I am going to take my leave from DU for a time:

[PCIntern]

Many of you will shout, "Hurrah", since you despise my pro-Israel stand that Hamas must be rooted out and destroyed. Nothing you may say will change my attitude in this regard and nothing I may say will certainly change yours.

However, I am not acting for that reason at all whatsoever. There are two distinct attitudes here which are, in my opinion, reprehensible. The first is the constant juxtaposition of Israel with the Nazi Movement and their behaviors. I have many angry feelings which I cannot express here due to the nature of those who alert at the first sign of a so-called breach of the rules here at DU. It has become impermissible to discuss any higher-order political philosophy without this occurring as a result. Those of us who have been attempting to do this are being continuously goaded into vituperative arguments which almost invariably lead to a "crossing of the line" such that a Jury will lock the post and thus place one more black mark upon the poster's ability to remain and function. This is deliberate, vindictive, and as far as I am concerned, absolutely derived from RW techniques for disruption, denigration, and elimination of rational discussion. Further, I believe that this manner of posting has grotesquely undermined the stability of this site and may cause many long-term people to abandon it for this issue as well as several others. It is, or rather, was, insidious in its evolution but is now moving ahead as the political season approaches.

Second, and more importantly, this has become an outlet for some of the worst anti-Semitism I have seen in many years. The code-words, the hatred spewing towards established members, the rank dismissal and disgust with which opinions are met rivals any forum with which I have had contact for the 45+ years in which I have been active in Jewish causes. Like pornography, I know it when I see it. The taunting of many to specifically accuse someone of anti-Semitism is an invitation to having a post locked or even Tombstoning and since I have been here for more than ten years, I am not at this time willing to have my posting privileges revoked over this issue here, since it is not a discussion but has metamorphosed into an entity of which I am not proud any longer to be a member. There are many people who agree with me who decline to post during these difficult times in Israel for exactly these reasons - and this is nothing new. I value the Forum for its values during the election seasons and during domestic crises, but will not subscribe to this aspect of its nature and will refrain from posting until such time as I believe that it is constructive to do so.

[msanthrope]

1. Take a break and don't forget us. Be well, and know that your opinion will be missed. nt

[calimary]

171. Indeed! Please don't be gone too long.

We need you, PCIntern. What msanthrope says!

[Behind the Aegis]

2. I hope you reconsider, but I do understand.

Apparently, when the "posting of I/P is not allowed in GD" was suspended because of the "big news event" caveat, which is not unusual, the TOS/CS was also seemingly suspended. Godwin's Law only applies to everyone else.

[treestar]

3. Nobody has that opinion

They just don't think it must involve overkill that involves killing so many civilians. Sorry you are unable to brook opposition and must mischaracterize it.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Several posts contradict your claim.

There have been SEVERAL "Jews/Israel/Zionists are Nazis" posts, and as for anti-Semitism; well, one has to know what it actually is before saying it doesn't exist.

[Rhinodawg]

68. Excuse me...it's not the just the posters...it's the jurors

See juror #3

On Sun Jul 27, 2014, 03:32 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Weird. It isn't Jews who are being massacred in the hundreds.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=856484

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

personal attack.

A Jury of DU members reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 27, 2014, 03:45 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's Zionists who are intent on genocide and land grabbing. The term they use is "mowing the lawn" not much different from the Nazis. Just missing ovens.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Way over the top
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[MADem]

228. FWIW, it's possible to alert on jury results.

You can do so and let admins note the comments for appropriate review and/or future action.

[oberliner]

232. "not much different from the Nazis. Just missing ovens. "

Wow - I wonder who that Juror # 3 was who wrote that.

[Rhinodawg]

234. You seem surprised ?

Obviously I don't think it's allowed to say....if I knew....which I don't...of course.

[boston bean]

9. It is not a mischaracterization. I haven't been posting

but I've been reading. Many posts have crossed the line and I've served on some juries.

One poster who has been here a very long time wants Israel destroyed. Others referring to "the jews". Also, the Nazi comparisons are beyond the pale.

I've seen enough of it. I know you can't see what you didn't see, but it's here.

[JustAnotherGen]

50. I agree boston

I'm seeing the language and hyperbole. I sent a pm last weekend to behind the aegis because he knows my "heritage". It's the early 1990's and I'm at a Louis Farrakhan speech for my college newspaper all over again. Comments about the Jewish media and Nazi comparisons are not necessary to disagree with Israel's actions.

Israel's and Hamas (I don't believe this is the average Palestinian) actions can stand on their own in the modern day. Recycled nonsense about global Jewish conspiracies . . . Those who argue from that place lose me.

ETA - and providing links and such won't change their minds. They hold onto that "language" the same way some folks hold onto the words "coloreds" and "broads".

[treestar]

97. I read it as people hating someone for thinking Hamas must be destroyed

There's always this accusation of supporting Hamas if you criticize what Israel is doing now.

The first sentence derailed me on that.

[IronGate]

133. I know who you're referring to and, IMO, that poster should've been banned. nt.

[pnwmom]

21. That's not true. The worst of the posts get alerted on and removed.

But they do occur, and they're hurtful. I've seen one of the Nazi posts just in the last day or two.

[Agschmid]

107. Even some bans due to anti-semitism.

[pecwae]

24. You're wrong. nt

[WinkyDink]

37. Thanks for the satire!

[nomorenomore08]

49. I *deplore* the killing of civilians in Gaza. And I'm not especially "pro-Israel" in general.

But even I have been bothered by the tone of certain posts around here. Anyone who blames "the Jews" - as a nebulous collective entity - for Israeli government policy, has some issues with anti-Semitism they need to address.

[Squinch]

55. I've been staying out of it, but I agree with you on all points. I am not supportive of this action

at all. That being said, I get a chill when I read some of the things that have been posted here.

[nomorenomore08]

59. You've got folks who seem to think Arabs are semi-human savages, and folks who seem to think of Jews

as 'Elders of Zion'-type scheming, conniving caricatures. Neither stance is remotely progressive in any sense, needless to say.

[Squinch]

63. It's why I stay out. There is a lot of irrationality on both sides.

I am of Irish descent and grew up during the most recent "Troubles." I understand that there is no way to convince certain members of either side of the humanity of the other side in these thousand-year-old wars. It boggles the mind when you try to come up with a solution in the face of that.

[Surya Gayatri]

74. Well said...!

Not remotely progressive, let alone humanist.

[etherealtruth]

158. Without doubt

Many of the conversations carry that tone .... it is very disturbing

[freshwest]

161. +100!

[Gormy Cuss]

72. ^^^This.

Blaming "the Jews" is straight up anti-Semitic.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

116. horseshit...

read around some of these threads... it is disgusting.

sP

[840high]

126. You are wrong.

[William769]

147. As someone who serves on MIRT.

I can assure you, you are wrong. The bans say otherwise.

[joshcryer]

173. There have been a half dozen Warshaw ghetto posts.

Some have had hundreds of recs.

[Hekate]

212. Sorry treestar, PCI is actually right, as awful as it is to see it here. nt

[steve2470]

4. I'm with you about the Nazi comparisons

I loathe the Nazis and neo-Nazis. To even remotely compare the current situation with the Nazis is.... well.... it's not ok in my book. Be well and come back soon.

[onehandle]

6. Peace.

And go enjoy some peace of your own.

I avoid I/P discussions for all kinds or reasons, but mostly because it gives embedded disrupters a choice opportunity to stir up trouble amongst us.

No I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that a certain percentage of this is trollage.

[amuse bouche]

7. Being for peace and against 'destroying' other humans is not anti-semitism

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Is this anti-Semitism?

No, Israel has been run for most of its history by very conservative Jews who, quite honestly, want to do to the Palestinians or maybe even all the Arabs, what Hitler tried to do to them. They claim that is not the case but it is.

I have no time for Israel. I want it dismantled and the Jews sent somewhere but here. Israel is dead to me.

Like Billy McKinney said...It's the damn Jews!..sorry, but it's the truth.

[nomorenomore08]

52. Considering some 2/3's of the Jews in Europe were wiped out, "tried" is an odd choice of words.

And the idea of "dismantling" Israel is about as realistic as white Americans repatriating en masse to Europe.

No shit it's anti-Semitism. Anyone who doesn't see that has serious issues.

[Crunchy Frog]

100. Thanknfully, that post was hidden

as well it should have been. I wish they would consider banning people who make posts like that (as well as similar ones about Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians).

[nomorenomore08]

179. Me too. It's really no different from posting racial slurs or similar hate speech. n/t

[countryjake]

221. That poster has been PPRed, now.

Skinner reviewed their posting history first, but that one is now gone.

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=145328&sub=trans

[Crunchy Frog]

222. Very glad to see that.

Posters displaying that kind of bigotry towards any group should be PPRed.

[kelliekat44]

11. Obviously it is to some. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

12. And obviously, some don't know it when they see it. n/t

[IronGate]

135. Or deny it even though in their hearts, they know it's anti-Semitic.

[nomorenomore08]

54. Blaming "the Jews" as an entire people for Israeli gov't policy isn't anti-Semitic?

In what bizarro universe?

And for the record, I think what's happening in Gaza is horrific and rises to the level of war crimes. So there.

[WinkyDink]

39. Tell that to Al Fatah, Hezbollah, Hamas---and their dead victims on planes, in schools, in discos,

in airports and train stations, on streetcars, around the world.

IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES.

GMA*B.

[nomorenomore08]

180. Two wrongs don't make a right, though. Just saying. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

8. I, too, find the endless, reflexive Nazi comparisons, allusions and analogies ....reprehensible.

I understand where you're coming from, and wish you well.

Will see you when you come back.

[another_liberal]

13. Yeah . . .

It's just too damn bad the IDF continues to commit atrocities which inspire such comparisons. Isn't it?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. It's too bad they aren't Russians.

Then it would be hunky-dory!

[another_liberal]

15. That isn't true . . .

And I think you know it isn't, so why take such a flippant attitude on an issue concerning the most basic of human rights?

[Warren DeMontague]

17. cmon fight fight i need a fight i came into this thread promised i could get a fight

gimme a fight gimme gimme gimme gimme a fight gimmeeeeeeeeeee!!! I waNNNNNNNNNNNT ONE

[another_liberal]

20. Fighting just for the sake of fighting?

That hardly suggests itself as an enterprise worthy of one's time.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Cmon, if you want to throw personal insults at me, I'm sure you can do better than that.

Or can you?

Maybe you can't.

In which case, you have my sympathy. Really. It must be tough.


Anyway I made one point in this thread, which was that the endless Nazi comparisons are over the top and reprehensible. If you need to find an IDF defender to spin your wheels against, look elsewhere.

[another_liberal]

28. Pardon me . . .

Exactly what "insult" do you imagine I tried to make?

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Forget it.

Your last sentence could have been read a couple different ways.

Bottom line is, the OP is leaving DU for a while over this, he's stated pretty flat-out he's not going to change anyone's mind nor is his going to be changed. Maybe this thread isn't the best place to argue over the actual thing?

Last time I looked there were several other I/P threads in GD.

One can not support Likud or the Israeli actions as they currently stand, and still think the Nazi comparisons are over the top and reprehensible. Because they are.

It's also perfectly possible to vocally oppose what Israel is doing in Gaza, effectively even, without having to reflexively fall back on those comparisons and allusions. They don't, actually, help the argument.

YMMV.

[another_liberal]

43. My last sentence?

Consider it removed.

Very few people alive today have personal experience of the horrors Nazism brought to Europe and the World in general. To most of us their crimes are the stuff of old news reels and Hollywood costume dramas. Hitler and his butchers are, however, a real and enduring example of the depravity to which the human race can sink.

I agree we reach for that example far too often as a way of communicating our disgust with contemporary outrages. On the other hand, it is also true that for a self-identified "Jewish State" to allow its own actions to become so depraved as to elicit such comparisons is certainly notable. One can not honestly say otherwise.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. It's a mess.

I had family- distant relatives, the ones without the restless explorer gene- who died in those camps. So I take Nazi comparisons seriously.

And when I hear "never again" I don't take it to mean a specific group of people- it's all people. I don't, actually, support what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. But I also don't think they should be expected to sit there and take regular rocket attacks as some form of "privilege checking", as someone tried to argue a few weeks ago.

I also think one salient fact which eludes discussions here at DU is that it is the closed border between Gaza and Egypt which is, in many ways, one of the big sources of Gaza's current difficulties.

I don't know what the answer is, it's a fucked up situation, but there are more players and factors than just Israel up and deciding one day to mess with Gaza. I do think Netanyahu has taken advantage of the situation to use the military to try to maintain what is ultimately a totally unmaintainable status quo.

As I've said elsewhere, I know some people on the Israeli left. They were optimistic in the 90s. Not so much, now.

It is depressing.

[another_liberal]

56. The Israeli Prime Minister is just buying a few more years . . .

He is doing so with the blood of many innocent people, people whose deaths will be a guilt the next generation of Israelis will find a far heavier burden to bear than it currently seems to be for Mr. Netanyahu. Fear the fate of that next generation, because military dominance is one of the most changeable and fleeting things in human history. Israel will not be militarily unassailable forever.

Or, as someone once said: Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. I don't think it's a good plan either.

And I use the word "plan" ironically.

[nomorenomore08]

57. Depressing as hell all around. I completely agree with you.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. my cat's breath smells like cat food.

or it would, if I had a cat.

[another_liberal]

26. My cat . . .

Just so you know: My cat can kick your cat's butt every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. So there.

(sarcasm implied)

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Sure, because I don't have one.

When I did, he got his ass kicked regularly. But he could destroy just about anything by barfing on it.

[another_liberal]

30. My cat . . .

I do not lie when I tell you, my cat throws up everything she eats, and still gains weight. She's powerful magic.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Heh.

I know what you mean. I don't understand it, either.

[Crunchy Frog]

223. Yes. Just like this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5326325

[barbtries]

16. on the other hand

PCIntern, i have not posted in any of the threads for fear of being labeled an anti-semite because i deplore what Israel is doing in Gaza. technically i am a jew, my children are jewish, my ex-husband was born in Israel. i do not believe that i am an anti-semite; i believe that it is wrong to kill people so indiscriminately (actually my belief is simply that people should not kill people). that there should be a way to achieve peace and that that way will inevitably involve some giving on the part of Israel (for instance some land seized in violation of treaties). the people of Gaza have no where to go; for israel it's like shooting fish in a barrel, except it's people, and they're killing them at a horrific rate. a solution is imperative and Israel needs to be part of it.

they have to find a way to be friends though i despair that the day will ever come. endless war is not the answer.

by the way i have to say that i am only technically jewish because a, ethnically i am a WASP (converted when i married), and b, i don't claim any religion. religion sucks imo, pretty much across the board. it's good at ritual; i've considered trying out a universalist church for the comfort of ritualized community (i hear they welcome atheists and that would be me). but even if i returned and practiced judaism fervently i would still deplore the warmongering in the middle east.

well i wish you weren't breaking from DU right now so i could know if what i have written here seems reasonable, or anti-semitic to you. what a terrible and sad state the world is in right now.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. The fact that the dude can't even post a thread signing off for a while

without people falling all over it going WHERE ARE THE ISRAEL DEFENDERS WITH WHICH I CAN HAVE A FIGHT?!?!?!?!?!?!

pretty much sums up the uselessness of the "debate" as it stands, on DU right now.

FWIW, I don't agree with what Israel is doing right now, either. My only point was that I agree that the endless Nazi comparisons are reprehensible.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. The dude recently accused both me and Cali of being Hamas supporters...

The 'goading' was that we dared to be opposed to what Israel's doing to Gaza. Both of us had spoken out against Nazi comparisons and claims that it's genocide, but that didn't stop them...

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Sorry. ..that's OTT.

And not cool to either of you.

Thanks for the additional background, VC.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Yeah, it wasn't cool at all...

But the bigger point being made in this thread that there's a lot of Nazi comparisons going on is very true. I think it's a mixture of trolls, anti-Semitic types, and some long-time DUers who should know better who are being caught up in a 'What's The Worst Thing I Can Accuse Something I Disagree With Of Being?....I KNOW! HITLER!'. The problem is some of the latter don't seem to be listening when it gets explained to them why it's insensitive. I get that people get upset when they see a large loss of civilian life coz it upsets me too, but I wish they'd stop and think for a microsecond, coz that's all it takes to realise why it's an ugly thing to aim at Israel and Israelis

[Warren DeMontague]

51. It doesn't help, that's for sure.

And I understand people are upset. I'm upset.

I suppose if there's any chance for a silver lining it might be that it would prod the players and power brokers in the region to realize that "more of the same" isn't working.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Damn optomist!

I suppose if there's any chance for a silver lining it might be that it would prod the players and power brokers in the region to realize that "more of the same" isn't working.

The region reminds me of a really violent and bloody version of Groundhog Day. It's like the leaders have incredibly short memories and keep on doing the same thing over and over even though the time they did it before it didn't work.

I'm halfway through reading a really good article that deals with this stuff that one of the I/P regulars posted in GD courtesy of my good mate bemildred. I'd be a very happy camper if this was what the majority of I/P related OPs in GD were like, not like the ones I've taken to glancing at, going 'ewww' and moving on....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025325180

[barbtries]

143. the players and power brokers are getting very rich from more of the same.

so i have little hope.

[Scootaloo]

157. It's a pretty common tack, sadly

This approach of throwing the most vile, hateful, deceitful invective at people like Violet_Crumble, or whoever, eternally accusing people of hating Jews for not supporting the latest paroxysm of violence against Palestine. insisting that we all love "piles of dead Jews" if we're not supporting Israel "to the hilt" on everything it does... Are the first in line to proclaim themselves the greatest, most burdened victims of all of DU's history, when the tide turns against their bullshit.

I just wish the poster on this thread who referred to Violet as "Violent_C*nt" off-site and cheered for violence against pro-palestinian demonstrators - including celebrating Rachel Corrie's death as "International Pancake Day" - would take the path of PCIntern and fuck off.

There are problems with the discussion on DU, absolutely - I'm with Violet and Cali and many other trying to get people to calm their shit and use some fucking brains. But no, DU is not an "antisemitism hotspot," it is not "just like Stormfront," or any of the other shit these creeps are claiming. And a great many of them are themselves some of the most vile, most thoughtless, racist, hateful, even violent people DU has to offer.

So yeah. There's a bit of fixing-up that can be done. But not under these cretin's say-so or guidance, because I guarantee, set to their standards, DU will become like Stormfront.

[Puglover]

174. Aw someone didn't like your post.

Jury didn't agree however.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Completely virulent, disgusting exaggerated insult from start to finish. This is one of the nastiest posts I have seen around here in a long time. This kind of hate-ridden hyperbole needs to stop. Wow.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:39 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Please allow me to take a moment to thank Scootaloo for speaking out against and deceit of this blindly hateful, racist and dishonest poster. Thank you Scootaloo!! You have courage and character!!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Agree with the post totally. The alerter not so much. At all in fact. Moronic alert.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think this post is exposing the hate. Sunshine, disinfectant and all. Neither side has the high road here.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Douglas Carpenter]

175. here is the alert on you Scoots

Automated Message

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message



On Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:30 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's a pretty common tack, sadly
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5327621

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Completely virulent, disgusting exaggerated insult from start to finish. This is one of the nastiest posts I have seen around here in a long time. This kind of hate-ridden hyperbole needs to stop. Wow.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:39 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Please allow me to take a moment to thank Scootaloo for speaking out against and deceit of this blindly hateful, racist and dishonest poster. Thank you Scootaloo!! You have courage and character!!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Agree with the post totally. The alerter not so much. At all in fact. Moronic alert.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think this post is exposing the hate. Sunshine, disinfectant and all. Neither side has the high road here.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Warren DeMontague]

184. I dont think any group on DU has a monopoly on hyperbolic bs.

calling VC a hamas supporter is out of line, as are the nazi analogies, as she stated.

I'm familiar with how Israel discussions play out in groups on the left, including a good deal of predictable misinformation, misunderstanding, and historical inaccuracies, so i mostly don't bother, because it is pointless... Plus, the problem isn't going to be resolved by people arguing over the internet.

FWIW, I dont think DU is "as bad as stormfront" nor do I think it is some crazy locus of anti-semitism. But, then, I also don't think DU is full of MRAs and misogynists simply because not everyone here has a Jupiter-sized beef with the sports illustrated swimsuit issue.

Like i said, no one has a monopoly on hyperbole.

[barbtries]

38. i agree as well.

i don't want a fight. i don't want any more WAR.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I knew some people in the Israeli left in the 90s. They were pretty optimistic about a deal,

a resolution.

One can go back and forth with blame as to what happened with that, but it's pretty safe to say the bottom line is the optimism among peace-minded people on both sides has diminished, and been replaced in large part by cynicism and despair.

My gut feeling is that a great deal of what Netanyahu is trying to do here has to do with maintaining the status quo. But I don't see how any reasonable person on any side can consider the status quo maintainable.

[tridim]

104. Debate isn't possible when the subject matter is completely irrational.

Everything about this conflict is irrational, both sides.

I refuse to participate in any debate on the issue, but will not be leaving DU.

[freshwest]

162. +1

[boston bean]

29. The poster gave specific examples of what he felt was at issue.

You don't speak to those, yet feel that somehow you need to stay out because you may be accused of anti-Semitism. And then ask if what you wrote is anti-Semitic....

Can you speak to the examples?

I deplore the violence as well, but do you not agree that what he speaks to is problematic?

Here's some of what I have seen:

1) Jews controlling US media
2) Nazi comparisons
3) posts referencing "the jews"
4) calls for the destruction of Israel

And no, I am not making it up. It's out there everywhere, here on DU and other places as well.

[barbtries]

34. yes i do.

and i agree there is a lot of it - disgusting. it seems comparable to how a black man becoming president brought the racists into the open. but then not really, because imo obama's election was a good thing...shit.
yes, i deplore anti-semitism as well as reckless warmongering. it just seems so easy for so many to slip into that it is shocking and very discouraging. just too much fucking hate all simmering around and popping up like boiling liquid.

imagine no religion...john lennon
can't we all just get along? rodney king

[LittleBlue]

144. Here is a specific example I think is an issue

how many missiles shoudl israel allow hamas to launch

100? 200? 1000?

maybe israel should just go in and level the gaza strip. flatten every house and force the palastinians to leave. at least them israel wont face rocket attacks and the palestinians wont be killed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=856619


There are 3 people on the jury who supported his ability to call for ethnic cleansing. On DU. Ethnic cleansing on DU.

Do you find this "problematic"?

[WinkyDink]

40. Show me where you deplore the rocket-launching of Hamas.

[barbtries]

45. i deplore the rocket launching of Hamas

though at this point in time it appears more justified than the overkill by Israel. if you were Hamas what would you do?
What do you want Hamas to do?

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Honestly? First, they should stop firing the rockets. Hear me out.

I don't mean that in a "they're wrong/Israel's right, so they should stop" sense. At this point it doesn't matter "who started it", although it is pretty clear that the rocket attacks have been going on fairly continuously since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005.

What I mean is, if Hamas wants a military fight, the simple fact of the matter is, they're massively outmatched by the IDF. Again, that's not a moral judgment or "who's better". It's a simple statement of fact. And often people will justify the rocket fire, or otherwise minimize it, by pointing out how ineffective it is.

So what's the point of it? Honestly? Really? What good does it do, unless the entire purpose is to provoke an Israeli response?

So they should stop firing the rockets. Firing the rockets is not achieving anything positive for anyone. Then they should work on repairing their relationship with the people who run Egypt, because the closed border and tensions there are a big unspoken part of what is making life in Gaza more difficult than it needs to be.

I suspect if Hamas started acting rationally in those ways there would be INCREDIBLE pressure on Israel to back all the way off, and also help-along with the international community-start to rebuild the damage down there.

[barbtries]

69. thank you for your reasonable response.

if they quit, will Israel stop too? i could totally get behind that.
i just went and ranted at my son because i regret even posting anything - the arguments are all so circular. in that part of the world all of the children are being brought up on hate. if they could just somehow relinquish the hate then...peace might be possible.
isn't almost everyone in the world as weary of war as i am?

the children don't come by their hate naturally. it happens here too just doesn't end up being so deadly as frequently. what is it about human nature that says we have to have someone somewhere to be better than? to be more worthy than? i don't believe that! we are all worthy. put two children in a room and they will not gravitate toward hating each other - even if one is dark and one is light, or one celebrates christmas and one celebrates ramadan, or pesach. they will naturally want to play together. they will not naturally want to kill each other.

again, thank you for being reasonable and respectful. it is too rare in this discussion.

[Warren DeMontague]

185. I usually stay out of it.

I have trouble with the Nazi stuff because, like I said, i had family in those camps.

I've been to Yad Vashem and seen the shoe. So when someone posts an OP piece like they did yesterday, snarking off about "70 years of black and white photos in every western city to justify...." I get a little pissed, and i try extra hard these days NOT to let DU piss me off.

But I am frankly befuddled by what the Israeli right thinks it is going to achieve- really the plan seems to be not have a plan, to do everything to avoid having an actual plan.

I dont think Likud OR Hamas are acting like grown-ups, right now.

[barbtries]

189. my mother-in-law was a victim.

most of her family murdered. she has the numbers on her arm. she told me how her sisters and her would squeeze each others' cheeks to try and put color into them before the daily culling of the barracks, because the sickly and weak were taken out and gassed. her own children could never talk with her about her experience, but i found her quite willing to talk to me, and even though we never really got along, i always felt a little good about giving her the opportunity to let some of that go. she couldn't have enough food in the house. i think it's because she truly knew hunger in a way the vast majority of americans never have.
she survived and made it to israel and married and had a family. i don't know that she ever achieved happiness but she did live a life.

i just wish - it feels like a vacant wish - that the people in this conflict, all of them, could regard each other as people just like them. to stop hating, then maybe they could stop this incessant murdering of each other. it just does not appear likely so this goes on and on and on. and it's wrong.

[TorchTheWitch]

109. stop being terrorists

And stop using much needed funds to take care of the Palestinian people and spending it on tunnels to get into Israel to bomb it. And stop using the Palestinian people particularly women and children as human shields. And most importantly, toss out their charter that declares their purpose is for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of all Jews. But that would defeat the entire PURPOSE of Hamas.

Hamas was formed in 1987 purposely as a terrorist organization. The founder's own son admits it - they are terrorists and proud of it. And what does it say about the Palestinian people that they ELECTED this terrorist organization to govern the Palestinians in Gaza?

For more decades than most of us have even been alive various terrorist organizations with the same NAZI mindset concerning Jews and Israel as Hamas have been bombing the shit out of Israel specifically targeting civilians... buses, pubs, schools, malls, restaurants - the more crowded with civilians especially women and children the more they WANT to and DO blow them up. Until 9/11 what we knew of terrorism was what Israel has endured from the moment it was formed. The very word "terrorism" MEANT bus loads of Israeli citizens and school children and pub goers, and mall shoppers, etc.

Hamas does not WANT peace. You want peace in Gaza? Then quit siding with Hamas and the people that elected this terrorist organization who doesn't want peace but wants the destruction of Israel and the extermination of all Jews and uses it's own citizens as human shields and the funds needed to take care of the Palestinian people for those people rather than in constructing tunnels into Israel to continue to bomb this country they want to destroy and all Jews dead.

What do we want Hamas to DO??? God almighty.

[Violet_Crumble]

122. I'm curious. What does that say about the Palestinian people? n/t

[barbtries]

138. ok god almighty.

and then what? will there be a just solution for the palestinians? will israel engage for a peaceful solution? is there anything israel should do to end the terrorism dealt by Hamas? if the people of gaza had autonomy and opportunities for a decent peaceful life would there be a hamas?

i am siding with the innocents. "quit siding with Hamas" is such an easy thing to throw at a person who IS interested in peace. quit pretending that israel is blameless and has never committed a wrongful act in this part of the world.

you know what i really think more and more? who is arming these people? THEY are the ones who don't want peace. the people getting rich, richer and richest from endless fucking war.

whatever. "quit siding with hamas" - a nice little way to avoid a real discussion. there are too two sides to this story.

[defacto7]

217. ^ this ^

"who is arming these people? THEY are the ones who don't want peace."

That's the real point of it. Most of the discussions here are caught on the surface and don't see the real enemy. There is no political or military answer to the Middle East issues. It's the ideologies that are the enemy. It's the corporate war machine that undermines peace. Name calling is idiotic and nonsensical; it has nothing to do with the root nature of ancient Middle East hatreds. Those hatreds are based on those ancient systems that thrive on war and destruction and the name calling is a childish tool to create or relieve prejudice.

There is nothing of politics that has ever been able to topple the ideology monster. If people don't deal with the problems of the heart and mind... it keeps going round and round.

[malaise]

141. Excellent post n/t

[barbtries]

142. thank you malaise.

i wish i hadn't, though. sigh.

[onenote]

22. I understand. I've been on the verge of a similar decision.

Too many posts (and posters) that seem to represent hate driven by ignorance, or ignorance driven by hate.

[brer cat]

25. I value your opinions, PCIntern.

You will be missed, and I hope you will rejoin us soon.

I do understand your reasons for taking a break...I think many of us have to do that from time to time.

[WinkyDink]

35. I applaud you, PCIntern.

[littlemissmartypants]

41. All the best to you, PCIntern.

We will be right here waiting for you.

Love, Peace and Shelter.
Littlemissmartypants

[CTyankee]

42. Oh,PC, sorry to hear it. But it sounds like you put it into perspective.

At the end of the day, DU is a website, a useful tool, as you say, during elections and should be viewed that way. A useful tool. And since posters are not identified, they can be irresponsible. It's important to remember that.

I, too, find the taunting dismaying but mostly childish and irresponsible. But I also have to shrug and say "what did you expect?" to myself.

Like you, I find the anti-semitism here to be disappointing. Any bigotry is on a progressive website. But I am an adult and realize, as you do, that I have only so much control over what goes on here and beyond that, I cannot really care all that much. Too many life experiences in my real existence to deal with!

Altho I am not Jewish, members of my family are and we share a common bond. I have been honored to stand at the bima and offer prayers for peace at my granddaughter's bat mitzvah, and take part in my stepdaughter's ordination as a Reform rabbi. These experiences are part of me now and can never be erased. Not here, certainly, and also not anywhere.

I have great affection for some of the DUers here. They are my allies and my friends. I'm sure you do too. Remember them as you move on. It makes me feel good to know that and you will feel better about that, too.

[RandiFan1290]

48. Bye

I'm glad DU isn't allowing the anti-Semite accusations to stand.

Signed, an accused
Anti-Semitic/Castro/Saddam/Al-Qaeda/Osama/Gaddafi/Putin/Hamas/Hitler
"Lover"

[JustAnotherGen]

53. I'm not shouting Hurrah

Do what you gotta do. Between racial prejudice that popped up with the Trayvon Martin trial, gun humping, and sexists at DU - now this . . . I don't blame you.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. You missed one...

Islamophobia. Also, a technical point. Gun-humping isn't bigotry...

[JustAnotherGen]

61. It may not be bigotry

But it disgusts me - and me being disgusted by it is not up for debate.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Yeah, you only missed one because all the Straights agree that homophobia is very acceptable

In fact, criticism of hateful bigotry and even laws calling for execution of gay people is just 'pinkwashing'. This is a term I read on DU, a filthy, hateful term, which stood and probably still stands.

[Violet_Crumble]

94. Huh? I wasn't the one making the list. Go complain to the person who did n/t

[barbtries]

146. wow - glad i missed that thread.

please don't say "all the straights" - i am an ally. enough to be shocked by your post. homophobia is NOT acceptable. it's not every single one of us, i swear. we need to be united to gain equality for all of us.

[m-lekktor]

177. wow do you ever get the meaning of the term pinkwashing wrong.

it is a term originating with GAY leftists (NOT STRAIGHT HOMOPHOBES) and a commonly used term amongst leftist gay academics and activists. essentially pinkwashing is cutting a country slack because of it's pro gay rights laws when it is behaving badly in other ways. many gays are blindly supporting Israel because it is progay and ignoring its horrific behavior towards the palestinians just because it is pro gay. THAT is pinkwashing and selfish, imo. anyway I can sense it would probably be a waste of time trying to explain to you but if you have good comprehension skills and know how to google you can learn what it actually is. holy CRAP you couldn't have gotten the meaning of a concept more wrong than you have, an inside out distortion . good fucking lord.

[Eleanors38]

139. Is that the hate toward "gun-humpers," or the act...

of "gun-humping," which is not clearly defined? There's a lot of penis talk as well, which I take to be another form of "cropping up" of division and hatred.

[freshwest]

167. For that reason, many have and are taking breaks. Or using Ignore, which some people despise others

for doing. Some of us are so damn *intolerant* of being abused.

Guess it's better than replying, *Die, Troll, Die!*

I freely admit I'm not as good as a person as Obama.

I will miss PCIntern regaling us with his stories of trying to enlighten brain dead conservatives.

[sufrommich]

64. It's been horrific to watch and sickening.

There was a good article at HuffPo about this and it's so spot on:

"Internalized anti-Semitism encourages ferocious rage against Israel and Israelis, a level of rage expressed against no other people. It permits the viewing of Israel as uniquely racist and oppressive and evil, instead of being seen as ordinary or all too human. Even what I would call "soft" or "positive" anti-Semitism encourages double standards and unfairly heightened expectations for Israel which faces extraordinary challenges from an enemy lacking morality.

Internalized anti-Semitism also makes it easy for people to believe numerous fantastic modern day Blood Libels about Israel, such as the charge I have seen repeatedly (against all evidence) that Israel is committing genocide. This is no different than when people actually believed that Jews murdered God in the form of Jesus, drank the blood of Christian children, and caused the bubonic plague. Anti-Zionist movements have made this further acceptable by attempting to intellectually separate Jews outside of Israel from those within Israel, in effect saying it's okay to hate these Jews over here or Jews who support them, i.e. Zionists. At a minimum, to repeat such modern Blood Libels as gospel truth is to recklessly support those calling for the genocide of the Jews, for who is more worthy of killing than a people who is "guilty" of committing genocide.

Empathizing with civilians in Gaza, promoting the creation of a Palestinian State, criticizing Israel's settlement policy, its mistakes in war and peace, and its flaws as a society is not anti-Semitic. But, if you do the foregoing without learning about the history and context of Israel's actions and those of its enemies, if you only question the right of the Jewish people to self-determination or endlessly seek to re-litigate the creation of the modern State of Israel, if you support an economic, academic, or other boycott of Israel but not of other countries you believe are violating human rights, if you seek moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas (a terrorist group whose stated purpose is the destruction of Israel and all Jews), if you presume Israel guilty of war crimes before investigations are made, if you believe Israel is uniquely evil or the root of all problems in the Middle East, if you believe in Israel's self-defense theoretically but not in actuality, if you view this current war in Gaza as different from all other wars and the civilian casualties as different from other civilian casualties in war, you must ask yourself why."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariel-chesler/the-antisemite-inside-you_b_5639393.html

[calilama]

84. I could not agree more

Long time DU fan and devotee...just recently posted...the anti Semitic vitriol that gets posted here is obvious and deeply offensive....when posters link maps,of the region that begin in 1917 as proof that Jews stole Palestine, it sends a message to ignore the centuries old history of the region and deny the historical and legal right of Israel to exist...the Nazi comparisons are flat out good old fashioned Jew hating....THERE IS NO COMPARISON..denying Israel's right to exist is anti semitism...disagreeing with the idiocy of the current Israeli policy is not

There is a two state solution...getting partners to that solution is no small trick

[ColesCountyDem]

66. I understand. Not only has blatant anti-Semitism become acceptable, but so has blatant incivlity.

As the grandson of a Polish Jewess who emigrated to America before WW1 in order to marry my grandfather, and whose remaining 100+ family members perished in the Shoah, I am also appalled at a great deal of what I have read here. Posts that would earn a 7-0 'hide' for blatant incivility on almost any other topic are routinely given a 'leave it alone', and the only common denominator that I can discern is "It's about Israel, so that makes it acceptable".

Be well, and please come back when you feel the time is right.

[randome]

67. Israel has done, and is doing, something so reprehensible it shocks the world.

Maybe exact analogies are not called for but surely anyone can understand that we are all in shock at what is occurring.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[phylny]

73. I'm horrified, to be sure.

As horrified as when our country inserts itself into foreign conflicts, sells weapons all over the world, uses drones, destroys civilizations.

It's all disgusting.

[randome]

80. As was our decimation of Iraq.

To see another 'Democracy' invade and decimate another country is depressing. Despite Hamas' bitterness and hatred, they managed to do very little and then Israel decides they kidnapped and tortured some teenagers as a pretext to sweep Gaza clean.

But religion is like water. It goes where it wants.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[stevenleser]

119. Very wrong, yes. Shocking? Hardly. In any year you have several governments killing this many people

The world would be great if instances like these were so rare they were shocking. But its not.

[hack89]

70. I don't blame you

Hope you find some peace

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

71. Well, during your time off, maybe you can take a little time for introspection

and think about just why so many people are seeing Israeli actions as mirroring those of prior horrific violators of human rights, or are seriously angry with same.

Sometimes, when you see assholes all around you, there's really only one asshole. The one doing the looking.


'these difficult times in Israel'. What the Palestinians are going through is a thousand times more 'difficult' than what the Israelis are going through. Until Israelis would be willing to switch places with the Palestinians, we'll know that the Palestinians are still being oppressed by the Israelis.

I am glad that so many non-Israeli Jewish people around the world have condemned the open air prison that is Gaza as well as the slaughter and destruction, and even the small minority in Israel who can see that the path to a happy and peaceful Israel is not the destruction of the Palestinians people, their homes, schools, and hospitals.

[Half-Century Man]

79. Open Air Prison?

Might I point out only two of four sides of Gaza border on Israel. Gaza has airports, port facilities, a border with Egypt, and the Palestine National Authority issues their own passports sans Israeli control. This talking point of open air prison lacks creditability.

Israel has secured their border with Gaza because a hostile element in the Gazan populace (Hamas) has publicly declared their goal of destroying Israel. Israel monitors maritime and air traffic from Gaza to prevent the secured border from being circumvented. Now there is the added threat of tunnels.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. 'Monitors'?

Controls. Let's face it. Barring smuggling, no person or or item crosses into Gaza without Israeli permission.

Egypt goes along with it, A) because they have treaties with Israel, and B) (now) because the current military rulers despises the Muslim Brotherhood and thus Hamas.

I would drop referring to Gaza as a prison if Israel would end its 'monitoring' of Palestinian airports and port facilities. I certainly have no problem with Israel controlling its own border with Palestinian territories, even if it means completely closing them to outgoing Palestinian traffic, as long as Gazans (and West Bank Palestinians) can leave Palestine for other places in the world without being 'monitored' by Israel.

[Spider Jerusalem]

85. Israel controls Gaza's airspace.

Gaza does not have an airport (not a functional one, at least). Israel enforces a blockade off the coast. The border crossings are closed and patrolled by the Egyptian Army and IDF. So yes, it's an open air prison. You should learn what you're talking about before you express a patently stupid opinion.

[Half-Century Man]

155. I remember when Yasser Arafat International was opened (named).

One of the people I worked with flew in there when he accompanied his father home to visit relatives (so he claimed, he could have been lying I suppose). I didn't do a Google Earth scan of Gaza before I posted.

Please forgive my grossly stupid mistake about an airport that shows up on maps. I shall fast today in repentance.

[freshwest]

169. Hope you fast for your health instead. They're so many toxic news stories it makes the heart sick!

[Spider Jerusalem]

193. Bombed in 2001, not rebuilt.

Here's your airport in Gaza:

[freshwest]

168. Thanks for that information, makes one think. Most of have never heard a word of that...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

75. Despite our past run-in I appreciate your words and regret your leaving as much as I understand it.

[Half-Century Man]

76. Shalom for now.

Find some for yourself. Share it with the people next to you, and maybe it'll spread.

[JaneyVee]

77. can we get some links?

[marble falls]

78. Anyone who disagrees with you is an anti-Semite....

[4dsc]

81. Don't understand the difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism

You can go now.

[mopinko]

83. it was a better place w mods.

i learned a lot from other mods and du'ers of good faith about the history and coded language of anti-semitism. people pick up language sometimes, not knowing the history, what they are really saying.

we washed a WWHHOOOOOLE lot of ugly down that hot tub drain.

i dont post much any more myself. i am on ignore lists of people that i wish could have a conversation with me. educators, other feminists, hell, all the people that hated me for actions as a mod. maybe some of that will wear off us old timers now that things are out in the open.
i want to believe that this community can police itself, but........

take good care of yourself.
be back in time for november.
or maybe just hit the phonebanks and talk to some less jaded people.

[Enrique]

86. we get leave at DU?

who knew? Where can I check how much leave I have?

[randome]

88. You didn't know about the 'use it or lose it' policy?

Your training materials should have covered this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[madokie]

87. I'm not a prolific poster

most times I simply reply a short few words and go on. But when this place starts getting me down I simply move away and busy myself at other sites rather than make a post that I'm leaving.
Having said that trust me when I say this I enjoy your words and have learned a lot from them over the years and will miss them for the time you are gone. Go take care of yourself and I will be looking forward to the time I see a PCIntern OP or reply.

Anyways don't take things so seriously
Peace
See you on the flip side,
be well

[etherealtruth]

89. Sorry ... wishing you peace and a quick return to DU

I do not comment on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as I have no solutions ... only "prayers" that all of the people in this region will one day find peace.

Regarding you: Over the years your posts have been enlightening, thought provoking and entertaining on a wide variety of subjects; therefore, I have a selfish desire for you to eventually return.

[hlthe2b]

90. Peace... That's all most of us want.

I'm sorry for all who are so deeply affected by the ugly extremes of what is posted. There are posts on both sides that are unconscionable. I do wish we could all stop categorizing each other into one of those most extreme boxes, when in reality, I think most fall keenly in the middle--wanting fairness and peace for all.

Taking a break is not a bad thing.... While the inexplicable and depressing cycle of violence will surely not be ended any time soon, a lull will undoubtedly come. We change what we can, when we can and hope for the long view.

[reACTIONary]

91. Israel is not "The Jews"...

Israel is not "The Jews". Hamas is not "The Palestinians".

[randome]

99. Israel says they are 'The Jews'. Therein lies some of the confusion, I think.

Their God-given right to take someone else's land. The usual religious nonsense.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[reACTIONary]

182. That may be...

... I don't know. And it may also be that Hamas claims to be "The Palestinians". Once again, I don't know.

But I do know that Israel is not The Jews and Hamas is not The Palestinians. Those are just simple facts.

[mr blur]

92. What ridiculous nonsense.

Still, you got to make a fuss, eh?

[oberliner]

95. Most DUers are disgusted by Israel-Nazi comparisons

It's just a loud minority on the other side.

[Crunchy Frog]

96. I'm sorry that you've found yourself in this situation.

This must be an incredibly difficult and painful time for you.

While I profoundly disagree with your positions concerning the current conflict in Gaza, I've always enjoyed your other posts, and generally found you to be a great voice for progressive causes.

I wish you the best during your break and look forword to your return.

[Octafish]

98. Your voice will be missed. DU will become much smaller.

Your insight adds to the community's understanding, PCIntern. In all your posts -- on subjects from Israel and Palestine to Argentina and Zaire, from around the globe and throughout the cosmos -- You always bring light, Doctor.

Please know you are always welcome on DU -- and at your home in Detroit.

[Ruby the Liberal]

101. I understand completely and agree

See you when you recharge. We have an election to fight for that is less than 4 months away.

L'chaim!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

102. Hurrah.

[redgreenandblue]

103. Your point woud be stronger if you hadn't chosen to include a racist narrative in your OP.

The conflict in Israel is not about "Hamas".

[randome]

114. But Israel SAYS it is so...

...who are we to question God's Chosen?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[madamesilverspurs]

105. Concur.

There are those with whom I engage in lively and informing discussion on the subject; they are not, sadly, on this forum. There is a huge difference between conversation and verbal pummeling, and I choose the former.

[Fozzledick]

106. It's a shame DU has become such a hostile and anti-Democratic environment.

It had such great potential, but as an experiment in mob rule it's degenerated into a blood sport for the most belligerent and fascistic bullies, with a distinct anti-Semitic undertone. We're already past the point where honest discussion and debate is possible.

[Puzzledtraveller]

113. Ditto

[Tuesday Afternoon]

115. +1

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. ever since the creation of the Jury System of roulette based posting

this place has been slowing burning itself down ... becoming more and more hostile and charged. sooo many good people have been run off because of this atmosphere.

sP

[steve2470]

123. I can see the community moderation being abandoned or....

at least very severely tweaked in the future. The Nazi comparisons are just OTT wow.

[Logical]

163. What a load of crap. For some it seems complaining about anything Obama does is anti-democratic. n-t

[Fozzledick]

191. Would you like to buy a clue?

You don't seem to understand what this conversation is about.

[Logical]

192. LOL, here is my clue........

"It's a shame DU has become such a hostile and anti-Democratic environment."


What part of "anti-Democratic environment" did I misunderstand???

[Fozzledick]

194. The part that referred to suppression of dissenting views and Democratic values in general

rather than criticism of the president in particular.

I would think anyone reading through the thread would understand that's what is being discussed.

[DanTex]

190. Yeah, it's pretty weird that there are DUers who actually defend the Likud war crimes.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

199. This ^ ^ ^

[King_David]

230. +1

[riderinthestorm]

108. Be well PCIntern. I completely understand. nt

[TransitJohn]

110. Equating Likud with the Nazis is just wrong, the apropos comparison is with

Apartheid South Africa.

[Puzzledtraveller]

111. I am with you PC.

Overall you can't make much of anonymous posters out of a multitude of political forums, some know what they are talking about but most do not and I do not expect them too as I don't myself. I just have my opinions, and of course, opinions are like.................. moles,in the right place they look good, but mostly they are just ugly.

[PowerToThePeople]

112. I have yet to post in an Israel/Palestine thread.

The situation is so heart breaking and soul wrenching to me, that I can not think about it without dissolving into a quivering emotional blob. Imo, there are no good answers. We have to turn the clock back to before WW2 and change history to right things.

As far as current DU right wing tactics and postings, I agree fully. This site has certainly shifted to allow some extremely disgusting opinions to stay posted and those posters to remain members. I do not understand how or why this has happened, but it is very visible to me.

I wish you well, and hope that you come back from your break and post again. There are good people in the world and good people on this board. The world is a cruel place where a few bad apples can do massive harm to the good ones.

[stevenleser]

117. The Israel-->Nazi posts should result in a hide everytime and a PPR for repeated posts/OPs.

Last edited Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:06 PM - Edit history (1)

They are over the top, incorrect hyperbole and intentionally disruptive and hurtful.

Those inaccurate and hyperbolic statements are completely unnecessary to express dissent with Israel's actions.

[Violet_Crumble]

120. Steve! That last sentence!

Did you mean it to say something like 'It is completely unnecessary to do that in order to express dissent with Israel's actions'? It's just the way it reads now it sounds like it's unnecessary to criticise Israel, which I'm pretty positive isn't what you meant...

[NutmegYankee]

154. It's just a dangling participle

He means that the use of Nazi references is completely unnecessary to express dissent on Israel's actions. Dissent can be expressed in other more appropriate ways.

[stevenleser]

156. Yes, In was inartfully done in haste. I have edited the post.

Thanks Violet

[steve2470]

124. agreed about the hides nt

[Logical]

164. So you disagree with the Jury system? nt

[BainsBane]

210. Agreed. nt

[mulsh]

121. "My empathy for the suffering in Gaza does not make me

ttanti-semitic or pro-Hamas or anti-Israel. It makes me human." David Harris Gershon. That's the way I also feel.

I have never unquestioningly supported any government or political entity. I don't waste time arguing with folks who compare the current regime in Israel with Nazis. I also think that people who make that assertion make it very easy for me to identify someone I won't waste time with.

I do not support the current regime in Israel. I enough close friends and a few relatives in Israel so that I believe I know the difference between their government and the people of Israel. I have and will never supported any right wing regimes.

I've always looked foreword to you posts, even the rabidly pro-Israel ones. Although I don't necessarily agree with that view point those posts made me think and sometimes changed my point of view.

Have a good healthy sulk PCIntern, as me old Irish mother would say. Hope to see your posts again someday.

[MohRokTah]

125. I can't say that I blame you, blatant anti-Semitism is rampant here

I suspect DU will end up being flagged as an anti-Semitic forum soon.

[840high]

129. ...^ that

[Kingofalldems]

131. Let's see some evidence please.

Back it up.

[tridim]

150. I was on a jury for an obvious anti-semitic troll

He had 40 posts and the jury voted swiftly and decisively to hide the post.

DU is not defined by low-post trolls, except by people with an agenda.

[kelliekat44]

200. Probably. But only by those who want to paint it as such to shut off the debate. nt

[Algernon Moncrieff]

233. Your comment led to an interesting poll

It's posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025326652

I apologize for my thoughtlessness in not doing this earlier, but your comment in that thread would be welcomed (by me, at least).

[randys1]

236. I must be an anti-Semite too then because while I think Hamas is guilty of murder

I also think the response by the rightwing Israeli govt is overkill

so count me in (BOY OH BOY will my liberal Jewish friends who agree with me be shocked to learn they and I are anti Semitic)

[MohRokTah]

237. Not anti-semitism. eom

[DocwillCuNow]

128. PCIntern, I hardly knew ya.... understand your dismay, hope you will return soon,

meaning that hopefully people will return to their senses soon. Be well.

[Spider Jerusalem]

130. "Before removing the mote from thy neighbour's eye, tend to the beam in thine own."

This is most humorous in light of your recent postings in which you very self-evidently equate criticisms of Israel with anti-Semitism, in which you conflate Hamas and Palestinians, and in which you accuse those who point out the illegality of Israeli occupation of being Hamas supporters (not to mention making vaguely homophobic asides.

[randome]

132. Ouch.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The night is always young. It's never too late.[/center][/font][hr]

[hlthe2b]

137. Not unexpectedly... there is more to the story...

and the offenses hardly one-sided. sigh...

[840high]

134. I will miss. Fully understand.

[cpwm17]

136. Bye, but fortunately you are in a minority around here

Most people on DU believe that the life of all people is equally sacred. No one, no matter what religion they claim, has a special right to abuse their fellow human beings.

If you think criticism of Israel is worse than mass-murder, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, torturing kids, bombing ambulances, bombing hospitals, bombing homes, obliterating children, bulldozing olive groves, stealing water, and imprisoning an entire population for not having the correct religion then you've got your priorities all wrong.

bye, so long, adios.

[CrawlingChaos]

195. +infinity

Hey cpwm17, I know we don't agree on everything, but I really appreciate all your excellent posts countering Islamophobic garbage here at DU. It can be a lonely and disheartening endeavor, I know.

[cpwm17]

196. Thank you, that's one of the best compliments I've received here on DU

I think I've disagreed with you before, but I lack the memory to remember why. It couldn't have been too bad.

[LittleBlue]

140. I've seen the opposite. Here is a jury I served on where the poster advocates ethnic cleansing

5. how many missiles shoudl israel allow hamas to launch

100? 200? 1000?

maybe israel should just go in and level the gaza strip. flatten every house and force the palastinians to leave. at least them israel wont face rocket attacks and the palestinians wont be killed

On Sat Jul 26, 2014, 09:42 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

how many missiles shoudl israel allow hamas to launch
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=856619

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Wow. Advocacy of "level(ling) the Gaza strip"...no matter where you stand on the Israel/Palestine issue this has got to be as sick as " advocating the destruction of the state of Israel" (quoting ToS section on hate speech).

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 26, 2014, 09:54 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There are a couple equally bad posts in this thread. Let's all stop accusing one side or the other of genocide and just discuss solutions.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The poster is one "muzzies" reference short of being mainstream Freeper.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Laladedadeda! Genocide! It's just for Germans anymore!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No, I'm not hiding this. The same types of things are being said about Israel. This is a hot topic and passions run deep on both sides. This is in no way over the top or more importantly it doesn't make DU suck. I'm a leave on this.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's distasteful yes...but the entire situation has become super sensitive and distasteful. I say let the conversation continue.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[William769]

145. Please don't stay gone long.

I know this is harder for you than me but I have been using thrash thread like there's no tomorrow. I just hide the tripe & move on. But I understand where you are coming from.

Just know we will be here when you come back.

[COLGATE4]

148. You will be missed. Stay well

Zay gezundt

[4now]

149. The world isn't believing Israel's lies anymore.

and calling people that disagree with them anti-semitic doesn't have the same sting anymore.

[AgingAmerican]

152. RW techniques?

Um, Israels siege is right wing. There is no anti-semitism here. Being against Israels invasion/bombardment for humanitarian reasons does not rise to the level of antisemitism, sorry.

[Scootaloo]

153. Killing Palestinians is not an intrinsic part - or ANY part - of Jewishness

That you take opposition to killing of Palestinians as hatred of Jews, indicates to me that if anyone has that particular brand of character sickness, it's probably you. That you run behind Jews, and exploit them as shields for your calls for violence and indifference to mass killing, only reinforces this opinion of mine.

So yes. there is no place for antisemitism on DU. Not even from the angle you present. So I'll tell you like I did the last poster to tuck tail after their advocacy for brutality was knocked down down - don't let the doorknob leave a mark.

[Comrade Grumpy]

159. Got it. You can't call people anti-semites, so you're taking your ball and going home. Bye.

[Rhinodawg]

165. Very sensitive.

Lol

[Logical]

172. This was alerted on and lost 1-6. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

178. Results of the alert (thanks to a little birdie, otherwise I wouldn't even have known):

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Sat Aug 2, 2014, 04:12 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Got it. You can't call people anti-semites, so you're taking your ball and going home. Bye.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5327856

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Hateful! Please Hide. Piling on PCIntern

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 2, 2014, 04:18 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Generally I hate I'm saying goodbye threads, but pile ons are to be expected. I don't see what is a violation here.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: PC Intern has been quite hateful himself
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree it's a pile on but that's not enough reason to hide. I wish I could but that would be wrong.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: GBCW posts are the height of self-indulgence. If one wants attention that badly then one has to be prepared to take the bad with the good. This is an observation, not an attack.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[amuse bouche]

181. That sounds about right

[Garthem]

160. Thank you

for being one of only 14 people solid enough to rec my thread (now locked) from yesterday. I now return your kindness with a rec of this thread!

[jillan]

166. I was just having this conversation the other day - the ugliness and anti-semitic comments I hear

are coming from the left.

It's as if people are blind to what Hamas is doing but hyper-aware of everything that Israel is doing.


Take a deep breath PCIntern. I completely understand.

[Pisces]

170. No one is blind to Hamas, however, it is hard to ignore dead or dying children on tv. It is hard to

ignore the death toll. Bomb the tunnels, root out Hamas, but please don't do it at the cost of innocent lives, and don't expect
people to line up behind the justifications.

There are many people on both sides calling for the death of the other. THis doesn't make me want to side with anyone but the
children.

It can not be you are with Netanyhu or you are against Israel and all Jews. It can also not be if you are agains the death of
Palestinian children then you are for Hamas!!

There is more nuance than that, but you so many want to break it down into these simple arguments.

[hifiguy]

176. I just came back after an absence of a year-plus

Sometimes it's best to take a break and return recharged.

[octoberlib]

183. Well, there does seem to be some house-cleaning

going on. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=145328&sub=trans

[Kaleva]

186. Wow! He was a member since 2004.

[Warren DeMontague]

187. Good.

Thanks, admins.

Those posts were way over the line, Smokey.

[freshwest]

188. I saw that second post and was amazed. I'd read some of his posts and thought he was smart.

I don't mean smart as in 'no hidden posts,' he'd made some good posts. That post showed a side of him I didn't expect:

Swede Atlanta

...(Israel)...the consolation prize handed out by the newly-formed U.N. because Hitler had gassed and cooked so many Jews...

Where the hell did that come from? Then he said he wanted:

...Jews sent somewhere but here...

Meaning, not here, and the picture that evokes is the Jews fleeing on boats and no country allowing them to land.

China was a refuge for them when the USA wasn't.

But I'd seldom seen his posts. Some pretty hateful stuff.

[octoberlib]

201. I agree. It was vile.

[SidDithers]

197. I don't blame you...

I can't believe some of the anti-Semitic shit that juries are leaving. All of the familiar dog whistles are on display- the Jooos control the media, AIPAC controls US foreign policy, etc, etc, etc.

And now the comparisons to Nazis.

Posting that type of shit used to get you shitcanned around here.

Now, the "community" thinks its OK.



Sid

[steve2470]

198. Using Nazis in referring to Israel is just the epitome of OTT

As I've said in my posts, yes, the Israeli government is killing people, but the Nazis ? Come on. It's bad enough as it is, no need to ratchet it up to a googol.

[whereisjustice]

202. Israel using flechette shells in Gaza

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza

[Skip Intro]

203. You're not alone. n/t

[7wo7rees]

204. Lame PC. Especially from you. nt

[BillZBubb]

205. Drama much? Your hyperbole is laughable and disrespectful.

"this has become an outlet for some of the worst anti-Semitism I have seen in many years."

Trying to deflect attention from the crimes Israel is committing by screaming "anti-Semitism" at everybody pointing them out lost its effectiveness years ago.

[BainsBane]

208. Both things are true

The war on Gaza is horrendous and the anti-Semitism on this site is notable. That some people can't articulate opposition to Israeli policy without showing their contempt for Jews is disappointing. Of course, some of these same people have sought to justify or deny Assad's brutal murders of well over 100,000 in Syria.

[BillZBubb]

211. No, both things are exaggerations seen through the eyes of a true believer.

The anti-Semitism on this site is minimal. The attempt of Israel's apologists to paint serious criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic is maximal. Face it, when you've got no way to morally defend what is happening in Gaza, the best tactic is to tarnish the critics as anti-Semites.

The good news is that tactic isn't working this time around. I'm sure that frustrates a lot of the apologists.

[alp227]

225. YES! Too many people can't walk & chew gum at the same time.

It is possible to criticize Israel policy without resorting to the typical anti Semitic crap you'd find on sites like Stormfront. DU ToS even explicitly defines such anti-Semitic rhetoric banned by the site:

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

[BainsBane]

206. I too have been disturbed by the antisemitism

and I am someone entirely opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestine and war on Gaza. I feel badly for the Jewish members of this site, good Democrats who may view the issue differently because of their ethnic background and/or connections with Israel. I understand your decision. Justice in Palestine cannot be promoted through injustice toward Jews.

[Rex]

207. You do what you gotta do.

[Hekate]

209. I will miss you PCIntern. It's gone toxic here, and not just on Israel.

I'm heartsick over what's happening there, but I have no one to discuss it with either here or at home. My beloved husband is Jewish, the son of survivors, and he is heartsick as well, but we can't talk about this.

And DU is overflowing with toxicity. The hatred of Obama flowers unchecked. There's a thread with some of the more sensitive beginning to sound -- well I don't want to say it.

As for me, I'm hanging on at DU on a day to day basis.

Best of luck to you, and may we meet again in better times.

Hekate

[Hissyspit]

213. "Hamas must be rooted out and destroyed"

By blowing the shit out of children.

Here's an Israeli in Israel:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025274142

http://972mag.com/how-can-you-possibly-oppose-this-war/93924/

By Dahlia Scheindlin |Published July 19, 2014

How can you possibly oppose this war?

Someone asked me an innocent question: “What is the position of Israelis who are against the war?”

There are obvious answers.

First, this is a disproportionate war that harms huge numbers of civilians. The IDF is bombarding an area that it has already imprisoned by occupation from 1967, and then through suffocating border, movement, import and export control since 2007. Its residents have been stateless since 1948. It is attacking by air, land and sea, while Hamas attacks civilians in Israel through rockets and now through terrorist infiltration, at an increasingly frenzied pace.

Second, escalation breeds escalation. The south of Israel has not been at peace for a decade, but in this war, the whole country is under attack. And “Protective Edge” made things even worse for the south; all the Israel casualties so far – as of today two civilian deaths, numerous wounded (including children) and one soldier killed – have been in the south. “Code Red” warnings in Sderot all these years were awful, but death is worse. On a good day, there is suffering in Gaza; now the death and destruction there is indescribable.

- snip -

Fourth, the political and social consequences of the war will be a disaster in the short, medium and long term. In the short term, Hamas could easily become stronger, having become the defiant face of military resistance against Israel as diplomacy crumbles.

- snip -

Here is my extremely unpopular answer. There is no such thing as today devoid of yesterday and tomorrow; it is a fiction. The measures of the last ten days grow directly out of the measures in recent years. They will have devastating consequences in years to come. My criticism of this war is not “I told you so,” because some of us have warned for years that the status quo is illusory. Opposition to this war means finding a different response to predictable situations, so that there won’t be a next time, and in two years Israelis won’t have to say “this is no time to analyze the past.’”

- snip -

In the long term, I shudder to think about the souls of people who lost two, three, or 18 family members to Israeli bombs. The sobbing father who begged his child to wake up because he had brought new toys; the woman who told her sister in England to stay away and live, so that at least one of the family members would survive. I see what national trauma has done to the Jewish people more than 60 years following their darkest moments. The manifestations of Palestinian suffering in future generations will be terrible.

The fifth and final reason to oppose the operation is that previous wars have failed. Operation Cast Lead in 2008/9 begat Pillar of Defense in 2012, begat Protective Edge in 2014. Hamas was not toppled, Gaza was not disarmed. The only thing changing is the accelerating pace of the wars.

MORE AT LINK

[mwrguy]

214. well, bye.

[mackerel]

216. Take a break, I do from time to time, we all need it.

As for my views I like to make the distinction that it is the State of Israel's policies I often disagree with but I do not considered
this to be the same as individual Israeli's, who are mostly Jewish. I also don't agree with Hamas' policies and I am concerned about all the innocent Palestinian's, especially the children.

[WillyT]

218. Something For Your Consideration... During Your Break...

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025321636

[McCamy Taylor]

219. "Like pornography, I know it when I see it." But it is still protected free speech because

we do not all see or hear the same thing.

I, for one, am glad that DU has finally gotten over its "Murder of innocents is bad---unless it happens in Gaza, then we are not supposed to talk about it" policy. Winter 2008-9, we could hardly say a word in defense of the innocent citizens of Gaza without being tombstoned on DU. In order to get around the blackout which the mods had placed on any kind of criticism of Israel or support for the dead children of Palestine I was forced to write a generic piece about the effects of War on Children. It was the only way I could write in support of the people being killed in Gaza without being censored at DU.

You've come a long way, baby. Thank you, DU.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/357

[Spitfire of ATJ]

220. These were the good old days....

[LWolf]

224. Okay.

I'm not shouting "Hurrah," although I disagree with your stand on principle.

It's okay that we disagree. That's where conversation begins. Otherwise, it's just an echo chamber.

For the record, I am neither "pro" nor "anti" Israel, Hamas, Palestine, or Semetic. I haven't read most of the posts on the current situation here at DU, because I simply don't have any interest in joining a flame fest on one side or the other.

If "nothing will change your mind" on a topic, then the only real reason to talk about it ANYWHERE is to convince others to agree with you. I think you are correct in assuming that there are some who will simply not be moved from their position...just like yourself. Your audience, then, are those who are ambivalent or haven't formed a solid stance. There may be some here at DU; here, or anywhere, you'll catch more listeners offering open-mindedness and courtesy. Those two things are often in conflict with the environment on anonymous forums.

Why not just refrain from posting about Israel and Hamas? Is that the only topic you want to talk about?

[unblock]

226. i agree entirely. we need more posts like this, not fewer.

well all except the taking leave part, not that i can blame you.

this place will be more tolerable again once the i-p situation calms down.

[MADem]

227. I haven't been following your commentaries on that particular topic.

In general, though, I agree with your comments about the rightwing disruptive techniques, the goading and baiting, and even (though it is denied) a swarming tactic that I see employed every now and again.

I hope the admins are taking note of this sort of thing--if they did an audit of activity surrounding hidden posts (to include DU mails of the goaders/baiters) they'd probably catch a lot of trolls involved in the "hide" process, in many circumstances.

[King_David]

229. Don't blame you Come back soon please. nt

[murielm99]

231. Please come back when you feel you can.

I wish I had taken some time to support you, because I agree with you. OTOH, I don't want to be banned here over this issue any more than you do.

There are some bullies here who get their way too often, and they are not trolls. They are, for example, pro-Hamas, anti-religion, anti-Hillary....

They make many of us afraid to defend our opinions.

I will see you when you feel able to return.

[Jane Austin]

235. I always read your posts

and I have a lot of respect for you and your views.

Please return soon.