Think the "When is Genocide Permissible" piece was a fluke? Think again.

[pa28]

Last edited Sat Aug 2, 2014, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Here is the Jerusalem Post from 07/24

Into the fray: Why Gaza must go

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Into-the-fray-Why-Gaza-must-go-368862

The only durable solution requires dismantling Gaza, humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population, and extension of Israeli sovereignty over the region.

The only "durable solution"? It seems some of those who should never forget are having a serious memory lapse. I don't believe a majority of Israelis feel this way but it's disturbingly close to mainstream.

[magical thyme]

1. sickening.

[Scootaloo]

2. Written by Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Knesset

basically, imagine John Boehner writing something like this.

or at least try. As low as my opinion of Boehner is, I think even he has standards above that level

[onenote]

32. Wrong. Written by Martin Sherman

An extreme right winger who served as a low level operative in the administration of Yitzhak Shamir more than 22 years ago.

To be sure, Feiglin, who is another extreme right winger, probably agrees. But he didn't write this piece. And the views of Feiglin and Sherman -- both of whom think Netanyahu is "soft" -- are not representative of the mainstream in Israel.

[Scootaloo]

34. Ah, my mistake. I was thinking of something Moshe DID write

http://www.jewishisrael.org/outline-solution-israels-gaza-problem-moshe-feiglin/?utm_source=Moshe%20Feiglin%27s%20Outline%20for%20Solution%20in%20Gaza&utm_campaign=update&utm_medium=email

It all kind of bleeds together. Thanks for the correction though. You'd think I'd know seeing as I made an OP about the Sherman article a few days ago.

[bemildred]

43. You mean it's still there? Wow. nt

[Scootaloo]

48. Well, it's the website of Feiglin's group in Likud, Manhigut Yehudit

Can't imagine why it would be taken down.

[bemildred]

49. Yeah, what's the problem, anyway?

[Scootaloo]

50. Well, I meant I don't imagine he'd take his own shit down

He seems like a guy who's proud to be shameless, y'know?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. "humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population"?

After slaughtering a lot of non-belligerent Palestinian kids...how many of the remaining Palestinians aren't a bit grumpy? And, after "humanely" removing those few, what happens to the grumpy ones?

Also, "humanely removing" them to where?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

24. Ye olde 'ethnic cleansing'.

No doubt to some other, even more worthless piece of land, maybe the southernmost tip of the land Israel lays claim to, unless they plan to shove them entirely out of the Israeli/Palestinian sphere. Getting them away from the shoreline would reduce Israel's blockade costs and allow the taking of all of the petrochemical reserves off the shoreline all at one go.

[treestar]

26. Once I was debating it in another place

And I was answered that the neighboring Arab countries should take them. They have the same religion and speak the same language.

[wryter2000]

29. I've heard that, too

Only the version I got was "They're all Muslims."

To which I replied, "Then we should take half a million people from Central America, right? We're all Christians."

[treestar]

46. Yes. And imagine we were informed by the UN

we should take half a million English. Or worse, half a million Canadians. (kidding)

[hifiguy]

54. That last question is not one you are supposed to ask.

[mr blur]

4. Hate to say this, but

"durable" sounds suspiciously like "final".

[HooptieWagon]

6. "durable solution" = "final solution"

Its no coincidence how similar the rhetoric of far right-wing regimes is.... and the similarity of tactics.

[KG]

5. land theft, ethnic cleansing: the real agenda.

[GeoWilliam750]

31. I sometimes wonder whether

The greatest existential threat to Israel is the absence of an existential threat to Israel.

Without a constant external crisis, the Israeli government would come under tremendous internal pressure, so if there were no external threats, one must be manufactured.

Distraction, the first choice of almost every government in the world. It is so much easier than solving problems, and in the case of "Protective Edge", the Americans fund a lot of it.

[nomorenomore08]

47. In a sense, the Israeli government is its own worst enemy.

As they seem intent on obliterating any remaining goodwill in the court of international opinion.

[Spazito]

7. This is a clarion call for ethnic cleansing

ethnic cleansing

ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/194242/ethnic-cleansing

[4now]

8. "durable solution"

Because final solution sounds so bad.

[sadoldgirl]

9. Interesting, that this editorial

in the Jerusalem Post has not been deleted. So the Knesset is on board with this kind of policy, and so must be the paper.

[pa28]

11. This one is more politely worded and caused no outcry but the idea is the same.

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza is the only "durable solution".

[malaise]

10. Why do you think the Israeli murderers have flattened Gaza

Look for settlements in the not too distant future. For the record according to the polls, the majority of people in Israel support Bibi the war criminal.

[cpwm17]

15. No, the settlements act as human shields for the Palestinians

That interferes with Israel's mass-murder operations.

[easychoice]

12. 1897

that's when the plan to form a jewish majority was launched.
Removal of arabs has always been the real goal.

[cpwm17]

17. Yes, that's true

Remove them and then blame the victim, after which, remove some more. It's an endless cycle.

[pa28]

20. It seems the divide and conquer plan has succeeded in spectacular fashion.

Sounds like a growing number of Israelis are ready to finish the job.

[easychoice]

23. divide and conquer is really Kill and Steal in this instance.

explain how divide and conquer applies here.

[onenote]

53. And yet it was the Jews that accepted the post WWII two-state partition and the Arabs that rejected

and launched an attack on the new state of Israel in the hope of destroying it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

13. Hopefully for this guy, "non-belligerent Arab" doesn't mean dead

Honestly, how do you tell who is a non-belligerent Arab and one who has ever raised a weapon in anger?

[easychoice]

19. leave and don't come back or we will kill you now.

nice choices,
Oh! we will starve you,turn off your water,electricity and medical supplies.We will cage you bomb your roads and power lines.When we are done you will run screaming and never want to return.That is the intent.It has always been the intent

[LittleBlue]

14. "humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population" = ethnic cleansing

The author is advocating the identical concept of judenrein.

[malaise]

16. I love the use of humanitarian relocation

Orwellian - they think we're all 'oxymorons'.

[AgingAmerican]

18. The borders between the Palestinian areas and Israel

Were relatively open until that idiot Ariel Sharon visited the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 2000 with a few hundred riot police. He knew what the result would be given it is one of islams holiest sites. He knew it would collapse the peace, which is what he wanted. The peace has never returned since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada#Sharon_visits_Temple_Mount

The whole thing has been manufactured by the right wing of the Israelis.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

22. Ariel Sharon - another gem

Where are the Yitzhak Rabins in the current generation of Israeli politicians?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

25. no idiot he.

He got what he wanted, didn't he? Just like Netanyahu is getting what he wants now. The unity government is down the tubes, another generation of Gazans have been taught to loathe Israel, Hamas will get new recruits so that the useless rocket strikes will continue as pretext for the continued oppression and land theft.

An actual path to peace is the last thing any far right member of the Israeli government wants. It would destroy their power position, and let more moderates get elected and take power.

Same way the RWers in the US play too. They want us forever embroiled in foreign wars and pissing off small countries to create terrorists so that they get to play 'tough of defense' and more useful idiots will vote them into power.

[bemildred]

44. Yeah, he started this shit.

No question about it. The end of Oslo was the beginning of this mess.

[trocar]

21. I was amazed

I have worked in Israel for extended assignments on and off for the past eight years. Most of the Israelis I interacted with seemed to only hold only disdain for the Palestinians. To bring up the idea of genocide, in two Israeli news sources, puts my faith in the human race at the bottom of the barrel. I watched Noah yesterday, seems like it's time for a higher power to step in again.

[booley]

27. Genocide is a logical conclusion

ISrael clearly wants the land.
They also want to be a "Jewish" state.

So all those non-jews living on land Israel wants is a bit of a problem. Especially when the current residents are more and more determined to stay.

That Hamas actually is a violent and extreme group just helps Israel get what it ultimately wants.

I imagine the racism against arabic Israelis also will increase over time.

That a group that has been abused should become the abusers when given the chance may be ironic but is hardly surprising.

[LeftishBrit]

28. Martin Sherman is revolting. I've come across him before

As I said elsewhere, he is a far-right extremist who opposes the two-state solution ('the two-state psychosis'); is hateful about anyone who supports it; thinks that Begin was an appeaser; frequently attacks Dershowitz for being a two-stater; considers that Israel is endangered by its 'loony lethal left' including such as Livni and Lapid; and takes the classic far-right view that evil powerful elites in Israeli media, politics, etc. are imposing their left-wing will on the people. He uses 'moderation' as a term of abuse.

I wouldn't say he was 'mainstream', any more than Ann Coulter in America or Richard Littlejohn in the UK; but everywhere seems to have its hate-merchant journalists, always ready to make any bad situation even worse.

[JDPriestly]

30. The Palestinians are sending rockets into Israel and building tunnels into Israel.

Those are acts of war that are intended to elicit acts of war.

And as I have said so many times, wars end in three ways:

1) one side unilaterally pulls out;
2) the two sides negotiate AND ENFORCE a peace with terms that neither side likes all that much; or
3) one side conquers the other. (WWII, the allies conquered the Axis Powers.)

Palestinians cannot allow their citizens to send rockets, however ineffective, into Israel or build tunnels into Israel and expect Israel to just take it.

In fact, the Palestinians know very well what response their rockets and tunnels will elicit from Israel.

If one of our neighboring countries sent rockets into the US or built tunnels for military or kidnapping purposes into the US, we would retaliate with force.

It's called national sovereignty. Israel views itself as defending its right to live within its borders in peace. Most nations would do precisely what Israel is doing.

People are only getting one side of the story on DU, and there are two sides.

The Palestinians have never proved that they could negotiate the terms of a peace settlement against their own people.

That is the challenge.

Israel can defeat the Palestinians and may see this as their last chance to do it.

Taking one side against the other does not help the Palestinians. It just feeds the war on both sides.

What is happening to the Palestinians is tragic, but predictable. I don't know why they allow the terrorists and extremists among them to continue to harass Israel.

If Cuba had done this to us, there would be an empty space where Cuba is now. It is simply how countries work.

Israel sees itself painted into a corner. It has the right to exist under the UN mandate.

Let's stop the rabble-rousing on DU and try to move both sides to negotiate peace. That is the best way to save the lives and culture of the Palestinians.

[truedelphi]

33. Well if so many tens of thousands of Jews who

were wanting their own state had crossed the border into the USA, circa 1948, and had their militarized men show up at American doorsteps, telling the home owners they had a few hours to get their things and leave their homes, or else face death, what would Americans in that region have done?

Occupation is Occupation is Occupation. Yes, this was a UN sanctioned Occupation, but the result has been to leave the US with Israel as its only friend in the area, whereas before the nation state-creation of Israel, all the nations in the Middle East were friendly to the USA.

[JDPriestly]

41. Israel was founded based on a United Nations mandate.

The Palestinians fought against that mandate over and over and ended up losing in I think all but one instance.

The Palestinians need to work for peace so that they can live in the are in peace. Israel exists. That is the reality. It is not going away. It could repatriate land to the Palestinians if the Palestinians could guarantee the safety of Israel from the terrorism of Palestinian extremists.

The Palestinians have friends in word only in the area. Violence on both sides is being silently condemned.

The situation of the Palestinians is very sad, but they are in the position of a divorced wife who rejects making a settlement and eventually ends up with nothing. You have to make a deal. Sooner or later we have to live in peace with our families and neighbors. That's life.

The Palestinians need to negotiate for the return of land over a period of years and in the meantime prove that they can keep the peace.

Israel has tried to return land before, I think in 2005, but the gesture has never been rewarded with peace.

Do you really think that the region should kick the Israelis out? I don't.

[truedelphi]

42. I wonder what would happen had a group of Native Americans descend on the front

Jewish family's home, and started to explain to them that the UN had sanctioned them taking over the residence, and that they should be out by 4 Pm, or else expect to be killed. And, yeah, sure this home was built by the people's grandparents, but too bad - be out by 4 Pm.

That was the reality that the Palestinians faced, over in their own homeland, on account of the immoral decision that the UN made.

And this was a decision made in part to tackle into consideration the oil needs of Great Britain and The USA.

Does that fact that an immoral decision was enacted decades ago make it right?

We enslaved Japanese people in our concentration camps during World War II, and apparently it was legal but not moral. In light of that, the US government compensated each and every Japanese concentration camp survivor with some
$ 20,000 or $ 30,000, (although this was done years later.)

In a fair world, the word "Occupation" would be accepted by the Israelis, and they would offer up compensation for those whose family members were killed, and whose land they had taken. But instead they are in denial that they have done anything wrong.

Instead, this gross miscarriage of all that is holy occurred, legally due to the UN's actions, and then propaganda-wise, due to how sympathetic people the world over felt about the Jewish people having undergone the Holocaust. But why is it the Palestinians paid the price?

Anyway, you know full well that a people simply don't overlook an injustice, especially if those who perpetrated the injustice refuse to admit they did so!

And no, I don't want either side to have to be driven into the sea. But the fact that the UN allowed for Palestine to become Israel, rather than a two nation state, stinks to high heaven.

[JDPriestly]

45. Would you send all the refugees who were relocated after WWII

back to where they came from or would you just send the Jewish WWII refugees back to where they came -- which for many of them was from concentration camps or ghettos?

Would the repatriation just apply to Palestine? Would it just apply to Jews?

[pa28]

35. I used to feel the way you do.

I can't rationalize this:

[JDPriestly]

38. It isn't a matter of rationalizing anything.

It is a matter of finding a way to peace that allows the Palestinians and the Israelis to enjoy that peace side by side.

The rockets and tunnels don't contribute to peace.

The wall and the shield contributed to peace, but the or some of the Palestinians built tunnels to circumvent the wall and the shield.

Israel reacted as any country would.

A cease-fire was called for Friday and just around the beginning of the cease-fire, the Palestinians killed and kidnapped Israelis.

They have to negotiate peace, but it will take good will, trust and the resolve to enfoce the peace on both sides if peace is to succeed.

[BillZBubb]

51. Baloney JD. Everything you post seems to be a rationalization and a false equivalency.

First, you are incorrect about "kidnapped Israelis", that was a Netanyahu propaganda point that got quickly shot down.

Israel, for all the propaganda you regurgitate, is ILLEGALLY occupying the West Bank and controlling Gaza. Israel is the vastly stronger power. When the Palestinians as they have often in the past tried to negotiate a FAIR peace, Israel has scuttled it at every opportunity.

The Oslo Accords, which the Palestinians agreed to with the Rabin government, were almost immediately broken by the Israelis after Rabin's assassination by a right wing Israeli. The right wing government that succeeded him took any not clearly defined clause in the Accords and insisted that they be interpreted in an extremely one sided way. No negotiations. For instance, the agreements called for a "security zone" between Israel and the Palestinian state. The Israeli right insisted the security zone included almost all of the West Bank. The Accords were done after that, to the delight of the Israeli right. Settlements continued instead of ending.

When the Palestinians have sought peace, they are always met with unreasonable Israeli demands. And the settlements continue. The Palestinians know from long experience that the Israeli will NEVER negotiate in good faith.

When the Palestinians have turned to violence as a result of the theft of their land and dignity, the settlements continue. Palestinians are reacting like any group would to occupation, mistreatment, and repression--they fight back however they can.

If, instead of recycling Israeli propaganda, people like you actually took Israel to task for the illegal occupation, the Israelis might be pushed to create a fair deal. But as long as they've got people like you spreading their propaganda points, why should they? They'll get to keep the land they covet.

[jberryhill]

55. You can't rationalize what?

You can't rationalize posting a picture of Warsaw and pretending it is Gaza?

http://www.deconcrete.org/2011/03/06/building-the-trace-of-emptiness/

CITY OF RUINS (Miasto Ruin, 2010) is the result of several months of graphic virtuosity and two months of continuous rendering. The Warsaw Rising Museum (Piotr Śliwowski) and Platige Image (Marcin Kobylecki), together with a team of history consultants and 40 specialists, have created an unusual 3D film that documents the shocking sea of rubble that Warsaw was reduced to during World War II, as seen from an imaginary flight with an Allied aeroplane at real speed.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. What 'rabble-rousing'? Daring to be appalled by Feiglin's continued calls for ethnic cleansing?

Sorry, but despite yr attempts to paint everything as being the fault of the Palestinians, that's not the case. And of course it's predictable that an extreme RW government like Netanyahu's would indiscriminately kill large numbers of civilians. Just like it was predictable that the US under Bushco indiscriminately killed large numbers of Iraqis and Afghans. The difference between the latter and the former is with the latter I didn't see people appear in threads absolving the US of blame.

[JDPriestly]

37. In wars, people are killed. That is what war is about.

The alternative to war is peace.

It takes effort and sacrifice, sometimes of a people's dreams, to make peace.

Israel cannot trust Palestinians. That is the problem.

Israel is well organized, democratically run and therefore functions with tthe support of the majority of Israelis and has a well disciplined army.

Palestinians are poorly organized, do not have much tradition of democratic government and do not have a well disciplined army but rather have terrorists.

Palestinians were hitting Israel with rockets and building tunnels under
Israel.

Although Palestinians are the underdog, they can easily incite Israel to war.

What more could Israel do to deal peacefully with the Palestinian aggression than they have done? They built a shield to keep the rockets out. (The rockets got in anyway.) They built a wall to keep Palestinians out. (The Palestinians dug tunnels.) In every confrontation with the Israelis, the Palestinians' territory has shrunk. It is a horrible thing, but the Palestinians need to show they can keep a cease fire. On Friday they failed that test as far as we know.

The war has to stop.

But it takes both sides to stop the aggression and hate.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. I asked you what rabble-rousing you were referring to?

Because yr response to an OP where an Israeli politician advocating the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was a bit bizarre, imo. No condemnation at all of Feiglin, just blame the Palestinians and throw in a few platitudes and 'war is war' stuff. Iraq and Afghanistan were also 'war is war'.

So. Apart from placing all the blame for everything on the Palestinians (interesting how you only say that they're aggressive, but insist that Israel has no choice but to bomb the crap out of them), do you have anything else? Y'know, like condemning Feiglin's call for ethnic cleansing?

[JDPriestly]

40. The rabble-rousing on both sides of the issue.

[BillZBubb]

52. Again with the false equivalency. Don't you ever bother to think about the overall situation?

What you are really doing is covering for Israel every time you post. You might as well be open about it.

[jberryhill]

56. And what of the "belligerent population"?

Such as someone who might become belligerent at the idea of humanitarian relocation.

We kill all of them, right?

And that won't produce any more belligerent ones?