California 80-year-old satisfied after gunning down fleeing pregnant home intruder

[phantom power]

It's all about sending a message, you see.

Greer said that he was tackled and thrown to the ground but managed to get his .22-caliber revolver and confronted them as they ransacked a safe containing cash.

Seeing the gun, the couple ran out of the house and started down an alley.

“The lady, she couldn’t run as fast as the man, so I shot her in the back twice,” Greer explained. “She’s dead, but he got away.”

“She says, ‘Don’t shoot me, I’m pregnant! I’m going to have a baby!’ And I shot her anyway,” Greer said.

...

Greer, who suffered a severe shoulder and collarbone injury in the altercation, says he has no regrets about the shooting, “I shot her so that’s going to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/24/california-80-year-old-satisfied-after-gunning-down-fleeing-pregnant-home-intruder/

[Wait Wut]

1. What a great guy.

I wonder how he feels about abortion.

[Liberal_in_LA]

188. creepy old guy.

[NYC_SKP]

296. Blame the Victim article. FFS, Breaking into a private home is going to bring consequences.

Talk about shitty journalism, making a criminal couple the "victims" in this.

No wonder there's so much crime, there's no fear of being humiliated, the home defender is made out to be the bad guy.

Bad form, no doubt, and shooting her while they flee is a creepy thing to do, but not 1/10 as creepy as going into an old man's home to steal from him.

[Ikonoklast]

320. Shooting a fleeing felon in the back is murder.

Once they are no longer a threat to you and are leaving the scene, you no longer have the right to use deadly force against them.

You should know this.

[NYC_SKP]

321. We don't have those facts in evidence and we don't prosecute every act.

In this case, I hope no charges are filed.

That man was in pain and he was in terror.

Mitigating circumstances that most of the people in this thread have never known.

[Ikonoklast]

324. Mitigating circumstances like killing an unarmed, fleeing suspect.

Those are facts.

[NYC_SKP]

325. a fleeing old-man-beating criminal home burglary team with blood on their hands.

my heart bleeds for them, not.

[BklnDem75]

333. It's still murder

This isn't 'Nam, there are rules.

[NYC_SKP]

335. Manslaughter, the mitigating circumstances require lesser charges.

IMO, within the timeframe of having been beaten within an inch of your life, one is still feeling threatened, make no mistake about that.

Add to that his age and you have, at best, a manslaughter case.

This isn't the dude that camped out and set up a trap-- that would be murder.

[BklnDem75]

340. Manslaughter is unintentional killing

This killing is intentional.

[valerief]

201. Most killers are pro-lifers, I think. nt

[NYC_SKP]

306. ***** SHE WAS NOT PREGNANT*****

Posting this fact high in the thread for visibility, the autopsy showed she was NOT pregnant and the medical examiner declined to confirm whether or not she was shot in the back.

They were apparently still trying to get to his property after beating him severely, so he may have still feared for his safety.

I hope he's never charged, and the male, who has been captured, should be put away for life.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/tom-greer-burglar-not-pregnant_n_5622353.html

.

[moriah]

312. I think both the man and the accomplice are culpable and should be charged.

He said his side -- that they were running away, and he shot them in the back. If he was just mouthing off for the cameras, and she wasn't shot in the back while running away, he was an idiot to say it on camera but I hope it comes out he was just an idiot and not a murderer.

Otherwise, what occurred is taking the law into your own hands and enforcing the death penalty for robbery. Not self-defense.

[NYC_SKP]

315. I would have felt the same way until I was the victim of a threatening group....

....who I feared would become a repeat problem.

And, while I took no action, I clearly remember the fear and the feeling that nothing short of life in prison or moving to another planet would restore a feeling of safety.

And, this wasn't the man's first break in.

I'd prefer to know more details about what happen, and take what he said with a big grain of salt. Maybe he want's to sound tough when what he really was feeling was terror and pain.

The woman died, I'm glad there wasn't a child inside her. That's about the only positive in the story.

[Agschmid]

231. Hey.

[Wait Wut]

232. Welcome to DU.

To answer your question, many of my friends are vegetarians. I tried it once, it sucked. I'm not sure what your question has to do with this thread, but I would imagine from that adorable little guy you have there, that you're just looking for a fight.

You'll get one, eventually. If you make it.

[Wait Wut]

235. You addressed me.

Are you lost?

One more question, what makes you think I'm a woman?

[Archae]

2. What the hell was she doing breaking in to the guy's house in the first place?

Getting money for baby supplies?
No.

Most likely she and her boyfriend are tweakers.
So I have zero sympathy for her.

[tkmorris]

9. That's a real shame

You do realize there is a dead fetus as well, yes?

[Archae]

15. Yes, thanks to the Mom's stupidity.

I know what you mean, and yes. It is the baby who suffered, and died.

Both the girl and her boyfriend should have simply ran. Or surrendered.

Instead they attacked the old man, she got shot.

[Travis_0004]

40. Or not robbed the place

It doesnt excuse what the old guy did, and it doesnt mean the old guy should not be arrested, but if you dont want to get shot theb dont rob people.

[richmwill]

161. I agree. I feel sympathy for the fetus lost,

But for the woman, oh well. Break into a house to commit a crime, that's when you've made a decision. Sometimes violent ways get you back.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

10. Murder is never to be applauded.

And if you shoot someone after they're already fleeing, you generally tend to lose your protection from charges of manslaughter or murder.

[oldhippie]

20. Depends on the State

And if you shoot someone after they're already fleeing, you generally tend to lose your protection from charges of manslaughter or murder.

Generally, yes but not in Texas

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

24. This guy was apparently in California, not Texas. nt

[oldhippie]

30. That's correct ....

.... and in California he is pretty much toast. I lived in CA for twenty years before I moved to Texas. The self defense laws there are very different.

[kcr]

65. Good

His comments show he's sick.

[Lurker Deluxe]

207. How are they different.

Pretty much they are saying they have to make a decision on charges.

"Prosecutors will have to determine whether chasing after the suspects and firing on them outside the home goes beyond self-defense"

Pretty much the same way it would be in Texas. Heat of the moment and all of that stuff.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1473502/man-80-says-he-shot-burglar-after-pregnancy-plea/

"did not appear to be pregnant", "histories of similar crimes", "hit him with their fists and ultimately “body slamming” him to the floor, breaking his collar bone"

"Greer had been burglarized three times before and believed the same suspects were responsible"

I wouldn't hold your breath for the outcome here to be any different to what would happen in Texas, the most barbaric of places. Most likely no charges filed, and if they are will certainly be plead to probation.

[oldhippie]

211. I guess we will see .....

I lived in California for 20 years before moving to Texas 17 years ago. As a shooter and firearms instructor I am pretty familiar with the laws regarding use of deadly force in both places. I don't think he has much of a defense under CA law, though I am sure his lawyer will try. (California Penal Code 197) In Texas, use of deadly force IS authorized to prevent the escape of an actor that has committed certain crimes, or is escaping with stolen property. (Texas Penal Code Chapter 9) He would likely be no-billed anywhere except Austin or Houston. Even then a jury would acquit.

We'll see. I don't think this should take much time going through the courts as the shooter has admitted his role. Could be wrapped up by the end of the year.

[ripcord]

214. The case will never get filed

He will take a deal in exchange for probation, no DA is going to want to try this case.

[NYC_SKP]

301. I hope he's never charged. If he's charged, I'll donate to his defense fund.

Helpless man, repeat victim, no legal system there to help him, and probably too poor to move to a safer community.

[jberryhill]

328. mental state is an obvious affirmative defense

Banged his head on the floor and went nuts.

[Laffy Kat]

17. So you believe in the death penalty for burglary?

She was fleeing and he shot her in the back! Jesus.

[Lee-Lee]

26. It's not simple burglary

When you go into a person home when the person is home and assault them in the course of the robbery.

Even more reprehensible to do it to an elderly person.

Yes, if you break into an elderly persons home and assault them you deserve whatever they do when they defend themselves.

He was wrong to shoot as they fled, but that doesn't change that they deserve no sympathy.

[roguevalley]

34. I would think that she is dead would be enough to satiate everyone

with those opinions on this lthread but apparently I don't get out enough. NO SYMPATHY FOR THE DEAD PREGNANT WOMAN and uh ... sorry about the kid too which I also shot twice to make sure it was dead when you were running away and posing at that moment no imminent threat. This isn't Florida.

And I am old.

[Lee-Lee]

41. Sorry, people that abuse the elderly deserve no sympathy

Stealing from the elderly is bad enough.

Physically abusing them is reprehensible.

The combination doesn't make it any better.

It sucks the kid died, but it's no more a loss than had she chosen to abort. With a parent like that I don't know what kind of life it would have had even had this not happened, sadly.

[Laffy Kat]

54. Well I don't consider myself old and I still can't believe some of these posts on DU.

It's sad what has happened to us.

[Rex]

64. Yeah the gungeon doors must have been left open.

Usually, this kind of vile posting is kept in that group - sorry you have to see it...I agree it is pathetic and sad.

[valerief]

202. Yeah, they swarm on stuff like this faster than cockroaches flee the light. nt

[Rex]

204. If only the elderly man would have shown an ounce of mercy.

I can understand in America 2014 mercy is taboo, but I was completely on his side until he shot and killed the pregnant woman. The swarm is something to behold.

[Rex]

67. Nah...looking at the posters happy about the dead mom-baby...par the course for them.

Nothing strange about their reply...it reflects their overall posting here on DU.

[passiveporcupine]

197. I'm sorry, but he did not shoot her in self-defense.

It would be different if he did.

She was wrong to break in to his home. He was more wrong to shoot her in the back as she fled.

[NutmegYankee]

162. Wouldn't this technically be robbery?

The fact that the 80 year-old was thrown to the ground and substantially injured makes this a robbery versus a burglary. I don't condone him shooting a person in the back who is fleeing, but it sure as hell wasn't a simple burglary.

[Tommy2Tone]

186. Not burglary, it was home invasion

A person has the right to defend himself. It was a tragic state of affairs but she put her life and her babies in jeopardy by entering the mans house and then assaulting him.

It might be time for criminals to realize people have guns and will use them.

[moriah]

192. I'm in Arkansas, and even here shooting a fleeing person is right out.

Can't shoot them in the back, even if they're running away with your TV.

[Tommy2Tone]

293. Sure you can..

and get away with it. It happens every day.

[moriah]

294. Tell me, then, where the laws of Arkansas say shooting someone in the back is self-defense.

I'm waiting.

[Tommy2Tone]

365. Of course there are no such laws

but when it's the police against a person of color, laws have little to do with it.

[moriah]

366. Way to bump an ancient thread AND go completely off-topic.

Disrupt much?

[clarice]

257. Why was she in the man's house? nt

[jeff47]

19. It's handy when people announce they are monsters.

Shooting fleeing people is never acceptable. No matter how much bullshit you make up about them.

[oldhippie]

37. I am a monster .....

Just to get that out of the way ...

Shooting fleeing people IS acceptable under Texas law in similar circumstances. He would never be convicted by a Texas jury, in the unlikely event that it got by a Grand jury.

[jeff47]

46. The law and morality are only loosely coupled.

If they're fleeing, they are no longer a threat. Shooting them is horrific.

[kcr]

66. Of course they do

Typical Texas.

[TBF]

126. That says more about Texas than it does about the burglar. nt

[Hoyt]

128. Gun "enthusiasts" know all the laws that allow them to shoot people, even in the back.

I really think most don't want to miss an "opportunity" to kill.

[NutmegYankee]

169. Since you support mandatory classes for gun owners

What the hell did you think they taught in those classes? They teach safety and the state laws.

[Hoyt]

187. Ha, they teach when you can shoot. Ask Zimmerman.

Do you think some Yahoo that wants to carry a gun is really interested in when he can't shoot?

[NutmegYankee]

190. Why would I want to ask a murderer?

As for your question "Do you think some Yahoo that wants to carry a gun is really interested in when he can't shoot?" Uh, yeah they are. Those "can't" moments will get them in deep shit - unless they live in Florida.

This is what any gun class teaches - it teaches the states laws that apply to firearms, including what is legal for self defense and what isn't.

[Hoyt]

191. And the "students" are most interested in when they can shoot, that's why they are into

gunz. Make it tougher to shoot people, gun sales will plunge.

[NaturalHigh]

280. Do you even think about what you type?

Honestly - do you really think that everyone who owns a gun wants to shoot somebody? If so, I can only tell you that you're wrong.

[hack89]

358. So why do so few actually shoot someone?

we are talking about a tiny fraction of a percent.

Do you even think before you post such drivel?

[Hoyt]

359. "Few" is relative. Gun lovers think thousands is few. I don't. And, howsabout intimidation

with gunz. Of course, that's why a lot of folks have them.

[hack89]

360. But then you think every gun owner is a pre-murderer

so we do have to take that into consideration when considering your little gems.

[Hoyt]

361. You just don't get it. Every gun owner contributes to the problem by keeping gun manufacturers, gun

stores, gun shows, how-to-kill-with-your-gun-and-avoid-prosecution trainers, militias, etc., in business.

[hack89]

362. That is weak even by your standards.

can you at least try to put some effort into it?

[Hoyt]

363. ...

[hack89]

364. So?

I don't support open carry.

[clarice]

271. Or to commit a home invasion. nt

[XRubicon]

173. Do you live in Texas?

You belong there.

[clarice]

272. Don't mess with Texas !! nt

[LisaL]

189. Yes, he'd never be convicted in TX. Or even indicted.

But CA is pretty much opposite of TX.

[clarice]

258. What were they doing in the man's house again? nt

[jeff47]

261. Fleeing. (nt)

[clarice]

262. No... I mean before that. nt

[jeff47]

263. Doesn't matter. Fleeing means no imminent threat. (nt)

[clarice]

265. Does matter , Going through someone's safe IS an imminent threat. nt

[jeff47]

267. And since they were no longer doing that, the imminent threat was over.

And no, going through someone's safe isn't an imminent threat. Charging the person and knocking them down would be...except he didn't shoot then. She shot after they were fleeing.

[clarice]

269. I really am trying to understand your logic here.....

The only thing that I can think of is that you are personally so against guns....that
you have taken common sense and turned it into some "repeal the 2nd amendment"
logical pretzel.

[uppityperson]

273. Someone fleeing from you is an imminent threat? Someone running away is a threat?

[clarice]

274. Excuse me...I was conversing with Jeff. nt

[uppityperson]

275. You are excused. This is a forum where people jump in all the time. If you want a private conversati

conversation, try pm'ing them. Rather like you jumping into the conversation Jeff was having with Archae up this subthread.

[clarice]

276. Sorry...long day.....I responded in haste. I guess I'm gun shy from all...

of the heat I've taken from supposedly "enlightened , caring" people.
My apologies.

[uppityperson]

284. In the heat of the moment, it can be difficult to tell what is going on. For me, I would

not shoot someone in the back unless they were attacking someone else. And I sure as hell would not brag about shooting a woman in the back after she said she was pregnant to "send a message".

[roguevalley]

31. I do. she was alive. now she's dead. no chance to change. that old

man shot a pregnant woman dead. she was running away and told him she was pregnant not posing any threat and he shot her in the back. Twice. To make sure she was dead baby and all. He killed her when she was running away. I feel damned sorry for her.

I an sorry for the whole fucking world right now.

[Hekate]

70. Roguevalley -- has it been independently confirmed that she was in fact visibly pregnant?

She's a proven thief and abuser of the elderly; is it also possible she was capable of lying for sympathy?

I'm not picking on you in particular, but this thread has gone off on a tangent about "the kid," and "the baby," and seriously if she had been really visibly pregnant the EMTs and hospital emergency personnel would have gone out of their way to save the fetus by oxygenating its mother and so forth. Haven't heard a thing about that yet.

That old man was seriously injured by this lovely couple who the woman claimed were about to become parents.

[kcr]

73. The murderer bragged about it, said she begged for her and her baby's life. n/t

[Hekate]

77. He said "she said" which is a little different.

[kcr]

80. Nope

He wasn't making it up. He was bragging about what he heard. He's a cold hearted bastard.

[uppityperson]

142. He thought she was pregnant yet still shot her as she fled. He shot and killed a woman he thought

was pregnant, shot her in the back when he was no longer in danger. Then admitted that, bragged about it.

[Hekate]

322. Turns out she LIED. Imagine someone breaking an old man's bones, stealing from him....

...and then when the old dog turns out to still have some teeth -- who could have imagined that she might LIE to gain clemency?

[Marrah_G]

35. none at all?

really?

[LordGlenconner]

38. And there is part of the problem in our world

Little or no regard for human life by too many folks.

[Travis_0004]

185. It seems like the woman had little regard towards other humans as well.

[LordGlenconner]

217. She won't be upsetting your moral code anymore

So you can rest easy.

[PowerToThePeople]

224. So, good thing she got killed then.

Not.

[clarice]

277. Harsh. nt

[clarice]

255. Or other people's property. nt

[MH1]

237. So, shooting someone in the back is ok?

I realize they assaulted the guy, but apparently not with deadly force, and in any case they were running away.

The world has gotten vicious since I was a kid. I was raised that it was dishonorable - cowardly even - to shoot someone in the back.

[phil89]

240. Have to agree.

She suddenly cared about being pregnant when her life was in danger... But I guess it wasn't first on her mind while she was victimizing a senior citizen.

[CBGLuthier]

3. For the Love of Money is the Root of all Evil

He killed two people because they took his stuff.

[whatthehey]

4. ...and seriously injured an 80 yr old guy...

[CBGLuthier]

5. they pushed him to the ground

He killed a pregnant woman. They were thieves,

He is a monster.

[clarice]

278. "they pushed him to the ground" in his own house. nt

[Jenoch]

6. Did you read the story?

The male burglar ran off leaving his allegedly pregnant accomplice behind.

Assuming the facts of this case are accurate as presented in the news story (which is a big if, given the state of news reporting these days), the old man should face charges because he shot the woman in the alley behind the house apparently while she was fleeing. The other burglar should be prosecuted for felony murder.

[tkmorris]

11. Huh?

In what sense is the other burglar responsible for murder?

[Jenoch]

16. While the laws vary from state to state,

if somebody dies during the commission of a crime, the people that were also participating the crime are legally responsible for deaths that occur during the crime. The woman was killed during the commission of a crime, so her co-burglar is also legally responsible for her death. The charge is often called felony murder.

[Lee-Lee]

32. Felony Murder Rule

In essence any participant in a felony act is responsible for any deaths that occur.

If two people commit a robbery and one of them gets shot and killed, the other can be charged under the felony murder rule.

[hughee99]

145. Which two people? I only read about one. n/t

[clarice]

270. One person. nt

[onehandle]

7. Probably got his first erection in years.

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2014, 06:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Then got satisfaction.




What Domestic Terrorists Are Teaching Our Children

[clarice]

264. Was that in the story ? I must have missed it.nt

[uppityperson]

8. How is shooting someone in the back as they run away "self defense"?

They saw the gun and ran, so at that point, how was it self defense?

[Rex]

75. It's not...it is out and out murdering someone that you now have a tactical advantage over.

The people in this thread celebrating the death of a baby are beyond vile...I guess they escaped the gungeon.

[Rex]

120. So is that all you could come up with? This website thinks?

Seriously why don't you slink back into the gungeon.

[yeoman6987]

125. Oh my goodness.....so many conservatives have infiltrated this site.

It used to be so nice. No wonder conservatives are trying for personhood in the womb.

[Rex]

129. Wow I must have really pissed you off to try such a weak attack.

Yeah this site is great except for those that have no empathy for another living creature...seriously don't you have a gun to love on or something?

[yeoman6987]

133. I never said anything directly to you in my first post

I just said we should be careful that is all. You know yourself these wacky conservatives and especially Tea Baggers will use this type of thing against us. I swear I am not pissed, upset, really nothing.

[Rex]

136. Riiiiigggggghhtttt.

Seriously there is no need to be mad, she is dead and so is the fetus...no doubt that upsets you too.

[yeoman6987]

139. That post is PERFECT

We are on the same side you know.....

[Rex]

143. Riiiiigggggghhtttt.

Seriously, don't be mad...not really worth it.

[JI7]

13. since she was not able to get away he should have got the cops there

so they can get info from her on who the guy is.

[Hekate]

82. That might have been difficult due to the severe injury they inflicted on him. nt

[uppityperson]

146. "a severe shoulder and collarbone injury", yet he could still hold and fire a gun. Twice. nt

[jberryhill]

329. adrenaline

[salin]

14. Question - is this sort of thing happening with

increasing frequency (as it seems) - or are these stories just getting picked up more frequently?

[LisaLynne]

22. I wonder that, too.

And about accidental shootings. Are we just paying more attention or something? Or are they happening more often?

[Paladin]

18. Thanks for nothing, old man.

I doubt the incident's going to "leave a message" on what passes for your mind.

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. There's plenty of wrong to go around here.

Don't break in people's houses, try to steal their stuff, and assault them.

Don't shoot people in the back who are running away from you, even if they are criminals.

[nomorenomore08]

137. YES. Thank you for common sense.

[WI_DEM]

23. He could (and should) face charges...

from the article:

According to NBC4 legal analyst Royal Oakes, authorities will have a lot to consider as they contemplate pressing charges.

“On the one hand, a frail man in his eighties, he’s been attacked in his own home by intruders, he has a right to self defense,” Oakes explained. “On the other hand, he did shoot a person who was trying to get away, so he wasn’t in imminent danger himself, and the law says you can’t shoot somebody under those circumstances.”


Obviously the intruders started this, and did assault him--but once they started to escape and run away he should have backed off and waited for the police to arrive.

[KT2000]

25. wonder if he really was frail

my 81 year old neighbor is not frail and is a gun nut. He is always seething with anger because he watches FOX and other RW media. I wonder if this guy is the same.

[magical thyme]

44. his shoulder and collar bone were seriously injured when they threw him to the ground

I suspect pain and fear factored into his behavior.

[yeoman6987]

122. Perhaps probation for a year and loss of gun ownership

[Hekate]

27. This couple is not Trayvon Martin. The old man did not go "on patrol" seeking trouble.

There were talking heads opining about his being prosecuted for double manslaughter, if she was in fact pregnant. Charming.

Not so fast, people.

“I walked in on them,” Greer told KNBC. “And they jumped on me in the hallway.”
Greer said that he was tackled and thrown to the ground but managed to get his .22-caliber revolver and confronted them as they ransacked a safe containing cash.
>snip<
Greer, who suffered a severe shoulder and collarbone injury in the altercation...

He's 80 and frail. He was badly injured by them. He then shot back.

Where are the limits? If someone does that to you and goes across your doorstep to the outside do they then get to jeer at you "Ollie ollie oxen free free free"?

Really?

This couple bears no relationship to Trayvon Martin. None.

[Gravitycollapse]

29. "...do they then get to jeer at you 'Ollie ollie oxen free free free'" - Yes.

[Hekate]

36. People here should watch the interview at the link. He really is frail, bent and wobbly

He's also pissed off, as who would not be if they had been attacked and painfully injured. He should lawyer up and stop talking to anyone, because public opinion you know.

This leaves a pretty bitter taste in my mouth -- 80 year olds get to be targets and victims.

So far we know nothing about the couple involved except that that they targeted and victimized an 80 year old man. He fought back after they injured him in his own home.

[magical thyme]

52. Agreed.

I was targeted by my first criminal right about when I turned 50. I took it as a one off.

Now I am 60 and I understand this is the rest of my life. "Decent" people believe they have a right to touch me at work, invade my privacy, abuse my personal information, stalk me, and more.

Criminals view me as "low hanging fruit." I've had my property trashed repeatedly, trespassed, cased, vegetables stolen from garden, 2 attempts made on my dog's lives in their own yard, 1 attempt made on my horses' lives in their own pasture, my identity stolen, been verbally abused and screamed at by 20-somethings who are now my "boss" and more.

I'm getting a very different view than I ever expected of my coming "golden" years. Instead of building community with my neighbors, I've posted my property and have game cameras. I expect I will also need to be armed to defend myself.

[Hekate]

63. Some, no many, of the opinions in this thread...

...appall and disgust me. I'm now officially in my late 60s, and the idea of two assholes invading my home and breaking some of my bones does not appeal.

Our quiet middle class neighborhood was targeted last year by a group that hit nearly two dozen houses before they were caught. Then someone started in on the mailboxes and UPS packages that had always been left on the front porches. I got a new mailbox, one that locks. I've started wasting electricity by leaving the tv on when I leave the house, plus the light in the hall and the study that can be seen from the street. Other than that, what am I supposed to do?

When my next door neighbor told me he might put a sign in his front yard indicating that he's armed, this gun control advocate (me) said, "John, there's a time and a place for everything."

I'm finding it hard to work up any sympathy for this woman and her fetus (if there really was one and she wasn't lying for sympathy). No, theft is not supposed to be subject to capital punishment. But she and her boyfriend violently attacked a very old man in his own home, and he was supposed to -- do what, exactly? Brew them a pot of tea?

[magical thyme]

68. apparently he was supposed to let them get away, so they could return another time

and beat him to a pulp before he got to his gun.

[kcr]

78. Well, no need for courts then

because you never know when a criminal might come back. Screw justice.

[Rex]

85. Yep. It would be the Wild West around here if the gungoneers had their way.

Their worship of the gun and hatred for life is sad.

[Rex]

83. Not shoot her in the back and kill her and her baby when they fled?

It is amazing to watch people here defend the gun in all this and not the baby...but sadly I expect as much.

[Hekate]

86. I ask again: As a thief and abuser of the elderly, might she also not be a liar?

Have we had any information in the "news" about whether or not she was in fact pregnant?

So far there has been a delightful tangent here about "the baby" and "the kid" as though she were carrying it swaddled in her arms and not just claiming pregnancy for sympathy.

I'm pretty sure that the EMTs and ER docs would have gone out of their way to save a viable fetus if they could tell she was actually pregnant.

So far, nothing but outrage here over her having said she was pregnant and the injured and wrathful old man having said she said it.

[kcr]

97. Except he's the one who said it.

It's highly unlikely someone would make up a lie that only serves to show they're depraved.

[COLGATE4]

124. The fact that she was ostensibly pregnant makes his conduct

even more reprehensible but the fact is that the penalty for an attempted burglary is not death. She was past the point of being any danger to him. He summarily executed her and quite possibly her fetus as well.

[TorchTheWitch]

198. why not the girl???

Good God, talk about treating women as mere incubators! Why is anyone supposed to care about her possible pregnancy but not HER??? We're only supposed to care about HER life because of the possibility that she may have been carrying a potential OTHER life? If she wasn't pregnant should we then not give a shit that she was murdered? Silly me for considering this mere teenage incubator as only having a life worth anything to even cross anyone's mind if she may have been currently incubating when SHE was killed.

Other than that I get your point. Yes, she was a terrible person to rob someone's home and physically hurt him when caught. But this was no legitimate self-defense, and I'm horrified that anyone here defends this man's actions in some of these posts even by the very same people that despise stand your ground laws and are against the death penalty no matter how horrible someone's crime.

Self-defense is only ever justified when one is in immediate danger of great boidly harm or death. He outright admitted he killed her with his gun because she wasn't able to run away fast enough, and HE alleges that she even begged for her life and that of her alleged unborn child. He shot her out of vengence alone, yet some people here that scream their lungs loose over SYG laws and the death penalty are trying to make this man's murder of a teenage girl who may or may not have been pregnant justifyable when it is anything but... probably one of the most clear cases of non-self-defense ever.

Sickening. Particularly the sickening comments about what was he supposed to do "make them tea?" I could puke. Here's what he should have done: NOT FUCKNG KILLED HER when she was no longer any danger to him and even begged for her life. He should have put down the gun and picked up the phone to the police. EVEN IF the police were unable to ever identify her, he STILL had no legitimate and certainly no legal reason to kill her.

[Hekate]

310. Can't say this enough: UPDATE. SHE LIED, JUST AS I SUSPECTED. Carry on. nt

[kcr]

71. He;s a frail, bent and wobbly murderer n/t

[uppityperson]

150. "80 year olds get to be targets and victims"? Not at all. They don't get to shoot people in the back

as they run away.

[kcr]

69. It doesn't matter. You can't decide to murder people as punishment

I'm glad he's being charged with double manslaughter. He deserves first degree murder. And I'm glad that this didn't happen in a fucked up state like Texas where he wouldn't be.

[Hekate]

74. Well, bully for you. When you get to be that age and have brittle bones, you just try it okay?

I'm sure that with saint-like demeanor you will simply open your doors to whatever thugs need to break into your safe and let them help themselves to your meager possessions. The old murderer's neighborhood looks a bit shabby, so I kind of doubt there were gold and jewels in that safe, but for sure the contents were valuable to him.

But you will know how to do it better I am sure.

[kcr]

76. I don't plan on becoming a murderer when I get old

No matter what physical condition I'm in. Most old people I know aren't murderers.

[Hekate]

79. Most old people you know probably have not had the experience this old man just had, either. nt

[kcr]

81. Actually not true

None of the old people I know who were victims of crime murdered anyone. Most don't.

[NYC_SKP]

299. If any of the criminal supporters in this thread had ever gone through such a thing...

.

...they'd feel differently.

Crazy, or maybe not so crazy things go through one's mind like, "what if they come back?" and "maybe they aren't alone"...

And you want to move three states away and going back home is NEVER THE SAME.

I hate reading these replies that vilify the victim, but am encouraged by the handful of people who "get it".

Thanks.

[Hekate]

303. Contrariwise

Thank YOU.

I've been feeling like I'm losing my little mind, the current against which I'm swimming has been so rough. It's nice to have some company.

[Rex]

87. You mean you won't shoot a pregant lady in the back and kill the baby?

That is obviously what some here are saying...they would take great glee in killing her.

[kcr]

92. It's depraved.

I shouldn't have even come into this thread because it's sickening. I have to remind myself that most people aren't like this or I'd lose my faith in humanity.

[Rex]

96. Sadly this is what the gun group is like and they seem to have escaped the gungeon.

Zero sympathy for human life...protect the gun at all costs etc..

[Hekate]

308. EXCEPT IT NOW TURNS OUT THE POOR THING LIED ABOUT BEING PREGNANT

[Ikonoklast]

323. SO SHE DESERVED TO DIE.

[Hekate]

326. Never said that, did I? Just pointed out there was not a shred of evidence presented yesterday....

...to back up her statement. Old man with broken bones quoted her, not claiming his own eyes had seen a pregnancy. Still enraged at the hurt done to him, says he's not sorry at all.

Flame festival ensued here, minus all critical faculties, tremendous outrage over the darling little baby. The baby, the kid, even in one case an 8 month fetus, so obvious was her condition. The baby. Handwringing galore over the murder of The Baby.

Not so much handwringing over the unfortunate demise of the incubator, who unfortunately was a participant in a home invasion, except as the carrier of The Baby. Monster old man. Double Murderer. Untold outrage at DU.

Funny thing though, nobody at the scene at the time seemed to notice that the woman was pregnant, and you would think they would have. I checked -- though apparently nobody else did.

And today, what a shock, turns out she lied. So all of the outrage and handwringing over the Murder of the Baby, what has it come to and how has it elevated the tone of DU?

Is the old man with the broken bones still a Monster? She's still dead. She still abused him, along with her boyfriend, who ran like a bunny rabbit and left her behind to die. Not a lot of heroes in this saga, are there?

My thoughts on this episode: I'm glad the old man fought back. I'm sorry she's dead. But she was in a pretty dangerous occupation, even so.

[kcr]

93. And that's too bad.

Because that's what he should get. He's a depraved killer who intentionally murdered someone and has no remorse. He shoudln't see another day out of jail.

[kcr]

115. Not when they brag about it afterwards with no remorse

Sorry. I think he's a cold blooded sociopath to begin with. He was before he was a victim of a crime and his actions and words show it.

[nomorenomore08]

144. I doubt they could get him on first-degree, but it should be manslaughter anyway.

If he'd shot the woman while she was in his home attacking him, then I would say it was justified. But in 49 states it's completely illegal to shoot a fleeing burglar in the back.

[COLGATE4]

130. I don't think so. Intent can be inferred from his actions.

And premeditation only needs a second or less to occur. If he actually executed her with a second (or third) shot, I don't see a problem in charging him with Murder I.

[ProfessorGAC]

164. Completely Untrue

The circumstances negate your "only needs a second" theory. There could be no premeditation inplied or inferred had they not been committing this crime.

To be ABUDANTLY clear: I don't defend this guy. I don't defend the burglars either. These are a bunch of people who all did wrong.

But, premediation is clearly precluded by the very fact that THEY surprised HIM by breaking and entering his home.

Had he known they were there, went and got his gun, snuck around the house and come out blazing, then you may have a point. This situation is quite the opposite.

[COLGATE4]

199. An interesting theory. Where did you get your Law degree?

[COLGATE4]

260. Everyone's a lawyer on DU. Except the actual attorneys. nt

[moriah]

245. Yes, otherwise is not self-defense, but murder.

See, the difference is -- he didn't have to shoot them to protect himself once they started running away. They'd stopped their crime. His life was no longer in danger before he shot.

It's not quite as cold-blooded as the man who ambushed those kids in his basement, but pretty damn close.

[Aerows]

28. Two wrongs

breaking into someone's home and stealing from them, then shooting the thief in the back, don't make a right.

Good grief, stop the violence.

[nomorenomore08]

148. Another common sense post.

[clarice]

259. Stop the stealing. nt

[Marrah_G]

33. I think if the person is running away and you are no longer fearing for your life....its murder.

[truebluegreen]

48. Bingo.

[FiveGoodMen]

103. Absolutely

Ab-so-f*ing-lutely!

[Max power]

121. I agree

If she is fleeing then it's murder

If she wasn't running, and was facing him, then make her a corpse

There is a fine line there , and I think he crossed it

[NYC_SKP]

337. I would still be fearing for my life, had I been beaten like that. Thus, it's self defense.

You don't know that they aren't coming back, you are the victim, you get some latitude.

Perhaps these criminals shouldn't have made such bad choices as to have broken in and beaten him up.

I have NO sympathy for either of the old-man-beating burglars.

Fuck them.

As for their defenders, they are making communities LESS SAFE for everyone else.

I've never read such backward thinking on this board.

[Marrah_G]

339. Not when they are running away

They deserved prison time, not a death sentence.

[cbdo2007]

39. lol at DU for defending burglars who assaulted an 80 year old

We should all be ashamed, but we're not and I'm going to get attacked for this. So be it.

[WI_DEM]

43. Nobody is defending them for what they did...

but when somebody is fleeing as they did--once they saw the gun--he should have allowed the police to handle it. That isn't just my opinion or other people's opinion but the law.

[Hekate]

88. Basically they're just condemning the old man to grievous bodily harm and general victimhood

Apparently he is not allowed to fight back or have any feelings on the subject.

[kcr]

98. No.

I have no problem with anyone defending themselves.

[uppityperson]

158. Most of us see a difference between defending yourself and shooting someone in the back while they

are running away and no longer a threat.

[cbdo2007]

216. "running away and no longer a threat" is an odd presumption to make during a violent confrontation

with people who just broke into your house, outnumber you, are younger and stronger than you, found your safe, physically assaulted you just a few seconds earlier, and are now still within 50 feet of you, most likely threatening to come back and finish the job and do him more bodily harm or threatening to harm his family.

Lol at DU for thinking people who attacked a random 80 year old and tried to rob him are "not a threat". They are the only threat in this situation.

[uppityperson]

246. Lol at thinking someone shooting a person running away in the back isn't a "threat".

[freshwest]

196. What would the response be if they'd beaten the old man not to injury, but to death?

And then bragged about the money they got from the safe? Or if they'd taken the gun from him in the struggle and killed him with it would he blamed for using the gun to stop them as he didn't have the strength to resist without it?

There's no way of telling since he would not be alive to tell his tale, and they wouldn't go to the media to tell of their successful heist or having killed him.

I'm wondering if he didn't believe the people who'd just attacked him were actually fleeing. I might have trouble believing anything that a person after they'd just beaten me down, that they were not prepared to do it to me again.

But I would not have shot them in the back, unless I'd lost my mind.

I think these stories are being reported more than ever, to actually cause fear in all kinds of people. Some will seize on this as their reason to use a gun, because they feel vulnerable at home, or in the case of robbers, they will become armed robbers. That has been a major part of home invasions, too.

I think the CA law will deal with him in a fair manner, no matter what, but some will never be satisfied from either side of the debate.

The issue you bring here is his injury. And that injury was caused for no good reason and one can survive, although he did NOT deserve to be injured, PERIOD. It does not excuse what they did or were planning to do next and we won't get the truth now.

The argument the old man shot them just for taking his stuff, is neglecting that the robbers were willing to injure or even kill him for the same stuff in question.

The real issue is that death is final and the woman robber will never get to change or make restitution. Now that he is under arrest, he will be have to pay the price for his decision.

And I agree, no one seems to really look at the old man as a human being. It is why older people will sometimes isolate themselves as the consensus appears to be that they've served their purpose and they might have died or injured themselves otherwise.

I love people of all ages, and am old or getting there myself. But I see a some isolation from fear by some elders. This was a horrible event.

[uppityperson]

156. Please give a link to 1 DUer who is defending the burglars. Let's see 1. I'll check back in a bit,

see what you found.

[lapislzi]

208. There is no defense for that.

Nor is there a defense for taking the law into your own hands and killing someone who is running away. We have laws for that kind of thing--both things.

If no firearm had been present, a life would not have been taken.

[clarice]

266. Not from me you won't. nt

[MH1]

268. LOL (ok not really, not at all) at DU for defending cowardly murder.

You don't shoot someone in the back as they are running away.

It's against the law. For a reason.

This guy may get off on compassionate grounds because he's old and was assaulted, but the police already said that he broke the law. It was no longer self-defense once the person was fleeing.

[Politicalboi]

42. I usually don't have sympathy for thieves

But this woman was already injured and down. That asshole shouldn't have shot her a second time. And even though if you cause a death in the process of committing a crime, this asshole could have stopped and let her live. Her boyfriend should NOT be charged with murder, the shooter should. Ca is NOT Texass.

[Lee-Lee]

45. Felony Murder Rule isn't a Texas thing

Yes, they both should charged.

[Politicalboi]

55. I hope the old man gets locked up for life

The boyfriend should serve a lesser sentence.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. "I hope the old man gets locked up for life"

At his age, what is that? Next Thursday?

[Lee-Lee]

61. Odds are he dies before trial

And I don't know what CA Felony Murder penalties are like, but the old man would likely face manslaughter.

Manslaughter with mitigating factors of age and previous assault, he likely wouldn't serve a day but end up on probation if he lives long enough.

Felony murder for the boyfriend, plus assault, burglary and whatever else- probably see some time.

[boomer55]

47. pretty simple... dont do the crime you wont suffer the consequences

castle doctrine. intruder invades my home its Me vs intruder. I will always choose me. They made the choice to do the crime and it sucks to be them.

[truebluegreen]

49. Running away in an alley ain't in anybody's "castle."

[Ecumenist]

104. Amen, TrueBlueGreen. If they were in the alley and running away, there's no reason

to shoot them "IN THE BACK!! ", especially the PREGNANT woman.... I understand that he was injured but chasing them down and gunning down the woman here in {{CALIFORNIA}} will NOT end well for grandpa. I wonder if he thought that he could act out with his firearm because he'd seen zimmy the giggling murderer and God knows how many others shoot folks and get away with it? IT WILL NOT END WELL.....TRUST me. This AIN'T florida...

[d_b]

50. fuck everyone involved in this story

except for the dead baby.

[Inkfreak]

90. I think that kinda sums it up well enough. (nt)

[joe_sixpack]

51. Very ambiguous feelings about this

I cannot condone what this man did, or said afterwords. The crime against him would have caused anyone to have their adrenalin pumping, and survival mode operating at high speed. All I can say is that he did not go looking to cause harm to anyone and they certainly did. There are no winners in this story, only head shaking sadness that something like this happened.

[randys1]

53. Good for him, shooting a pregnant woman running away from him!

I think we should consider death penalty anytime a poor person or a drug addict steals anything at all.

Can I get a Yahoo from you all on that one!

Or a "Hallelujah"

You see, there is only ONE reason ANYONE steals, it is because they have NO character and are lazy.

It is NEVER because they are addicted to drugs and cant get rehab treatment...

It is NEVER because they are poor, were born poor, have tried everything they can to make it in life working for next to nothing but cant...

Not ever...It is ALWAYS, 100% of the time, because you have no character.





By the way, asshole, what are you gonna say when it is you stealing from the rich because your pension ran out or they decided to privatize your social security and then OOPS we stole it all, you have nothing now.

Sure, you wont steal, you will starve first.

And someone addicted to drugs MUST get a fix, that is a physiological reality, you can resolve that, ASSHOLE by being willing to socialize medicine so we can have plenty of rehabs...

ASSHOLE



dear fucking god i hope everyone realizes this is sarcasm

[nomorenomore08]

154. May I just say that I love 98% of your posts?

[randys1]

157. you MAY

and I will get to work on that other 2%

[mokawanis]

56. They were no longer a threat and he shot her anyway

lock the guy up. Let him sit in prison and brag all he wants.

[Warpy]

57. Let's see, he gunned down a home invader's pregnant girlfriend while she was running away

which puts it at Murder 2 in a sane society. I also don't think the partner who got away is going to be too thrilled with his smugness all over the TV while he's grieving the loss of his girlfriend and possibly the kid she was carrying. I doubt this is over. The local popo would be wise to arrest him and jail him for his own protection.

Bottom line, his life was NOT in danger, they were already off his property, and he shot one of them in the back and killed her for a non DP offense.

I hope they throw the book at him. If they don't, the partner will likely be back. Soon.

[NM_Birder]

95. Lets hope the partner will likley "be back"

Fewer burglars would be shot, if the people they assault would just calm down and realize their lives are not in danger.

[Warpy]

166. I would rather have that old guy off the street

and safely in jug. Well, at least until his injuries heal.

[NM_Birder]

210. Totally.......

What kind of society do we live in when you can't even break into an elderly dick head's home, beat the shit out of them, rob them and THEN have to worry about being shot ?

What's this world coming to huh ?

[Warpy]

248. Yes, vigilantes are so much fairer than police

You really don't want to get this.

Gunz n vengeance are more important.

[NM_Birder]

283. I keep agreeing with you.

Criminals need to have the right to break into homes, beat the shit out of elderly, or any other person for that matter, and rob the place without having the added stress of being shot.

It takes enough guts as it is to be a drug addict, assault an elderly twat, rob his house all while trying to keep the family together with your pregnant partner.

If he didn't have a gun she would be alive right ?

Never mind if they didn't break in, beat the shit of him, rob him ....... nobody would be hurt in any way.

[Hekate]

100. He was seriously injured in his own home before he ever got to his gun.

His life actually was in danger from this duo. The woman, pregnant or not, was not a bystander but a participant.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

119. "If they don't, the partner will likely be back. Soon."

Awesome. You've just given justification as to why gun owners would blow away someone like that.

[Warpy]

165. That wasn't justification. It was prediction. Learn the difference.

One murder usually does beget another. And another.

That's why we have police and laws against vigilante "justice."

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

168. Regardless, the partner is a fucking coward

I hope he is caught and put away for a long time, and the old man dies before he gets out. Seeing as he is obviously cool with assaulting an old man for his stuff and dragging along his pregnant gal pal whilst he does it, I'm sure he'd have no qualms returning to kill the old man for "destroying his property". Maybe next time he can show up to a nursing home or hospital while the guy is strapped down too. Let's make it fair, right?

[hughee99]

153. I don't think she's a "home invader's pregnant girlfriend", I think she's a "home invader".

I agree with most of what you wrote, but the terminology makes it sound like the girlfriend wasn't actively involved in the crime, she just happened to be dating the wrong guy.

[Warpy]

167. Probably a little of both

She was no angel to anybody but the punk who got away.

[gwheezie]

58. While I don't think he should have shot her while she was running away

I kinda think if he was jumped by them, it is rational to think he could have been killed. He didn't start it, he didn't plan on shooting this girl if she hadn't broken into his home, he may not have thought about shooting her if he hadn't been injured and they just ran off when they realized he was in the home rather than beating him up. I feel sorry for the dead girl, she was running for her life, the tables got turned as earlier the old guy was fighting for his life, neither party as far as I can tell wanted to wind up in a life or death situation.
Personally, I would not shoot someone over defending my stuff but I'm not sure what I would do if I was surprised and beat up in my home by intruders and I managed to get hold of my shotgun, I don't know how clear my thinking would be but I hope I would not kill someone running away. If I did kill someone, I would regret it but I don't know what I would blurt out of my mouth either.
I have been held at gunpoint and beaten, I was trying to figure out how to kill the guy,I would have if I could have gotten hold of a gun, I was not thinking that I would just wound the guy, I was thinking at the time that I would have to kill him. I was lucky that I was able to get away and when he was shooting at me, he missed.

[PowerToThePeople]

205. your last paragraph

Is exactly why we need to ban all guns.

[gwheezie]

241. I wish my ex husband had not had a gun

and it wasn't over when I escaped, I called the police once I got away and by the time they got there he had planned to kill anyone who entered the house. I was standing across the street when the police arrived and he was jovial and smiling at the door and told them to come in and look around. It was the female officer who demanded he step out onto the lawn, when they went in he had several loaded weapons. Later during the court hearing he admitted his plan was to shoot the cops if they entered the house. What baffles me is I had a restraining order, I had been beat up and shot at, he had loaded guns in the house and said he would shoot the cops and not only didn't he go to jail but he kept his guns. I had to leave that state, my alternative was to kill him myself if I stayed there.

[Ken Burch]

60. Why wasn't it enough for the old bastard to shoot her in the leg?

She was leaving...it was over...yes, they shouldn't have robbed him but this was going to far.

[Lurks Often]

177. This isn't TV

First note, I am not trying to justify him shooting her in the back.

The shooting people in the hand or the leg is made up Hollywood nonsense. A hand or leg is a very small target, that is often moving around a lot, not an easy shot under the best of circumstances.

In the circumstances of this case, you had an 80 year old man assaulted, knocked down and severly injured, with lots of adrenaline running through his system. The chances of him being able to intentionally shoot her in the arm or leg approach zero. So if he tries to shot her in the leg or arm, where does that bullet or bullets go?

Shooting to wound is extremely questionable legally, in essence shooting to wound is usually treated as proof you were not actually in fear of grave bodily injury or your life, thereby removing your justifcation for shooting the person in the first place.

[Maedhros]

62. Seems like some gun owners are just itching to use their toy.

Such people shouldn't have guns.

[Hekate]

91. Grievous bodily injury in his own home, first. This is not Trayvon Martin.

[PeteSelman]

72. Hard to say he wasn't justified.

What a coward the robber dude is too. Leaving your pregnant girl behind like that. It's a shame but you can't expect people to lay down for that shit.

[Rex]

89. Can you expect them to show mercy?

Yeah I guess not in America 2014.

[XRubicon]

171. Pretty tough to judge him for shooting a fleeing pregnant woman in the back

Do I have that right?

[Rex]

94. Congrats! You almost made it through life without killing a baby!

I see the gungeoneers are falling all over themselves with glee over the dead mom and baby. And of course protecting the gun at all costs...like their narrative demands.

[Hekate]

108. Glee? You think all of us are gungeoneers just because an injured old man pursued his assailants...

...and we seem to understand that he might have a point?

I guess there's nothing left for me to do but tear up my Brady Campaign credentials and ask for my money back.

[Rex]

113. Seriously I don't care...you lack the ability to show empathy for another human.

He murdered her while she fled...I guess that is SOP in your book.

[Hekate]

163. Well goddamn Rex, I guess after all these years and posts I'm just pixels on a screen

[mythology]

194. They might argue that you lack empathy for the guy who had just been assaulted

In my opinion, none of these people displayed good judgement. But only one of them had just been assaulted.

I personally find it hard to muster too much sympathy for any of these people. Two of them knowingly committed crimes and the other killed somebody who in theory wasn't a threat to him. All of these people made mistakes that led to this, which to me means that none of the are innocent.

I also find it implausible that she was claiming that she should be shielded because she was pregnant. If she was that concerned about the health of her fetus, perhaps she should have taken a less risky job that robber. She put her baby at risk, it just happened that the odds didn't come up in her favor.

The old man doesn't escape responsibility because at the point in which he fired, he wasn't in seemingly imminent danger and in my experience people who brag about violence are either far too prone to it, or have no idea of the consequences. Given that he just killed somebody, I'm guessing he's no stranger to committing violent acts himself.

And the fellow robber, well he took his pregnant partner to commit a crime and then left her to die. Not exactly Prince Charming.

[lapislzi]

213. Pursuit's one thing. Killing a person is quite another.

Pursuing home invaders at the age of 80 when you are frail and injured is probably not the wisest thing to do (whether armed or unarmed), but I can completely understand the impulse to do so. The guy was frightened, in pain, and enraged. I get it. However, had no firearm been present, it is unlikely anyone would have been killed.

That's the rub here. It's not that the woman may have been pregnant (irrelevant) or that those were criminals (they are that) with or without additional mitigating or aggravating factors. We are a nation of laws. A citizen does not have the right to dispense death or other extrajudicial punishments. Why is this so hard to understand?

Having a handy death-dispenser in your home makes these scenarios all too likely. No one should be killed for burglary. No one should be killed for assaulting another person (although I would support a hefty prison term for assaulting an elderly person). No one should be killed for being an asshole (debatable, I know, but...)

I can imagine very few scenarios in which I would be prepared to kill another person. Mostly "kill-or-be-killed" situations, which this clearly was not. Not with the criminals running away.

[hfojvt]

227. "we are a nation of laws"

Not in my book. We are a nation of citizens. The laws exist to SERVE the citizens and NOT to CONTROL them.

And, of course, with laws like castle doctrine and stand your ground, the citizens DO have a right to defend themselves, with lethal force, if somebody attacks them.

[lapislzi]

238. I completely disagree

Whether you like it or not, we do have laws. And we should be using them to serve the people, not taking them into our own hands to dispense the death penalty for burglary/assault.

Not sure whether you are in favor of or against "stand your ground" type laws. For the record, I'm against them. I'm also against firearms being in the hands of private citizens, particularly idiots. I don't know of many human interactions improved by the presence or use of a firearm. YMMV.

Peace.

[NutmegYankee]

172. What baby? I read there was only a man and a woman.

Remember, fetal homicide bills are designed to remove the right to choice and to turn the mother into an incubator. These types of laws are used against mothers who are addicted to drugs or refuse medical procedures. No one here should EVER support such laws.

There was no baby.

[Rex]

174. Sorry, he shot and killed a pregnant women in cold blood.

That sound better? My point was he almost made it through his life without killing a potential baby! Yeah...that makes it so much better!

[NutmegYankee]

184. Obviously you've never served as an escort for woman to a clinic.

Once you've stood as the only thing between a woman and the rabid scum sucking shit eating foaming at the mouth terrorists who oppose the right to choose, you realize how the language really matters. I can't let those fuckers win.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

175. Do you believe a man should be charged if he poisons his wife/gf to force a miscarriage? n/m

[NutmegYankee]

178. Only with the injury to the mother.

This is one of those basic things in the fight to preserve the right to choice. Hell, even the Bible made a distinction between a fetus and the mother.

22"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Premature birth was death of the child back then.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

180. I see the killing of a fetus as a removal of a woman's choice, if she indeed wanted that child

I understand the slippery slope, but I would think there would be a lot of women out there who would feel their eight month old fetus being murdered against their will as a major violation of them.

[NutmegYankee]

181. At the end of the day you can only murder a person.

And a fetus isn't one. It may be a factor enhancing a sentence severity, but fetal personhood is a death sentence for women in the long run.

[BklnDem75]

279. In California, killing a fetus is also murder

California Penal Code 187

187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a
fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act
that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:
(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2
(commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division
106 of the Health and Safety Code.
(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon'
s certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a
case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be
death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth,
although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or
more likely than not.
(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the
mother of the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the
prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

[NutmegYankee]

300. And all that means is the anti-choicers won there...

[BklnDem75]

304. How so?

(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act
that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:

(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2
(commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division
106 of the Health and Safety Code.

(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon'
s certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a
case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be
death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth,
although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or
more likely than not.

(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the
mother of the fetus.

Looks pretty pro-choice to me.

[NutmegYankee]

305. It still sets into law the concept of fetal personhood.

That's all it takes...

How long till someone challenges their conviction of a crime when the mother can do it penalty free? That's the goal for these people. Set up court cases so an increasingly conservative and catholic Supreme court can decide in their favor.

[BklnDem75]

316. That threat will always exist as long as people keep electing anti-choice politicians

Do you think a threat don't exist by making the unborn fair game to kill?

[NutmegYankee]

331. Stop and think about your second sentence again.

[BklnDem75]

332. I did. I'm talking about the more immediate threat than legislative

I'm talking about guys who don't want to be dads taking things into their own hands. Are you looking at both sides to pro-choice or just the abortion side?

[NutmegYankee]

334. I'm taking the long view.

Just like I did back in post 181. If a father hurts the pregnant woman or causes her to miscarry, he would be charged with the same crime if he had beaten or poisoned her and she survived but wasn't pregnant.

[BklnDem75]

338. Taking the long view for who?

Do you think an assault charge will protect women who used their choice to have a baby?

[NutmegYankee]

341. Look go bug someone else with the pro-life bullshit.

I'm not interested in that noise.

[BklnDem75]

342. So you think pro-choice only means pro-abortion?

Interesting...

[NutmegYankee]

344. Speaking of anti-choice language...

I really do get tired of this bullshit. Questions like that are directly part of the anti-choice language arsenal. I'd know, I served as a clinic escort and learned much about the terrorists who oppose the right to choose.

Murder is the crime of deliberately killing a person. Fetal personhood laws are designed to chip away at the concept that a fetus isn't a person, a necessary action to win a case to overturn Roe v. Wade. If a man causes a woman to lose her child, he has harmed the woman. Period. And he should be charged with harming the woman. Causing the loss of the child should be an aggravating circumstance that increases the penalty because of the emotional toll on the woman, but the crime is still against the woman.

If he is charged with the murder of a fetus but the woman can choose to end the pregnancy without penalty, it's only a matter of time before that is challenged in the courts as "unequal protection" under the law. The SCOTUS has narrowly downed 5-4 the last few challenges to Roe v. Wade and the anti-choice side is showing no signs of backing down. It doesn't matter that the statute protects the right to choose - the fetal personhood is the proverbial camel's nose under the tent.

[BklnDem75]

346. People v. Davis (1994)

http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/people-v-davis-31602

Scott Peterson
http://online.ceb.com/calcases/CA4/156CA4t676.htm

That ship has sailed twice already. No change in Roe v. Wade yet. The only way that law will change is if we allow more wingers in office. Just like the Voting Rights Act, case law will have zero to do with it.

[NutmegYankee]

354. Yet.

Remember this discussion in twenty years.

[deathrind]

99. This guy...

followed these people into an ally and shot a pregnant woman in the back.

"“She says, ‘Don’t shoot me, I’m pregnant! I’m going to have a baby!’ And I shot her anyway,” Greer said."

That is murder.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

101. The news story is heavily biased in favor of the criminals, and painting a scared old man as evil

It completely buries the fact these two assaulted this old man in his home, and were most likely on their way to killing him had he not pulled a gun.

I'm going to chalk it up that the article is inflammatory as the reason why so many DUers in this thread clearly do not give a shit about this man who was violently attacked in his home.

[Hekate]

102. I'm a gun control advocate but the flamefest here against an injured old man is vomit-inducing

His life was in danger. His injuries to his shoulder and arm were described as severe. There were two participants in the burglary and injuries; the woman was not an innocent bystander with a baby in her arms.

This is DU?!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

106. I too am pro-gun control and think the old man was dead had they taken his gun in the struggle

Which is why I think owning a gun is not always the safest measure.

But I'm also a man with two elderly parents that live by themselves, one of whom once he is put to bed for the night would be helpless against two pieces of shit like these intruders. This story hit home for me, and fuck anyone who's got a problem with that.

[Rex]

107. You can chalk it up to whatever you want to, but understand this

he murdered her and admitted to it. I think had he showed mercy, you would see most of the replies in defense of the old man. Thankfully only a handful of people are blind to that fact in this thread.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

110. The story would not even have been written had he showed mercy n/m

[Rex]

111. Oh please.

Of course it would, with emphasis on him sparing her life.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

114. You really think that, huh?

The folks at rawstory would really revel in a "feel good story" like that I bet.

[Rex]

116. Duh...mercy sells just like murdering someone in cold blood.

I guess your world has no empathy or compassion in it, so it is impossible for you to understand.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

127. I posted my reasons why this story hits home for me in #106 and my empathy level is maxed out

I know you don't give a shit. After all, you showed zero empathy for an 80 year old man being pummeled. My guess is because his simply owning something you don't morally agree with is enough for you to merit a beating.

[Rex]

132. I own 4 firearms...you guys are sad.

All you have is that tiny little weapon to cling to for dear life. I felt very sorry for the old man, until he got all happy about murdering someone...hard to understand for you, I know that.

[onehandle]

109. But gun nuts say that just having the gun is the real power.

They were fleeing.

He shot a girl in the back.





What Domestic Terrorists Are Teaching Our Children

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

112. Had they taken the gun off him, they would have blown his head off

And this thread and story....would not exist. Just another "local crime", shit happens.

This, of course, has some red meat to it.

[onehandle]

118. So, we should all kill people on speculation?

‘Don’t shoot me, I’m pregnant! I’m going to have a baby!’ And I shot her anyway,'

'Shit Happens'





What Domestic Terrorists Are Teaching Our Children

[Rex]

123. You have to come to this site and prepare to talk to supposed progressives

that seem to show no remorse or empathy for another living creature. I know strange, but we have a whole group of them in the gun group.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

131. You mean like you?

Who has absolutely refused to acknowledge that the two individuals involved were not selling encyclopedias, but beating an old man in his home?

[Rex]

135. Yeah he lost all the sympathy when he decided to kill a pregant mother.

NOT that I would expect you or your ilk to understand any of that...to you all it is GUN GUN GUN.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

138. What are you babbling about?

Nevermind....you're some sort of self-loathing gun nut instead of a regular one. Have fun arguing with yourself.

[Rex]

141. Thank you for proving my point, even though you have no clue that you just did.

Yeah slink away....

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. You're a guy having one of his "I'm better than the average gungeoneer" chest beating sessions

Seeing as I don't go to that shit hole, I really don't care about your crisis of conscience and lecturing the rest of us.

[Rex]

151. Rest of us? I am just talking to about a handful of gun lovers.

The REST (99%) of the replies in here think like I do...but don't let that worry you, no doubt you will be able to defend another murder somewhere else and soon.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

134. Yeah, it's pure speculation they were beating hiim too

Quite frankly, the raw story author should have left that part out. It's just "muddies the waters", right?

[onehandle]

182. You're ignoring the sequence.

They were fleeing, she begged him, he murdered her.

Done with you...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

183. Aw, you mean it?

I'm crushed.

I have elderly parents who I worry about. That is why I can't phony up my sympathy for the dead woman who minutes before thought beating up an old man was an acceptable show of humanity. I know you don't care. This story hits fucking HOME to me.

[kcr]

193. And no one else has elderly parents they care about? n/t

[Rex]

221. Don't you get it!? It is ALL about him!

Finally after wasting so much time here, the truth comes out...it was all about HIM!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

291. I said why the story hit home to me in my first reply #106

You're the one who has been on a tear accusing me of supporting murder and talking about how you're a responsible gun nut.

[geomon666]

140. Why didn't they kill him when they knocked him down?

Seems to me like they had the opportunity right then and there.

[lapislzi]

215. And you know this...how?

I will concede this: I know from four very stressful years of owning a firearm in a semi-lawless area, that a primary responsibility of firearm ownership, and directly connected to safety (number-one priority) is securing said firearm. You have to know where it is at all times. If you fail in securing your firearm, it will be used against you, probably to kill you or at the very least, in the commission of a crime. It's almost a certainty. That means: don't take alcohol when you're armed. Have situational awareness at all times. Don't pull it unless you mean it.

It was a totally frazzling experience, and one I hope never to repeat. The relief I felt the day I handed it over to the police was second only to the relief I felt when my ex husband sold The Boat.

[uppityperson]

160. He pulled a gun and they ran away. Why did he then have to shoot her in the back, again?

[snooper2]

219. Third time they robbed him too, he says he keeps 15-20K cash in his safe and moved the key

So this time they had to break the door off-

But people don't take the time to watch the whole interview or the full article-

Just the "raw story" bullshit plagiarism of a couple paragraphs they stole----

[NYC_SKP]

298. It's amazing, isn't it? Shitty journalism and really disturbing support for the criminals.

Someone wrote upthread that homeowners should just calm down, Post 95:

Fewer burglars would be shot, if the people they assault would just calm down and realize their lives are not in danger.

Amazing.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

350. I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm

Read #210

[Atman]

149. When you're 80 you don't give a rat's ass.

You could wake up tomorrow dead. You could keel over into your Cream of Wheat. You might live until Thursday.

My Grandmother was in her eighties when her doctor told her she had to quit the Camel non-filters immediately or she'd kill herself. So she switched to Pall Mall filters, and smoked until her butts were lighting house fires in the trash cans.

At eighty, who gives a fuck? I'll still be a nice guy, but you'd better STAY OFF MY LAWN!

[Rex]

155. Your hurt, you are pissed and armed and now have a wide open field

to shoot one of your assailants in the back and kill her. Would you? I know you don't give a fuck, but this is not your average day either.

[Atman]

176. I give a fuck.

Not sure this old dude did, though.

[Rex]

179. I C your point now.

I would say NO, he did not give a fuck.

[Tetris_Iguana]

152. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

An old man goes to jail for the rest of his life, and a woman and her child are dead.

[nomorenomore08]

159. Had he shot them while being attacked in his home, I wouldn't thnk twice about it.

But shooting the woman in the back while fleeing makes him guilty of manslaughter at the least.

[XRubicon]

170. He thinks he is in Florida

I predict this won't end well for him.

[Marrah_G]

195. DU has had a real bloodthirsty tone lately

Did we lose the peace crowd?

[valerief]

203. It's not real people. It's the conservative invaders shitting up the place.

They're the DU herpes. They never really go away.

[PowerToThePeople]

200. ban all guns.

The guy is a double murderer.

[Lee-Lee]

206. Not a double murder

A fetus isn't a person, period.

[PowerToThePeople]

209. I support a woman's right to choose

This burgler made her choice clear, her plan was for this fetus to be born. Therfore, she chose personhood for it.

[Travis_0004]

220. If she was concerned about the fetus she should have not been robbing people

[PowerToThePeople]

222. Rush to judgment.

I really hate private property.

[Travis_0004]

228. what do you mean you hate private property?

Im not even saying what the old guy was right to shoot her, and its likely that he will go to trial, but when you break into somebodys house and beat them up there is no guarentee they will act rationally.

[DonCoquixote]

229. you may hate it

but it is the only thing keeping the strong from taking everything you have.

[PowerToThePeople]

230. I think you have that completely backwards. n/t

[clarice]

256. Why? nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

290. ......aaaaand there it is, folks....

Just owning a house makes you one of the bad guys to certain DU'ers, and worthy of being robbed and beaten in your home.

[X_Digger]

318. I swear, that has to be a plant. Too over the top to be anything else.

Shades of previous trolls grahmforanything or defendandprotect.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

348. Sadly, I think they are dead serious

Just can't articulate why. Must be a hell of as rabbit hole.

defendandprotect....shit that's old school.

[PowerToThePeople]

343. That is the most ignorant thing I have seen in this thread

Well maybe not, but it is close.

No one is claiming the victim deserved what happened.

What I am saying is so many people think the girl deserved death. That is sick. People condoning shooting someone in the back do not belong on a liberal message board.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

347. Bullshit

I've yet to see anyone say she "deserved" death. What I have seen is a lot of people lacking sympathy for a person who decided to give no quarter to a frail old man, and got none back when the tables were turned.

And your garbage wringing your hands about private property is the most ignorant thing in this thread.

[clarice]

254. Maybe we should also ban old people. nt

[PowerToThePeople]

281. Only ones with guns. n/t

[clarice]

282. now THAT was funny. nt

[Calista241]

212. So, old dude is getting beat up and goes down.

On the way down, he breaks his collar bone.

He manages to pull out his holstered .22 pistol. Unholstering a pistol has to be done precisely. Holsters are designed to only let the gun move in 1 direction, usually straight up. Any twisting or mis-handling will usually retard the withdrawal of the pistol, and the user will have to try again. This is a safety feature for holsters to prevent misfires or dropping of the firearm.

The Male burglar sees the gun and bolts, while pregnant female sees it and tries to bolt, but manages to plead for her life and her babies life before he shoots her a couple times.

That's a complicated sequence. The old guy is lying on the ground and can't get up (he has a gun in 1 hand, and a bad shoulder wound on his other side).

The .22 is a small caliber, relatively inaccurate, very low power bullet; and the dude is holding the pistol 1 handed. Most people don't practice shooting with 1 hand, and doing so with any accuracy at all is extremely, extremely difficult. She had to be very close to him to have the slightest chance of getting hit.

If I was the detective, and this story was told to me verbally, I'd have a hard time believing it.

[Rex]

225. He must have gotten up and chased her, they ended up in a back alley behind the house.

Maybe it was the adrenaline running through his blood stream, that overwrote his level of pain threshold.

[snooper2]

218. Here is a link for the real story and video "raw story" stole from

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Long-Beach-Homeowner-Shoots-Kills-Intruder--268364152.html

[Rex]

223. Here is what will get him convicted of a crime.

"I come back and they see me with a gun, and they run," he said.

The man escaped, but the woman fell after being struck by Greer's gunfire in an alley behind the house.
"She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant! I'm going to have a baby!' And I shot her anyway," Greer said.

When asked what he saw happen to the woman after he fired shots, Greer responded: "She was dead. I shot her twice, she best be dead ... (The man) had run off and left her."

[MH1]

239. "the law says you can't shoot somebody under those circumstances."

straight from the article you linked to, "the real story".

There is a reason why the law is written that way.

From what I gathered from that article - it isn't entirely clear but is strongly implied - he arrived at his house and saw that he was being robbed, and instead of calling the cops, he got his gun and confronted the thieves.

When did the morality in this country - and among supposed "liberals" even on this site - come to the point that property is more valuable than a human life?

If I am understanding the article correctly, when he arrived home he could have chosen to go to a safe place and call the police. Instead he took the law into his own hands and killed someone. And her unborn child, possibly (who knows, I don't think the article confirms that she was actually pregnant, or how far along).

So, he got to be judge, jury and executioner for the crime of burglary. Last I checked, burglary isn't a capital crime in this country, and in any case, there is something called "rule of law" that is supposed to apply here.

The old man may be frail but he was still wrong.

[snooper2]

243. yeah, he is going to jail, can't really shoot somebody in the back as they are running away

He should have shot for the legs but that is just me---

[riqster]

233. He shot one burglar to intimidate the other. A dead human is nothing but a tool to him.

As he said,"I shot her so that’s going to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life.”

He does not care a bit about anyone but himself. Murdering a criminal just to scare another criminal is OK with this sociopathic motherfucker. Lives, to him, are nothing but tools to use to further one's own ends.

And the same low regard for the lives and rights of others seems to afflict some of the commenters on this thread, as well. Or so it seems.

[clarice]

253. How about not breaking into other peoples homes....the logic here is astounding. nt

[riqster]

317. So shooting people in the back is acceptable behavior?

[clarice]

349. If they hadn't broken into the man's house and pushed him around........ !!!!!!!

[riqster]

351. That is what cops and courts are for.

Once again, do you or do you not support shooting unarmed, fleeing people in the back?

Twice? To make sure the person is dead? With deliberate and stated intent to kill? Not to protect yourself, but to send a message, written in blood?

Yes or no?

[clarice]

355. When you spin it that way...no I don't approve.....nor do I

approve of using a horrible instance like this to forward a blatant anti-2nd amendment
agenda. "Never let a good crisis go to waste"

[riqster]

356. Speaking as a gun owner, I don't like anti-2a agendas either.

To my mind, supporting irresponsible gun owners is also damaging to the maintenance of our RKBA. We who would keep our 2A rights need to act like responsible citizens, supporting all of our constitution-derived rights and duties; and those of our fellow Americans.

[clarice]

357. 100%.nt

[Catherine Vincent]

242. Why didn't he shoot at the guy?

Because he was faster and thought he'd miss, I guess. So aim for the slower woman running away pleading with him that she was pregnant. Didn't phase him one bit. Bang! Bang! This dude makes Joe Horn look good...slightly.

[snooper2]

244. he did shoot at the guy, he didn't know if he hit him or not

[Catherine Vincent]

247. Gotcha...thanks!

[WatermelonRat]

249. Anyone who robs and assaults the elderly get's no sympathy from me.

[senseandsensibility]

250. I just saw a story on aol that the male accomplice will be charged with murder

and they are still contemplating what, if anything, to charge the homeowner with.

[VScott]

251. The only mistake he made

was talking to the police.

What he should have done when questioned, was reply with "I'm sorry, but in my state of mind, I'm to
shaken up to discuss it right now". Followed by... "I want to talk with an attorney".

[clarice]

252. Horrible story......why did those two go into the man's house to begin with?nt

[BklnDem75]

285. Unclear about one thing...

Did the two shots to the back kill her? Was it one shot to make her drop, and a final shot while she pleaded for her life and the life of her unborn?

[AngryOldDem]

287. Don't think it really matters at this point.

You don't shoot someone in the back like that, especially when you are 1) protecting property; and 2) your life clearly isn't in danger. Especially 2).

Sounds like the old man wanted to be Dirty Harry. He was definitely shooting to kill.

[BklnDem75]

288. Oh I know that...

The second scenario would probably have less defenders, which is why I asked.

[AngryOldDem]

289. If you get a chance, watch the interview with him.

He's practically bragging.

[AngryOldDem]

286. Well, we'll see what he says when he finds his ass in court, and possibly prison.

Shooting someone in the back negates any claim of self-defense.

Plus, she was unarmed and was begging for her life.

Sounds pretty close to an execution to me.

[Retrograde]

292. Today's update: she wasn't pregnant

Update here. If you're going to rob and beat up an elderly person I suppose you can be cavalier about things like telling the truth.

However, whether or not she was pregnant doesn't change the situation.

[moriah]

295. He still shot her in the back. That's cold-blooded murder.

I'm glad you agree it doesn't change things.

[Kaleva]

302. The women's accomplice has been charged for her murder

"Adams, the alleged accomplice, fled the scene, according to Greer and Chief McDonnell. He was later arrested and charged Friday with five felony counts, including murder in Miller's death, residential robbery , burglary, grand theft firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon. He's currently jailed on $1.25 million bond."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/25/justice/california-slain-burglar-pregnant/

[moriah]

309. I'd say both parties are culpable, under different statutes.

The felony murder charge covers the accomplice, and rightly should. But I hope they charge the homeowner. It's inexcusable to condone shooting a fleeing criminal in the back. The crime's already been committed, anything else is taking the law in your own hands and enforcing the death penalty for robbery.

[Retrograde]

313. There's enough blame to go around

I think the homeowner should be charged with manslaughter, but I'm surprised the felony murder charge applies when one of the perps is killed.

[Hekate]

307. SHE WAS NOT PREGNANT. All those who thought a thief & elder-abuser would never lie for sympathy...

...can line up over there and tell me your new thoughts about this 28 y.o. home invasion robber and her cowardly partner in crime.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

311. My perspective has not changed one bit

He shouldn't have shot her as she was fleeing, but when you beat someone down and treat them like an animal, expect a cornered animal to attack and show you the same quarter you showed them. And when you do awful things to people, expect awful things to happen right back.

[Hekate]

314. Finally something I can completely agree with

I read the new article linked here -- the cops caught her partner in crime, and have also picked up his mother, though apparently they have not yet specified how she was involved in this crime. Sounds like a charming family all the way around.

Oh, and the deceased woman's autopsy showed she was not pregnant. After all those outraged posts about "the baby," up to and including the one speculating about "an 8 month fetus," I just can't say this enough.

[A Little Weird]

327. It shocks me how many people think that a woman's life only has value if she's pregnant

The shooting was not justified and wouldn't have been justified regardless of whether or not she was pregnant. It would have been as wrong if it had been the male burglar instead.

I sympathize with the elderly guy - he was wronged. But his response was also wrong and against the law. That said, I hope he gets a lenient sentence considering all the contributing factors.

[fadedrose]

297. speechless

[flvegan]

319. I see the usual DU armchair lawyer brigade has chimed in.

[freshwest]

330. LOOK: Her accomplice has been charged with murder:

Police say 26-year-old Gus Adams is charged with residential robbery and murder for the deadly burglary on Country Club Lane. Police Chief Jim McDonnell says Adams is being charged with murder, because of the felony murder rule. If you're involved in the act of a felony then you're a party to the murder.

Not the man who pulled the trigger...

Whether or not Greer shot Miller in self defense is an issue of state of mind not actual location.

Neighbors say they aren't surprised this happened on their street. One resident told us a similar home invasion happened just a week ago, causing some neighbors think twice about how they would react.

As for Greer's condition, he is being treated for a broken collar bone. Police are still questioning him, but he is not considered a flight risk. Although police are investigating the case, it could be presented to the DA as soon as tomorrow.

http://www.myfoxla.com/story/26109305/long-beach-police-releases-identities-of-suspects-in-tuesdays-fatal-burglary-in-bixby-knolls

Sorry that's the local Fox station, but it has that surprising detail in it and pictures of the dead woman and her accomplice. They both look healthy and strong and I'd hate to get a beating at their hands. This is a horrifying story, if one imagines the force required to break a collarbone. And now someone is dead.

[NYC_SKP]

336. I'd hate to get that beating, too, and under those specific circumstances....

...I might have been inclined to do the same thing, as rough as it sounds. Until one is in that situation, it's all speculation.

That they were fleeing doesn't remove the sense of fear and terror, and the emotions that one might need to take action.

Further, the woman was not pregnant.

Further still, last I read, the coroner would neither confirm nor deny her having been shot in the back.

In any event, that they were "going away" doesn't mean that they weren't going to "come back".

Self defense immediately after a dreadful beating, that's what I see here.

I don't think the DA is going to charge this at all.

Thanks for the link and details!

[Lurks Often]

345. They both look pretty healthy for allegedly being drug users

as some here have said. Most long term abusers of drugs or alcohol don't look that healthy. Makes one wonder if they were just in it for the money and chose elderly victims because it made their job easier.

[HockeyMom]

352. Your old age doesn't make you ABOVE the law

You cannot shoot even fleeing criminals in the back when they are NO LONGER a threat to you. Stop giving these OLD COOTS a pass.

Damn. I have had far too many run-ins with stupid OLD MEN, who thought because they were OLD, they were ENTITLED to do whatever they wanted. Sorry, Mister, you must abide by the law even at your age.

[HockeyMom]

353. These old men are sexists also

That woman saying she was pregnant probably pissed him off too. I am going to post my own experience with these poor, old, sexist men on an OT soon.