Both right. Both wrong. But only one really bears responsibility.

Powerful forces in Israel are determined to never give back major portions of the West Bank. Everything that is happening there derives from that. The settlements are the key issue and unmistakable proof of the real Israeli objective.

When the Palestinians are passive, Israel builds settlements. When the Palestinians start to fight back, the Israelis build more settlements. It is slow motion ethnic cleansing.

There are many dangers here for Israel, in spite of its vast military superiority. The Palestinians have been a relatively moderate people. Israel's actions have pushed many into the waiting arms of the religious extremists, much like they have done in Lebanon. If all Palestinian society turns to fundamentalist Islam, the region will explode.

Israelis and Palestinians. The wall of anger and hate on the part of the Palestinians is impenetrable. It is understandable. They have fought wars and lost and lost and lost. The problem is that they are a people, not a well organized nation with a tradition of civil authority.

First they were governed by the Turks as a part of the Ottoman Empire and then by the British under the British mandate. Since that time, since the UN mandate for partition, they have been unable to form a government focused on peace rather than on revenge.

Israel is constantly on the alert because Palestinians and their various allies have tried quite a few times to attack Israel and failed to win.

That is demeaning and frustrating for the Palestinians. Understandably, it makes them angry. There have been attempts at peace, agreements for peace, cease-fires, but they are always broken by hot-heads on one side or the other, usually on the Palestinian side.

If giving back territory could satisfy the injured pride of the Palestinians, Israel would probably do it to get peace. But it probably would not work. It would just make for more war and more killing as the Palestinians would try to get back the whole enchilada since in their view the whole country rightfully belongs to them.

There is no way to resolve this thing other than to wait it out.

The killing is just horrible. But I am very pessimistic as to whether there can be a solution. I don't think that outsiders going in on either side is helpful. It just makes the embarrassment and defeat more humiliating for the Palestinians.

The Palestinians never directly attacked Israel before the occupation. They were, for the most part, a part of Jordan. The Palestinians had no say in Jordan's attitude towards Israel.

Israel will not willingly give back the land for peace. If you believe they would, you need to explain the settlements, but you cannot. Instead you post BS about Palestinians hurt pride. It isn't about pride, it is about the OCCUPATION.

As for the Palestinians, they've put several very good deals on the table to the Israelis guaranteeing land for peace but the Israelis constantly make demands that no Palestinian could accept. Those demands would give Israel permanent control over much of the West Bank and over the government of the Palestinians. In other words, it would be a state in name only.

Where do you get your information?

A wise friend of mine once proposed the following solution:

"Put all of the Palestinians to sleep for a year. While they're asleep, build nice houses for each Palestinian family. Put a car in each garage. Build some schools, colleges, malls, and all the other stuff the American middle class has*. When everyone wakes up, give them decent jobs with raises every year. Give them Democracy, water, and dignity. Once they have livable lives and hope for the future, they'll calm the #%^* down in a few months and get on with things." (Given this friend's vocabulary, it would be criminal to not include an expletive.)

I think my friend was right: the Palestinians have never known such a life, they've only known unrelenting misery. Let them taste a sweet alternative, and perhaps they'll want to keep it.

Another good friend is of Arabic descent, he used to be very active in the Palestinian cause, in particular trying to get dialog going between Jews and Arabs (he's given it up as a hopeless cause). He blames both sides for this trouble. One thing that he's said is that Israel and the US have worked hard to ensure that the Palestinians have leaders who cannot make peace. Strong, honest, and well-intentioned leaders who could make peace are marginalized by Israel and the US so that trouble keeps up. He claims (and I believe him) that Israel and the US could stop this practice, and good leaders will emerge - he often names Hanan Asrawi (sp?) as one.

In the end, I don't know if this is solvable. But I only see one possibility.

*that was back when we had a middle class.

. . . rec

Israeli withdrawal from Gaza should not, in theory, have been followed up by the area then being used as a base for firing weekly rocket barrages. It doesn't offer a lot of hope that unilateral action (as the Gaza withdrawal was) will actually lead to an improvement.

It is about pride, and anger has become even more than a habit. Anger is now viewed as a righteous virtue. The reactions of many well meaning people do not help. What can help is to keep talking about the importance of a two-nation solution. That is the concept in my opinion that permits each side to have national pride in itself.

Obviously, Palestinians need to have help in obtaining the essentials -- water, etc., but beyond that, they need a lot of help in organizing self-government. They hold elections, but they don't really, from what I can tell, have a sense of being a nation with the responsibilities that entails -- like preventing your citizens from acting like vigilantes and trying to avenge national or personal wrongs.

The deaths of Palestinians is a horrible thing. But both sides suffer from the terrible fear of the violence from the other side. And both sides are very proud.

Don't forget. The Holocaust is still very present to the Israelis. They cannot be expected to get over thousands of years of persecution and repression in less than 100. Same for the Palestinians.

That anyone could honestly believe that what's driving Palestinian rage at the moment is not the massive body count, not the 80% civilian death toll -- which is clearly indicative of Israel's intent, not the entire families wiped out by missiles and bombs -- 52 of of them so far and counting. Not the siege, not the embargos, not the settlements, not the new buffer zone occupying 44% of Gaza's real estate. Not the dead children. Almost 250 of them now. Not the massive numbers of gravely wounded, last time I saw approaching nearly 7,000. Not the 180,000 people displaced from their homes.

No, it's just stubbornly irrational Palestinian pride. That's all.

Do you have any idea how racist that sounds?

Any idea at all?

Do you care?

That's what the US wants. It's what makes sense. But Palestinians are not united in accepting that solution. If they were, it would be the reality no matter what Israelis say. Why? Because the two-state solution is what the US wants.

But to have peace, both sides have to be able to guarantee the peace. So far, Palestinians have not been able to do that because they do not enforce or cannot enforce peace on those among them who are militants and want Israel destroyed.

I have watched the history of the area since I was a child, since about 1952 maybe earlier. My father collected aid for the Palestinians way back then. I am very familiar with this situation and have predicted some of the wars. The 1973/74 war, for example.

The conflict goes on and on and with each fight, Palestine loses more of everything it needs. It's time for the Palestinian leadership to wise up and try to focus the attention of its people on making their lives better and building the institutions a nation needs. If they succeed in doing that, just wait, they will get some land returned and what they need and want.

That's because Israel is surrounded on all sides by hostile nations and needs peace. Israel will pay a price for peace if Israel can just get a reasonable estimate on what the price is.

Because in the context of what I said, your response, while a nice canned slice of hasbara, is a complete nonsequitur as a reply to my post.

No human on the planet could be expected to tolerate what the Palestinians are enduring (mostly, the ones who aren't, you know, being slaughtered) without feeling a deep and abiding sense of well-justified rage towards their persecutors. But you chalk this all up to prejudice, intransigence, and pride on their part instead. Why should a Palestinian not respond as every other reasonable human would respond under the same circumstances? How is it rational to chalk this up to something else, unless you're calling the Palestinians something less than human.

Is that what you're doing?

There is no rational defense for what Israel is doing to Palestinians. American slavery and South African apartheid relied on the same defenses as Israel uses.

You seem to be following the script from the "Israeli Project" propaganda manual.

The Palestinians have never had a opportunity to get a real two state solution. The Israelis have made proposals, but they always include such outrageous restrictions, that the Palestinians would have a state in name only. Sort of like the phony "nations" inside of apartheid South Africa. Your "some land" returned statement shows your true colors.

The settlements prove your Israeli propaganda points are nonsense. Israel wants to annex all the key parts of the West Bank.

They want the whole enchilada. And intend to get it, civilian casualties be damned.

Should the statement that a people does not "have a sense of being a nation with the responsibilities that entails -- like preventing your citizens from acting like vigilantes and trying to avenge national or personal wrongs" be re-examined from the perspective that we as a citizenry utterly failed to prevent W from wreaking his havoc on the world?

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of what you have stated, but after directly experiencing the failure of our country to do the right thing (in so many ways) under W, it seems that holding other groups to a standard that we ourselves could not meet should be reconsidered if it is to be used in a discussion.

What do you think? I have no answers - just this one observation.

The Israeli right perpetuates a Jewish sense of victimhood to get the Israeli citizens persecute Palestinians much like the Jews were persecuted in the past. Israel's logic is so twisted now that instead of thinking "we were always badly mistreated, so knowing how that feels, maybe we shouldn't mistreat others" they think "we will mistreat others so we won't be mistreated".

To suggest the Holocaust justifies Israel's brutal and illegal treatment of the Palestinians is disgusting.

Something feels different about this Israeli war. Previous incursions have gone without much import, the IDF killing hundreds of Palestinians, Palestinians making the diplomatic rounds excoriating Israel, and then everything settling back down into a dull stalemate. Even with US media bias, it’s gotten through the media filter that Israel’s war against Gaza is both disproportionate and horrific. When you trap a population in a Mediterranean gulag, and then pummel it, even the most jaundiced see that it’s morally reprehensible. No, Hamas shouldn’t launch rockets at Israel. But Israel has a rather effective missile defense system. Gaza has AK-47s. It is not an equal contest.

snip

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025303921

And sadly...

Palestinians won’t murder Israeli civilization; they don’t have that power. But Israel is perfectly capable of committing suicide. What’s needed on all sides is a recognition of common humanity. Nothing else will suffice. Without it, the darkness will only grow deeper.



http://theobamadiary.com/2014/07/28/the-fire-next-time/

It's a sad world Manny. I would love to see us give peace a chance. It is our only hope.

What I wouldn't give to see the word PEACE used again in our common vernacular.

War does not have to be our permanent state of existence.

But think of all of the bloody PROFIT that is being made by the weapons manufacturers right now - the Gaza conflict is merely the latest "profit center" for these corporate vampires. Remember - it's all blood money. It is worth our soul as a nation to provide any kind of sanctuary for the for-profit weapons industry? They make their take from both sides of almost any conflict - and have done so for decades.

One of your best in my book. The idea is righteous and simple, the implementation is not so simple. It would have to be a step at a time because as we know nothing will stop this in one fell swoop. But my personal opinion, the thing that has to change for these atrocities to end would be the end to ideologies that insist on a tit for a tat, an eye for an eye, equal measure for equal measure. Some side has to decide to stop the madness in its tracks and wait... wait... make a plan and a plea.. while protecting themselves but with no counter measure. It's a long shot because of the damage done so far on both sides and because ideologies don't just lay down and die.

But if there is a chance, this is it. Otherwise... round and round...

What must die are the faulty systems and the hearts of revenge. There is no military/political solution.

Good post Manny..

Shhhh.. I think I'm on ignore but I post anyway...

You're not on *my* ignore.

well said

Great post, Manny. The world is weeping for the slaughtered.

"All we are saying... is give peace a chance." Immortal true words.

I just don't think that the Palestinians would accept help from the Israelis, not to the extent that the Palestinians need.

We haven't heard much about the tunnels on DU. But I picked up the Jewish Journal at the local library so that I could find out what Israel was saying to justify the invasion. It seems that Palestinians had constructed tunnels into Israel that lead to kibbutzes, and the Israelis believed that the Palestinians had come to kidnap some Israelis or to do terrorist acts. I don't know whether that is true. But truth is not important. On both sides, beliefs are being acted upon.

I just doubt that there is enough trust on either side for Israel to help the Palestinians. I suspect that if Israel tried, the Palestinians would still feel cheated and respond with violence and hatred. And then, of course, in turn, the Israelis would respond with violence and anger.

The problem is that Palestine does not want the presence of Israel in the area. But Israel has nowhere to go. So the two parties are stuck.

The Palestinians, through the PLO, have put several good deals on the table recognizing Israel and Israel's right to exist.

The Palestinians don't want the presence of Israel in the West Bank. You know the illegal occupation. You always conveniently forget about that in your psychobabble about pride.

Pride sucks, but it's real. People kill each other over pride, aka respect.

(Your tone could be a little less harsh, too, although I know this is a highly-charged subject.)

If it was only up to them, I believe there could be a peaceful resolution. Hamas OTOH is another story. Their charter calls for the eradication of Israel PERIOD. Their hatred of the Jew would not end if every one of them left Gaza and the West Bank. We see all the dead Palestinians as innocent victims. They see them a martyrs.
It's sad to say, but as long as Hamas hold any sway at all, there will be no peace.

Good post.

ever read on DU. I truly hope that somehow Israel can find a way to embrace peace.

Me, agreeing with Manny Goldstein---that is

good post ! k/r

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

- Peace will come when we get rid of all the Granfalloons.

And only then.......

Suppose that tomorrow, Israel unilaterally announced that it would withdraw to its 1967 borders and recognize an independent state of Palestine on the West Bank and Gaza. There would be issues to work out, of course, such as the fate of East Jerusalem, but let's suppose that it was done in a way that many outside observers thought reasonable. To an approximation, this is what was on the table during the Camp David negotiations in 2000, though the Palestinians had real cause for objections to many of the provisions.

Would Palestinians be satisfied with such an outcome?

For what it's worth, my guess is that some would and some would not. I think that moderate Palestinians, such as some of those leading Fatah, would embrace this. Unfortunately, however, some would not. Hamas, almost certainly, would still want to eliminate Israel altogether.

This isn't to say that Israel shouldn't do this anyway (though perhaps over time, and not necessarily tomorrow), because it would be the right thing to do. But I don't think it would stop the long-term war, unfortunately.

but you can find these types in almost every country.

I really agree with this post.

Way to go, Manny!

I think it's hard for outsiders to "get" what the state of Israel means even to those Jews who have absolutely no interest in going there: it's the one place they can go without trouble if the world produces another antisemitic death machine like it did in the 1930s.

A lot of folks are silent about this because they fear being disloyal to their last possible refuge should the shit ever hit the fan in their direction again.

However, a few open ended questions will turn up a lot of very decent people who want Israel to survive, but not like this. The cost is too high. Bibi's got to go, and with him, the war hawks. Not only are they courting absolute ruin by alienating all their allies, they're also alienating the people with the greatest reason to support them.

As I see it, the only way this is going to end "peacefully" is for Israel to completely decimate Palestine (which I'm against). If Israel leaves anyone alive who is able bodied, Hamas will say "See what a monster Israel is? Join our fight!" and people will. Same thing all over the Middle East. Our war in Iraq created many more terrorists than originally existed. In a sense this is a continuation of the "war on terror" and sadly, those that are fighting against terrorism are the ones doing the better job of creating new terrorists.

"Peaceful" for Israel, you mean. For the people who really matter.

because there is no peaceful outcome for anyone.

so how can it be ethnic cleansing ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19391809

There will be more and more mass death.

How can you be so fucking callous?

It has nothing to do with total population. It has everything to do with where the population lives.

For what it is worth, I agree with you completely. It is always the people I care about, and I value all human life equally.

That is why I can recommend your post. you appear to put the people first and are recommending solutions that do not favor sides but do consider power balances. I think that like me, you want the dying to stop on both sides of the conflict, killing on a much larger scale could end the war, but would not stop death, it would glorify it and crown it with a wreath of "victory" that would bring shame to the wearer.

Humanity and empathy could also end the fighting after a time, and would be the true victory for all the human lives involved, you are a good man Manny you see this all clearly.

k and r

There can be no viable Palestinian state while the West Bank is sliced & diced by Israeli settlements and the roads connecting them.

One of two things must happen:
1) Israelis abandon their West Bank settlements, some of which have been their homes for generations now.
2) Israelis in the West Bank agree to live within the Palestinian state under Palestinian authority.

What is the liklihood that either will come to pass?

While peace talk after peace talk has failed, facts on the ground are slowly and inexorably established with every home that is constructed in the growing settlements.

The problem the Jews will have to contend with if/when Greater Israel is finally and fully established is the demographic time bomb of the people living within their borders. Unless a mass exodus or annihilation of Palestinians occurs, Jews will eventually be a minority in the Jewish State. Greater Israel will either be an apartheid state or no longer a Jewish state.

see peace there in my lifetime.

Israel's best weapon against Hamas is hope. Give the Palestinian's hope, give them a reason to look forward to tomorrow, give parents a reason to believe their children will grow up and be able to live free in peace. Give them the ability to have a home, a Palestine. It won't be easy and it will take generations, but eventually long-lasting peace can be achieved.

required military service, taught in school about the past Jews and Israel has endured. Pretend though that aside from news reports of a few rockets falling here or there (still scary like nothing we deal with) and some Palestinian crime/attacks, you have lived a relatively comfortable life. You are taught to fear and hate the Palestinians and radical Islamics and have seen film of clerics calling for the death of everyone and everything you know. You live in fear that several Muslim countries will unite and attack your country, or give real, effective weapons with which to attack you. You are glad the Palestinians are poor and have no army. While you are not overjoyed with all of the civilian deaths in Gaza, you justify it because Hamas is hiding in hospitals and schools and attacking your country from these places, shielded, so they though, by these innocents.

You are Palestinian. You have seen how the Jewish people live and how others in the West live. You know poverty, hunger, and discrimination. You know relatives who have been killed or beaten, maybe you yourself have been beaten. You cannot leave to start a life somewhere else, and have little hope of getting out of the poverty you live in. You might even have been displaced from the home you lived in, maybe more than once, as Israel went back on its agreements to preserve your People's land. You have endured abuse from Settlers while Israeli soldiers stood and watched, maybe even took part in it. You have seen Israeli soldiers use Palestinians as human shields to keep from being hit by rocks and Molotov cocktails. Now you live in abject fear as your neighborhood was blown up, only just escaping thanks to the phone call you received minutes before it was destroyed. You lost everything, home, pictures, friends, your school, the hospital, relatives, the job you had until the business was blown up or went under due to the severe restrictions getting anything in or out of Gaza. You may not have supported Hamas. They haven't had elections since they came to power years ago.

Complicated sure, but it doesn't excuse what is happening now! Israelis have forgotten the lessons of the Holocaust. Our MIC had a requirement that at least half of the 3 billion in "aid" we give them must be spent buying OUR military hardware! We have our share of the blame in this!

Israel is the one with the power in this terrible situation, and only Israel can solve it. Unfortunately, both sides are behaving like drug addicts who are refusing rehab. When they are forced to go (International pressure to negotiate peace) neither side will stick to it.

Way to go Manny!

... value your posts and opinions.

And thank you Manny. Splendid post. We allow and encourage refugees from Europe to move to another land where the Palestinians have lived for, well, ever. We call this new country Israel, and our closest ally. Our closest ally is a religious state that - let's be honest - doesn't integrate the original occupants into THEIR OWN COUNTRY. They take more land every day, and they remain our closest ally. Then we scream at kids on buses. Kids who are suffering. Whose parents thought putting their children through the hell of that journey was better than what awaited them at home. Israel gets billions of dollars from us, and you better not F with THAT! But this is different. Wonder why. How perplexing... How very perplexing.

I think all people world wide are thinking about how to pay rent. And JUST GET BY. Nowadays. I'm sure most Israelis aren't for this, we are all just people, trying to get through life, with maybe a little bit of happy thumb on the scale. People are all the same - I have found - in lots of travel. But good grief. Guatemala is a stunning country. El Salvador is a stunning country. Honduras is a stunning country. The people are amazing. Amazing! Now their countries are hell holes. But can we count them as them human beings who love their children as only parents can? And could we give them NOT hate??? I thought not. And not from here - DU But out There... I love DU! I think we think. That's good. That's very good. Thank you DU-

I think the history of how Israel got to be the place it is now, particularly through 1980 or so, is a somewhat more subtle than "a bunch of Europeans grabbed land". There was some very good stuff, and some very bad, and blame spreads all over - Zionists, European powers, Palestinians and other Arabs, and others.