"He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

My question is, why is an individual with a criminal record, rage, and anger management issues, allowed to own and carry a weapon? Approved by the HOA to patrol the community?

Zimmerman, the 28-year-old Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer who shot the unarmed 17-year-old Martin to death last month, was fired from a job securing illegal house parties for “being too aggressive,” according to the New York Daily News, which quoted a former colleague of Zimmerman’s. According to the co-worker, Zimmerman worked for two agencies that provided security for house parties from 2001 to 2005.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html

[freshwest]

1. Major problem with privatization: No accountability because records are private! No way they'd know.

An unstable or abusive person can run from one place to another and do multiple acts that in public would go on their record and prevent them being hired.

This is one of the biggest source of abuse by agencies that act in the name of government, through private vendors. The employees won't report abuse because the hierarchy is tighter and the rules non-existent.

Their incentive is stronger to keep things under wraps. Most of the people in these jobs are not qualified and cannot pass a background check to do public work, and hate state workers for that reason.

Zimmermann appeared for a person his age, to have a spotty and erratic resume. But in explaining his charge for assaulting an LEO to the local sheriff academy, he banked heavily on Mom and Dad's connections with the system. So he was forgiven by them.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions as to why...

[grasswire]

2. does the Sanford PD protect the illegal house parties?

Is there some kind of racket going on there?

[zeemike]

6. Not to mention under table money

Which makes it tax evasion unless he claimed it.

[freshwest]

11. That part was puzzling. How can it be illegal to have a party in a private home?

It's in several accounts when I googled it. Just what is an illegal house party? If there was private security employed at a private house, why would the police be involved?

It's bizarre to me that they needed very many security people for a house party. It sounds weird. What were they expecting to happen with their guests?

Someone should have called the police about injuring this woman, but it's not in the accounts. Perhaps home owner's insurance took care of her injury or she could have been paid to be quiet.

I can't find anything to explain this illegal aspect, so I don't know why the police would be involved. Do you think there was a report filed by the woman, and the police did nothing, as they have before?

But the city of Sanford sounds more and more like the west wild at this point.

[TorchTheWitch]

12. I was trying to figure out what an illegal house party is, too

In this case I'm guess it had something to do with prostitution since the story keeps mentioning women. I'm guessing, but I think he may have been working as security for an outcall stripper agency where prostitution is involved.

Other than that, I have no idea what's meant here as an illegal house party. I wish they would have explained that since it could mean damn near anything.

[freshwest]

13. I hadn't thought of that, but it would fit. This case just gets sleazier all the time.

While googling I found details of a number of domestic violence reports against Zimmermann. He was really nasty to women. The man is a complete and total mess.

[grasswire]

14. alcohol to MINORS

that's what "illegal house parties" are, and apparently rampant in FL.

Considering the fact that there are companies that exist to provide security to these illegal house parties, all that income is probably under the table, too.

So George was involved in criminal activity involving minors. Squeaky clean!

[freshwest]

20. There are companies that exist to help homeowners break laws? And they call Martin a criminal?

How back wards is all of this?

Sanford sounds like a scary, depressing place. Maybe it's just that area. Who in the world was it that paid for security at the parties?

I don't think there are enough jail cells in that place for all of these... miscreants.

[grasswire]

29. illegal house parties

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-29/news/31256491_1_robert-zimmerman-gated-community-security-guard

George Zimmerman was fired from his job as an under-the-table security guard for “being too aggressive,” a former co-worker told the Daily News.

Zimmerman, at the center of a firestorm for shooting an unarmed black teenager a month ago, worked for two different agencies providing security to illegal house parties between 2001 and 2005, the former co-worker said.

....................

From another site:

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/YouthIssues/Open-House-Parties-When-is-an-Open-House-Party-Illegal.html

More recently, open house parties often refer to parties within a house primarily at which young persons, often under the age of 21, drink alcohol and might also take illegal drugs. The popularity of such open house parties and the resulting problems that they sometimes cause has led some states to pass legislation specifically outlawing them.

For example, Florida statutes, chapter 856 defines an illegal open house party in the following way:

No person having control of any residence shall allow an open house party to take place at said residence if any alcoholic beverage or drug is possessed or consumed at said residence by any minor where the person knows that an alcoholic beverage or drug is in the possession of or being consumed by a minor at said residence and where the person fails to take reasonable steps to prevent the possession or consumption of the alcoholic beverage or drug.

A violations is punishable as a second degree misdemeanor.

[TorchTheWitch]

26. I think it makes more sense that he was working for an outcall stripper agency

and these days that almost always means prosititution and other illegal sex acts.

Underage drinking parties? They happen all over the place all the time, and I've never heard of anyone hiring security for them... security for WHAT exactly? I'm not seeing the reasoning behind hiring security for a drinking party just because some or most of the drinkers are minors.

Yep, he was likely being paid under the table, too. That's how most outcall stripper agencies work anyway. They provide the driver/security/boombox tech, and the strippers give them a percentage of their tips/fees. That way the agencies can keep the driver/security/boombox techs off the books completely as if they don't exist. I'm not seeing how a company that provides security for house parties illegal or otherwise can keep the security personnel off the books since providing security IS their business.

[freshwest]

31. Dad whined his son won't get to 'mentor children' anymore. He shouldn't be around children at all.

Daddy is likely in denial. From what I saw of his record today, which was probably just a fraction of it, shows this was a disaster in the making.

I'd believe GZ more than his father and friends the way they've been trying to spin this. We haven't heard from him, and we won't until this gets to trial.

Your argument about what this an 'illegal' party was. That makes sense. And since they were breaking the law, they wouldn't have made a report of this assault.

[JVS]

32. Yup. House parties are big among the under 21 set. But this is the first I've heard of security...

for them.

[grasswire]

36. the "security" is a protection racket, likely

the cops cooperate with the security.

There's some graft going on with Sanford PD, betcha.

[slampoet]

52. Every Rave i ever threw or worked for had some kind of security. It was nessesary.

other wise things happen like $1000 worth of DJ equipment going bye bye.

[aquart]

33. Which would explain how the cops knew him and protected him.

Because he could blow a profit center for them.

[WillyT]

3. K & R !!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. I think *I* am going to have a party when they arrest this a-hole and a double-party

when they send him off to prison, I am praying for most of his life.

[enough]

4. Nothing must interfere with the right to own, wield and shoot guns.

Don't you know that? It's our highest right as human beings.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Apparently the real gun control is that wielded by the NRA and gun-lovers over the rest of us

I'm so F sick of guns, gun manufacturers, gun defenders, the NRA, gun supporters, gun buyers, gun sellers, and anyone else related and associated with f guns.

[freshwest]

27. I never much cared about it in its less malignant form. But it's part and parcel of the anti-Obama

Crowd, who grew up with old prejudices or are younger have been listening to hate radio calling for killing people, going back to the old 'Guns, God and Gays' mantra. It's gone way around the bend from what it once was, something that was last resort. And now the response to all of this is still political:

http://www.guns.com/ruger-no-order-until-june-ruger-halts-orders-through-may-2012-ruger-stock-rises.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. I never saw it that way till you pointed it out. You're right -

the gun lobby is made up of the same cast of characters that trash Obama at every turn.

[fascisthunter]

5. coockoo bird!

Sorry NRA but fuck you too! You are just as responsible... you were warned this shit would happen and you made it possible, so fuck you!

[ManiacJoe]

7. Plea bargains are a common cause.

Start with charges that would result in gun rights being revoked. Allow them to be plead down to non-qualifying charges. Too many prosecutors care more about their win/lose record than doing the right thing.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. Why are gun rights not revoked BEFORE plea bargains? I don't get it.

I swear sometimes I think this entire's country laws and regulations are designed by mentally fucked up individuals.

[cr8tvlde]

8. About Zimmerman...does he live with his parents

in this upscale complex...does he have a "real" job? Watching tv all day (with Mom and Dad) and nothing else to do can make for a pretty screwed up 28-year-old. Could be he has mental problems and they've had to protect him for a long time.

[grasswire]

15. the parents live in another community

His name was on the deed to their home, but was taken off at some point.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. He's married with two young kids

As I understand it, he was renting the home in the gated community.

Does not live with his parents.

[freshwest]

18. Read the full story at this Huffington Post link. It's an eye opener:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html

This man was/is a time bomb. Anything could have set him off. He was harassing the neighbors by following them all the way to their doors!

They complained. Yet nothing was done. Another link showed the details of the domestic violence charges and they are nasty, including orders of protection.

There were numerous incidents with strangers that he had followed in cars on other occasions and tried to provoke fights with.

He fits the profile of a stalker, IMHO. I would not have wanted him in my neighborhood, period.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. He's a psycho and he needs to be behind bars now. The Sanford PD and the State Atty

are a bunch of racist assholes, and I hope they're reading this. There's no more that need be said.

[northoftheborder]

9. In my opinion, the best thing one can say about this dude is that he is the epitome of a TOTAL LOSER

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. He's a loser, yes, but he's also a murderer. nt

[Mariana]

10. I think it's pretty obvious that he was working himself

into a rage when he went after Trayvon.

[pokerfan]

19. “These assholes always get away.”

and "fucking <whatever>." Yeah, he was raging.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Zimmerman apparently gets his jollies attacking and hurting others nt

[pokerfan]

17. It was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker, who the newspaper didn't name. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When dude snapped, he snapped.” The Daily News said Zimmerman earned $50 to $100 a night for the parties. He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

[HeiressofBickworth]

28. My understanding of a "house party" is

a semi-public music/dance event held in a warehouse or other large vacant building, with or without permission. "House" also describes a type of music. Semi-public seems to mean that an announcement goes out, probably twitter or something, that an event is being held at a particular place, and it's not always the same place. Just like any dance club, there is a cover charge. Alcohol is available, but not strictly monitored. Drugs are a clandestine thing at these events. Who sponsors them? Well, from what I've been told, it depends -- sometimes its the band, sometimes is some other kind of promoter. The "illegal" part comes from the lack of lease of a venue, appropriate licensing or taxes for the event which would apply to legitimate events, not to mention the outright illegal activities with alcohol and drugs.

So how do I know? I sure haven't been to one (hell, I'm a 66 year old grandmother), but I had a friend (my age) who, a few years ago, went to house parties in Holland where she lived. She was such an adventurer; she tried to get me to go to one with her when she was visiting Seattle. I declined. She loved the music and was a great dancer until ALS robber her of her mobility.

[JVS]

30. That sounds more like a "rave". House parties are much lower key.

A house party is typically a party among college aged people (often across the legal drinking age) that are hosted by the dwellers of a house (or apartment). The living room, kitchen, and whatever common space there is in the dwelling are open to the partygoers, although bedrooms are generally shut off from the public. Usually there's a keg of beer or 2 and a few bottles of liquor in the kitchen. House partys are not by invitation only, and bringing a pal along is good form. No meal is served but it isn't unusual for there to be snacks like chips or chex mix. Guests often bring along a bag of chips or a bit of beer to keep the party going, unless the house party is thrown in fundraiser mode. Fundraiser mode is where anyone can show up at the door and pay $5 for a plastic cup that entitles them to as much beer as they want. These can be a good way for a group of roommates to make rent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_party

[HeiressofBickworth]

37. thanks for the clarification

I was relating information told to me by a friend who attended both raves and house parties -- but in Holland, not the US. She indicated that the difference for her was the type of music, not the venue or organization.

[libodem]

38. I'd start by suing

The shit out of the HOA. Next the Stanford PD. And the the perpetrator. No doubt he did it. Wonder what country is in by now?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. That's what I think - that the asshole is in Peru, with the aid of the NRA, the Sanford PD, & the

State Attorney's Office.

[Honeycombe8]

40. Having a temper doesn't disqualify from anyone from buying a gun. As for the criminal record...

was it a felony or misdemeanor? It's possible the laws against gun buying/carry license apply only to felonies.

Almost every grown man can be said to have a temper. If they went by that, almost no man would be able to buy and carry a gun. Besides, hwo would they determine that? Post a notice in the paper of everyone wanting to buy a gun, asking for stories of temper? What a nightmare that would be. For every story of a bad temper, there would be a story of him not having a bad temper.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. "Having a temper" - isn't that an elegant way to say "anger management issues?"

Individuals with anger management issue quite often end up murdering others.

Guns are for murdering others, and apparently guns are being sold in this country to people who are mentally unstable, psychotic, or have a desire to murder.

[Honeycombe8]

42. "Having a temper" is what you posted as what was said about GZ.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “

That's what you posted.

Whether he had a temper or "anger management issues" as you diagnosed, is in the eye of the beholder, unless you have been examined & diagnosed by a psychiatrist or psychologist.

That's my point. How could a gun shop determine whether a man "has a temper" or "anger management issues." As a practical matter, it would be very hard to do, if possible at all. The co-worker said he had a temper. That can be said about most of the men in the country, besides being a subjective and non-expert opinion.

That's why gun ownership goes by criminal conviction record and things like that. That is a definite thing that can be checked.

I'd also disagree that most men with anger management issues kill people. There again, you get into trying to determine who in the popoulation qualifies as having "anger management issues." Do you have a list of those people?

The problem, IMO, is not the gun. It was that this guy had some issues that everyone knew about, but no one did anything about it. It was foreseeable that an overzealous guy roaming the neighborhood with a loaded weapon would end up hurting or killing someone. And no one intervened. Incl. his family. We have a neighborhood watch. I can tell you that if one of our watch members took to roaming the streets with a gun, looking for so-called criminals, we'd do something about it. We would KNOW that he was dangerous & something bad would happen sooner or later.

That's why you had the statements by homeowner watch group members almost right away dissassociating themselves with GZ. They KNOW they are partly responsible, and are taking steps to not be held accountable, both morally and civilly, when the Trayvon Martin lawsuit is filed (and it will be).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

43. Weapons to kill (which is what guns are) should not be sold. However, if they absolutely must...

they need to be sold after an exhaustive psychological exam and background check, and that's not being done.

[Honeycombe8]

47. I disagree. You must be from an area where guns are just bad things. I grew up around

guns. They are used for hunting and protection without incident, almost always.

I understand that people want to blame someTHING. But IMO, it's the person.

You just don't understand what an "exhaustive pschological exam" means. It's impossible to do that to begin with, unless you're in the national security business, and secondly, you'd end up with a lot of little stories & facts and trivia, so it would be totally subjective as to who would qualify to be able to buy a gun or not. I, someone without psych. problems but maybe had a suicide attempt 30 years ago might not be able to buy a gun, but someone who successfully defended a domestic abuse charge would be able to. It would be totally up to the gun seller. It also would revert to paying bribes, or knowing someone. And criminals. Criminals will always have guns.

I have a gun for protection. I think it's a right to be able to buy another gun for protection, if I want to.

There have recently been a couple of murders in the news. The weapons were a hammer and a bat. Should we make those weapons illegal? Or was it the people, maybe, who used those items to kill people that are to blame?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. The gun-lovers argument is that ultimately it's not things that cause damage - it's what people do

that causes the damage.

If that were applied, then we would be able to buy over the counter fission products (for the purpose making bombs), radioactive products, arsenic, and many other products that are dangerous.

None of these products go out by themselves and kill anyone.

They are used BY PEOPLE to kill others.

However, that is precisely why they're illegal and cannot be bought over the counter.

Very close tabs are kept on anyone who might or could have access to any of these products. It's not merely a matter of practicing with these products, then getting a license to buy as many as possible.

The same needs to apply to guns. Guns don't shoot themselves, but they are used by people to shoot other human beings.

I'm all for gun ownership being made illegal, or so difficult that guns eventually disappear except for hunting (which I find heinous, since we no longer rely on shooting animals to feed ourselves).

Gun laws need to include a requirement of a BRAND NEW LICENSE to be issued for each new gun that a person purchases.

If you have enough money to be buying a new gun, you sure as hell can afford to pay for a new license.

[Honeycombe8]

49. A gun's purpose is not solely to kill a person. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I will never support the prevention of the masses from buying guns. The problem with democracy and a free society that inevitably some crazies are able, through their rights, to do terrible things. In order to prevent that, we'd have to have a locked down, autocratic society. I'd prefer the former.

There is a difference between guns and bombs, of course. Those are considered weapons of mass destruction, and there is no other purpose than the killing of people and destruction of property. I support the banning of glocks and machine guns, and the like, for that reason. (We can buy arsenic OTC, as far as I know. And radioactivity is everywhere, but we can't buy it in a certain form that is used to make weapons of mass destruction.)

You don't need a license to buy and own a gun. I don't know if you're aware of that, since you seem to want a "new" license for every gun. You only need a license to carry a concealed weapon, and to get that, you have to go through a special training course, which costs money. I think Zimmerman had a carry license. (But you don't need a carry license to carry a gun in view in your car.)

There are so many guns around in the country. Most of them never harm a person or are involved in a crime or murder. Gun control advocates are overly focused on it, I think, because of the way guns are used in big city areas of crime, like Chicago, Detroit, etc. But most of thecountry is not Chicago or Detroit. It's OomaLooma, GA, where everyone owns a gun, every man hunts, and no one gets murdered by those guns, although a criminal with a Saturday Night Special might murder someone. That is the reality that gets gun owners upset.

Maybe Chicacgo and Detroit and places with a high incidence of gun crimes can outllaw guns there?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. Since we no longer rely on killing animals ourselves to eat them, guns have only one purpose

And what's the difference between a gun and a bomb?

[Zalatix]

50. What would you say if deaths by guns were replaced with deaths by knives?

Outlaw knives?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. Heck no, here's why:

Let me explain it by example:

Last week, there was an attempted homicide at an FSU dorm. The person arrived with a knife and stabbed his girlfriend several times in the back and in the back of the head. He then stabbed himself, saying, "I hope you die and I'm going to die too," or some such thing.

The perp was apprehended, is in custody, and the woman was taken to the hospital.

She's alive.

If that knife had been a gun, that wouldn't have been the case. That's what gun-lovers refuse to address. They dance around the issue, they jump, scream, holler and invent absurd situations which they hope will defend their gun-loving stance against those who understand that guns have only one purpose: to kill human beings.

Let me ask you this. If someone were trying to kill you or one of your beloved family members, which would you want in that person's hand, a knife or a gun if you HAD TO pick one? Hmm?

[Zalatix]

54. Neither, if they're good at wielding that weapon.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. I wish I'd bet someone here you would refuse to answer

What, would it incriminate you if you responded, because it would prove your argument is useless?

[Zalatix]

56. I did answer. I said, neither. You just don't like the answer.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. And I asked if you were going to be attacked with either no matter what

But the reason you chose not to answer (by answering neither) is because you know what my next comment would be.

You'll defend guns till your last breath.

[Zalatix]

58. I don't want my throat slit or a knife flying into my face any more than I want to be shot.

Do you get it yet?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. You're playing gun-defending games, so run along and play them with someone else nt

[cr8tvlde]

44. When a large man picks up a drunk girl...literally

and throws her physically and injures her ankle, that's a bit beyond the pale as a temper tantrum. Two-year-olds have temper tantrums.

We don't know her race, of course. Had her head hit something, she could have been permanently injured or dead...who knows. But somehow, this episode is on his record. One would imagine the girl and/or parents called someone and there must have been a police report and who knows, some settlement, but we wouldn't know about it. (I know it's assuming a lot)

Just like walking while carrying candy and iced tea, there's no law against being drunk on private property.

He has a record of violence...not temper tantrums. They were recorded, as we read about them, but dropped and not prosecuted. Given he had a consistent record of violence, had he been punished and not coddled and enabled by his father's magistrate position...whose office would have had to prosecute him, I believe he would not have been able to get a gun.

Temper tantrum...anger management...homicidal is a continuum.

[Initech]

45. One of my good friends is a former bar bouncer.

He's had to toss drunks - and has quite a few stores about them - but he's never injured anybody in the process. If these reports are accurate - it's looking more and more like Zimmerman has a history of abuse and violence, and he should be locked up.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. Seems as if he was always a loose cannon. nt