Most of the Palestinian casualties have been adult males

[oberliner]

For some reason "slaughtering women and children" is repeated as a description of Israel's actions in Gaza, but it’s primarily adult males who have been killed.

Gaza has a population that is over half female, yet, according to the most recent Palestinian Ministry of Health numbers, the percentage of those killed who are male is a little under 90 percent.

The fact that so many children have been killed is absolutely horrific and deserving of the strongest possible condemnation.

Israel is clearly conducting itself with a callous disregard for Palestinian civilian life, but this notion that Israel is just ordering the "mass murder of women and children" or the "genocide of the Palestinian people" or anything of that nature is just absolutely preposterous.

Question the motives for the Israeli incursion, certainly – call right-wing nutty Netanyahu out on his bs and lies and his dehumanizing statements about Palestinians. Speak out against the killing of children, the bombing of civilian buildings, mosques, schools. All condemnable.

But Israel is not just on some kind of sadistic quest to slaughter large numbers of Palestinian women and children. That's just not what is happening.

Israel is trying to destroy tunnels, hit rocket launchers, destroy munitions, kill Hamas leaders (and active members). The problem is that they don't particularly care if they end up killing some civilians who are in the area of a target.

If a rocket is launched by Hamas from near a school- Israel will shoot back at that rocket launcher and if they hit the school and kill some innocent people there, Israel's attitude is "so be it".

If there is a tunnel, Israel will bomb the the tunnel - with a half-assed warning to the people who might be living in the homes around the tunnel. If there are some civilians who are killed in the process, the Israeli government attitude is "oh well".

This is the fundamental problem with what Israel is doing and why they should be condemned. The hyperbole found on DU, and elsewhere, is not necessary. Israel is doing enough actual bad things right now that they should be taken to task for.

And, of course, Israel is not special in this regard. The US army has killed many many more civilians in its recent “incursions” when the threat to the US mainland was minimal (possibly non-existent). NATO airstrikes continue to destroy families, kill children, destroy homes. To say nothing of some non-Western armies and paramilitary groups around the world. Generally these do not seem to result in the same sort of passionate worldwide response as when Israel behaves similarly.

It's also easy to forget a few things about Hamas, and other "resistance" organizations.

The Hamas leadership – not too long ago – themselves orchestrated a regular series of suicide bombing of Israeli men, women, and children. Civilians targeted on purpose, repeatedly, including babies and senior citizens. This is not ancient history.

Many Israelis have some connection to someone who was killed in such an attack in the late 90’s early 2000s. Attacks that were cheered and celebrated by Hamas - during a time when other Israeli and Palestinian leaders were working towards peace.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, those who did. I stand with all those who support peace and oppose violence.

[leftynyc]

1. Good post, Oberliner

Unfortunately, you're posting in a place that only sees black and white and Israel is the devil and hamas are the good guys who always tell the truth. The dead women and children break my heart but what also hurts is how Israel has been forced to lower themselves to deal with hamas.

[ann---]

4. The only one who

"forced" Israel to act this way is Bibi Yahoo and those who support and fund him. Killing innocents is not a way to "deal with Hamas." Those dead children women and men civilians are NOT Hamas.

[leftynyc]

7. So what's your brilliant answer

to stop rockets from raining down on Israel every single day? You can try and separate the Gazans from the government they voted for but that's not how reality works.

[frylock]

32. i guess you stop the rockets by not provoking Hamas..

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank , Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

[leftynyc]

50. Reward terrorists?

That's your answer? Since hamas has been killing Israeli's for decades, using this current mess to defend them is intellectual dishonesty.

[RobertEarl]

5. The women and children are in hiding

They get killed when a missile or bomb is dropped on where they are hiding, except that if in a tunnel deep underground they are safe. No wonder Israel hates tunnels!!

Meanwhile the men are out with ambulances and picking through the rubble looking for survivors of the Israeli bombs and missiles.

That's why men die in higher numbers.

Missiles and bombs are not gender specific. Trying to make a case they are is "Not too smart."

[LuvNewcastle]

18. Thank you.

I don't give a fuck if it's mostly men who are dying. I'm a man. Is it okay to kill me?

[Bettie]

21. Are you Palestinian?

If so, then, it would seem the answer is yes, according to some.

(Not to me, but I'm not a cheerleader for Bibi and his ilk.)

[hack89]

31. Imagine if Hamas put the women and children underground instead of weapons and fighters. nt

[frylock]

33. imagine if they put women and children in a UN school setup as a shelter..

and imagine the UN warned IDF, oh say 17 times, about that shelter. further imagine IDF bombing that school, and then denying it and blaming Hamas. just imagine.

[hack89]

35. Having seen that, why does Hamas let them stay there?

how hard would it be to open the bunkers and tunnels to woman and children? The fighting has been going on for weeks now.

[frylock]

37. you want them to take shelter in the tunnels that IDF is searching for and destroying?

are you fucking shitting me?!!

[hack89]

38. You are right.

Hamas should have built shelters and not wasted the money on military infrastructure. I wonder how the people of Gaza will react when the Hamas leadership emerges from their safety of their bunkers?

[frylock]

39. riiiiiiiight. IDF would accuse them of storing munitions there..

get fucking real.

[hack89]

40. You seem pretty worked up about this

you are not usually so emotional and rude.

I think I will just move on.

[frylock]

41. really, what's to get worked up over?

it's just a couple hundred kids that had nothing to do with electing Hamas. gotta break a few eggs, amirite?

[chimpymustgo]

2. Israel is killing anything that's human in Gaza.

You better come up with a link for that level of apologia.

[oberliner]

54. No apologia

As I wrote in the OP, I complete oppose what Israel is doing. their callous disregard for civilian life is condemnable.

Here's the twitter feed (in Arabic) from the Palestinian ministry with the figures:

https://twitter.com/press221

[SoCalDem]

100. Yep, they are shooting fish in a barrel (with US-made weapons)

They are somehow divorced from their own history..they have crammed too many people into too small of a space, confined them and from time to time, simply must kill some of them.

It's not unreasonable to understand why the Palestinians are pissed off, just as it's not hard to understand the angst of how Jews were treated when they were rounded up and confined in ghettos during WWII. Perhaps the Palestinians are not "behaving", but the weaponry is definitely not equal.. Desperate people do desperate things (often not in their own long term interests).

It's just too damned bad that grown ups are not in charge.. Probably most people on both sides just want good jobs, a decent place to live and some peace & quiet.

[ann---]

3. And that makes it okay?

There is NO justification for this Slaughter of Innocents - NONE. One innocent child, woman or man who is killed is one too many.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

[oberliner]

55. In the body of the message, I repeatedly asserted that it was not OK

Not sure how you could have gotten any other impression.

[blue cat]

6. do you

Have a link?

[oberliner]

58. There's a twitter account from the Palestinian Minister of Health in Gaza

It's in Arabic:

https://twitter.com/press221

Here's the tweet from the 29th:

حصيلة الشهداء حتى اللحظة 1230 شهيد ونحو 7000 جريح، من بين الشهداء 287 طفل، 130 سيدة، و 57 مسن.

[bemildred]

8. OK, I hear you.

One of the reasons that Bibi's war is folly is that it is polarizing (and the "so be it" part). That being so, it is no surprise that the issue becomes polarized and nuance and distinctions are lost in the washed out black-and-white picture that remains. You cannot conduct a reasoned debate in the midst of a full-throat propaganda war, and that is intended by the propagandists.

[oberliner]

59. But we can try to do a reasoned debate here on DU, can't we?

It's worth a shot!

[bemildred]

60. It's better than TV in my view. nt

[NightWatcher]

9. Why in everything now, do we get the 'both sides do it and are to blame" argument?

I don't see Israel hitting schools and UN approved medical shelters as a way to blow up tunnels. Quit justifying and apologizing for Israel by using the 'both sides do it' argument. A well funded high tech military strikes a hospital and a kid throws a rock at a tank.... not the same thing. I remember pictures and videos from 20+ years ago when all the Palestinians could do was throw rocks at forwarding lines of Israeli military and people still put the rock throwing teens and fault for what was happening to them. There is no equivalency.

[Orrex]

19. Because both sides *are* to blame.

If Palestinian civilians (women, children and men) would stop dying so photogenically, then Israel would stop being guilty of their slaughter.

See?

[oberliner]

61. Neither justification nor apology presented

Israel is hitting schools as a way to blow up tunnel. They are hitting schools because they are near where rockets are being fire at them (or stored) and they don't really care whether or not civilians get killed in the process, which is absolutely condemnable.

I mean - why do you think they are hitting schools? Just for kicks?

And with respect to past terrorist actions carried out by Palestinians - I was not referencing the throwing of rocks by teenagers but rather the blowing up of civilians by suicide bombers which happened relatively frequently in the early 2000's.

[Lithos]

10. Good post

Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[oberliner]

62. Thanks

I am glad you thought so. Another respondent said it was the dumbest post in the history of DU!

[Lithos]

85. I saw that...

War sucks. The old men on both sides are all too willing to make sacrifices - particularly if it involves someone else's life.

L-

[Spazito]

11. I read your OP with interest and appreciate your stating your views on this...

It is a complex issue, not one that can be captured in simple terms. The deaths of innocent civilians be they male, female, adult or child should be condemned, imo, be they Israeli or Palestinian. Hamas should be condemned for use of suicide bombers and it's use of rockets and I have seen little, if any, support for Hamas being stated on DU.

Where you state "Many Israelis have some connection to someone who was killed in such an attack in the late 90’s early 2000s. Attacks that were cheered and celebrated by Hamas - during a time when other Israeli and Palestinian leaders were working towards peace.", I certainly believe that as I am sure Palestinians also have some connection to someone who was killed in attacks by Israel over time. Both Palestinians and Israelis grieve for their dead.

There will be no peace until there is a genuine will to have it and to have that peace concessions must be made. I believe Israel must open the borders, return the land stolen from the Palestinians and acknowledge there needs to be an autonomous State of Palestine. The Palestinians must recognize Israel's right to exist, rid themselves of Hamas and the other "resistance" organizations. Both need to treat the other as equals worthy of respect and autonomy. I am sure there are other concessions that need to be made by both sides, I am only citing some off the top of my head.

Your point "And, of course, Israel is not special in this regard. The US army has killed many many more civilians in its recent “incursions” when the threat to the US mainland was minimal (possibly non-existent). NATO airstrikes continue to destroy families, kill children, destroy homes. To say nothing of some non-Western armies and paramilitary groups around the world. Generally these do not seem to result in the same sort of passionate worldwide response as when Israel behaves similarly." is an interesting one and not one with which I disagree, at least when it comes to my thinking.

Speaking only for myself, I think I held Israel to a higher standard when it comes to the treatment of others given the history of pogroms, discrimination and the ultimate horror, the holocaust. I believed Israel would not be the aggressor, oppressor of another people because of history. I have come to the conclusion I was naive to have believed as I did. I do condemn Israel's actions in Gaza but I do it now without holding Israel to a higher standard than any other country.

Sorry this is so long but I wanted to respond to your post with the same thoughtfulness as you showed in your OP.

[oberliner]

63. Thanks for the response

I would argue, though, that it is unfair to "hold Israel to a higher standard when it comes to the treatment of others given the history of pogroms, discrimination and the ultimate horror, the holocaust".

I don't think it fair to tell people that because they are the descendants of a people who were killed in large numbers with the world doing nothing much to help them, that they have to go out of there way to be extra nice to others.

In fact, as a result of that history, I can understand why some in Israel might have an attitude of "we won't take any shit from anyone ever and screw what the world thinks about it".

I don't agree with that sentiment, personally, but I can see where it might stem from.

[Spazito]

72. Yes, the attitude you express does seem to be the attitude we are seeing...

and given that attitude, Israel should expect criticism and outrage it is receiving for it's actions as a result of that attitude. As I stated in my previous post, I am no longer naive about Israel and now judge it based on the same standards I would another country including my own.

[oberliner]

64. Clearly didn't read the body of the post

As I completely and wholeheartedly condemned what is going on in Gaza right now unreservedly. At least I meant to. If that meaning didn't come across - allow me to re-iterate here in this response.

[whatchamacallit]

71. No, you're right

I read the body after my comment. Admittedly, a lame thing to do. I think I was repulsed by the title following Netanyahu's disgusting "telegenic" statement. I'll self delete, but understand when it comes to killing, I don't accept distinctions based on age or sex any more than I accept the notion of collateral damage.

[oberliner]

91. Thanks for responding

I definitely respect where you are coming from.

[snooper2]

13. Fundies vs Fundies, except one side has much better weapons-

Even out the weapon mismatch and let them have it out one final for all over a shitty patch of desert-

Then we can be done with it and maybe it won't be an issue anymore.

[alsame]

14. And the majority of

casualties on 9/11 were adult males. Callous disregard for civilian life is terrorism no matter who the victims are.

http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. EXACTLY Most victims of 9/11 were adult males - I'm not sure that made things any better

[Harmony Blue]

15. Adult males are considered dispossable

and you don't blink as to why something is wrong with that?

[bravenak]

94. I see what you mean now.

There is something very fucking wrong with that. I have a husband, and it is not okay to kill him.

[DanTex]

17. I mostly agree, however...

There is a legitimate question of whether Bibi or some of the other right-wingers see civilian casualties in Gaza as a benefit or a cost. Clearly, if it's a cost, it's not a cost they care very much about. But it is also possible that this recent invasion of Gaza has a collective punishment aspect to it, punishing the Gaza civilians for their support of Hamas.

Of course, Likud is going to deny this, but you know, Likud isn't the most credible organization around.


Another point. While it's true that the US and other Western countries also kill civilians, on DU at least, there is near universal condemnation of these acts. I don't think there is a single DUer who thinks the Iraq War was a good idea. Most DUers think that Bush and Cheney are war criminals. If the US went around slaughtering civilians, and Dick Cheney stood up and assured us all that this was necessary for self-defense, then pretty much nobody here would take his side.

However, when it comes to Israel, there are people here defending the actions in Gaza. There are people who believe Bibi when he says that this is necessary for Israel's self-defense. So a big part of the reason you get this kind of response is that there are actually people here who defend Israel's actions.

[oberliner]

52. Fair points

Agree with everything you've written. I think, though, that there is some hyperbole on this site and elsewhere that is not based in reality.

As I mentioned in my OP, the reality of what is going on is bad enough without having to exaggerate or mis-characterize what's happening.

[Roy Serohz]

20. Link?

Source? Or just more agitprop?

[Roy Serohz]

22. Well???

[oberliner]

42. Ministry of Health in Gaza provides updated info on its Twitter Feed

It can be found here:

https://twitter.com/press221

[intaglio]

23. Even accepting the Israeli claim on this

How many of these "adult males" were in Hamas? How many were armed? How many were over 60? How many were teachers, farmers or mechanics? How many were fathers?

How do the Israelis know who what lies beneath the wreckage of homes, hospitals, farms and schools? How do the Israelis know how many have died or will die because of starvation, disease and wounds?

What is "most"? 80%? 75%? 51%?

Start thinking before you give voice to Israeli propaganda.

[oberliner]

43. These numbers come from the Palestinian side

They are tweeted out by the Ministry of Health in Gaza.

You can follow here:

https://twitter.com/press221

[intaglio]

51. Ah, would you care to translate,

I assume you read Arabic, and from these figures would you please enlighten me as to numbers and status: male, female, ages, combatant status, because unless you can do that all you are doing it voicing Israeli propaganda

[oberliner]

53. OK

Jul 29

1230martyrs (287 children, 130women, 57elderly) and more than 7000 wounded.

Original:

حصيلة الشهداء حتى اللحظة 1230 شهيد ونحو 7000 جريح، من بين الشهداء 287 طفل، 130 سيدة، و 57 مسن.

[intaglio]

82. So now we know the following

62% of the dead are male and of course no indication as to how many were actually in Hamas but given the tiny minority of those in Gaza who are actually members of Hamas most of those males will be innocent of any terrorism or war crime.

So any assertion that the majority of those killed were male is just an attempt to obfuscate. The vast majority of those killed will have had no connection to Hamas and their only crime will have been to have been members of the Palestinian community.

Your incomplete and misleading figures amount to Israeli propaganda and an attempt to whitewash war crimes.

[redqueen]

86. THIS

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. The Palestinian ministry of health has a very active twitter feed

So does the IDF by the way.

In fact, almost all departments of both governments have active twitter feeds. A few have active Facebook accounts. A few in multiple languages.

Just because the American media does not tell you things...

Due to interest, no, I don't speak Arabic, but I can do fair Hebrew, I started monitoring the Israeli media, who gasp, I know, quote the Palestinian twitter feed of the ministry of health in their live blogs. Some of them are in English. They also, in case you are curious, run English services.

Israelis know the score of what the army is doing far better than we did during Iraqi Freedom. We had to guess, they are getting the feeds straight. Given that many Israelis also speak Arabic...they can follow the feed directly.

[Chathamization]

24. UN: 82.6% of identified dead were civilians; 35.6% women and children

As of July 28 (if anyone has updated numbers, post them). Note that the total number of those killed in the report included 91 unidentified individuals who were killed. Depending on who they were, the total could be between 74.5% civilian/32.5% women and children (if all 91 were fighters) to 41% women and children/83% civilians (if they were all women and children.

[hifiguy]

25. And your point is?

[oberliner]

44. I thought I made several points in the body of the message

Attempted to at least.

[KG]

26. cool story, bro.

[LittleBlue]

27. Ah, you've changed my mind. I used to think Israel was bad

Now that I know it's just men who are dying, I totally support Israel. In fact, if they'd limit their killing to just slaughtering the old and disabled, I'd volunteer for the IDF myself.

OP, congrats on making what is surely one of the dumbest threads ever on DU.

[oberliner]

45. One of the dumbest threads ever on DU

Wow, that is really saying something.

[riverwalker]

73. I'll second that. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

103. his "men" included male children and male elderly. It was disingenuous at best.

[Maedhros]

28. It does not matter what Israel is TRYING to do.

What matters is what they ARE DOING.

[oberliner]

46. Agreed

Which is why I totally condemn what they are doing as I wrote in the body of the message.

[840high]

29. Thank you.

[madokie]

30. Somehow I doubt theres any truth to that at all

[oberliner]

47. It's coming from the Palestinian side

You can follow the tweets here:

https://twitter.com/press221

They provide daily casualty updates and totals.

[oberliner]

48. I'm not murdering anyone

And I don't think Israel deserves anything but condemnation for what they are doing, as I wrote in the body of the message.

[Scootaloo]

77. Well, at least you're making the effort on condemning the indefensible

i wouldn't say you were totally up to snuff with it, but hey, credit where credit's due i suppose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. How exactly is the OP murdering anybody?

Way, wwwwaaayyyy out of line.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Per the UN 75% of casualties have been civilians (ie, not Hamas fighters).

"Adult male" doesn't mean "Hamas". And I'm not sure how "attacks were cheered by Hamas" is any different to Israelis standing on a hillside and cheering as IDF missiles hit Gaza, or to members of the Knesset standing up and saying that the mothers of Palestinians should all be killed..these things have also happened, after all. It doesn't really help to try to paint Hamas/Palestinians as being somehow uniquely depraved.

[oberliner]

49. Not disputing that

Or anything else that you wrote here. It's all awful all the way around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. When those bombings were going off

In coffee shops and busses in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, the subject was confined to the I/P dungeon.

There was very little comentary on the general channels. And some were deleted.

It matters little that you refer to the Palestinian Ministry of Health data, which is indeed being reported and repeated in Israeli media. Israelis do know, unlike Americans during Iraqui Freedom. Yup, started monitoring it.

I know the under-vibe here. While I hope the cycle is broken and these two states find a way to live together, even recognize each other and exchange ambassadors and invest in each other's countries. (The two state solution is a de facto thing on the ground already) fact is, when Israel sneezes the world complains as to the nature of the sneeze.

Antisemitism has now taken the anti Zionist vibe and European Jews, especially French Jews, are looking at Israel and moving in numbers due to it. Time to go. I wonder how long until the environment of hate will reach that fever pitch in the US? You know, when walking out to the street wearing a kippeh will be taking your life in your hands? Yup, that is happening in Paris right now.

But yes, when busses where blown on the Haifa-Jerusalem highway, there was silence here for the most part.

Sorry for making those observations. But after your source, the Official ministry of health, was called agitprop, nothing else could be said.

Good post.

[oberliner]

68. Thanks for the response

The sad thing is I don't see the cycle being broken any time soon. I was more hopeful a year or two ago - but that hope has dwindled significantly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Neither do I

Here is the OP I posted yesterday. The only OP I will bother posting, but some good discussion did happen, with quite a bit of the same crap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025312076

Those kids will be patrolling Rafa when old enough, and bombing cafés sadly.

Part of the problem is that both sides have to stop but you killed my great, great uncle, and sit down and realize it is about those kids and their future.

There are factions on both sides that are coiled in a mutually destructive spiral.

For the record, the logic from the military side is that those young, military age males are, or will be fighters.

Yesterday's school attack, the IDF actually presented evidence (they got smart, not that it will matter and have video) they were returning mortar fire. The mortars were very close to the school. That little tidbit was mentioned in passing, like it really was unimportant, by Richard Engel.

It would matter not one bit to people here though. My husband, a military vet and I, a Red Cross/military vet, were horrified in the morning. Once that tidbit came out, we understand, that school, sadly, was no longer protected under the rules of war. That is an extremely good example of what is going on, and why the Israelis are exasperated at the UN. Not even actual video of taking fire before answering it, is enough.

My view...and it will put IDF troops at even greater risk, and they are already doing some of this. They should enter houses and blow the tunnels. They have already lost troops doing this. Not that this is being reported.

And we did far worst during the Iraq war, far, far worst...I never saw people this angry. So I must conclude some of this is antisemitism. We continue to do far worst with drones.

Hamas had children dig these things. Hundreds died, as tunnels collapsed on them. I never heard a thing here. I guess that is ok. Or the tens of thousands dead in Syria, it is only Arabs. That is the other vibe I get.

[Douglas Carpenter]

75. the difference in the figures are a tad bit lopsided, you know

Children killed in the Israel/Palestine conflict

TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:

Israelis: 131

Palestinians: 1656

TOTALS FOR 2014:

Israelis: 2

Palestinians: 137

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2014.html

If it is anti-Semitism for an Internet Forum most people have never heard of to give some attention to Palestinian suffering - then what is the behavior of the American media which reports the news like it was reading press releases from the Israeli State Department?

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. The only place where war is truly symmetrical

Is on the sand table. If you play war games that will make sense. Just in case you don't, regardless of game system, both bring the exact same points to the table, or a difference so small, it is the same.

I can play the exact same statistics game for WW 2 and US civilian casualties, vis a vis Italian, German or Japanese. Want to really be horrified? All three.

So this is not particularly a good argument insofar as the horrors of war. War should always be the absolute last choice for a reason.

Israel is causing more damage because they have the technological edge. Iron Dome is also highly frustrating to Hamas. They expected to do a lot more damage. The system actually is not that effective, and if these were beyond WW2 Katyusha level artillery rockets Hamas would do far better. I guess some folks here would root for that though. Yup, got to that conclusion a while ago. I have read some posts that are code for the destruction and genocide of Israelis. This is ok though. And that hate is at a fever pitch in places like France.

Both sides are targeting civilians. When one side does it, meh, when the other does...and I will hardly forget that.

By the way, I would prefer if literally both sides stopped this, and those kids today hunkering in homes and shelters, grew up to serve very uneventful terms in their respective armies. Hell, it be best if their children could play together while their parents realized how much they actually have in common and worked to build bridges, not Uzis and rockets.

Just some things in common.

Both Palestinians and Israelis are despised in the Middle East

Both love books, and knowledge. One has built world class research institutions. The other could as well.

Both have been used in cynical power games by more powerful parties.

Others are benefiting from these games.

At one time both Arabs and Jews had a golden age of cooperation, which is not really well known.

[Douglas Carpenter]

80. I would have to agree with the last part - except the Palestinians do not have the option of a

conventional army and even the most moderate Israeli Labor governments demanded that any future Palestinian state have no military. I can't see how that would work out with such a lop sided balance of power. But I do agree with the rest of what you said

. Hell, it be best if their children could play together while their parents realized how much they actually have in common and worked to build bridges, not Uzis and rockets.

Just some things in common.

Both Palestinians and Israelis are despised in the Middle East

Both love books, and knowledge. One has built world class research institutions. The other could as well.

Both have been used in cynical power games by more powerful parties.

Others are benefiting from these games.

At one time both Arabs and Jews had a golden age of cooperation, which is not really well known.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Israel will not have a choice

In a Palestinian army. Palestine is recognized by 134 states. Regardless of what Israel and the US want, that includes self defense under the 1933 Montevideo convention. Later the UN convention, which it will remind you, they have observer status at the general assembly, same as the Vatican. Why I said, two state, de facto it already exists.

The territories already have a pretty decent police force, which is a paramilitary organization Gaza used to until Hamas was elected.

So once final status comes, they will get an armed force. Radicals on both sides don't want that though. Israel, well...that changes the game. If you have an actual military Hamas will lose it's space and might see persecution by it's own police and military forces. Fatah was where Hamas is right now fifteen years ago.

My fear is Hamas goes, they will be replaced by something even more radical and dangerous (think Isis for example). There are forces on the ground, ironically on both sides right and far right flank, that have an interest in conflict.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Yup, there is a word on the tip of my tongue

And I will leave it at that. But anything from our news and the Israeli side is automatically suspect.

[jberryhill]

57. Seems like a function of who is out and who is sheltering

Families which are sheltering have to choose who to send out for water, food, etc..

In hazardous circumstances, they don't tend to send out women and children to do that sort of thing, so what you may be seeing is a function of who is simply there to get in harm's way.

[locks]

67. Today on CNN an Israeli spokesman said

"We can forgive Hamas for killing children but we can never forgive them for forcing US to kill children." And one of the posters today said "Israel has been forced to lower themselves to deal with Hamas." We hear this often: "She bedeviled me til I had no choice but to kill her" and from the "victim": "I just knew he wanted to kill me, so I had to kill him before could." We seldom question this logic; it is always a reason for war. And it's true that humanity has wrestled forever with the hard questions we all have regarding killing, justice, compassion, and vengeance.

The Old Testament told the believers they should love their neighbors but hate their enemies, that when they are persecuted by their brothers and sisters they should forgive them three times, then they could pay them back.

But we read in the New Testament that not only should we love our neighbors but also our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. When Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive a brother or sister who had persecuted him, as many as seven times? Jesus answered, "Seventy times seven".

OMG did he mean 490 times, that's crazy. Glad we're not Christians.

[Fozzledick]

69. For those of you who haven't studied statistics

what this implies is that roughly 20% of the casualties are from the general civilian population, and that the other 80% are from another group that includes no females.

The disparity between this and other unsubstantiated claims of a higher rate of civilian casualties may be due to the Palestinian Ministry of Health's practice of collaborating with Hamas propaganda by reporting un-uniformed guerrillas and paramilitaries as civilians, a practice that was revealed after Operation Cast Lead.

[treestar]

74. Adult males who are civilians

count. Male lives are not worth less and I see no reason to discount them.

[upaloopa]

76. Wow isn't that good news! Only 10% killed are

women and children.
I will never understand the inhumanity present here on the part of the sides in the war and on the part of those on the sidelines.
Work for peace that is the only statement we should be making in my opinion.

[snagglepuss]

79. Please cite a source. CBC news has reported UN sources say that women and

children have outweighted the number of young men killed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. He gave it to you

The Palestinian Ministry of Health, which ironically the Israeli media has been quoting as well in live blogs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. How exactly is the Palestinian ministry of health

Part of Israeli media? I am honestly confused.

Oh and here is the link.

https://mobile.twitter.com/press221

[snagglepuss]

92. I misread. I'm referring to reports that show 80 percent of the dead

are civilians.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10967279/UN-80-per-cent-of-Palestinians-killed-in-Israeli-offensive-are-civilians.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. I am cynical enough to not be willing to assign

Percentages.

And the military age males may or may not be members of Hamas. It s not a regular army with IDs

[riverwalker]

84. your numbers are wrong

Palestinian Health Information Center

http://www.moh.ps/attach/689.pdf

Up to July 30 (21:00 local time), the death toll has reached 1357
(M: 1062, F: 295) (Of which 315 children, 58 elderly), and over 7677 persons injured (M: 5154, F: 2523) (Of which 2307 children, 287 elderly), according to the Palestinian Health Information Center in Gaza

(Male 1062
Female 295
of these
315 children
58 elderly)
so the female, children and elderly= 668. That leaves 689 adult males.
(of course these are numbers from people who have to pick up the body parts off the ground and try to bury them while avoiding drone strikes. I'm sure they know less than you do)

[oberliner]

89. Those are the same numbers

The numbers you provide indicate that the majority of those killed were adult males.

That source is the same one I referenced in the replies.

[oberliner]

90. I think I see where you made your calculation error

Of the 1357 deaths, 1062 were males and 295 were females. Those totals include male/female children and elderly (since those two numbers add up to 1357). So when you added the 295 to 315 and 58 you were double counting some of the figures to get to your 668 figure. The 295 female already includes female children and elderly. Make sense?

[countryjake]

95. Thanks for your thoughtful post, oberliner.

While I don't quite agree that it's not a sadistic quest, and I mean when any independent state's military indiscriminately blitzes an area packed with innocents (including our own government), I do appreciate hearing your views of this latest bombardment of Occupied Palestine. I wholeheartedly agree that some of what's been popping up on DU is totally unnecessary (the reality is too horrific as it is) and I even think that some of it is wholly repugnant. That is a shame for our community of DU.

Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions
Free Palestine!

[oberliner]

96. You're welcome

You've been a member since 2004? Have you ever posted in the I/P forum?

[countryjake]

101. Actually, I've been a member in good-standing since early 2001...

before there ever was an I/P Forum, always been more of a reader than a commenter.

I do often read in there, just to check if others are aware whenever I hear significant news from the region.

[HooptieWagon]

102. 2/3 of deaths are women and children, per UN.

Given a choice of believing the UN or Likud propagandists, I'll pick the UN.

[oberliner]

105. That is not true

If you can provide a UN source stating that 2/3rds of the deaths are women and children, please do so.

I am confident that you can't.

[Violet_Crumble]

104. I agree with the body of yr post, and I do admire you for taking the time to make it clear...

I was in the I/P forum when the suicide bombings were happening and remember the frustration at being labelled an apologist for Hamas etc when I'd made it clear that there was no justification for those killings of Israeli civilians. So, having read some of the responses in this thread, I feel for you. Even after making it clear that you condemn what Israeli is doing right now, you've been called an apologist. I kind of suspect that some people only read the title of an OP and react to that, which explains some of the reactions you got. If I'd been someone who only read the OP, I'd be pointing out that over 80% of casualties are civilian, an astronomically high proportion. But I get the point you were trying to make, which was one I agree with, that Israel isn't deliberately trying to kill Palestinian civilians, they just don't care, or the 'so be it' thing....

[oberliner]

106. Thanks

Appreciate this response.