General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs blatant anti-Semitism rampant here at DU?
The question is based on this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5326529
My personal opinion is "no", but different folks see things in different ways.
| 111 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired | |
| Yes | |
37 (33%) |
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| No | |
70 (63%) |
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| Unsure | |
4 (4%) |
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| 0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:15 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
I can't say that I blame you, blatant anti-Semitism is rampant here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5326529
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Wow. Way over the top trashing of DU (with no evidence presented). Poster has an agenda.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:20 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: :eyeroll:
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster has an opinion, not an agenda. Opinions are (last I knew) OK on DU.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Passions are running high on I-P issues. I disagree that DU is an antisemitic hotbed, and in fact disagree on most things with this poster, but don't see an alert as an appropriate response here.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is disgusting.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)This poll is about the statement of the poster.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I think it's reasonable to express that the post was juried. I just want you and everyone to know the jury result is not being questioned.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)There have been a few, but virtually any criticism of Israeli military and government action is being taken as anti-semitism.
I prefer to be nuanced and refer specifically to actions of the IDF under Netanyahu and the Likud, but the people of Israel are making it difficult, with polls suggesting that 9 in 10 of them support the current ongoing slaughter, but for the sake of the 10% who are against the actions being taken in their names, I will continue to try and not take the shorthand of blaming Israel as a whole.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I edited. Thanks!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)as best we can.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Keep up the excellent work.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)For instance, a zombie of the previously banned inch4progress is currently posting at DU.
"Banned" sure doesn't mean what it used to mean.
Sid
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
When someone's got almost 40,000 posts here, then DU is in their blood. They don't go gently into that good night, but are likely to try coming back a few times.
Happy MIRTing
Sid
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
This info helps when asking for more guidance upstairs.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Poster PPR'd Aug 26, 2013.
New sign up Sep 25, 2013
PPR'd again Oct 5, 2013
Signed up again Dec 13, 2013
Still posting as of Aug 2, 2014.
I wonder if there was an account between Oct 5 and Dec 13 that we're missing, or if they just took a break.
Sid
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)...or are you insinuating that I'm a zombie?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I did change my name; however, I was never banned.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)10,000 posts is a good count on a username.
Sid
Response to SidDithers (Reply #38)
hrmjustin This message was self-deleted by its author.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Whats with letting all these banned ppl back onto DU? Is there a grace period?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)MIRT does a hell of a job.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Thanks to all of you MIRT members.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I hope to serve with you again.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)So, I'll see you back there next year.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Surprise 
I was wrong. Badly need bridge reconstruction between New York and Pennsylvania has almost put me out of business. 
I'm filling out job applications.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)It's been 18 years since I was an asset to someone else's business. 
Not even a nibble yet.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Most of the time I really do try but sometimes I screw up royally. 
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)There have been several people recently banned for anti-Semitism. Some trolls; some long-term posters who have come out of the woodwork.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Versus just maybe having gone quiet through time-outs? Is there a list somewhere, or would you have to individually check profiles.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)check the profiles.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)What propaganda position would you have me advance with this poll?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)the word.
Remove the word, use "present", you have a a better poll.
Same with "blatant", ambiguous also.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)The aim of the question was to get as close to the wording s/he used and poll on that basis.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Peace be with you
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Autumn
(45,066 posts)and killing of innocent people by indiscriminate bombing. Well most of us.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Autumn
(45,066 posts)
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Altogether too much of it, though, IMO.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)'Rampant' would be going too far, but an appreciable portion of criticism of Israel here is couched in terms that cross the line into jew-hate territory, and this is particularly evident among the most energetic.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)to Israel, I really expect such posts to be hidden by a DU jury. That some have not been is disturbing to me.
I support neither side in that conflict. Both are wrong and some peaceful solution needs to be created. But anyone comparing Israel to Nazi Germany has his or her comparisons wrong. One can condemn Israel's actions in Gaza without such hyperbole. Such comparisons do not belong on DU, IMO.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I do not consider it conclusive proof, but certainly consider it grounds for a gimlet eye....
"Not enough to convict in a court, but more then enough to break knees in an ally."
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)See juror #3 . Is this anti- semitism ?
On Sun Jul 27, 2014, 03:32 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Weird. It isn't Jews who are being massacred in the hundreds.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=856484
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
personal attack.
A Jury of DU members reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 27, 2014, 03:45 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's Zionists who are intent on genocide and land grabbing. The term they use is "mowing the lawn" not much different from the Nazis. Just missing ovens.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Way over the top
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)And it accuses me of genocide and land grabbing ...that I am a nazi...
"Just without ovens"
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I believe that there is a behind-the-scenes monitoring of jury comments. That might also be a good ATA question.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Bring it to the attention of the Admins.
And of course, you can, as you have done, post it up in public.
Juror no. 3 is, on the evidence, an Anti-Semite of the worst water, whose account should be terminated.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)Thank you
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Look down at its bottom.
There will be an 'alert abuse' button at the lower left. It works just like alerting on a post, but goes to the Admins, not a jury.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Is there something more than that juror response?
Making comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany may be offensive to certain sensibilities, but it is not evidence of anti-semitism.
It appears that you are the one who is being extreme here (unless you know something I don't know).
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)It is an expression of hate, couched in terms intended to outrage and provoke an extreme reaction, and is false to fact into the bargain. I can assure you that, under the former system of moderation, that comment would lead to discussion of termination, and if anything similar was on record, or came to light, termination would have been the consensus., and on grounds of hate speech.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)That you claim such comparisons amount to "hate speech" makes me think you are doing special pleading for one ethnic group, which must be protected--to the point of banning posters--from claims that make them feel bad.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I would add to my earlier comment that under the rules of the old I/P forum, which I had a hand in enforcing when they were first instituted, that post would have been removed immediately, and termination of the poster nearly certain.
You are arguing in favor of hate-speech and bigotry, which it is your privilege to do, but people can and will draw conclusions from your efforts in that line here.
"As you make your bed, so you lie there.
But who'll tuck you in when you do?
And if someone steps up
I'll be that one,
And if someone gets stepped on that one's you."
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)This is a matter of opinion, not fact.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Palestinian right to self-determination was tombstoned. I, for one, am very glad that is no longer the case.
For the most part, accusations of anti-semitism here at DU (and in many other quarters) are used as a sword to shut down legitimate discussion, not as a shield to protect against genuinely bigoted expression.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I know exactly how those rules were enforced; I had a hand in it. No none ever was terminated for advocating the right of Arab Palestinians to self-determination.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)I've seen those posters disappear in I/P over the years, just as many others have.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I know what I did, and I know what was done by the team which came after me.
It is true that some members of 'Team Palestine' were terminated, just as were some members of 'Team Israel'. It was not one-sided, and it was never because of which side of the matter a person upheld. People were terminated because they violated the rules: because they could not keep their temper and fell to personal abuse of other members, because they advocated for the defeat of Democratic Party candidates, because they linked to hate sites and, yes, demonstrated in their comments bigotry against Arabs or Jews.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)I find it very difficult to believe that you are not aware that there has been longstanding controversy around at least one I/P host's repeated tombstoning of pro-Palestinian posters. There is at least one message board out there that owes its entire existence to that host having exiled so many of these DUers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)I know what Mr. Lithos and Ms. Mina did.
I am aware some people who have no knowledge of the practices and deliberations of the moderating teams like to think they were treated unfairly. I could point you to at least one message board which was set up by 'Team Israel' people who were expelled, on which they posted at great length about how pro-Palestinian posters were given free reign and defenders of Israel guaranteed a tombstone sooner or later, and usually sooner --- I do not know if it is still there and have no interest in looking, but it was there for several years that I know of.
The fact is Mr. Lithos and Ms. Mina bent over backwards to be fair to all, and were, and are, extraordinarily knowledgeable on the topic as well. Mr. Rabbit and I were chosen as respected representatives of our respective sides, and acted only when we both agreed action had to be taken, as a further guarantee of fairness.
The people who complain of bias in moderating that forum, and who complain people were terminated because they supported one side or another, are simply wrong, as wrong as someone maintaining with a straight face the sun rises in the west, or that there are pink unicorns that breathe fire in his garage.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)that their actions were appropriate, and I don't expect to convince you otherwise. By the same token, I and others who have watched this pattern of behavior over a decade or more are also entitled to believe our lying eyes.
I suppose the great gay purge of 2009 never happened either.
And so goes DU.
Added on edit: I am well aware of the vile website you mention, and thankfully, it no longer appears to be spewing venom into the ether. I shouldn't have to remind you, either, that at least one of the admins of that now defunct website used to be a DU I/P mod.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)We are deep enough already into 'say something once, why say it again' that no purpose will be served by repeating the facts yet again....
MADem
(135,425 posts)"tombstoning." It's being barred from a particular forum. MIRT had nothing to do with any of that...unless the poster was a low-post count troll. Furthermore, group hosts do NOT have the power to "tombstone" anyone from this board.
If someone wants to get back into a forum, they have to have a discussion with the forum host(s), via PM, and see if the host will lift the ban. That will probably involve something like an apology for past poor behavior and a promise to not name-call or things of that nature.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)it was affecting my health) - nonetheless I can say without the slightest hesitation that absolutely never was anyone ever banned for advocating the Palestinian right to self-determination or even the single state solution - never. There was however a willingness to be more tolerant, more long suffering and more willingness to grant the benefit of the doubt to those on the extreme end of Pro-Israeli sentiment than there was on the other side.
The idea that there was ever a gay purge on DU is something I cannot even imagine anyone ever seriously thinking - considering anything less than full support for marriage equality is not permitted on DU - and was never permitted even previously when civil unions as opposed to full marriage equality was at that time the position supported by the Democratic President and the vast majority of the Democratic Party leadership.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Maybe some of our LGBT group friends can refresh your memory. 'Twas quite the dust-up. See if the number "7" rings any bells.
Amazed people's memories aren't longer around here. Perhaps that's why these things go on.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)- loving self-deception better than reality. This poll above tells us that there are at least 89 DU members willing to intentionally try to trick themselves into believing that anti-Semitism is rampant on DU - Something so preposterous it insults intelligence. Then we find people from the other end of the spectrum claiming that DU bans people for being gay or supporting Palestinian self-determination - Equally removed from the world of reality and reason. I have plenty of problems with DU and how the admin has made some of their decisions - No doubt there are some anti-Semites, anti-Arab racist and homophobes on DU. But these charges of rampant anti-Semitism or banning people for supporting Palestinian self-determination or for being gay are not living in the world of reason and reality.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)stranger81
(2,345 posts)But apparently it never happened. Someone should let KitchenWitch, yardwork, et. al. know.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Same goes for anti-Semitism here; too many claim they "don't see it" so it is nothing more than "lies" from Arab/Muslim/Palestinian hatemongers who love the blood of dead Arabs and are nothing more than paid propagandists for Israel.
I actually thought about PMing yardwork, but I was afraid it might really upset her. She doesn't participate much as it is anymore, and many of the purged have either left or, like yardie, don't post much anymore. The homophobia may not be as bad as it was then, but it will only take a single event to set it off again, IMO. Homophobia is, however, still a problem here.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)I hope she is well and happy.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)If you go to the link I provided, you will see lots of gay posters who no longer, or rarely, post anymore.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)and no, I don't believe that they ever banned anyone for supporting Palestinian self-determination either. That is equally preposterous.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)They were banned because they took on homophobic bigots. If you are having trouble "believing" it, perhaps you should bounce on over to ATA and ask Skinner about it.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Go ask Skinner. I dare you. You will not because you are simply exploiting an issue and a people you do not really care enough about to speak with informed accuracy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x173419
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)have ever dreamed of daring. Don't make assumptions about things you don't know anything about. DU is about the most gay friendly forum I could imagine anywhere that is not specifically a gay forum. If there has been some kind of purge of gay people here- I find that hard to imagine. But I have always noticed that there is frequently a huge gap between ordinary gay people in the real world who are not necessarily terribly political or Jewish people in the real world who may or may not be particularly political - or Arab or Muslim people or Autistic people or whoever in the real world who may or may not be particularly political - There is definitely a gap between ordinary people of all identifiable communities who are not particularly ideological and those who claim to speak for them.
agbdf
(200 posts)As a Jew, I am also feeling an ever growing anti-semitism in some quarters on the Left.
This is too bad considering the historic involvement of Jews, in prominent roles, throughout the progressive movement in this country over the past 70 years.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Racism is playing a role in the mass murders committed by the Israeli government. Racism played a role in the mass murders committed by the Nazi government under Hitler. That is a true comparison and asserting its truth is no evidence of anti-Semitism. Does that mean that the racists in the Israeli government are as bad as Hitler and his crew? Of course not. To compare is not to equate.
So far we agree, but I do think that making such comparisons given the horror of the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany is cruel and insensitive and just plain wrong.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...which deflects from the well-deserved criticism of Israeli policies.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)I no longer alert on such posts. I agree about the Nazi comparisons, even though I believe Israel bears a greater share of the blame in the conflict because of its military power and the death toll it is responsible for.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I nearly didn't alert, as it had been there for a while and I figured someone had already alerted, but it turns out I was the first person to alert on it. Maybe people aren't alerting for the same reason I nearly didn't. I don't care if I'd have gotten a 0-7 leave, because all alerts end up with the admin and they'll see them. If people don't alert, then they don't see them...
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Posting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to see how many recs it would get. I think you know I get just as pissed off about Islamophobia. People have assumed I was Muslim in the past. I just don't think it's necessary to engage in bigoted speech to express opposition or outrage to the war in Palestine or anything else for that matter.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)There's quite a lot of criticism of Israel's actions in Gaza, some of it hyperbolic, but that isn't anti-Semitism. There have been some clear instances of anti-Semitic commentary, but those are very few.
Spazito
(50,326 posts)were/are clearly virulently anti-semitic, most have been hidden or removed but not all.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)anti-war and have been since Vietnam. The opposition to the Israel-Gaza war is not about the nationality or religion of the people on either side. It is about being against any kind of war. Many of us do not believe war is ever the answer and that using it merely brings on more war. That is not anti-Semitism.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)
LWolf
(46,179 posts)the actions of the Israeli government without being anti-semitic. I don't oppose that government's actions because it's a Jewish nation. I oppose those actions because they are wrong. It's that simple.
egduj
(805 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)a side of plausible deniability to keep from crossing that blatant line. A fair amount running up to the line, pushing the line, crossing it and angrily scurrying back.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
leftstreet
(36,107 posts)I/P threads aren't allowed in GD unless there's something in the news
Which means you've got people posting on a subject that GD rarely sees
I don't know how you'd determine whether anti-Semitic posts are more/less 'rampant' than misogynistic, homophobic, or racist posts
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Too many people equate an attack on Israel's policies as anti-Semitism.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)Pisces
(5,599 posts)I am at a loss for words at how upside down and twisted things have become.
bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)KG
(28,751 posts)makes me anti-semitic: oh well.
kentuck
(111,088 posts)But it is not anti-Semitism.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Now bigotry and blindness on the other side of the matter is definitely rampant. Accusations of "anti-Semitism" are introduced against those who see fault on both sides of this sad affair. I have even been told by a zionist that saying Israel is not "the Jews" is a meaningless statement. Go figure
msongs
(67,401 posts)if one is definining semite as Jewish only, or Israelite only, one should use those descriptors. Palestinians and many arab sub-groups are also Semites by definition.;
Codeine
(25,586 posts)as has been pointed out a bazillion times in recent days. It does not and has never applied to all Semitic people -- it means Jew-hating.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)the Semites were tribal peoples in the Middle east. And that the modern day tribal peoples are those of Jewish ancestry that had lived in Palestine for much of recorded history, as well as the Palestinians, who had also lived there for much of recorded history.
When I went on to college, I was taught the same thing by a Jewish professor.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Which derives from German politics in the nineteenth century, and was intended to make 'Juden-Hass' sound more respectable, as Semite was a common genteel euphemism for Jew, a grade above even Hebrew or Israelite. This had nothing to do with the linguistic family of Semitic languages, spoken by Arabs and Jews and others in the Near East for a long time, which nineteenth century science conflated into a specific physical or racial type with some shared characteristics of appearance. Until people who were stung by being called on expressions of hate for Jews in the Near East began to try and get cute, no one anywhere understood, or tried to pretend, the usage 'Anti-Semitism' meant anything but its original root meaning 'hatred for Jews'.
MADem
(135,425 posts)quite exclusively to a person who is bigoted against only one particular type of Semite, not the whole lot of them.
A few links to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
While the term's etymology appears to indicate that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was in fact coined in Germany in 1860 as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"
,[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]http://archive.adl.org/hate-patrol/antisemitism.html#.U989pfldWSo
I rather think your memory is failing you as to what your "Jewish professor" told you about this topic. This isn't a topic that any practicing--or even secular-- Jew would find confusing.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)But I am sure it is popular among those who like to be conservatively demonstrating their knowledge of the appropriateness of the semantics of a term.
Anyway an alternate site, which is biased the opposite way, has this to say:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100206013528AA63WA7
zionist israelis are the worst anti-semites because of what they do to the inhabitants of their stolen land, the Palestinian Arabs and Christians. it's just another sign of their misguided talmudian deception which is flawed and corrupted. others are the occult hex star which has absolutely nothing to do with old king David son of Jesse, and Jupiter's temple wall they worship in Jerusalem.
Source:
the only purpose of the term "ANTI SEMITE" is to silence any truthful reporting that exposes israeli barbarity. it is the epitome of hypocrisy
#####
Gene Wildman, the professor in question, was indeed both Jewish and anti-Establishment. He felt spurned by those he had once been tied to by religion, as they were not in favor of his outspokenness on the issue of homeosexuality. He wrote poems for and edited an incredibly amazing edition of University of Chicago's Poetry volume, with the year in question being 1969. (IIRC) He was friend's with William Burroughs.
MADem
(135,425 posts)just fine and dandy, and second, I really think you are protesting too much.
What you are doing is the equivalent of insisting that water is not wet.
YAHOO ANSWERS is not an "alternative" to Wikipedia. It is a site populated by trolls and teen moms, and no citations are provided. The garbage you just posted was precisely that--garbage. It has no place at DU. I urge you to consider deletion.
That term has NOTHING to do what is happening in Gaza (I don't think anyone "approves" of the slaughter of innocent civilians), it predates it by more than a century. I simply do not believe that your "Jewish professor" was so ignorant of history that he was unaware of this, so my only conclusion coming from a positive POV can be that you must have misheard what he said, because surely you would not want to use his name to shade your argument--without any links, I notice (while you disparage me for my Wikipedia and ADL sources--with footnotes to the documented claims?).
Why don't you dig your hole even deeper, and tell us that the Encyclopedia Britannica is a shit source, as well?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/27646/anti-Semitism
Last time I checked 1879 was a hundred years earlier than 1969. Either you were inattentive at your lectures, or your professor was ignorant of history.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)In this case, it is not that difficult. Anti = against. Semite means Semitic person or peoples.
Since the Palestinians and many other tribal groups in that part of the world are all Semites, then the fact that the word is now supposedly only to refer to one group among those many groups, well, that is just fugging nuts. Which is a point both several Catholic nuns made back in my grammar schools day, when they talked about it, and my Jewish professor also made some years later.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)pedophile - pedo - child, phile - denoting fondness for a specified thing, ergo a pedophile is someone who is fond of children and not a "a person who is sexually attracted to children"?
How's about...
inflammable - in- - prefix meaning 'not', flammable - combustible, therefore, if something is inflammable it is the condition of not being combustible, as opposed to "being combustible"?
MADem
(135,425 posts)terribly comfortable with the behavior of the Israelis with regard to Gaza, that I find your refusal to acknowledge the meaning of the term very troubling, indeed.
You are neither Mirriam nor Webster--you have no charge or authority to decide that an established meaning means something other than what it means because you claim to be a "stickler."
I am not buying it, and, as I said, I am troubled by your doubling-down on this matter.
You need to educate yourself because you are coming off as someone who touts a POV that is popularly found on hate sites.
Your repeated insistence that a "Jewish professor" and "Catholic nuns" support your warped definition do not fly. What you are saying is not accurate. You provide no proof, because you have none.
reorg
(3,317 posts)the previous poster, msongs, said it NEEDS a more narrow definition.
The term originally was and still is, I believe, Euro-centric, it denotes the prejudicial attitude of the German (also French, Polish, Russian etc.) middle class towards what they felt was a "foreign" element in their society which threatened their status. Their paranoia found expression in certain wild conspiracy theories, but also in common expressions, such as when someone who was good at bargaining was called a "Jew".
In its more recent use, most obvious in the reports, statements and complaints about chants shouted at demonstrations, attempted attacks on synagogues and so forth in Paris and Berlin, this Euro-centric term becomes a paradox. Now it is (mostly) not Europeans hating on "foreigners" - no, on the contrary, it is even more "foreign" individuals and groups who are subjected to hate and abuse themselves (mostly by Europeans) allegedly harbouring prejudice and hate against all Jews.
I cannot tell if the allegation really holds true if these incidents were to be profoundly investigated - at least these most recent manifestations of "anti-Semitism" could obviously be explained in other terms - but the fact remains that this "new wave of anti-Semitism" sweeping "all over Europe" is not at all a "European" phenomenon. It may be something completely different from what the term was used for, originally.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And anti Jewish ONLY . There is no debate about this.
reorg
(3,317 posts)but the usage of the term varies widely, depending on who is using it, the time period, social and psychological circumstances of those holding or being accused of such attitudes.
And yes, there is a debate over how useful the term is, and, yes, there is a debate - not only in forum messages, but also among scholars.
As to what dictionaries say, I just consulted Wikipedia. In the German version, there is a section labelled "discussion" which mentions that some dictionaries actually do point out that the common term "anti-Semitism" as it is used nowadays for "across-the-board, including non-racist hostile attitudes towards Jews" is false:
- Meyers Konversationslexikon, in 1881
- Brockhaus Enzyklopädie, current edition.
"The term is false because "Semites" comprises besides Jews also Arabs, who are never meant by Antisemites."
A better, more precise term would be "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred) or "Judenfeindlichkeit" (enmity, prejudice towards Jews).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenfeindlichkeit#Diskussion
MADem
(135,425 posts)scholarly interest in word origins.
This really isn't about how "useful" or "precise" the term is; it's about observing, in this very thread, people insisting that the term doesn't mean what the entire reasonable and thinking world SAYS the term means. Since the post - WW2 era, everyone KNOWS what an anti-Semite is -- Hitler defined himself as the Top anti-Semite of the Century. People would have to hiding in a cave for the last seventy years to not know what "that phrase" means.
I find the denial in this thread really disturbing. It doesn't matter how a person feels about the events in Gaza--one can separate one's distaste for the horrors of war from this issue. It comes off, even if not intended as such, like a dog whistle to extremist groups; denying that "anti-semite" means "enmity towards Jews" and suggesting that it also means "I don't like that Lebanese guy over there" as well is just over-the-top.
I really don't think that kind of "papering over the cracks" stuff belongs here on this forum.
Is the number one response by an anti-Semite to an accusation of anti-Semitism.
You, too, would be great on Family Feud.
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)does not make you an anti-Semite.
dembotoz
(16,802 posts)during viet nam the phrase America right or wrong was rather popular as was america love it or leave it.
such statements are silly but keep reappearing
gtar100
(4,192 posts)government of Israel. Criticism of Israel or its government is not the same as anti-Semitism. But that concept can be hard to get through to some noggins.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)That there are people who find 'criticism of Israel' a convenient hide from which to circulate standard tropes of Anti-Semitism, peddling hatred and even seeking recruits to their bigoted outlook.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)after they find that blatant, outright statements of prejudice are not welcome in present company.
It's one thing to change one's speech, but a whole other matter to change one's heart and mind.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)
madamesilverspurs
(15,800 posts)because it is more pervasive than one would expect here. And it keeps good company with those who hold that, regarding a particular strife, only one opinion is allowed.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)It seems blatant to me because I can't stand even a single instance of it here at a place like DU.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)but a few posters cross the line.
I would rather not censure these, because once exposed they will get drowned right away by most DUers. I rather think this to be true for any racial hatred posts.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)and ultimate control over the political system - Except this DU member identifies himself as a pro-Israeli American Jew who attends a large and prosperous Temple and who supports the incursion into Gaza:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5326898
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5327053
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5327146
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)tings me as a possible sock on a zombies foot but there's a missing element
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)I do see posts that are clearly anti-Semitic, and I'm not including in those criticism of the Israeli government, which can be valid.
There are other posts that while not overtly anti-Semitic, are things that people probably wouldn't say if a Jewish state wasn't involved. I can't help but think that the proliferation of Nazi comparisons has something to do with that.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Since both sides in this conflict (er, massacre) are of a blood line of peoples who' re descendents of Semites, no matter which side you take, you are supporting Semites.
It is only through the distortions allowed by the way that the media has handled the word "Semite" that this discussion about anti-Semitism is even taking place!
Codeine
(25,586 posts)noun
1.
discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Again, distortion.
When an item that is pollutive, either in terms of physical toxicity, or in terms of toxic destruction of ultimate Truth, has become so much a part of normalcy, the distortion cannot be noticed. That doesn't mean there is not distortion.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)now I find out that Jews and Arabs are Semites, I'm so confused.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Get out your DVD of the movie "Exodus" and play it till you understand that there is no need to understand.
I mean, when did the Palestinians ever produce and distribute a movie that went on to win multiple Academy awards? That right there should tell you who we should be supporting!
Is the number one response by an anti-Semite to an accusation of anti-Semitism.
You would do great on Family Feud.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Being anti IDF isn't either. No matter how much IDF and Likudniks scream.
The world will not be silenced by slander.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)It's disgusting. Anti-semitism, like sexism is so deeply embedded In our culture we accept it as the 'norm', even by people with 'good intentions'
It's so prevalent I'm surprised there isn't some pseudo-science Evo-Psych paper on it.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)I have to say yes. The anti-semitism cuts both ways, slicing at both Jew/Israeli and Arab/Palestinian.
While I am not always successful, I try to be specific about who I am at odds with. Be it an organization, a government, a party within a country, a person within a party, or an action of a person.
One of the reasons I have rarely posted on I/P issues is I know I have a bias. A deep set emotional bias that contrives logical thought. At no point in a discussion is rage helpful. You end up insulting people directly or indirectly.
If I have an issue with a talking point, I'll ask or counterpoint. I try to do so without being insulting and would like to be responded to likewise. But tempers flair.
And the insulting is where the myriad facets of Anti-Semitism lay.
villager
(26,001 posts)Which makes me wonder if all these posters who find "the Jews," as a whole, indistinguishable from the Likud government in Israel, would be willing to be equally condemned, themselves, for being "Americans" (or Protestants, or white, or what have you) during the time of Bush/Cheney war crimes...
sakabatou
(42,152 posts)There's antisemitism, which I hardly see on here, if any. And then there's complaints about Israel.
They're completely different.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)a liberal thinker, an enlightened soul, an intellectual and scholar, an individual concerned with profound issues of morality, justice, and law then I would say I'm pro-semitic. I look up to you with admiration and love you as a brother and sister. Before I retired as an attorney, I worked in a law office with such an individual at its head. During the first Gulf War against Iraq I said something negative about Arabs and he immediately set me straight. He was one of the best people I've ever known.
If you are a gun-toting religious fundamentalist nut like some of the settlers in Israel who has no qualms about displacing people from from their land and shooting them if they get in the way and only caring about achieving a greater Israel at any cost then I guess I'm anti-semitic, the way I'm anti-Islamic if you are a fundamentalist Moslem cut-throat murdering nut for your religion.
MH1
(17,600 posts)People alleging anti-semitism have linked to blatant examples. But the vast majority of anti-Israel posts I see are against their current actions, and certainly not against ALL Jews.
I would say "insensitivity" IS rampant at DU, but that applies across the board, not just to a particular group.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I think there's been some ugly stuff said, and too much left by juries who should know better.
But I don't think it's indicative of most people on the site.
JI7
(89,248 posts)this time it's been a bit more obvious than other times just because of the issue being discussed and involved. so there is more of it.
but it happens with others also like when the zimmerman trial was going on there was a lot of anti black things being posted.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)You are correct: issues drive these types of discussions.
JI7
(89,248 posts)but when it comes to muslims/arabs and jews it's more often in a conspiracy theory type way and usually to attack an entire people or culture.
but this is more about US politics.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That would be a more interesting poll question in my opinion.
Would your answer be no?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Is subtle anti-Semitism present at DU? Probably.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Duh.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)No, Israel has been run for most of its history by very conservative Jews who, quite honestly, want to do to the Palestinians or maybe even all the Arabs, what Hitler tried to do to them. They claim that is not the case but it is.
I have no time for Israel. I want it dismantled and the Jews sent somewhere but here. Israel is dead to me.So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Israel in any form. Let the Israelis pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill. Further I am for a U.N. plan to dismantle Israel and give the land back to the Palestinians. I'm sure the Jews won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust.
Or is the above "Criticism of Israel's military policy "?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I didn't say it.
What is your point?
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)I gave you an example. You didn't answer the simple question asked of you. Is the example anti-Semitic or "criticism of Israel?"
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Straw man? From me? Never.
I am not the enemy. In your anger you have forgotten that. Check yourself.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Yes, your strawman. The question had nothing to do with Israeli policy or the criticizing therein, making your comment a strawman and inspiring the questions which you have still not answered. So, it is you that needs to "check yourself" because your comment was not about the OP.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts) Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I'm not certain I'd characterize all of the Prime Ministers of Israel as "conservative". AFAIK, they are all adherents to the Jewish faith --is that a fair statement?
This seems to be the crux of the problem. Those supporting Israel get very upset with the comparison of the current Palestinian policy to the policies of the Nazi's. I suppose my question to you would be this: do you see that a statement of prejudice against Jews generally (which is what I would consider to be anti-Semitism), a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism), or a statement against the policies of the Netanyahu administration?
Again: do you see that a statement of prejudice against Jews generally (which is what I would consider to be anti-Semitism), a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism), or a statement against the policies of the Netanyahu administration?
Personally, I see that as a criticism of US policy toward Israel. You may see that differently, and I invite your comment.
I see this as a statement against the existence of Israel (anti-Zionism). Again, you may see that differently, and I invite your comment.
I suppose that a better choice of words would have been "I'm sure the Israelis won't mind living in camps for 30 or 40 years like they did to the Palestinians after the U.N. gave them Israel as a consolation prize for the holocaust." My more general observation is that two wrongs don't make a right, and that an eye for an eye makes the world blind. There are some clichés, yes?
I believe that both of the posts you cite were hidden by juries. Is that correct?
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)yes or no, or give your caveats.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I see that as, more or less, a statement of fact. Albeit a poorly worded one. Israel, a nation that self-identifies as "the Jewish state" is governed (run, if you will) by adherents to the Jewish faith.
My view is that this statement is a statement against the policies of the nation of Israel and their policies toward Palestinian residents. I do not see this as an attack on practitioners of the Jewish faith.
I see this statement as anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic, and anti-immigrant. Not necessarily in that order.
I see that as a statement about US foreign policy. I could make that same statement about any US ally or client state. "So for me now I am for terminating all U.S. aid for Canada in any form. Let the Canadians pay for their own weapons and security without sugar daddy/bitch America footing the bill"
I see this statement as being anti-Zionist/anti-Israel, and not necessarily aimed at adherents of the Jewish faith.
As phrased, I'd agree that this is anti-Semitic. I believe the intent of the statement was "Let's do to the Israelis what's been done to the Palestinians and see how they like it." While statements like that may be emotionally satisfying, they help no one.
Full disclosure: I am not a current member of any organized faith. I have family (Jordanian/American) living in what was Jordan prior to the six-day war, and is now the West Bank. I have many close friends who are Jewish, and their opinions on this run the full spectrum (support of Netanyahu to opposition to Netanyahu). I have many conservative Christian relatives who fully support the actions of Israel in Gaza. My Facebook news feed is.... interesting. My personal view: the US should shut up and stay the Hell out of this (I've said this elsewhere - it's no secret).
My intent discussing this with you is to gain an understanding of what you consider to be anti-Semitic speech on the part of DUers. I look forward to your comments.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Seems like internet sociopathy.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)No, with caveats.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)And it's still there, with over 20 recs.
So, yes, it's present. And it's not just criticism of the current government of Israel, or Israel itself. It's prejudice against Jews as a whole.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)...or a title.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)And are veering dangerously into bigot territory...
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)into agreeing with 'rampant'.
I've seen several instances, I'm sure I've missed more, but the vast majority of what I've seen has been criticism of the IDF's actions, Netanyahu's policies, and the Likud. Not animosity towards people who are Jews as a whole.
So no, I can't agree with you that merely disagreeing with the poll *exactly as it is stated* means one is 'veering dangerously into bigot territory'.
Do your own poll, ask 'have there been instances of antisemitism on DU of late, and probably 99% of those who voted no in this poll will answer yes on that poll.
Don't just arbitrarily decide that other people should interpret the poll in a way other than written or suggest that they're 'veering into bigotry' if they don't answer a different poll question than the one actually asked.
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)as a source. I was disappointed it was not hidden--I got one on them "discuss it in the thread responses."
JFTR, Veteran's Today is an anti-Semitic hate site. When DU juries fail to hide hate material, it makes DU suck.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)I alerted on it because I don't think those of us critical if Israel's actions should ever use that. And I certainly was surprised that an Israel first-er would do so. The jury let the link stay.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That said, if you think they might not pay attention to the alert, you could send them a link to the hate site with maybe an excerpt of their "wares" so they appreciate the vitriol.
WTF is up with "Discuss it in the thread" when it involves essential HATRED? I don't care if it's Stormfront or the KKK, there are some things that just don't need to be "discussed." I really think those jurors need to get a clue.
It doesn't matter how people feel about this particular conflict in Gaza--hate is hate, and what's bad for the goose is bad for the gander.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)That said, I think most of us here are opposed to Israel's escalation of hostilities against the Palestinians, and the bulk of criticism against Israel is likely being generated by this latest escalation, and nothing more.
Having said that, if my friends here think it IS rampant, then perhaps I'm wrong, and I'd need to re-examine.
Garthem
(128 posts)Subtle? Hell yes!
cornball 24
(1,475 posts)blatant truth. I am grateful to those who post here who are not victims of the propoganda machine that permeates the media and the politicians who are oblivious to the carnage that is taking place in Gaza.
TBF
(32,056 posts)column so I will be reading more closely. To disagree with Netanyahu and his actions is not anti-semitism. But the comparisons to Nazi Germany may be over the top.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)But do you consider any such comparison anti-Semitism? From what I have seen, very few have gone over the line into anti-Semitism with this. I have posted my criticisms of them when I have seen them.
Many of those complaining about anti-Semitism seem to be seeking it wherever they can find it, even when it isn't there. I often see the charge as an attempt to deflect from defending the indefensible with regard to Gaza. For instance, I was accused of anti-Semitism for a post in which I never used the words "Jew" or "Jewish" or made any reference to the Nazi's or the Holocaust. I simply stated it was Israel's long term policy to annex whatever parts of the West Bank it wanted. I gave examples showing why that is a true statement.
TBF
(32,056 posts)and I don't think people saying it are necessarily anti-semetic. They are likely responding to things they've seen in the press about the conditions the Palestinians have been forced to live in. And once you start shooting missiles into an area people can't escape from it does being to look like genocide to others (no matter why they were originally forced into those areas). Perhaps not premeditated like the Nazi activities clearly were - but getting too close for comfort.
Perhaps there are other things I haven't seen though that are causing people to feel that there is an anti-semetic tide. I don't know - but if folks could point out specific examples it would help.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What I mean to say is, do you believe that the comparison is chosen specifically because Israel self-identifies as a Jewish state and Jews were a primary victim of Nazi Germany?
There are lots of countries in history who have annexed other lands - don't you think a comparison to Nazi Germany carries with it something different?
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state. So, to many critics of Israeli policy, the impression is that such a state, given the historic mistreatment of the Jews, should be extremely cautious about not using ANY of that behavior on other people. Although they were not alone, the Nazi's were the most egregious persecutors of Jews, so they are the most familiar example.
Of course, Israel isn't Nazi Germany and has no intention of eradicating the Palestinians. But a lot their rhetoric, occupation, and military strategy is fair ground for comparison. It isn't anti-Semitic.
I generally avoid such comparisons. From my perspective, they actually stem from profound disappointment in a country peopled by those many feel should know better. It is like shouting "How can you, given your history, support something like this?"
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Let me just ask you to take a step back and consider what you've written here.
Because the Jewish people were exterminated throughout Europe while much of the world sat by and watched - six million systemically rounded up and killed over a period of just a few years - that Jews have a special responsibility to treat others well.
Can't you see how that might come across?
Putting aside for a moment that what is going on now with respect to Gaza is not even remotely comparable to what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, can you not see a Jewish response that might go along these lines:
The Jews, for hundreds of years, lived in countries where they were treated as, at best, aliens and outsiders, were subjected to persecution ranging from run of the mill discrimination to out-and-out slaughter in countries where they felt safe - Jews in Germany, for example, saw themselves as German, and why wouldn't they - now for the first time in modern history have a state where they are no longer the aliens/outsiders - are consistently told their state is illegitimate - are subjected to decades of intermittent terrorist attacks - might take on the attitude of "we will do whatever it takes to defend ourselves and the rest of the world can go fuck themselves".
I mean it seems like if you want to talk about lessons the Jewish people might want to take away from being subjected to the holocaust - a potential one might be - we, as Jews, are on our own in this world. When the chips are down - in the diaspora, we are not thought of as countrymen to our fellow citizens.
Even today you read things about Jewish "control" of Hollywood or of Congress or what have you. Complaints that AIPAC is controlling foreign policy in a way that deliberately harms America at the expense of Israel (AIPAC consists entirely of American citizens by the way). The other-ness of being Jewish is still very much a daily reality of Jews who live outside of Israel.
So a comparison like that might come across as: Jeez, didn't you people learn anything from us trying to kill all of you?
More to the point though, there is nothing more vile than Nazi Germany. It's the ultimate embodiment of pure evil. So when you say that Israel (the only Jewish state, where nearly half the world's Jews live) is acting just like the regime that embodies pure evil (when, as you confess above, the comparison is not an apt one), it seems like there is a desire to create linkage between Jewish and Evil.
To simply say what Israel is doing in Gaza is wrong, is criminal, is offensive gets the point across. I am not sure what additional benefit is gained in support of that point by bringing Nazi Germany into it.
TBF
(32,056 posts)I really do think it is unintentional on the part of many folks. Even knowing some of the history it is especially hard to watch children being killed (on either side).
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I also get that a lot of people sometimes use "nazi" pretty flippantly (Jewish people included). I also get that people like to use the term in the case of Israel for the little extra emotional punch it likely contains.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)In any case, I stand by my view that raising this issue is not, by itself, anti-Semitic. As I said, I don't personally like bringing the Nazi regime into the discussion, but I don't automatically accuse those that do of anti-Semitism.
I won't go through all you points one by one, but I will say this about AIPAC. I do not believe AIPAC puts America's interests first. I believe it puts Israel's interests first but finds a way to rationalize that it is also America's interest. I also believe AIPAC does have undue influence on American policy. So does the NRA, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Christian, or anti whatever religion predominates that group.
I think the Likud and other right wing parties in Israel are evil. I think the republican party in the US is evil. That doesn't mean I am anti-Christian because the republicans claim to be Christians.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)With respect to AIPAC, all of the members are Americans. And they think that a strong relationship between Israel and the US is a positive for both countries. Folks are free to think that they are completely wrong for believing this, but it is something else entirely to say that they are deliberately working to, on purpose, harm America at the expense of another country. There are Americans who think we should have strong relations with China and that it would be good for both countries, whereas others think we shouldn't. Ditto Saudi Arabia. I think it's the same sort of thing with AIPAC. It is one thing to say - you AIPAC folks are wrong, it's actually bad for the US to give money for Israel. It's another thing to say I think you AIPAC folks are deliberately out to harm American on behalf of another country. Not sure if we're going to agree on this one, but would you at least agree that there is some anti-semitic undertone to suggesting that "Zionists control Congress" or the White House or Wall Street or Hollywood?
With respect to your other point, Christians are the majority in the US, so I don't know if that's a fair comparison. Some have suggested that some criticism of Obama is based on racism against African Americans, whereas I don't think too many people thought criticism of Bush or Clinton was based on racism against white people.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)African-Americans, in the majority of cases, are descendants of slaves. Would it be fair then to say, that, they of all people should be particularly non-violent and kind to others considering how much violence their ancestors had to deal with?
Would you compare a group of violent African-Americans to the KKK?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I will forward this observation: Israel is a nation state that self-identifies as "the Jewish state". I've seen instances in which posters have identified residents of Israel as "the Jews" rather than "the Israelis". However, I see almost no one here who would refer to the residents of Gaza as "the Muslims" (even though they are overwhelmingly practitioners of Islam) -- those persons are referred to as "the Palestinians".
randome
(34,845 posts)But when you mock the 'wrong' religion, you get called anti-Semitic. You get posts hidden, as I have (first time in 13 years, too). I fail to see the difference between calling out Rick Santorum for his ultra-religiousness or for saying that the right-wing wants to establish a theocracy and calling out other religions for their excesses.
Can anyone explain this to me? What am I missing?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)I seriously doubt most people here know much about the theology of Judaism.
You see, Jewishness is not simply a religion. It is an ethnic identity, a racial other according to German anthropologists who created ideas of race and racism in the 18th and 19th century (coinciding with the development of race as a biological category in the Atlantic world as a means of justifying slavery). (see George Frederickson, Racism: A Short History). The idea that Jews were still considered Jews after converting to Christianity throughout the West, including in Nazi Germany, should give you a pretty big clue that it is not simply a religion.
That doesn't mean mocking people for religion is much better, but it is different.
When people claim to advance a cause by invoking animosity for other racial, ethnic or religious groups, they cannot convincingly claim the mantle of social justice. The extent to which several work to justify mass murder in Syria suggests to me that the loss of life is not their primary concern. Perhaps it comes down to something as simple as the fact that if it isn't on their TeeVee sets, they can't be bothered to think about it.
randome
(34,845 posts)If anyone can become Jewish, then where does ethnicity come in? Or is there a difference between 'ethnic' Jewishness and 'religious' Jewishness?
All I know is that it is all ridiculous. We regularly say that one's religion doesn't matter. But if that's the case, then why bother with one at all?
My racist, fundamentalist Grandmother told me before she died: "Not all the good ones are Christian." She meant me. I had 'won her over' without ever trying. I see no purpose to religion other than to divide us. It certainly isn't necessary to be kind to one another.
I can manage just fine without reading from a manual.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)How can you live in America and not have met some? I don't know how to explain your lack of exposure on the subject. The fact you can't name a particular aspect of the Jewish religion that you oppose confirms this is not about what people believe but who they are.
What you refer to as a manual is a history book about the origins of racism. I'm sure you can manage without it, but history does have the benefit of informing. If by manual you mean religious text, I know of no one but fundamentalists who view scripture that way.
randome
(34,845 posts)In fact, most religions -granted, from my relatively narrow experience- are about how to behave and how to control others the way some power-mad man or men decided was right and proper.
I'm just sick of all of it and I see religion in general as being at the root of most of today's problems.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I don't know about ethnic, but Catholicism has an identity that most (not all) Protestant faiths lack. One can not have set foot in Mass since childhood, and still self-identify as a Catholic.
Two observations: recent polling data suggests that Islam remains very unpopular in America, and I think that informs thinking on Palestine and Syria. Second, with respect to the TV comment, if loss of life were the primary concern, the West African Ebola outbreak would be our primary concern; however, our concern seems to be mostly limited to the two Americans wh have been sent here for treatment.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)If you want to attack extremist Jews/Christians/Muslims/Hottentots/etc., make certain you name names, and not make what can be perceived as a general statement. When you attack Santorum you are calling out the Catholic religion or all Catholics for its excesses, you are calling out Santorum.
So, for instance, implying or claiming all Jews support what Israel is doing in Gaza crosses the line. But, stating that the Likud party and all of its followers support the massacre in Gaza does not. It is not anti-Semitic, but it is anti Likud policy.
randome
(34,845 posts)It provides cover for Netanyahu even though he is a very secular man himself.
As long as people support that kind of categorization of human beings, religion will always be used as cover by those with their own agenda.
That's what's frustrating to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)So, it isn't an Israel is a Jewish country; therefore, Jews... thing.
There is no doubt politicians like Netanyahu rely on the fact that fellow religionists rally to the flag when it is being criticized. The US religious right and their political front men use it all the time--they've uncovered the "war on Christianity" after all.
I do agree on you main point. It is disheartening that people everywhere allow themselves to be misled so easily because of their religious ties, or nationality, or race...
herding cats
(19,564 posts)When one refers to a person who is Jewish it doesn't mean, necessarily, the religion they practice. There are many secular Jews all over the world, yet they are still Jewish people.
Which if one is to stop and think explains the physical stereotypes associated with Jewish people. Christianity, which is a religion, has to be joined to become a member and as such covers all different demographics. So, there is no physical characteristics associated with being a Christian. However, while one can convert to the religion of Judaism, it's also an ethnic culture which one is born into which carries the heritage of that lineage, if the person practices the religion or not.
To slam all people who are Jewish and/or practice Judaism because of what the government in Israel is doing is an exercise in anti-intellectualism. Similar to the way blaming all Catholics for what a Pope says would be except worse.
On edit I see while I was thinking of the proper way to answer you, you've had other better answers than mine.
randome
(34,845 posts)The fanatical Islamists who want to subjugate women are just as bad as the fanatical elements in the Jewish religion/identity/nation and the fanatical Christian elements who want to 'convert' everyone regardless of the turmoil they cause.
We laugh at the fundamentalists who call America "God's Chosen". Yet when I mock the fundamentalists of the Jewish religion/identity/nation for the same thing, I get a post hidden.
I'm actually not complaining per se about the jury system. It will always be inconsistent and therefore hit and miss from someone's viewpoint. But it seems to be a double standard when fundamentalism is discussed.
And thanks for trying to educate me. I will never turn that down!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
herding cats
(19,564 posts)If one would even want to, that is. Which can't I understand why one would. We're not talking about something which is a modern creation. It's something which is so intermixed it isn't able to be separated. Yes, Jews have been persecuted for the beliefs of their religion, but they've been ostracized, murdered and subjected to bigotry if they were religious or not (allowing that initially most people were religious in one form or another) for literally millennia. If you were born into a Jewish family, be it maternal, paternal or both sides, there are still today many groups out there who will persecute you for who you are. You're subject to be called a plethora of pejoratives, or much worse treatment, your entire life because of your heritage. Which is bigotry, plain and simple. To be subjected to the same for your their faith is also bigotry. Neither one is acceptable by any means.
Having said that, the people of the Jewish faith are not all cut from the same cloth. Just like Christianity and Islam, etc. it has its Fundamentalist and extremist, but they are not in the majority, which is always an important distinction. I'm sorry you had a post hidden. Discussing theology is a tricky business. Too often it's easy to think we understand the situation without taking into consideration the nuances that make up the reality of others daily lives. Which is why I generally try to avoid the subject, this is a rare exception for me. Personally, I'm a secular person, but I try to be inclusive to those of faith who share my values. Which doesn't mean I haven't myself ranted against Fundamentalist of various religions when they cross my hard lines. The important thing is to never assume all people of a faith condone whatever extremist views you're opposed to. That sort of broad brush attacks do nothing but cause harm to the good people who subscribe to the faith.
Kaleva
(36,295 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)with any care at all.
I really think the "Read twice, post once" guidelines should apply to anyone posting about the conflict in Gaza. It's way too easy to wave that absurdly broad brush and tarnish people undeservedly--and I've seen some of that.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Thanks!
herding cats
(19,564 posts)Mostly it's not blatant and it's not rampant, but this isn't a site where one would expect to have to deal with it at all. Which makes it seem more glaring to my eyes.
I'm of a mind that the majority of people here have not willfully now or ever engaged is such. Yet there are some who have joined to add terminology to the mix which they know will be offensive hoping others will adopt it, and a handful of others who've never been educate on what is and isn't anti-Semitic. I'm sure in a community of this size there are also some real anti-Semites, although I'd like to think they wouldn't last long here, idealist that I am.
My advice is to think deeply before you post, and don't go off following someone because you agree with some of what they're saying without fully understanding all of what they're saying. In the end we're each responsible for our own actions in this life.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I have since gone back and the most blatantly anti-Semitic posts I saw have been removed and the name removed.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Your comment had made for a thought-provoking discussion.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)I don't pretend to know what motivates people here, but at least a week ago, I took a pledge to avoid commenting on the threads regarding the Gaza situation. It seems that minds are made up on both sides, and no amount of discussion is going to change them, or the eventual outcome.
Rex
(65,616 posts)use.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)False accusations have sure seen a rise in frequency, though.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Nearly a quarter have claimed anti-Semitism is "rampant", yet they have to scrounge like crazy to dig up even a few examples. It is sad really and they should be ashamed for making false accusations about their fellow DU'ers. But apparently, in defense of Likudnik Israeli policy, anything is allowed.
840high
(17,196 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)I've seen it all! Yes, I have! Bigotry in ALL forms right here!!!
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)
mnhtnbb
(31,384 posts)who votes which way in polls.
An interesting feature of DU.
I admit to staying out of GD most of the time, so unless serving on a jury often
miss many of the discussions where emotions are running high. The I/P issue
certainly qualifies for that.
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)The belief or behavior hostile toward Jews just because they are Jewish. It may take the form of religious teachings that proclaim the inferiority of Jews, for instance, or political efforts to isolate, oppress, or otherwise injure them. It may also include prejudiced or stereotyped views about Jews.
http://archive.adl.org/hate-patrol/antisemitism.html#.U-AhbfldXw8
I have not seen this kind of behavior on DU. I see more of a disagreement on this conflict in Gaza. that's not anti-Semetism
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and posts aren't always alerted and when they are, jurors often don't see the anti-Semitism for what it is or jurors let it stand as a statement against the current conflict.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The only purpose for such comparisons is to raise the specter of the holocaust and use it in an inflammatory way to upset Jews who are understandably sensitive about the Nazi era. The comparisons are so far off as to be ridiculous hyperbole.
I think those comparisons are a BIG tell.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)but I agree with you, that often it seems like an intentionally hateful, anti-
semetic remark meant to inflame.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You don't want Israel to exist, you hate Jews in general and are anti-Semitic. 
Criticizing the Likud is terrorism at this point (according to the Likud), never mind that significant numbers of Israeli's don't support Netanyahu's action, and those that are in his party.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Is that why you are being mocking?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that I am an anti-Semite and mocking Jews?
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Then what were you trying to say?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I have great respect for you, and consider you a friend. If the level of false accusations hasn't been made clear to you, they were made clear to me.
It makes us both sad, and casualties of this conflict because everyone leaps to defend and condemn.
I condemn actions by governments. With much anger.
I do not condemn those that are governed by said government. Likud is not a good path. I don't condemn every Israeli or every Jew for condemning Likud. I also don't think every Palestinian is a member of Hamas. Nor should you associate me with anyone other than a person with antipathy to the Likud party.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Apparently, YOU however, DON'T see that nor do you see the ACTUAL anti-Semitism which has been spewed on these pages in the past weeks. I took your post as offensively as I took to the ones telling gays who were angry and upset about Obama not standing firm on LGBT rights, the MCCurklin (however you spell his name) thing and several other issues that were "just crying because we didn't get our pony." If you didn't mean it that way, then that is good, but there has been an INCREASE in anti-Semitism here as well as outright bigotry, and because you or others "don't see it" doesn't mean it isn't real nor are we "paranoid whiners."
I am done with this thread.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I laid out who I accused of being the villains in this fight - the Likud, and their government. Not Israelis and certainly not Jews.
You are a good friend, and a great DUer, but when the day comes that I am condemned because I speak out against right-wing hatred, I will accept it with sadness, but accept it all the same.
Then I will speak up again.
kpete
(71,986 posts)just want PEACE
kp
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)It totaled to 101%. 73% said "no", 23% said "yes" and 3% were Unsure
I'd like to thank everyone who participated (including Behind the Aegis, from whom I'm guessing I won't be getting a response on Post 162). If I have one takeaway from the entire thread, it's that we could all be more guarded in our word choice when posting on this topic. I'd also respectfully assert that no matter what your feelings on which sides are right and wrong, making comparisons to the actions of the Nazis is unhelpful.
Pray for peace and justice. It might help. It can't hurt.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)I didn't think you were interested. I did have something written and when I went to post, DU crapped out on me. I am sure that has never happened to anyone but me. I just didn't get around to re-writing the post. Are you really interested in being educated or are you simply mocking anti-Semitism, as seems to be en vogue?
ETA: If you are sincerely interested, then pop over tot he Jewish group and repost your last one, and I will get to it tonight. But I am making one more post and this I am done with this mishagos.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I apologize. When I posted that, it was intended as snark; I see where it comes across as a call out. That was not my intent.
Yes. I was interested. I mock neither the Israeli's nor the Palestinians, and I mock neither Muslims nor Jews. I told you truthfully -- I have people close to me on the polar opposite sides of this discussion.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Wonder where the individual respondents demographically line up?