The pick and choose pro-death penalty crowd.

[trumad]

What is the pick and choose DP crowd?

Its the crowd who wants to use the DP for real obvious criminals who murder horribly.

I ask pro DP folks all the time two simple questions: Is the DP 100 percent accurate?

Meaning-- are we certain that a judicial mistake was never made--- and--- an innocent person was not put to death because of that mistake.

Answer from the majority I ask-- No....we can't be certain. I do appreciate their honesty with that question.

I then ask: If it is not 100 percent full proof, do you still support the DP?

The answer: YES

One way they answer is--- oh well--- mistakes will happen but it's for the betterment of society.

My opinion of people who answer that way plummets dramatically. I think they are moral douchebags.

The other answer is: OK--- then we should only execute the real guilty ones---the one's who very obviously committed the crime.

That is the pick and choose crowd.

He or she should die because they dismembered 3 men and sold their body parts two Vampires.

He or she killed 5 people and it was recorded on film. So there--- Obvious guilt---Kill em.

So in their opinion--- we should only execute the real guilty ones who killed extra good.

I don't think they understand the slippery slope when you pick and choose like that. How do you judge who dies?

A scorecard?

You have to kill a certain amount of people? You have to kill children or pregnant women? You have to confess and it has to be on film?

Where do you stop and who makes that list?

The death penalty is flawed in so many ways and this in my most humble opinion is it's biggest flaw.

[el_bryanto]

1. What's interesting to me about the Death Penalty debate

Is if you knew the person was guilty, does that change your answer? I generally oppose the Death Penalty because you could execute an innocent person - but if you knew the person was guilty, I don't know if I would have as big a problem with it. I might well support it.

But I know other people for whom executing even the guilty is not something a civilized society should do.

I also think it's a complex issue; but I've noticed it's very simple for some.

Bryant

[trumad]

2. Oh don't get me wrong.

There are guilty murderers.

My point is--- there are also not guilty people sitting on death row.....

Do you keep the current system and just turn your head?

No---I think that is barbaric.

So what do you do... Change the whole system?

[rock]

20. Even if I knew the person was guilty I'd be against it

I simply will not approve of our government willfully killing its citizens.

[Live and Learn]

28. +1 nt

[NightWatcher]

3. Life in prison protects society just as much as executing the offender

We don't need to show them that murder is bad, by murdering them.

Also, look around at the other countries that still execute. It's a who's who of backward, savage countries. We don;t need to be in that club anymore.

[whatthehey]

24. It does?

James Prestridge. Escaped. Killed again.

Cuhuatemec Peralta. Killed 3 people. LWP. Killed again in prison.

Edward Kennedy. Escaped. Killed 2. Executed. Killed nobody thereafter.

Dawud Mu'Min. Escaped. Raped and killed. Executed. Killed/raped nobody thereafter.

Viva Nash. Convicted to 2 life sentences. Escaped. Killed again.

There's a lot more....


Oh and Furman.... the guiding light of anti-DP crowd gave us folks like Kenneth MacDuff whose DP conviction for multiple murder was overturned and who killed at the very least 7 more women. He's a real charmer who said "kiling a woman is like killing a chicken - they both squawk"

Why is concern for loss of innocent life only extended to the convict and not to his future victims?

If you are concerned about DP proponents who admit that it's possible people innocent of a specific crime at least were executed, I'm more than concerned about opponents who cavalierly wave off future murders by those who could/should have been executed. The DP is the only, without exception, way to ensure killers never kill again.

[NightWatcher]

25. How many people have escaped from a federal super max?

You point out a problem with prison security that needs to be addressed.

Bring state prisons where condemned lifers reside up to the level of a super max. I've studied the death penalty and think that it is a flawed system. No system is perfect, but I am not in favor of killing killers to teach them that killing is wrong.

[CBGLuthier]

4. I have a friend who is the antithesis of this

He once calmly explained to a man whose wife had been killed by Timothy McVeigh why he was totally against the DP. That is standing on your principles.

I force myself to read the account of every execution. As long as my country does this I feel it is something I have to do. I look forward to not having to do this.

As much as I wanted McVeigh to die I know that he would have suffered more if he had been locked away forever until he would have been forgotten and died old and alone. Instead he became a martyr to people not worth spitting on.

Ultimately it is the inequity that makes me anti-DP.

[trumad]

6. I guess Timothy would make that scorecard.

You have to bomb a building and kill scores of people to be put to death.

[CBGLuthier]

9. Yes

and it would not bother them even though his co conspirator, every bit as guilty even if he did not rent the truck, will rot in a prison until he dies, simply because he got a more sympathetic jury that deadlocked on the DP.

[trumad]

11. But this is a pick and choose---yes?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. I used to be part of that crowd, before I finally went 100% opposed.

And I think your arguments here are poor.

There are murderers for whom the evidence is indeed 100%. Some folks are shown committing their crimes and being apprehended on video. Or they are witnessed to have committed the crime, and again, apprehended before leaving the scene. The mass murderer in the Gabby Giffords shooting comes to mind.

So there is certainly a case to be made that in some cases, there can be no question that the person involved actually committed one or more murders. Your pick and choosers could thus say, ONLY in such cases should the DP exist. If there is even one iota of doubt that the person on trial is not the same person as committed murder, the DP should be off the table.

What's the 'scorecard' in that case? One murder. Doesn't matter if it's a child, an adult, more than one, whatever. There simply can't be any way for the defense to argue that you 'have the wrong person' in any non-ludicrous way.

So I beg to differ with your humble opinion as to what the 'biggest flaw' is.

So why am I 100% anti DP these days? Because it's not 'justice'. It's vengeance. It doesn't 'make anything better'. It doesn't bring victims back to life. All it does is turn those who mourn the loss of victims into ghouls who relish it when it goes wrong and takes the killer hours to die. And turn the agents of the state into murderers as well.

[trumad]

8. OK---

I think you made my point because you are pick and choosing.

The system isn't designed to pick and choose. It's designed so a jury can say guilty---a judge can say DP.

AND as we know--- they have made many mistakes over the years.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

15. My point was that there actually is a good case for the pick and choosers.

IF you believe that anyone should receive the death penalty, the 'pick and choose' is actually a far better option than simply having it open for any killer, especially if the basis of the choice is 100% evidence of guilt like you had in the Gabby Giffords mass shooting. Your point seemed to be that there was some slippery slope possibility - but even if we grant the 'slippery slope', the end-point of the slippery slope is where we already are, with pretty much anybody being open to being put to death.

We're where we are now, with innocent people having been killed, exactly because there wasn't any such 100% standard required. So I disagree with your claim that that picking and choosing is 'the biggest flaw', not that we shouldn't simply strive to eliminate the death penalty. I agree with that.

[trumad]

17. Far better option?

But it does not work that way.

I should have worded it a bit better. I mean't the not 100 percent full proof part of it was the biggest flaw---

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

21. Ah.

I see, you're saying the people you call the 'pick and choose crowd', support the death penalty in its current incarnation, not in a form in which the availability of it as a penalty would hinge on 'perfect evidence' of guilt.

[trumad]

27. Yes

[snooper2]

7. I get to make the list, 1st on the list is anybody who rapes and murders children

they are sick rabid dogs that need to be put down-

[trumad]

10. OK---

You do know that men who were found guilty of rape and murder were freed from prison---Death Row--- because DNA exonerated them.

[snooper2]

12. There would have to be DNA evidence, or video, overwhelming evidence or an admission of guilt

[trumad]

13. OK....

but that's not the way it works with today's DP.

So what you are saying is--- the DP needs to be reworked.

[snooper2]

14. Yes, the DP needs to be reworked, and some humans are just pure fucking evil

and need to be plucked from the herd..



But I grew up on a farm so maybe I have a different perspective.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

16. He/she is actually arguing that we should expand the

number of types of crime that result in the death penalty.

Which is a 'reform' that is in exactly the wrong direction, resulting in the state murdering more people, not fewer.

[trumad]

18. trumad is a he

and that is not what I am arguing.

Wow---I can't believe you thought that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

23. I didn't think that about you.

My comment was to you, but about snooper, who wants to add the death penalty as a penalty for certain rapes, as well as for murders.

[trumad]

26. Oh sorry

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Flaws in the jury system are just one problem with the DP...

and if I were pro-DP I'd say them's the breaks-- mistakes will be made like with any human endeavor. But, I am absolutely opposed to it and so that argument obviously doesn't work for me. But, it is honest.

Someone else already said that capital punishment is revenge, not justice and that's my primary objection to it. That and that killing for any reason is just plain wrong.

Most legal systems, both secular and religious, attempt to take emotion out of the process by setting clear rules and punishments. Punishment, in some of the most enlightened systems, isn't really considered punishment but justice, which is a much larger concept. Essentially, it's not hurting you for what you did but an attempt to make it right. Killing you for killing someone else makes absolutely no sense. It's "an eye for an eye" for sure, but doesn't help the victim, the survivors, or society in general. Agreed, prison isn't much better at that most of the time, but it's not killing.

It's true that the death penalty is not universally applied-- if anyone deserved it, the Green River killer would be top of the list, but he made a deal. Meanwhile, some poor "last in line" slob in Texas who wasn't even the shooter gets the needle because by the time they got to him there were no more deals to be made and the DA just had to have a capital case.

Almost every modern country on the planet has eliminated death from its judicial menu, and some, like Japan, who still have it don't brag about it. Others, like Brazil, just don't use it.

It's just us, trying to bend the world to our will but still carrying the bloody sword.

[haele]

22. I don't support the death penalty because I don't want "Revenge Killing" in my name.

I feel sorry for the victims, and compassion for the relatives, but Vengeance is a personal action, not a State action. Once the State begins to be involved in Vengeance, then all bets are off when it comes to weighing justice with mercy for any crime. The law of the land becomes the law of the mob.
Once Vengeance is legitimized, go ahead and throw away justice. All you have to do is look at the comments section under any local news story and see what vengeance and anger will do to a community.

You an addict and start to OD? Should the police try to save you with that new OD inhaler? No, you're a fuck up, and waste of time, money and resources to the community. Just die. Your family and the community is better off without you.

You can't pay your rent? You inadvertently stiffed a business owner because you ended up short at the end of the month?
You fucked up, you couldn't pay on time, whether or not your finances may have gotten screwed up because of identity theft or an emergency - or just poor bookkeeping. It doesn't matter; they want their money for services now, and they don't need to work with you. Petty theft, automatically guilty, no trial needed. Your responsibility to pay after all.

Too tired to drive, but you did anyway? Or you didn't see the kid darting out behind your car while you were backing out?
Well, maybe you aren't the nicest person in the community, maybe even a trouble maker, so you aren't "sympathetic enough" when compared to the hysterical mom who has lost her little baby.
The local population wants to charge you with 2nd Degree Murder because that sweet little 6 year old is dead, a nice family is devastated, and you shouldn't have been going that fast, even if it was under the speed limit. You are a troublemaker anyway, so in your case, there's "no such thing as accidents".

You see it all the time in third world countries. Emotions run the law, and it becomes corrupt, because there's always something that you can hang a punishment onto, if that's all you think of the law as being "good for".
That's why there are secular laws based on logic, evidence, and fairness, with the aim to reducing harm and recidivism of crime - instead of just an action/punishment cycle. And a death penalty is not part of reducing harm and recidivism; all it can be is a sop to the victims family, if they're the eye to an eye type.

To paraphrase: "when all the laws are cut down because they protect the Devil you are attempting to drive out, what will stand to protect you when the Devil turns on you?"

Haele