to the point that they don't feel they need to earn votes anymore - they can just harvest votes with their corporate money.

[MohRokTah]

53. You make a man of straw and then you knock it down.

Your entire premise is based upon a logical fallacy.

Ergo, you have lost the argument before it has even begun.

[djean111]

54. Bringing up Nader - to trot out a boogeyman to scare those who do not want Hillary.

At this point, I am grateful that the DNC/Third Way cannot make early voting for Hillary legal Right Now.
Primary or general election.
Just to lock down.

[KoKo]

56. Good point. Wondered about those Nader attacks after Hobby Lobby

decision. Seemed irrational...but coordinated.

[djean111]

71. Yes, the coordination is Awesome!!!!!!!

Need more blue links, tho.

[woo me with science]

72. Yup. The Third Way always overplay their hand.

It's a vile, manipulative dance, to twist this assault into an assault on the left. Ditto for the Greenwald threads and trying to use what was done to women today as an excuse to spew vitriol toward the journalist who exposed massive government abuse of power against Americans. How ironic that this new subjugation to the whims of corporations would be perverted for use as a tool in the relentless, smearing *defense* of the NSA's abuses of power against us.

They're also trying to use it, lamely and predictably, to push the "Hillary inevitability" meme.

The Third Way are a cancer. They are a corporate-bankrolled plot to co-opt the party, but they reveal themselves at every turn.

[treestar]

55. Pot calling kettle black

Always attacking the "third way" but never Republicans.

Voting to spite the "third way" ends up with Republicans in power. Useless.

[TheKentuckian]

63. Voting Turd Way ends up with Republicans in charge but with Democrats taking the blame for

their failed policies and corruption worldview. Useless.

[stevenleser]

57. No, we mean Nader. I can't even give you attempts for a clever straw man, because it wasnt clever nt

[KoKo]

58. It's the Nader Haters who are pushing the straw man...

But, it's not clever....because it is so coordinated here it's obviously "tipping your hand."

[stevenleser]

69. It's no straw man. Nader recklessly helped tip the election to Bush. He's responsible. nt

[KoKo]

73. You Mean "VOTE FOR HILLARY" or Democracy DIES!

Maybe...maybe not.

[SidDithers]

60. And, given Nader's own union-busting history, the OP is woefully misguided...

Sid

[SidDithers]

59. Fuck Nader...nt

Sid

[frazzled]

61. By Nader "they" (who are they?) mean ...

an 80-year-old man who hasn't had anything to do with the political left for decades. He's more likely to represent the interests of Grover Norquist and hedge funds than anything "left."

[JNelson6563]

68. Ok,wow. Who the fuck are you?

When I refer to Ralph Nader that is exactly who I am talking about.

Just grab a cross and drag it about. No need to fashion yoursef a new one out of bullshit.

Julie

[raouldukelives]

70. Most of them work and invest in corporate America.

They are inextricably linked with the success of Wall St, the wars waged for resources and the efforts of nation toppling.
After spending a lifetime trying as best they can to fight in and to emulate and hang out with the wealthiest, they lose a little piece of themselves. They start believing in the words of Milton, they start watching what they say so they don't upset a coworker or, heaven forbid, the boss.
Heck, in these days of surveillance one must watch what one says not only in the office but on the WWW. And they do.

What do they gain? They don't lose that shot at the new office. They don't offend anyone at the country club and they defend the choices they have made for themselves, the legacy they are leaving behind.
Inside, they still think they are a good person trying to make the world better, but the veil is thin and being called out on it, in public, makes the vision of their lives materialize. It makes them sick deep inside, which leads to anger, which leads to defense of the way of life they have choose and the masters they obey.

If they truly started placing the blame where it belongs, they would be staring in a mirror.

[geek tragedy]

77. You could not be any more incorrect or more transparent

in your attempt to smear anyone who fails to adore that narcisisstic piece of trash Nader.

nader is is not trash because he is left, he is trash because he willfully and gleefully helped Bush get elected, while acting as a Pied Piper to the idiots he convinced that Bush was the same as Gore.



your attempt to put false words in the mouths of Nader's many, many, many critics on the left and in the Democratic party is far more over the top dishonest fanboyism than anything any Obama supporter will say around here.

[Skidmore]

78. Have you ever read anything about how Saint Ralph conducts his own business?

A bigger hypocrite is hard to find. Ralph Nader has earned the disdain he gets all by himself.

[NYC Liberal]

81. No. I mean Nader. Fuck him. And no one is "shielding" anyone.

Ask any of us who say Fuck Nader and every single one of us will also shout Fuck Bush, Fuck the GOP, and Fuck SCOTUS, too. They ALL share in the blame.

Do you not know that the REPUBLICANS helped and funded his effort to get him on the ballot in Florida? Do you know WHY this was done? It was done because they knew exactly what would happen. And it worked. Bush may not have won it outright but Nader's spoiling made it close enough to steal.

And he -- with the Republicans -- tried to do it AGAIN in 2004.

Fuck Nader.

[Comrade Grumpy]

82. Jesus Christ! This is stupid. Isn't there anything from the last decade to argue about?

[jazzimov]

85. NO, they mean Nader

and the rest of the spoilers that support him. They are fakes, they are NOT the Political Left.

[hrmjustin]

86. Uh no! Whenwe say Nader we mean Nader!

His run had consequences and he can and should be criticized for it.

[rufus dog]

88. Look, I am the political left and I think Nader is a dick.

As is Kucinich,both are attention whores who are more interested in their own egos than the greater good. He fucked up, as did people who voted for him.

Do you think I wanted to vote for Gore/Lieberman? I took a look at risk reward and made a logical choice to try to keep a sociopath out of the White House. In 96 I didn't have to vote for Clinton, and I hope in 2016 I don't have to vote for Hillary, but if it comes down to her or the to be named Republican asshole, I will vote for her.

[Octafish]

90. What has Nader ever done?

Ask Bill Moyers:

...Let’s recall the context: Big Business was being forced to clean up its act. It was bad enough to corporate interests that Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal had sustained its momentum through Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson. Suddenly this young lawyer named Ralph Nader arrived on the scene, arousing consumers with articles, speeches, and above all, an expose of the automobile industry, Unsafe at Any Speed. Young activists flocked to work with him on health, environmental, and economic concerns. Congress was moved to act. Even Republicans signed on. In l970 President Richard Nixon put his signature on the National Environmental Policy Act and named a White House Council to promote environmental quality. A few months later millions of Americans turned out for Earth Day. Nixon then agreed to the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency. Congress acted swiftly to pass tough new amendments to the Clean Air Act and the EPA announced the first air pollution standards. There were new regulations directed at lead paint and pesticides. Corporations were no longer getting away with murder.

CONTINUED...

http://www.citizenvox.org/2011/11/01/bill-moyers-public-citizen-40th-anniversary-gala-occupy-wall-street-citizens-united-democracy-we-the-people/