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Roland99

(53,342 posts)
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:53 AM Jul 2014

The very scary undertone behind the Hobby Lobby verdict. (well, scary to CEOs...)

http://thebillfold.com/2014/06/hobby-lobby-ruling-isnt-just-anti-woman-its-anti-employee/

In Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court is not directly applying constitutional principles. Rather, it’s applying the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a law Congress passed in 1993 in response to an earlier Supreme Court decision, which creates broader protections for religious freedom than the court had found under the Constitution. But the key question – as it likely would be if the case were simply applying the First Amendment and not the RFRA – was whether a corporation was a “person” capable of having or exercising religious freedom. Today, the Court said yes.

Why is this a big deal? Well, you have to understand what corporations are. In short, they are fictitious legal “people” who own business assets. They exist because the government passes laws creating them, and their purpose is to insulate their owners from crushing financial risk, and create a transparent structure so that many people can contribute smaller amounts of money to a business. The idea is that if a person who wanted to operate a business ran the risk of having her house foreclosed on to satisfy the business’s debts, she would be discouraged from starting the business in the first place. Likewise, if businesses could only be as big as the small amount of money that any one person felt comfortable risking, businesses would never get very big at all. So, traditionally, a corporation is a “person” in the eyes of the law for debt, profit, and liability purposes. A corporation has official documents that define its purpose (usually, some variation on “to maximize profit for shareholders”), and when a corporate officer mixes her own money with corporate money, uses corporate money indiscriminately for purposes that don’t advance the corporation’s defined interests, or otherwise blurs the line between business money and personal money, she can be sued personally (this is called, poetically, “piercing the corporate veil“).

What Hobby Lobby does is expand the corporate veil, a process that started with the 2010 Citizens United decision. Citizens United said that corporations, as people, had free speech rights, and since political contributions were a form of speech, limits on corporate political contributions infringed on free speech. The Supreme Court, in Hobby Lobby, takes the next logical step:



Sooo...in my humble and uneducated opinion, if the SCOTUS now says that a stakeholder's personal beliefs extend to the corporation, then any damage caused by the corporation (or its products) should now be able to seek compensation from the stakeholder PERSONALLY!

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/25/4_things_you_need_to_know_about_the_hobby_lobby_scotus_case/

3. The business community isn’t rooting for Hobby Lobby to win this one.

If the Supreme Court sides with Hobby Lobby and agrees that corporations are people with religious convictions, the ruling would basically destroy what’s known as the corporate veil (which means to treat a corporation as a distinct entity from its owners or shareholders) — a precedent that would have far-ranging consequences.

Which may explain why corporate America has been unusually quiet about the case. As David H. Gans recently noted at Slate, “Not one Fortune 500 company filed a brief in the case. Apart from a few isolated briefs from companies just like Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood, the U.S. business community offered no support for the claim that secular, for-profit corporations are persons that can exercise religion.”

The Chamber of Commerce and other groups — which were falling over themselves to file amicus briefs in support of Citizens United — likely recognize that a ruling for the corporate right to the free exercise of religion would cause complete chaos, both in terms of corporate governance and market stability. By treating corporations as the same thing as their owners, a ruling in support of Hobby Lobby wouldn’t just pierce the corporate veil, it would effectively shred it and light it on fire.




Did SCOTUS, essentially, just backstab their most precious idol of all (capitalism) without realizing it?
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The very scary undertone behind the Hobby Lobby verdict. (well, scary to CEOs...) (Original Post) Roland99 Jul 2014 OP
repukes always, ALWAYS eventually overreach Skittles Jul 2014 #1
Yep - they are the scorpion Cosmocat Jul 2014 #9
Wishful thinking BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #2
You post as though this court has any morals Doctor_J Jul 2014 #3
right Cosmocat Jul 2014 #10
K&R Teamster Jeff Jul 2014 #4
I agree. Of course many of them, like Hob Lob, would wear it proudly. Ed Suspicious Jul 2014 #13
and then file as a NONPROFIT, or have their corporate charter revoked. Volaris Jul 2014 #14
Kicking. nt littlemissmartypants Jul 2014 #5
The ruling impacts only "closely held" companies FBaggins Jul 2014 #6
Guess who the #2 closely-held company is? Roland99 Jul 2014 #17
I read the opinion customerserviceguy Jul 2014 #7
But only those that have 5 (or less) shareholders who have over 50+% of the stock Hestia Jul 2014 #8
There are lots of "closely held" corporations FBaggins Jul 2014 #12
Walmart and Ford are publicly traded customerserviceguy Jul 2014 #19
Oh really? Interesting - publicly traded, thanks for telling me the difference! All of these Hestia Jul 2014 #20
There's a lot of information in the opinion customerserviceguy Jul 2014 #25
This thought had crossed my mind ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #11
Would the ruling make a difference if the company is incorporated or LLC? PADemD Jul 2014 #15
No one really knows; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #16
Really? I thought LLC's were ways for small businesses to shield their personal assets and Hestia Jul 2014 #21
Actually, they can be both ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #22
Interesting...thanks for the info! Hestia Jul 2014 #24
Would take a very determined plaintiff, a very willing lawyer, and lotsa lotsa moolah TheGunslinger Jul 2014 #18
Somewhere out there there is someone with guts and someone else with the money. Just wait. nt kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #23

Skittles

(153,160 posts)
1. repukes always, ALWAYS eventually overreach
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 05:58 AM
Jul 2014

it's their nature, and they are too stupid to really think things through.....that is why they are on the wrong side of EVERY ISSUE......yes INDEED

Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
9. Yep - they are the scorpion
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 08:06 AM
Jul 2014

in the scorpion and frog parable ...

Unfortunately, the country always ends up being the frog.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
2. Wishful thinking
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 06:02 AM
Jul 2014

They demand consistency when it suits them but can maintain gross inconsistency for the same reason. Their liabilities will still be reduced or negated while they maintain "closely held beliefs".

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
3. You post as though this court has any morals
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 06:17 AM
Jul 2014

Every decision they make is guaranteed to be far-right wrt to religion and corporations, regardless of whether it conflicts with something they already decided.

Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
10. right
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 08:07 AM
Jul 2014

THEORETICALLY this very well may be correct.

But, if this situation does arise, 50/50 at best that you don't get a right wing jackass judge or court to find a way out of it.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
6. The ruling impacts only "closely held" companies
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 06:54 AM
Jul 2014

The OP is written as though it impacts the publicly-traded companies.

Roland99

(53,342 posts)
17. Guess who the #2 closely-held company is?
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 01:32 PM
Jul 2014

Two brothers.

Big asshats

BIG


I would *LOVE* to see someone go after those Kochs on a personal liability claim!!

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
7. I read the opinion
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:24 AM
Jul 2014

and I think the SCOTUS expanded only the rights of the owners of a closely-held corporation, and not the responsibility of those shareholders. I doubt there are a lot of CEO's quaking in their boots over it.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
8. But only those that have 5 (or less) shareholders who have over 50+% of the stock
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 07:53 AM
Jul 2014

How many corporations are set up like this - Kock Bros., Walmart, & Ford comes to mind - will they start making "corporate decisions" based on this ruling?

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
12. There are lots of "closely held" corporations
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 08:35 AM
Jul 2014

Few of the large well-known names are... but 90% of corporations fit the definition

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
19. Walmart and Ford are publicly traded
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:22 AM
Jul 2014

Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Products aren't, there's the difference, and I recall that difference being part of the formal opinion.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
20. Oh really? Interesting - publicly traded, thanks for telling me the difference! All of these
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:51 AM
Jul 2014

definitions can be mind boggling. 90% are considered closely held corps? That is more than I had imagined.

Different question - can these people not just go over to the ACA portals and sign up there and have DHS "make" (I know, I know) them reimburse the employees if it is part of the benefits package? IIRC, if a corp. offers less than the standards, won't employees have the option to switch over, probably at less cost?

Questions, questions...

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
25. There's a lot of information in the opinion
Fri Jul 4, 2014, 02:09 PM
Jul 2014

it seems that most all questions I've seen on DU have an answer in there. The answers might not be fully satisfactory to everybody here, but they're at least a veneer of an attempt to say, "Don't read too much into this opinion." Of course, that will not stop the determined, and we truly don't know the limits of the decision until they're clarified by further case law, but that's what happens when laws are made in courts, and not by legislatures.

I would imagine that there should be some form of allowing people to go to an ACA portal, but you then give up the employer payment towards health insurance, which is not only pretty substantial in most peoples' cases, but is heavily tax-advantaged as well.

One thing I do see is that when the various religious employers (Catholic hospitals and the like) go to the SCOTUS to eliminate the "well, you don't pay for contraceptives, your insurer does" compromise worked out by HHS on the grounds that such an arrangement is a meaningless fiction, they might find that a conservative part of the SCOTUS that leaned on the very existence of this scheme for the HL opinion will be quite reluctant to then decide against it.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
11. This thought had crossed my mind ...
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 08:18 AM
Jul 2014

when I read that the court had limited its holding to closely held corporations ... the class of corporations with the most frequent comingling of corporate/personal funds and the most frequent instances of the "owner" using the corporation to advance non-business aims, e.g., donating to the campaign of a rabidly anti-abortion campaign, or say ... using corporate funds to press a law suit to fight for an "owner's deeply held religious views" that are unrelated to the corporate purpose.

This ruling makes it easier to pierce the corporate veil, as the legal line between the corporate person and the human person are blurred.

ETA: Could there be a more blatantly bought and paid for ruling? Riddle me this DU ... Name the largest closely held corporation in America that has exhibited an unbridled penchant for promoting the political views of its owners?

In my fantasy-mind, a team of viralent anti-communist/Russian, Black lung destroyed, and Black that lost family land ... forensic accountants, all of which holding a hatred for Koch industries, are being assembled for the sole purpose of destroying the single corporation that has brought so much pain to America. They now have a tool.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
16. No one really knows; but ...
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jul 2014

I would hazard to guess, yes ... LLCs, while mostly closely held, are special purposed corporations, i.e., smaller entities tied to larger corporations ... IOWs, smaller corporations set up to shield liability (read: assets) from a larger corporation. As such, they would have the same vulnerabilities as other closely held corporations, vis-a-vis piercing the corporate veil issues ... only much harder to unwind.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
21. Really? I thought LLC's were ways for small businesses to shield their personal assets and
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jul 2014

keep investors out of the day-to-day operations of the business. Are they really tied to a larger corporation? I didn't think you had to be. Example - a friends non-profit motorcycle club had to set up an LLC to buy property (clubhouse) for motorcycle club because the non-profit had been set up to where they couldn't buy property.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
22. Actually, they can be both ...
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:04 AM
Jul 2014

they can be used by a small business to shield their personal assets and keep investors out of the day to day operations; but (by the numbers) they are more commonly used to establish "limited purposed projects" that shield a superior entity's assets from liability. For example, most real estate organizations' projects (purchase, construction and operations) are structured as LLCs, so that if any one project goes bust, the large organization limits its liability to that project's assets.

TheGunslinger

(1,086 posts)
18. Would take a very determined plaintiff, a very willing lawyer, and lotsa lotsa moolah
Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:12 PM
Jul 2014

But, oh damn, wouldn't that make for great theater?

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