You read it here first?

[RobertEarl]

Biden for president with Warren as VP.

A winning ticket.

[MADem]

1. Because two older northeastern candidates will resonate like mad in the heartland!!!!

[merrily]

2. I take your point but I never thought of Delaware as North.

I thought it was considered mid Atlantic or some such. But, your point holds.

They've pretty much steered clear of the Northeast since Kennedy--and he put LBJ on the ticket. (Gore put Lieberman on the ticket, but that was a mistake, IMO, despite the alleged balance of North and South.)

Of course, Texas went redder in Presidentials after Kennedy, and California (luckily for Democrats) went bluer in Presidentials after that.

[MADem]

6. It is mid-Atlantic, but big picture, it's north of the Mason-Dixon. Also, Biden is from the

CREDIT CARD state, and he owes his career to those guys. I just don't think it's a good ticket.

The last two candidates from MA haven't done very well (Kerry, Dukakis). Great guys, make no mistake, I happen to especially like them, but our "MA" vibe doesn't translate too well, I don't think. It takes a shitload of charisma to overcome it. Even JFK couldn't do it alone--he sent out a never-ending supply of relatives, some of them glamorous (Peter Lawford, e.g. and his knockout of a high-fashion wife) to blanket the nation with "close to the throne" enthusiasm.

Lieberman was Gore's "anti-Clinton" talisman. Everyone was ripshit and in high dudgeon about "Monica," and to avoid getting that stink on himself, Gore picked the one senator who stood up in the Senate and CONDEMNED Clinton for his conduct--he gave a real barn-burner of a speech. Everyone forgets that, but that was how Gore "got over" Monica. Anytime anyone asked, Gore's answer was "Well, I picked Lieberman, didn't I?" and they stopped asking. It was an INOCULATION. Second, the whole "First Jew" thing was a bit of pizzazz to what otherwise would have been a rather humdrum campaign. Donna Brazille was too busy putting Gore in forest green and khaki and jeans instead of the dark suit/red tie/polished shoes he was most comfortable in (and letting pictures of him with his enormous penis centered on the page be plastered all over magazines like Rolling Stone) but Lieberman's job was to energize a segment of the population that would be guaranteed to deliver FLORIDA. And we know what happened there....

He was elected, and he wuz robbed...

[merrily]

9. Yes, I think the country has been turned against the Northeast.

"Elites." "Establishment." Etc. Got discredited along with the Ivy Leagues. Who knew education at the nation's highest-rated universities would get a bad rap?

A lot of Presidents until Kennedy came from these parts, some good, some not so good. But, maybe giving other parts of the country more of a shot is not a bad thing for the country.

Lieberman was Gore's "anti-Clinton" talisman.

Maybe, but all three of them were co-founders of the DLC. I don't think many outside the beltway were aware of such things then. I don't even thing many who are not political junkies are aware of such thing now. But, whatever Gore intended, Lieberman was a mistake.

[MADem]

10. Lieberman was all about severing Gore from Clinton, energizing and GOTV-ing Florida, and

he was also a prodigious fundraiser. He also created a huge amount of "peripheral" press because he was somewhat conservative in his faith and that was of interest to people. It was "free advertising" every time a TV or newspaper piece about how he walked to work on Friday came out, or what his wife Hadassah was up to, etc.

And he did deliver FL--even Pat Buchanan admits it. He knew all those little old Jewish ladies weren't there to vote for him.

The DLC was wrapping shit up by 08. Their survival would have required that Gore win, and even at that, the players at that outfit would have probably all slid into administration jobs, leaving the DLC brand to reinvent itself as a fundraising arm. if it survived at all.

[merrily]

11. I still think Lieberman was a mistake.

Certainly not the only mistake Gore made back then, but a mistake.

That someone at the top (well, one down from the top) of the Democratic ticket in 2000 got nowhere in a Democratic primary in 2004 and campaigned for McCain Palin in 2008 screams "mistake" to me.

[MADem]

14. There really wasn't anyone else who had all those "powers."

Particularly WRT winning Florida. He either needed a Jew, a Cuban-American, or a Floridian, or a Jewish-Cuban Floridian (now that would be a powerhouse candidate). He could have run with "some Floridian" but that wouldn't help him nationally, and the VP candidate needed to go up against Big Dick Cheney.

Cheney had cred as a former SECDEF, so someone who could push back on him vis a vis national security issues (and Lieberman had a VERY good portfolio in that regard, to include the "right" position on Israel) was needed.

Lieberman did what he was chosen to do--it's just that Bush stole it. That's a separate issue from Lieberman being a chiselling shit who shouldn't have run as an independent in his Senate race six years later. Had he been classy and accepted defeat gracefully, he would have found himself with a Cabinet position in 2009...but naah, he HAD to be a greedy pig about "his" seat. He screwed himself out of a cabinet position, or maybe even a high profile an ambassadorship. Greed will do that...

[merrily]

15. Obviously, we disagree about Lieberman.

it's just that Bush stole it.

Yes, but that does not mean that Gore did not make some serious mistakes during that campaign. Both things can be so.

[MADem]

42. I am not a fan of Holy Joe. I strongly disapproved of his conduct in 2006 and beyond.

I just know why he was put on the ticket in 2000, and he delivered what he was supposed to deliver--separation from Clinton for Gore as a consequence of his "moral" speech on the senate floor, and an energized Jewish vote that would help greatly with Florida, plus a "first" in terms of a member of a minority religion on the ticket. He did what he was asked to do.

[merrily]

50. Again, we disagree. However, the subject is moot and I don't see much point in rehashing it or

debating the individual points you keep raising.

[MADem]

55. You're disagreeing with verifiable facts, but OK, fine. nt

[merrily]

58. Not really. Your posts about why Gore's choosing Lieberman as running mate

was not a mistake have contained plenty of your own opinions and interpretations, as well as your own conclusions.

However, since the issue has been moot over a decade, I've very obviously been trying to avoid pointless arguments.



Guess you'll have to keep arguing on your own..

[MADem]

59. You can believe what you'd like. nt

[billhicks76]

28. I Don't Think So

You two always comment in tandem
But i just don't see it. Biden is almost non-existent in the media and there's nothing new about him to change it. Worst of all he started the failed and unpopular DRUG WAR ramp up in 1986 with its evil mandatory minimums and targeting of the healing herb, marijuana, while padding the coffers of violent, thieving enemies of decent people like the DEA and cops. He still is a main force opposing medical marijuana and recreational marijuana which only a dunce can't see the benefits of legalizing. I like that he was correct about partitioning Iraq into three countries. Warren should be President and I would like someone like Gavin Newsome as VP.

[RainDog]

30. This is why I would NEVER support Biden as president

I wasn't going to put it in those terms, but since you mention it...

http://stopthedrugwar.org/speakeasy/2008/aug/24/joe_bidens_awful_record_drug_pol

Biden has sponsored more damaging drug war legislation than any Democrat in Congress. Hate the way federal prosecutors use RICO laws to take aim at drug offenders? Thank Biden. How about the abomination that is federal asset forfeiture laws? Thank Biden. Think federal prosecutors have too much power in drug cases? Thank Biden. Think the title of a “Drug Czar” is sanctimonious and silly? Thank Biden, who helped create the position (and still considers it an accomplishment worth boasting about). Tired of the ridiculous steroids hearings in Congress? thank Biden, who led the effort to make steroids a Schedule 3 drug, and has been among the blowhardiest of the blowhards when it comes to sports and performance enhancing drugs. Biden voted in favor of using international development aid for drug control (think plan Columbia, plan Afghanistan, and other meddling anti-drug efforts that have only fostered loathing of America, backlash, and unintended consequences). Oh, and he was also the chief sponsor of 2004’s horrendous RAVE Act.

I think the Drug Czar's office should be shuttered because its sole purpose is to propagandize Americans. It has no value to this nation for this reason, but does much harm. Well, it does pay some nice fat salaries, which a study indicated were unearned because their work lead to more interest in marijuana rather than less. lol.

Frankly, seeing northeastern Democratic pols' reactions to reforming marijuana laws makes me unlikely to support anyone from the area unless they indicate they are not infected with reefer madness.

It's heinous for white liberals in the northeast to support arresting blacks as just policy. It's just repulsive.

[RobertEarl]

36. I agree. Biden sucks on the drug wars

But he didn't invent the drug wars.

Lets see what his position is if he wants us Liberals to work for him. I think he's working a new plan out as we speak. He's not running for Delaware senate again, so he can drop all that. But yeah, he doesn't retract and ask for forgiveness he's not gonna make it beyond VP.

We'll see.

[billhicks76]

41. Drug War Killed It For Me

I don't care if he invented it. He refurbished and escaalated it.

[billhicks76]

40. Thank You

We need to stop supporting sell outs and suffering fools.

[RainDog]

13. I never knew Gore had an enormous penis

thanks for pointing that out! I'm not very good at objectifying men, tho I try.

And, frankly, penises in pants are confusing to me because they seem untethered... I just never think to look at some guy's pants. I always look people in the eye. The eyes.

I always liked Gore, in spite of choosing Lieberman and the thing Tipper did with music labeling.

I'd rather have Russ Feingold than Biden, personally. I really like Feingold and I think Democrats are going to rue the day they listened to the third way that populism is a third rail... populism is EXACTLY what will draw voters to third party candidates since neither party is addressing the big issue that revenues don't come from people who are putting all their income into paying the damn rent.

If we had proportional representation, Democrats and Republicans would lose a lot of voters to populist candidates - which, of course, is why neither party would ever support the idea.

I like Gore in a suit and tie - I agree he seems most comfortable that way - he's a wonk, embrace it.

[MADem]

18. Ha ha--it was the "talk of the town" the minute that cover came out. Really.

Stuff like this was everywhere, even the late night talk shows were doing bits on it:

http://articles.philly.com/2000-10-27/news/25587396_1_tipper-gore-big-issue-undecided-voters

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0011/weapon/

http://thelantern.com/2000/10/the-down-there-issue-might-factor-into-the-presidential-race/

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/the-boner-awards-2000/Content?oid=1185102

The popular message boards of the day had the story as well:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-43545.html


If DU had existed back then, there would have been a half dozen threads on the topic.

[RobertEarl]

17. Kerry was robbed, too

I don't know why you have a problem with NE Liberals. They are about the best.

[MADem]

19. Where did you get that "I" "have a problem with NE Liberals?"

You clearly do not read for comprehension.

What do you think the "MA" stands for in my username?

indeed.

Stop pushing false memes about me. This is the second time you've misstated my POV and I am noticing it.

[RobertEarl]

21. Chill, dude, it's just a discussion

""The last two candidates from MA haven't done very well (Kerry, Dukakis). Great guys, make no mistake, I happen to especially like them, but our "MA" vibe doesn't translate too well,...""

[MADem]

22. It's not "just a discussion" when you repeatedly twist my words and POV.

I AM noticing it. The quote you provided clearly didn't prove what you wanted it to prove, unless you think "Great guys" means "jerks" in some coded language I don't speak, and you think "I happen to especially like them" means "I hate them."

You insinuate that I don't like MA politicians (after I have said the exact opposite) and then you play the "Chill dude" game, like I'm being unreasonable for objecting to your bogus characterization.

I'm spelling out what you're doing, here, so there will be no confusion. Your commentaries are without context, and I'm not sure if that's accidental or deliberate.

[RobertEarl]

25. You said something about them not being able to win

Kerry won, dude.

Just because they are form the NE is no indication they can't win. Which is what one could easily infer from your statement.

You can retract it now if you like. That would be okay, it's just a discussion, no one expects you to be perfect.

[MADem]

56. Gee, was I sleeping during the Kerry and Dukakis White House years?

I don't think I was.

You need to read more carefully and stop broad brushing. Your words are here for anyone to read.

YOU are the one who needs to retract, and YOU are the one who needs to read carefully and contextually.

You should be ashamed of yourself, but anyone can see what you're pulling, here.

[MADem]

54. You need to stop mischaracterizing me. This will happen when you take the time to carefully read

what I write.

I am getting tired of your cheap and false accusations. indeed.

[MannyGoldstein]

51. Warren is cut from much different cloth

than Dukakis and Kerry. I could never see either of the latter playing well outside Mass, or at least outside the Norteast.

[MADem]

53. Both played well enough to get the Democratic Party's Presidential nomination...but, whatever. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

57. Of course, you're right. Blew my mind.

Still does.

[RobertEarl]

3. Heartland?

Nebraska? Kansas? Alabama?

Like we need them?

One name: Obama. Did he need the heartland? Bwahahaha.

[MADem]

4. Illinois.Michigan. Wisconsin. Iowa. Ohio. MN. You're very dismissive of the Heartland, and you

really shouldn't be. That kind of attitude is how people LOSE elections. Big clue--yes, we DO need them. Obama most certainly was grateful for the electoral votes he got from those unneeded states clustered up there like grapes ready for the picking.

Your "bwahaha"-ing suggests you aren't paying attention.

How Obama Won the Heartland Vote

[RobertEarl]

8. Personal attacks don't become you

I am paying attention. I saw what Obama did. I saw what the Liberal progressive base of the party did in getting the mid west to vote for a very unlikely candidate.

The question is: Is Biden going to get the progressive base to go to work for him? He'll beat Clinton doing that especially with Warren on the ticket.

[MADem]

12. You're "bwahahah" ing at me, and you've got the chutzpah to falsely suggest that I am

personally attacking you because I tell you a few facts? You aren't paying attention and I provided you a map and a YT link that proves it. You're talking about Alabama (the south, not the heartland) and your ARGUMENT is what's the problem. It's just bad. It makes no sense, and it's not smart politics.

Biden is from the CREDIT CARD state and he is deeply indebted to that money crowd. You're suggesting he'd be a good partner with "Take Down the Banksters" Warren, and that's just not a believable argument either.

[RobertEarl]

16. So don't vote for him and her.

no problem, dude.

I didn't see your image. The heartland to me is as I stated. You see it different, no need to get upset, dude. Calm down, take it easy.

[MADem]

20. I won't--because that pairing will not happen, not because, as you tried to infer, I have any

animus towards either of them.

[RobertEarl]

23. Dude

You've hardly said anything nice about either of them... just that they will lose.

We still are a big money political system. Big money will be a big player, so Biden squeaks in. Warren counters that and makes an interesting ticket. Doesn't matter where they are from, this is national stuff, these elections.

Just look at what Obama has done/did.

Biden is the VP now. Has name recognition and great support from the party. Like I say: Will the hard working Liberal Left go to work in 2016 like they did for Obama? You've seemingly overlooked that key, focusing instead on where they are from, as well as other errors, so one has to wonder if you are as wise as you put yourself up to be.

[MADem]

24. Now you're changing the subject from Kerry and Dukakis to Biden and Warren.

I've said that they aren't a good pairing. They will not lose because they will not run together.

You don't put two people from the same region, who are close to the same age, on a Presidential ticket, especially when one has spent his entire career supporting credit card companies, and the other is concerned about overwhelming, crushing debt. It's an oil and water pairing.

That's not "not nice" either--that's just fact.

If you want to persist in touting a fantasy ticket, knock yourself out.

[RobertEarl]

26. Are you a Clinton supporter?

This is just a discussion, dude. But, hey, knock yourself out of a reasonable discussion if you like. Geeez.

[MADem]

27. You're doing it again. I think I will "knock myself out" of this UNREASONABLE discussion

because it's going nowhere.

[RobertEarl]

29. Eh?

You always end up stomping out, so, goodbye, for now.

The beauty of a Biden - Warren ticket is that is sets Liz up for 2020, if Biden decides to retire. I don't believe that where they are from will dissuade many voters away from that ticket. Sure, Biden has some personal negatives, but with the Obama people coaching him I think he can encourage people to work for him and her.

Having said that if Warren decides to run in 2016, watch out!

[MADem]

44. Not stomping out just not interested in running around in circles with you.

You can call your magic ticket beautiful, but Biden has major health issues (look up AVMs--he had two of them and almost died) and he's too "connected" with the credit card industry to fit well with an anti-bankster, who is also too old to be paired with another old candidate. It's oil and water.

[merrily]

5. Obama did get the electoral votes of even red, red Indiana in 2008.

I don't know if Alabama is considered "heartland."

[merrily]

7. Biden did give me the two biggest laughs I had during the

primary debates.

One was, in reference to Guiliani "Noun, verb, 911." I guffawed. As Colbert might say, "It's funny 'cause it's true."

The other was his entire answer on being asked if he could avoid verbosity. "Yes."

I like a candidate who can make me laugh (other than by making stupid mistakes, ala Dimson).

If Bob Dole or Al Gore had shown more of their senses of humor before they lost their respective races, who knows? They were both pretty funny afterward. I would never have voted for Dole anyway, and I voted for Gore anyway, but who knows how others might have gone?

[conservaphobe]

31. That would be awesome. nt

[bigwillq]

32. No, thank you.

I've had enough of Biden.

Warren is not a bad VP pick, but I hope she stays in the Senate a bit longer.

[MineralMan]

33. For Pete's Sake.

Why on earth would anyone think you could predict something like that. There's not a single person on DU with the knowledge needed to make such a prediction with any degree of accuracy.

Sheesh!

[RobertEarl]

34. Another personal attack?

Why, you are just full of them!

Can't you ever stay on topic?

Wait, aren't you the guy who posted the stuff about the cops not EVER looking over your cellphone? Well, that theory of yours is shot all to hell, so anything you say after that is pretty well useless, eh?

[MineralMan]

35. Not an attack. You do not know that Alabama is not

part of the Heartland. I rest my case. You are not qualified to predict who the candidates in 2016 will be. Nobody on DU is qualified to do that yet.

My cellphone is off 99.9% of the time. If it is on, I'm calling my wife or AAA.

[RobertEarl]

37. Chill out, dude

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:03 AM - Edit history (1)

It's just a discussion forum.

But your crap about the prediction that the cops are not checking out phones? Now that has been proven to be hog-swallow. You ever get smart with that or you still stuck on that blown-the-fuck out of the water bs?

[MineralMan]

38. Thanks for the advice, for sure.

Let me consider it...Nope, I won't chill out, er, dude. You like that word, so I used it, too.

[MADem]

45. Whenever you correct that guy on a matter of fact, he calls it a personal attack.

It's a bit of a perversion of the term.

[MineralMan]

48. Oh, well.

So it goes...

[MADem]

49. All you can do is consider the source! nt

[zappaman]

39. Bwahahaha!

Chill out dude.
Bookmarking for future laughs!

[H2O Man]

43. I'd love that.

I'd definitely work for that ticket!

[Rex]

46. Sure that would be a sweet ticket. nt

nt

[tammywammy]

47. I thought crappy predictions was CK John's schtick.

[jwirr]

52. I am sorry but I think Elizabeth should be kept in the Senate where she can continue to introduce

bills that can fix things. A VP has little power to change anything. I suspect the rethugs and banksters would be delighted if she were our VP.

[LanternWaste]

60. Prophecies are cool...

Prophecies are much more cool when wearing a sandwich board... maybe a few bible verses scrawled at the bottom

With or without the sandwich board though, about the same amount of credibility.