Israel is misunderstood

[Cicada]

Contrary to common belief, Israel is generous with Gaza. They permit exports of about 3% of the economy, they let Gazans farm about 60% of their farmland, and that's why about 20% of Gazans have income exceeding $1.50 per day. Sure Israel will shoot anyone entering or leaving Gaza without their permission, but that's understandable. Ask those in Berlin. And it's true Israel is taking over more and more of "Palestine" but other countries have also understood that healthy and vigorous peoples have a right to expand to get needed "lebensraum." And these UN complaints are outrageous. Missiles have been found by UN personnel at some of their abandonned properties (and turned over) so it's fair to shell occupied UN properties used as shelters where there aren't such stored missiles, assuming that there was fire coming from "the region" of the UN School.

The bias against Israel is just outrageous.

[NOLALady]

1. OK

Did you forget your sarcasm tag?

[Scootaloo]

12. it hardly seems needed, frankly

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. You'll get blasted for the 'lebensraum' part.

Well, the pro-Israel types will blast everything, but they'll get especially annoyed over any possible 'Godwinism'. Israel has divine dispensation from ever being compared to that particular set of oppressors.

[steve2470]

3. lebensraum = Nazi term = OTT, sorry nt

[treestar]

4. It does raise the question how, under those conditions, they expect no opposition to ever occur

And the use of collective punishment is wrong too.

It does not appear to work to "teach them a lesson" and stop the opposition. Ordinary people seem to be supposed to find the terrorists, and convince them to do nothing.

[msanthrope]

5. MIRT cleanup aisle 3!!! Somebody knocked over the "lebensraum" and it stinks!!! nt

[GoneFishin]

6. Yeah. Watch that. Being dispossessed of your land and property, forced to live within fenced

barriers manned by armed guards, and having insufficient food to eat, and possibly losing your life because you were born with the wrong genetic makeup is much different from being dispossessed of your land and property, forced to live within fenced barriers manned by armed guards, and having insufficient food to eat, and possibly losing your life because you were born with the wrong genetic makeup.

[killbotfactory]

9. I just don't understand how people can compare the two

[rateyes]

10. Excellent point!

[stonecutter357]

13. .

[mike_c]

27. besides, making the comparison is OTT....

Sheesh.

[peoli]

7. I have no bais against Israel, it is against Netanyahu the War Criminal

I think it is the same for most. Huge difference.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

15. I wasn't thrilled with Ariel Sharon either

[freedom fighter jh]

16. Most of the Israeli public supports him . . .

. . . but I think they are brainwashed by news media under military censorship.

Eran Efrati, former Israeli soldier, says here that the Israeli media are censored by the military. Sorry, I did not make note of where in the video he says it.

So in the end I think I agree with you that it's Netanyahu.

[PatSeg]

18. And Israeli people

who do speak out against the government are quickly ostracized. Not healthy to oppose Netanyahu in Israel.

[louis-t]

20. Israelis support bibi the same way 90% of Americans

supported stupidface after 9/11. It's a nationalistic support.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. I think that poll of Dubya asked, "How do you feel he did on that speech?" to get that number.

[COLGATE4]

8. Godwin award of the moment. nt

[Cicada]

31. Fair comment. Soweto is probably a better analogy.

It seems obvious to me that the Israeli government wants all the land and resources of Israel and Palestine combined and will never agree to a settlement in which Palestinians get anything of any real value. That strikes me as immoral and contrary to the long-run best interest of Israel. Gaza is their version of Soweto which I concede does not reach the level of horror of the Warsaw ghetto. The right-wing faction of Israel is a colonial power, not a rebirth of the nazis.

[COLGATE4]

36. It's certainly a legitimate point of view, even if

I personally don't agree with it. Your post is the kind of thoughtful response that is sometimes lacking when discussing this subject.

[NCjack]

11. Are we misunderstanding the trend in disappearance of Palestinian land? I think not.

[L0oniX]

26. Don't expect sympathy from a country that took Indian lands by force and trickery.

[Helen Borg]

14. Righto. Give credit where credit is due.

[JDPriestly]

17. The history of Palestinian terrorism speaks for itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_attacks_attributed_to_Palestinian_militant_groups

Attacks so numerous that Wikipedia presents them in alphabetical order.

Yes, the Israeli reaction is hurting a lot of innocent people.

But there are two sides to this dispute.

A negotiated peace that is monitored is the only answer I can see.

Denigrating and accusing one side or the other will just fuel more anger and hurt and self-righteous violence.

We do not help the Palestinians by encouraging the extremists among them and justifying their rockets and tunnels.

The Israelis would be easy to stop if we could assure them that they could live safely within a reasonable territory for them. But to be fair, the Israelis react to constant harassment and threats from the Palestinians.

So let's encourage peace not retribution and vengeance. Both Israel and Palestine need to do better and need to get over their pasts.

[PatSeg]

19. Oppression tends to create extremists

I don't think the Israeli government is "reacting" anymore.

[JDPriestly]

35. And the response to terror is also extremism.

Both sides need to negotiate a settlement.

Taking one side or the other is not helpful because it emboldens the warring parties to continue to fight.

Each side has its own story of oppression and deprivation. DUers may see one side as the victim because it is losing. But both sides are victims as long as they do not enjoy peace and life in a healthy, happy international neighborhood.

War is always a waste and a loss.

Pressure both sides to negotiate peace. The more Israel is isolated, the more it will feel threatened by its neighbors.

Both sides have to negotiate peace.

[PatSeg]

39. It clearly has created a vicious cycle

of acting and reacting with no end in sight. I understand what you're saying about not taking sides, but innocent civilians, especially the women and children, definitely take priority for me regardless of what side they are on.

[JDPriestly]

40. It's heartbreaking but do you realize how many innocent civilians died due to American bombs

in WWII?

Dresden is an example.

War kills people and leaves them traumatized.

Greed and terrorism engender war. There are no just wars. Never. None.

The Palestinians and Israelis need to negotiate, and then both sides need to expend the energy they might spend on war on enforcing the negotiated settlement.

There is no alternative unless Palestinians are to suffer more and more.

While the deaths in Palestine are a horror, no civilized nation and especially no democracy can sustain what Israel has sustained. It built a wall. That did not keep the attacks out. It built a shield. And that did not keep the attacks out because Palestinians built tunnels.

The rockets and tunnels are as much acts of war as are the bombs and the invasion of the Israelis. There are more dead on the Palestinian side. The Israelis would argue that is because the Palestinian leaders value the lives of their people more.

The arguments can go on and on with each side thinking of yet another reason it is right.

The deaths in and of themselves do not make the Palestinians right. Nor does the occupied land if the countries are at war.

They have to negotiate AND ENFORCE peace.

Right now the Palestinians have the upper hand. That will probably continue. But Israel really needs peace. So the Palestinians can apply pressure toward a good settlement based on its past conduct.

I think a lot of the problem is pride and the fact that the Palestinians and lack experience with a strong civil, representative government while the Israelis have a strong civil government -- a democracy that allows non-Jews within Israel to vote and be represented in the Knesset -- and a disciplined army and people -- a united army and people.

That means that Palestinians have to pull themselves together, decide they want peace and then pressure Israel to trust the Palestinians united desire for peace. That's the only way that peace can be won without Palestinians being killed in even greater numbers.

Pray or meditate or just send good vibes for peace.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Collective punishment is a war crime.

[JDPriestly]

34. War is collective punishment.

War is always a crime.

So is terrorism.

Generally, in war the best organized best equipped army can win if it is willing to conquer the civilian population of the country in which the war is being fought.

The alternative is to negotiate peace. Usually the losing party in a war has to take the short end in the deal made to end the war.

That's the way it has been since tribes fought in prehistoric times, I suppose.

I don't want either side to use violence to resolve their dispute. Both sides will lose in the end if the a) war and b) terrorism (of which the rockets shot by Palestinians and the tunnels dug by Palestinians are a part.

My point is that all the sympathy in the world will not bring back the lives of those who die in the war, and they will not heal the trauma of all those who suffer from constant attacks or harassment that simulate war.

The parties have to sit down and negotiate.

It is irresponsible to take one side or the other as strongly as many DUers do because it just encourages both sides to feel justified in continuing to fight.

There are two sides, and the dispute needs to be resolved in negotiations.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. I mentioned a treaty to someone recently and they said, "Why have a treaty with your enemy?"...

I said, "Because you don't NEED to have treaties with your friends. They're your friends."

Oh,...and have you ever noticed that those who claim, "All they understand is violence." will settle for nothing less than violence?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. This reads like Manny.

[MisterP]

23. we all know it's sarcasm--but the Chasbots would post something like this and MEAN IT

[L0oniX]

24. Who are you working for?

[abakan]

28. This is exactly how I feel about the conflict in Gaza

Source: http://all-hat-no-cattle.blogspot.com

[randome]

30. Yeah.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The night is always young. It's never too late.[/center][/font][hr]

[SomethingFishy]

37. I'm in.

I have a hard time "siding" with anyone but the innocent.

[enid602]

29. babs

Was Barbara Bush said after Katrina, 'these people have it pretty damned good here.

[Boom Sound 416]

32. I'm sorry I need the sarcasm thingy I think

[oldandhappy]

33. I grew up trained to be pro-Israel.

No longer. Israel is spoiled. Decades of hate on both sides have brought us to where we are. Fully guaranteed open borders are necessary. And the lebensraum comment is a hoot. People in Gaza need living space also. The last lebensraum situation did not end well! I am not anti-Israel, and I am no longer pro-Israel. We need to realize that the Palestinian people are not serfs. Both sides need guarantees of land and safely and access to the other side of their borders.