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Michigander_Life

(549 posts)
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:18 PM Aug 2014

There is nothing wrong with Porn & Prostitution

Both industries should be completely legal, regulated and taxed. It is disheartening to see so many people try to force their morality on consenting adults. There are even self-proclaimed feminists trying limit what women choose to do with their own bodies. It's simply insane. Luckily most of the folks on this website expressing such draconian, anti-women views are quickly shouted down.

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There is nothing wrong with Porn & Prostitution (Original Post) Michigander_Life Aug 2014 OP
No one on this site has ever been "quickly shouted down". Scuba Aug 2014 #1
And no one ever should be. daleanime Aug 2014 #17
The OP maybe should be. cui bono Aug 2014 #166
Five Strikes within ninety days will definitely mufflle the tone, though. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #168
This one would do better with a pizza. cui bono Aug 2014 #170
did I hear Pizza? Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #172
They may enjoy those 14 slices. cui bono Aug 2014 #175
Special made just for him Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #176
Not true. hifiguy Aug 2014 #70
This message was self-deleted by its author AverageJoe90 Aug 2014 #204
Just going to post this here. redqueen Aug 2014 #2
Chris Hedges the plagiarist. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #14
And... surprise surprise... opiate69 Aug 2014 #19
The bottom line is, porn isn't going anywhere. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #22
Ah, yes, Ms. Dworkin liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #146
That's been debunked at length on DU alone. n/t cui bono Aug 2014 #164
No, the debunking has been debunked. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #178
From what I read it has been debunked. As you say, she may not have said those exact words. cui bono Aug 2014 #183
She doesn't represent anything but the fringe of the fringe. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #186
This message was self-deleted by its author YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #189
The point as I see it is to enlighten people to the nature of most porn and how it can skew one's cui bono Aug 2014 #192
I originally mentioned Dworkin only in the context of her ineffectual battle vs. the porn industry Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #193
So you really don't think that most porn is about a woman being objectified cui bono Aug 2014 #196
The facial person also thinks "men ejaculating in womens mouths" indicates oppression. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #197
So you didn't bother to read that post at the link then. cui bono Aug 2014 #199
Yes, I did. Again, you seem to think that if I'm just exposed to enough supposedly self-evident Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #200
Well you mentioned something from a different post, so it didn't seem that you read what I linked to cui bono Aug 2014 #202
Eh, please don't tell me what I am or am not worried about. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #207
And now you are being dismissive about the treatment of a gender cui bono Aug 2014 #229
Just because someone says "this bothers me", doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to be taken Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #239
You've missed on all points. cui bono Aug 2014 #270
And you don't care that many people DON'T find porn degrading to women. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #278
I'm not causing any harm to anyone who doesn't find porn degrading. cui bono Aug 2014 #283
Sure. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #284
That takedown bordered on genius, sir hifiguy Aug 2014 #279
"...you probably have a deep fear of women having any voice at all." nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #245
It'd be nice if we could have these threads without the goofy armchair psychoanalysis Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #266
Yes, that would be a positive step, I agree. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #272
But you're fine with bringing up extremists who no one has quoted or is championing cui bono Aug 2014 #285
I think his bringing up Dworkin was somewhat questionable, yes. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #288
I'm basing it off his words. cui bono Aug 2014 #268
I dunno... While I do think "degrading" is in the eye of the beholder, I have to say nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #244
I think Max Hardcore is an asshole and absolutely a misogynist, but I also think he peaked Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #267
Fair enough. I realize the worst material isn't necessarily typical, though I would argue nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #271
And there's a lot of shitty music out there. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #273
Absolutely not. I'm with you all the way there. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #274
Dworkin was seriously mentally ill from the get go. hifiguy Aug 2014 #233
And no one ever wants to talk about her alliances of convenience with right-wingers. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #242
I would say that, if anything, is the greatest strike against her. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #247
MacKinnon and her ilk didn't care hifiguy Aug 2014 #275
Something like the old adage about going so far left you wind up on the right? nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #276
Eeyup. Exactly. hifiguy Aug 2014 #277
And . . . under the bus BainsBane Aug 2014 #92
Hardly. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #99
Wise men these people. JaydenD Aug 2014 #65
You reminded me of this redqueen Aug 2014 #84
yikes. “ejaculation on a woman’s face” isn't even on my list.... dionysus Aug 2014 #88
Well, obviously it's what every man who watches porn has been programmed to want. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #100
Heh. liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #148
This is such a narrow and inaccurate view of pron woolldog Aug 2014 #101
The linked author also thinks "men ejaculating in womens' mouths" indicates oppression. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #103
Found a pretty good critique of the good "Dr"'s film... opiate69 Aug 2014 #124
Go over to redtube or youporn or wherever and count them redqueen Aug 2014 #135
The documentary filmmaker you link upthread apparently considers blowjobs "degrading" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #161
Don't watch it anymore then AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #227
Should we also ignore racist content online? redqueen Aug 2014 #237
I would say AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #289
I would say sunlight is the best disinfectant redqueen Aug 2014 #291
I looked at the front pages of the sites you referenced- for research, of course- Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #269
It would seem undeniable that a large portion of porn is deeply misogynistic. Threedifferentones Aug 2014 #132
Thank you SO VERY MUCH for your thoughtful, informed comment. redqueen Aug 2014 #136
I wasn't even going to read this thread Kali Aug 2014 #143
That's the kind of post that gives me hope. nt redqueen Aug 2014 #151
Thank you for asking the question and looking at the larger context. excellent post. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #167
You rock. Many thanks for your perspective. Nt riderinthestorm Aug 2014 #179
Great post YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #188
I also want to acknowledge the excellence of this post. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #246
All threads supporting porn remind me of this: cui bono Aug 2014 #165
Thank you for posting that. redqueen Aug 2014 #212
"An anti-objectification, anti-porn, anti-prostitution feminist." Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #81
I'm with you. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #144
I used to love porn. redqueen Aug 2014 #150
If women freely choose to be involved liberalhistorian Aug 2014 #145
This isn't about any individual or what they like. redqueen Aug 2014 #149
I guess it depends on whether you care about women. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #211
OMG. Does Noam never learn from past experience? Violet_Crumble Aug 2014 #205
This from the nipple alerter. newcriminal Aug 2014 #3
If you remember correctly, I wasn't against the nipple Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #4
"I love nipples." rug Aug 2014 #11
Who doesn't? Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #13
No one but you don't see them exclaimg about it in public. rug Aug 2014 #15
No, that's not common courtesy. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #16
"Nipples are wonderful." rug Aug 2014 #18
Who doesn't? Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #20
At first glance, I thought he was wheeling a loaf of bread. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #25
Here's the bread rug Aug 2014 #33
"Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #51
Probably that guy in the Tosh.0 video clip Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author chrisa Aug 2014 #48
Worst. Superhero. Ever. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #7
Consenting adults should be free to make their own decisions about their lives and bodies. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #5
Precisely. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #8
If they are of sound mind, I agree completely. hifiguy Aug 2014 #86
define *sound mind* just for clarification, please. legal terminology? Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #169
I tell you what sound mind doesn't mean- it doesn't mean "anyone who only does what I would" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #201
thank you, Mr. DeMontague. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #210
I told you, i don't pay attention to personalities, here. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #240
Well, the legal definition derived from the M'Naughten case hifiguy Aug 2014 #232
Of course they should. But that doesn't mean we can't critique the sex industry nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #248
This ^ ^ ^ Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Aug 2014 #254
Part of my problem with these discussions- and really, if there's anything more pointless than a Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #264
All very true. Really, it's more "unbridled capitalism" I have a problem with than anything. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #265
You're braver than I thought mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #6
"You came in that thing?" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #10
Glad someone got it mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #12
Challenge me to a nerd-off, will you? Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #21
That would be mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #23
Dang, I was kinf of hoping this would go on a little longer mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #87
"That's what she said!" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #162
Well, I can't beat that mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #191
Dont beat yourself up. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #241
i think there can be plenty wrong with it but criminalizing it is not the way to go La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2014 #9
The more forbidden the fruit…. safeinOhio Aug 2014 #44
You always make such good sense. hifiguy Aug 2014 #73
Good post AuntPatsy Aug 2014 #109
Amen.... daleanime Aug 2014 #190
+1000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #249
Why taxed? leftstreet Aug 2014 #24
Why shouldn't it be? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #27
Was that the rallying cry behind legalizing abortion? leftstreet Aug 2014 #30
Oh, you were asking why is tax it specifically added as a talking point. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #34
Ah. 'Look, we can all make money off this!' leftstreet Aug 2014 #36
That's how you get the people further right onboard with anything ;) Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #40
Because taxes can be used for good things Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #29
So you're saying prostitution is a health risk? n/t leftstreet Aug 2014 #31
It has certain health risks associated with it. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #35
Sure. Your OP said there was 'nothing wrong with it' leftstreet Aug 2014 #39
There isn't anything wrong with it. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #45
I'd certainly consider it such. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #37
so should be ban people from having mulitple sex partners even if no money changes hands? dsc Aug 2014 #131
I didn't see the word 'ban' anywhere in my comment. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #160
So much wrong with society can be traced to poor education, or the lack of it entirely. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #250
Well, as much as I'd like to blame a lot of it on the RW Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #252
I hear you on that. I'm coming up on 3 decades myself (in October) and I already feel nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #257
One thing I realized about college... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #259
Oh please. No offense. But you're still really young. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #293
Income tax and SS and Medicare deductions would be my guess Blaukraut Aug 2014 #43
Declarations of absolutes are almost always a mistake. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #26
+1000000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #251
Porn can be addictive, especially if you mix drugs with it and it can randys1 Aug 2014 #28
Tying your shoes can be addictive, if you mix it with high-grade heroin. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #243
The biggest thing wrong with prostitution... regnaD kciN Aug 2014 #32
Wrong. See post 55. Squinch Aug 2014 #57
Yes, and #68. nt stevenleser Aug 2014 #75
Legalization increases trafficking and slaves. seabeyond Aug 2014 #78
Consenting adults should be able to fuck however they want, money or no money. phleshdef Aug 2014 #106
Are you arguing with yourself? You post has nothing to do with mine, seabeyond Aug 2014 #113
I was speaking to the notion that whether its true or not that legal prostitution... phleshdef Aug 2014 #115
Interesting to know slavery holds such little signifance to you. seabeyond Aug 2014 #116
Strawman. It holds immense significance to me... phleshdef Aug 2014 #121
Trafficking/slavery was my only issue so I hardly see it as a mere... Strawman. Done... seabeyond Aug 2014 #122
Really? Is that the way you read my statement? Really?! phleshdef Aug 2014 #123
This message was self-deleted by its author AverageJoe90 Aug 2014 #203
Since prostitution will always exist it would probably be best if it were regulated CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #38
The biggest irony here is that they make this argument for abortion LittleBlue Aug 2014 #42
Great post. Completely accurate. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #46
Feminists want to regulate porn and criminalize only the buying of sex. redqueen Aug 2014 #47
It's a new spin on an old idea LittleBlue Aug 2014 #49
Listen to a pimp? I don't fucking think so. redqueen Aug 2014 #50
You would rather persist with an idea that has never worked? LittleBlue Aug 2014 #60
She's in favor of making it legal to sell sex, but illegal to buy it, as in Sweden. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #253
This really is the only thing that matters here hifiguy Aug 2014 #77
I'm curious as to how specifically you define "regulate" Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #52
The "who decides" question is what makes this entire line of thought hifiguy Aug 2014 #79
It was figured out a while back that "censorship" doesn't play well. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #80
I know it well. hifiguy Aug 2014 #85
Your post #79 need to be put into woolldog Aug 2014 #105
I found mysellf wondering how far from Bluebook I had hifiguy Aug 2014 #140
Greater protections for workers. Which we need in *every* industry, not just porn. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #255
You're describing puritans, not feminists. Thought you should know. Michigander_Life Aug 2014 #128
This feminist wants to do away with porn and prostitution. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #213
Glad to hear from you redqueen Aug 2014 #214
The older I get the more radical I get. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #215
Same here... redqueen Aug 2014 #216
I cannot for the life of me understand why any woman wants to get married. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #218
Because girls are conditioned to be nice. redqueen Aug 2014 #219
This was funny. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2014 #290
Bravo! hifiguy Aug 2014 #74
Wow. That is such a wrong and disgusting analogy. cui bono Aug 2014 #194
legalizing prostitution would not help women much, unless.... Takket Aug 2014 #53
I personally think we do a disservice to addicts when we label all potentially problematic behavior Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #56
which is pretty much exactly why I said porn addiction is between a person and their doctor. Takket Aug 2014 #66
I agree. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #67
Agree... Takket Aug 2014 #71
The word no longer has any meaning. hifiguy Aug 2014 #76
There can be a lot wrong with both JaydenD Aug 2014 #54
This study has been posted here on DU over and over and over, yet none of you valiant anti-prudery Squinch Aug 2014 #55
You're talking about global trafficking leftstreet Aug 2014 #61
Yes. But if a woman doesn't want other women or children to be trafficked, she's just a prude. Squinch Aug 2014 #133
That article includes many potential pros and cons of legalization. stevenleser Aug 2014 #68
Legalizing prostitution in Germany increased human trafficking. mythology Aug 2014 #120
As the snippet I posted noted. Legalization tends to increase inflows of trafficking stevenleser Aug 2014 #147
Your assertion that the article says that the probability of inflow is 13% is wrong. Squinch Aug 2014 #155
I stand corrected on that minor point. But the article does not support ANY of your points. stevenleser Aug 2014 #156
Oh, jeez, steven, that's pretty lame. So if you open up a huge new market for trafficked people Squinch Aug 2014 #157
It's not lame, it's the study you posted. They were very careful to state it that way for a reason stevenleser Aug 2014 #158
That would require giving a shit BainsBane Aug 2014 #127
Absolutely. And that's not going to happen. As you say, "not in my back yard" and "not Squinch Aug 2014 #153
Thanks for posting that! cui bono Aug 2014 #174
I heard iceland was going to ban all internet porn, and some people got VERY excited! Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #58
Yeah, that was an overreach, and a rather foolish one. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #258
It was more like a trial balloon Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #292
Maybe not in your utopia... hunter Aug 2014 #59
lol. nt. ecstatic Aug 2014 #62
I'm guessing Torture Porn is your thing whatchamacallit Aug 2014 #63
! he walked right into that one... dionysus Aug 2014 #89
If Obama does it. cui bono Aug 2014 #171
Be that as it may . . . Brigid Aug 2014 #64
Feh! Try working as a prostitute youself, and MineralMan Aug 2014 #69
They pay me to keep my cloths on davidpdx Aug 2014 #118
Kind of a funny picture considering he was an addict and a prostitute walked over his body CBGLuthier Aug 2014 #141
Agreed. hifiguy Aug 2014 #72
Strawman argument. cui bono Aug 2014 #231
How do you feel about the organ trade? Just consenting adults? DanTex Aug 2014 #82
Yes. After all, people who donate their organs do it because they like to meet people. They're Squinch Aug 2014 #180
On porn and prostitution: I trust Larry Flynt Capt. Obvious Aug 2014 #83
Yep. and when it comes to the safety of tobacco, I trust the RJ Reynolds company. nt redqueen Aug 2014 #90
Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #91
Regarding Flynt: redqueen Aug 2014 #134
Nothing wrong unless you count BainsBane Aug 2014 #93
Your link seems to be bad Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #95
It works for me BainsBane Aug 2014 #96
You were right, apologies Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #98
The paper is open access BainsBane Aug 2014 #104
Got it, thanks Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #107
It worked for me = Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #112
I assume anyone who opposes legalizing prostitution also favors banning construction? brooklynite Aug 2014 #108
Read the paper linked above BainsBane Aug 2014 #114
In principle, I agree with you Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #94
Thank you for at least giving the issue some thought. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #260
Well, you are ok with touture also! nt Logical Aug 2014 #97
blah blah blah Kali Aug 2014 #102
Yeah SSDD. Rex Aug 2014 #139
It is really very odd how he is parading his motives. Squinch Aug 2014 #154
I was taught that when taking True/False tests that an absolute statement will usually be a False Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #110
Not so cut and dry considering the easy access children have to it, frankly I do AuntPatsy Aug 2014 #111
Nothing wrong? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #117
Decriminalization does not work well in practice where it has been tried. Squinch Aug 2014 #182
Thanks for this article on the effects of legalizing prostitution. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #184
All very nice. But when you legalize, trafficking increases. You can think in whatever terms you Squinch Aug 2014 #209
When you criminalize, suffering increases. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #217
When you criminalize, suffering does not increase in the same way that it does when you legalize. Squinch Aug 2014 #220
Trafficking is not just about prostitution. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #222
"You should be advocating for economic justice." And in the meantime, while we wait for economic Squinch Aug 2014 #223
I see you have your steady view. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #224
"A steady view" is one way to describe the act of facing the fact that legalization of prostitution Squinch Aug 2014 #225
Your question is loaded. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #234
The reality of the situation is loaded. As you can see, there is really only one choice. Squinch Aug 2014 #235
Your concerns are noted. Zorra Aug 2014 #119
... lol ... Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #125
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. R B Garr Aug 2014 #129
There's nothing wrong with burping and farting, either. MADem Aug 2014 #126
Torture too ... GeorgeGist Aug 2014 #130
It's a tough old world when people hold opinions different than yours LanternWaste Aug 2014 #137
You're trying too hard. Rex Aug 2014 #138
+1 Iris Aug 2014 #181
When those industries go unregulated, there sure as fuck is. Orsino Aug 2014 #142
+1000 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #261
Morality is always relative marshall Aug 2014 #152
I support both as well. Iron Man Aug 2014 #159
This message was self-deleted by its author cui bono Aug 2014 #163
Have you seriously not heard the stories about GIRLS being abducted and forced into prostitution? cui bono Aug 2014 #173
STOP! STOP LOOOOKING AT NAKED PEOPLE HAVING SEX! STOP IT STOP IT STOPPP IT AEEEEEEE Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #177
There's no need to read the rest of the thread. That clip says everything that needs to be said! Violet_Crumble Aug 2014 #206
Heh. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #208
Morality lessons from a torture apologist? historylovr Aug 2014 #185
"such draconian, anti-women views" YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #187
Even if both were completely free of exploitation, some would still be opposed to it. redgreenandblue Aug 2014 #195
Yeah. One only look at what acts are considered exploitative and degrading to see that. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #198
How would you know? Have we ever approached a condition where either was free of exploitation? Squinch Aug 2014 #221
Ted Bundy YarnAddict Aug 2014 #226
Ted Bundy said a lot of things Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #263
right, a liar and a sociopath. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #286
Nothing wrong with prostitution? War Horse Aug 2014 #228
There's nothing wrong with prostitution - why, wealthy women with all sorts of opportunities hedgehog Aug 2014 #230
When I see an old fat rich guy with a knockout babe ... rickford66 Aug 2014 #236
Shocker. A porn thread in GD goes 250 posts Boom Sound 416 Aug 2014 #238
300? How about 325, 325 350 okay. Can we get 400, 450 450, 475... Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #287
Legal, regulated, safe and taxed. Kurska Aug 2014 #256
It's. just. not. that. simple. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #262
I'm old fashioned, and I think the economic/exploitation problems across the board would be best Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #280
"...it's about people at the bottom not having enough options." nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #281
To be honest, though, some of these things have gone from pipe dreams to actual proposals Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #282
K and R bigwillq Aug 2014 #294

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
166. The OP maybe should be.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 08:21 PM
Aug 2014

Yesterday s/he was advocating torture as long as Obama ordered it.

Now advocating porn in a very odd manner.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
170. This one would do better with a pizza.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 08:27 PM
Aug 2014

Yesterday they were advocating torture as long as Obama ordered it. Said they "trust Obama to torture responsibly". Never did answer me when I asked what responsible torture is.

I couldn't decide if it was performance art or pure idiocy.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
172. did I hear Pizza?
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 08:30 PM
Aug 2014

Have a slice just warming for the dude ...

I'm pretty tired of any feminist critique of porn, in order for it to be seen as valid, the author is expected to like pornography and heartily endorse it in a disclaimer. The happy, fun, consent-filled, queer and woman-friendly stuff we see on the internet is a rarity compared to the hateful (not a strong enough word) disgusting and degrading reality that is the whole picture. Say you have a pizza, and 14 out of 16 slices are covered in broken glass and dog shit, but two slices are cheesy and perfectly delicious. If I'm reviewing it, should I have to make some statement about how great those pieces fit for human consumption were? Should I support Pope Benedicto's Dog Shit N Broken Glass Pizza Parlour because they manage to make two edible slices of pizza per pie? It not only distorts the reality of the situation, but also seriously diminishes the pain and suffering of the vast majority of human beings who've actually been through it (eaten pizza/been involved in the pornography industry.)

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
176. Special made just for him
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 08:44 PM
Aug 2014

and Yes, I saw the thread yesterday as I scrolled right on past it to something more to my taste

Response to Scuba (Reply #1)

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
22. The bottom line is, porn isn't going anywhere.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:34 PM
Aug 2014

Anyone who honestly believes otherwise is strenuously deluded.

The worst thing to happen to the porn industry wasn't Andrea Dworkin, it was the internet.

liberalhistorian

(20,814 posts)
146. Ah, yes, Ms. Dworkin
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:00 PM
Aug 2014

the man-bashing sex-hater, who considered ALL sex to be "rape" that "occupies women with a foreign body" no matter how much the woman may seem to enjoy or want it. As a woman who greatly enjoys sex with my wonderful hubby, I deeply resent that and call it the complete and utter fucking bullshit that it is.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
178. No, the debunking has been debunked.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 09:28 PM
Aug 2014

Whether or not she said that exact sentence, the gist of her works- as expressed by books like "our blood" and "intercourse"- is pretty clear.


"Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman"

"For men I suspect that this transformation begins in the place they most dread -- that is, in a limp penis. I think that men will have to give up their precious erections and begin to make love as women do together."



She had nothing resembling a mainstream attitude towards human sexuality, and specifically the act of penetrative sex, which she considered possibly "immune to reform".

And even her erstwhile allies felt she had serious mental issues and a break with reality by the time she died.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
183. From what I read it has been debunked. As you say, she may not have said those exact words.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 11:11 PM
Aug 2014

The gist of her works would then be subject to interpretation. Tbh, I never heard of her before the arguments on DU brought her up, but from what I read on here and the links I followed she is being either misrepresented/misinterpreted or being paraded as the face of feminism in an attempt to smear feminism as a whole because she is extreme.

Surely we can have a discussion of feminism without constantly trotting out someone like that, who doesn't represent the whole of feminism but just one view on it. I honestly haven't seen anyone use her as their source in defense of feminism on here.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
186. She doesn't represent anything but the fringe of the fringe.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 12:57 AM
Aug 2014

And, she formed alliances of convenience with people like Ed Meese to boot.

Which is why I'm constantly befuddled by the seemingly reflexive need for some people to defend her.

I don't think she represents Feminism, not even close: none of the Feminists I know IRL think she represents Feminism, but then most of the Feminists I know IRL don't think trying to stop consenting adults watching other consenting adults fuck on film is a particularly legitimate or worthwhile pursuit, much less a front burner goal of "Feminism".

Unlike Dworkin, who basically made it a top priority.

Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #186)

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
192. The point as I see it is to enlighten people to the nature of most porn and how it can skew one's
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 03:47 AM
Aug 2014

attitude toward and perception of sex and women, not to stop people enjoying watching other people fuck. It's the type of fucking that is in question and the lessons it teaches people about gender roles and treatment. Most porn is about degrading women. The "money shot" is usually a facial. There's a good post about facials in this thread. That's not respecting a woman. Look at all the crude comments you see on the internet nowadays. Hell back when I was in college a I was visiting a friend and his roommate got home and was so angry and he said "man I need to fuck right now", so because he's angry he thinks a woman should take him ramming into her. Where does a young man get that idea? It's all tied together.

Here's a great video for you, this guy gives a great talk about why he changed his mind about porn:

Oh, and btw... you were the one who brought up Dworkin? Why is that? If you agree she is the fringe of the fringe why bring her into the conversation?

Okay, now please enjoy your video, there will be no further interruptions:





Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
193. I originally mentioned Dworkin only in the context of her ineffectual battle vs. the porn industry
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:01 AM
Aug 2014

which is the topic of the thread, and how free content on the internet has done more damage to their profits than she ever could.

She's only relevant because she made battling porn her life's work, or a prime focus of it. It doesn't mean she wasn't extreme.

And seeing some repeatedly-posted guy go "holy shit porn is horrible" isn't going to change my opinion, sorry. "most porn" isn't anything- "porn" encompasses a whole lot of stuff. People like what they like. The people who like the stuff you think is horrible, aren't going to be swayed by your argument. The people who don't like what you what think is horrible, are not going to be swayed by your argument that the stuff they like has anything to do with the stuff you think is horrible.

What you have is tired old anecdotal evidence of people cherry-picking examples of whatever it is they're railing against (or simply coming from bizarro reality, like the documentarian who believes porn is oppressive when it contains blowjobs), and then trying to make some sort of sweeping generalizations from them. I'm a grown up, and I make my own decisions about entertainment. Beyond that it's inanely patronizing to assume that strangers you meet on the internet simply haven't thought about these grand pronouncements and generalizations you're making about something they may very well be more familiar with, than you are.

There is always the possibility- remote, sure- that you're simply WRONG.

But I'll do you a favor; I won't try to tell you - or 're-educate' you- on what to watch, read, or think about. Aren't I nice?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
196. So you really don't think that most porn is about a woman being objectified
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:13 AM
Aug 2014

and that facials aren't a huge part of it all? Most porn isn't about an equal sexual experience. Here, read this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5353995

You actually are missing the entire point of it all. I think it's on purpose though, so I'll leave it at that. You don't want to get that porn influences men's attitude's towards women and I can't make you get it since you're not even willing to listen. You won't even take responsibility for having brought up Dworkin's name when there was no reason to do so what so ever. I can think of a reason one might do that. And yet you think others are "picking out the worst examples of whatever it is they're railing against". Project much?

And by the way, I'm not trying to make your decisions for you. I'm trying to get you to see how it can affect society and men's attitudes towards women. From your tone and your defensive "I'm a big boy" attitude one might get the idea that you're one of the guys who thinks feminism is about castrating men and controlling them.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
197. The facial person also thinks "men ejaculating in womens mouths" indicates oppression.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:18 AM
Aug 2014

And no, I don't think mens' sexuality is being jim-hammied by the nasty porn brain erotoxin fritwardles. I don't believe that "most porn" is anything, any more than I believe that "most music" is anything, except something most people enjoy with their ears.

"Feminism" is a label. There are plenty of Feminists who don't think fighting against porn is, or should be, a focus of the movement.

"I'm trying to get you to see-" translation: you are adopting a patronizing attitude with me that somehow I require further education on something I don't. That's offensive, as offensive as me looking through your bookshelf and trying to lecture you about the authors you like.

I'm trying to get you to see that.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
199. So you didn't bother to read that post at the link then.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:30 AM
Aug 2014

You're responding about something I did not point you to or bring up.

As to your being offended by a discussion about society, your analogy about looking through my bookshelf is way off. First of all, when did I look through your videos? And the fact that you take a discussion as a lecture is telling. Again, one might perceive that as a man who hates being told anything by a woman, a man who feels that a woman who is simply speaking her mind on an internet message board is somehow lecturing him and trying to dictate what he should be watching. You are honestly coming off that way, like you think I want to come take your toys away, or even your manhood. If you want to start a thread discussing authors and books and their effect on society you are more than welcome to do so. I encourage it. Please do.

I'm discussing a societal issue. I'm not lecturing or dictating to you what you can and cannot do or watch. I can however, speak my mind about the influences that certain things have on society, especially when it has to do with misogyny. It's something that actually affects my life, being a woman and all.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
200. Yes, I did. Again, you seem to think that if I'm just exposed to enough supposedly self-evident
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:38 AM
Aug 2014

wisdom, I'll change my mind. Except, the basic premises of the generalizations are false. I already don't like misogynist porn, any more than I like hair metal. But all porn or "most porn" is not misogynist, in my opinion, just like porn containing blowjobs is not inherently misogynist.

I'm not being defensive, I'm responding to you, which is what you're doing to me. You apparently don't like being challenged on your right to attempt to 're-educate' people.

If you really want to understand porn, since it's so important to you, try watching some. Maybe by looking for it on your own instead of following links from anti-porn bloggers. Just remember that, like with many things, what you find is highly dependent upon what you look for.

Or don't, make up your own mind.

The only author I've tried to get DU members to read is Korzybski, whose ideas in general semantics are sorely needed by people who get way too attached to their categories and labels, which allows them to make blanket statements like "most porn is" "Feminists are" "Progressives are" etc. etc.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
202. Well you mentioned something from a different post, so it didn't seem that you read what I linked to
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 05:23 AM
Aug 2014

and that you assumed because I mentioned facials I was talking about that other post that you referenced.

You are being defensive. You are worried I'm telling you what to watch, you made a false analogy that inferred that I'm rifling through your videos and telling you what to watch, you made a point of stating that you are a grown up who can decide for himself. You are making very personal arguments rather than simply discussing the merits or ill effects of most porn.

I'm glad to hear you don't like misogynist porn. I never said porn containing blow jobs was misogynistic. You are arguing things I never said. Except that I did say most porn is misogynistic and I believe that to be true.

You make a lot of assumptions as well. Rather than ask if I've ever watched any porn you just assume I haven't. You think that only people who have never watched porn think it is generally degrading to women? Or you think that all people who think it's degrading to women haven't watched it?

One last thing and then I have to go to bed. As a man, do you find it odd that you keep arguing against what so many women (and men) find degrading? Who are you to tell a woman that it's not degrading? Should white people tell blacks what is and isn't to be perceived as racist? And you also keep defining feminism. Should whites go argue with blacks and define racism to them? Should they go and name drop the most extreme person that most people don't agree with, with whatever motive they might have for doing so?

Why don't you allow for the fact that many women (and men) feel it is degrading to women and trust that women would know if it is or isn't? Why don't you try to be sensitive to that fact? The fact that you insist on arguing against the fact that women feel it is degrading shows that you disregard women and don't value their opinions and feelings. You are dismissing it away just because you don't want to believe it. The real issue is that most women do find it degrading and yet you want to convince them that it isn't. If you were at all concerned about women's issues you would try to understand why they think that. You appear to be more concerned that some woman is trying to take something away from you. It's not about a gender war, it's about understanding, respect and empathy, or at least sympathy.

I try to understand what it must be like to grow up black or gay in this country all the time. It's not up to me to define what is and isn't racist or homophobic, it's up to me to understand why blacks or gays feel something is racist or homophobic. I certainly don't go around trying to define it for them and tell them they are wrong to feel oppressed. If they tell me something is offensive to them or degrading to them or oppressive to them I try to understand why they feel that way, I don't go telling them they are wrong.

And that is the real crux of the situation here.

Good night.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
207. Eh, please don't tell me what I am or am not worried about.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 07:42 AM
Aug 2014

I'm worried about Ebola getting a foothold in Lagos, I'm not worried that any erstwhile porn banners on DU -if they actually exist- are ever going to succeed in getting rid of smut. That's just not going to happen.

You brought up "facials", which is directly from the same documentarian referenced upthread who believes the fact that porn regularly shows "men ejaculating in womens mouths" indicates misogyny or degradation. I don't want to get into TMI territory, but most sexually active adults have had oral sex of various configurations, with all sorts of end results, and most of them don't consider the act "degrading". The whole thing about ... that whole thing is totally arbitrary IMHO, and really just seems to reflect the fact that a particular act or combination of acts horrified one particular researcher.

I'm not telling you what to think. You seem awfully concerned with what I think- whether it be telling me what I think, telling me what I should think about, telling me what it "appears" that I think, etc. Here's a hint... if you have to go to great lengths to imagine what it "appears" that I think, I think you're doing it wrong. Maybe deal with my actual words, instead of what you imagine is going on in my head?

"Most porn is..." that's part of the problem. These relatively pointless exercises are sort of like someone making some scholarly-sounding ominous assertion that "most music has accordions", and then proceeding to go out and list a whole bunch of examples of music with accordions. Now leaving aside the question of whether accordions are objectively bad or not, the fact remains that if someone doesn't like accordion music, the thing to do is avoid it, and if someone thinks there are too many accordions in music, well, one answer might be to make some music without accordions. Going on about how music=accordions, is ludicrous. Music is too broad a category, a genre, a means of expression, to make those sorts of generalizations. Not to mention, "music" can include everything from a symphony to someone banging two rocks together.

Yes, I'm a grown up. I've spent enough years on this planet that I'm going to make up my own mind about stuff, and that includes consenting adult entertainment. It appears that I'm supposed to cluck appreciatively when provided with "education" on these matters which I apparently just don't understand, but if I protest or mention the fact that my own counsel will I keep, thank you very much, I'm being defensive/afraid.

No, I don't find it "odd" that I support the right of consenting adults to make their own damn decisions, and that includes the right of them to take off their clothes off in front of a camera. I'm not going to apologize for that fact. Some people find "porn" (again, ill-defined and broadly generalizing) "degrading" (again, ill-defined) many people DO NOT. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to "listen" to one opinion and then immediately accept that it is the only valid one. There are lots of people who don't agree. I've read the assertions, again, of the people who make broad generalizations about "degrading acts in porn" and then proceed to categorize many normal sex acts- like blowjobs- as degrading.

Dworkin is relevant, here, because she was coming from a place where the penetrative sex act itself, was inherently degrading to women, particularly when graphically displayed. And like it or not, that strain of thinking still rings through a great deal of porn "critique". But if you ask people who subscribe to that approach what sorts of graphic depictions of the sex act they would NOT consider degrading, generally there is no answer- because the answer is "none". I don't agree with that assessment, and neither do many women AND men. I'm sympathetic and empathetic to people who don't like porn, but there's a relatively simple solution- Don't like porn? Great, don't watch it. Simple enough.

I also haven't "defined" Feminism, what I've pointed out are two things, a) it's a label, and b) there are many Feminists who self-apply that label who don't feel there is anything inherently wrong with porn.

No one has told you you can't feel any particular way about porn. However, the insisitence that everyone else has to feel the same way (and if anyone disagrees, they're 'oddly arguing' 'not listening' and 'not sympathetic') is pretty goofy, especially given that this is a discussion board. You have an opinion, I don't agree. You can post youtube videos or links to insightful posts, I still won't agree. You can claim I'm not being sympathetic, try to divine my deeper motives, imply that I'm worried someone's gonna take all the pictures of naked women off the intertubes, I still won't agree. Sorry.

...that is the real crux of the issue.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
229. And now you are being dismissive about the treatment of a gender
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 01:54 PM
Aug 2014

Last edited Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:19 PM - Edit history (2)

that is half of this population because you are much more busy worrying about ebola, which I'm pretty sure you yourself can do nothing about, where as this is an issue you could actually help out with, should you choose to be empathetic rather than combative.

Regarding "facials". Do you think that documentary maker is the person who coined that phrase? The only one who uses it? Come on, at least admit that your referencing that other post was apropos of nothing. Otherwise you expose yourself as not attempting to or not wanting to have a genuine discussion. You seemingly brought that into it as a way to discount an entire argument even though it was not relevant to what I had said, just as you brought up an extremist such as Dworkan in an attempt to discount the entire argument that most porn is degrading to women. She is no more relevant in here than is Santa Claus because no one is arguing or defending her points. You brought her up out of thin air. Is it relevant to bring up Karl Marx in an attempt to argue against Obama's fiscal policies? No, not when it is done as if Marx's ideas are anything close to resembling Obama's. No one prior to your post bringing her up said anything about blow jobs themselves being degrading. No one said the act of sex alone is bad. No one. You brought her up in what can only be seen as an attempt to spoil the argument. There was no other reason to bring her up. None.

There's nothing wrong with you not being aware of how porn is degrading, but you aren't even trying to understand how it could be when women (and men) tell you that it is. You can argue and protest as much as you like that you resent someone (women) telling you how you are supposed to feel and think, which is not at all what is happening. The fact that you perceive it as such seems indicative that you probably have a deep fear of women having any voice at all. Because the rational response to anyone stating that they are uncomfortable with something and see it as degrading to an entire gender would be to actually think about it and look at why they feel that way. But you feel the need to proclaim that you are an adult - when no one has questioned that - and how you don't have to listen to anyone telling you what you can and cannot watch - no one has done that either. Then you try to make an analogy that infers that what I am doing is rifling through your personal video collection and lecturing you on them - again, never done. That's not even close to what anyone is doing. We're just discussing an issue, irrespective of what you may or may not have in your video library. You're the one who keeps telling us you like to watch porn and no one can tell you to stop.

Your arguments are way off the mark, most likely either because you are defensive or just completely disingenuous. But they are not intellectually coherent and seem to be coming from an emotional response against you having to have any kind of respectful dialog with a woman. Quite frankly, you are coming off like an insecure male attempting to prove his masculinity in ways that only show how threatened you are because otherwise you would look at the actual issue being discussed instead of bringing up unrelated authors and posts and complaining about some non-existent "orders" about what you are allowed to watch. No one is trying to take anything away from you. We are simply stating that most porn is degrading to women and that has an effect on how men view and treat women as a whole in society.

If you are in a relationship and your partner tells you something bothers them, do you just tell them that there is nothing to be bothered about, that they don't get to tell you how to behave? That you can do and say whatever you want? Or do you talk to them about why that bothers them and try to not bother them in the future? And even if you don't understand it, do you keep telling them their feelings are not valid? Because that's what you are doing here.

Again... I try to understand what it must be like to grow up black or gay in this country all the time. It's not up to me to define what is and isn't racist or homophobic, it's up to me to understand why blacks or gays feel something is racist or homophobic. I certainly don't go around trying to define it for them and tell them they are wrong to feel oppressed. If they tell me something is offensive to them or degrading to them or oppressive to them I try to understand why they feel that way, I don't go telling them they are wrong.

Again again...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5353995

Compassion and understanding is what it's all about.



Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
239. Just because someone says "this bothers me", doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to be taken
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:52 PM
Aug 2014

seriously.

A lot of people are "bothered" by consensual gay relationships. They're not automatically entitled to be taken seriously just because the behavior of others bugs them. You keep trying to compare porn to racism or homophobia, again, the basic underlying premise there is faulty- at least, I think it is. Actually, I think it's far more rational to compare what you're doing, here, to the people who can't stay out of the consenting adult business of others.

And it goes back to Dworkin because she believed ALL penetrative sex, at least as it is generally practiced on Planet Earth, is inherently "degrading" to women. To ALL women, actually, not just the woman in the sex act. It requires that sort of assumption- erroneous, to say the least, in my mind- to arrive at a conclusion where sex graphically depicted similarly contains an inherent element of degradation to women.

In short, I don't believe sex is inherently degrading to anyone. If people do, that's their problem, not mine. Suggesting, as you have repeatedly, "you need to listen to the people who think depictions of sex are like racism and homophobia because depictions of sex are like racism and homophobia", is a tautology.

Do you believe that it is possible to depict sex graphically and have it not be degrading?

I do not think the documentary filmmaker coined the word "facials", but then I don't see what the existence of the term proves in terms of the inherent "degrading" nature of the act. And in the same sentence she listed "men orgasming on womens faces" and "men orgasming in womens mouths" as two of these common, horrific degrading components of, again, that bugaboo "most porn". What you don't seem to get is that not everyone - not every woman, not even every self-described Feminist- automatically believes those things are "degrading". And again, this is not an outlier in terms of the MacKinnon-isms and Dines-osity of your boilerplate anti-porn arguments; they crop up over and over, and yes, they've already been floated even numerous times on DU- among them are defining "most porn" as "violent or degrading" and then defining pretty common sex acts, from blowjobs (or "orgasming in a woman's mouth&quot to butt-slapping, as "violent or degrading". All sorts of spooky implications are floated about the endllessly programmable nature of the male sex-brain, and oh no what are we doing to these easily hijacked mens' heads with the porn programming turning them to mush?


I don't think oral sex is inherently degrading. I don't think someone "orgasming on someone else's face" is inherently degrading.


You're the one who keeps telling us you like to watch porn and no one can tell you to stop.


No, if you read what I wrote, you'd see that I said that I make my own decisions about consenting adult entertainment, period, as should you and all other thinking people with functional brains in their heads. And apparently that relatively straightforward sentiment alone constitutes a global planetary emergency, and is enough to warrant no end to cloth-rending, hair-tearing, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Oh well.

There's nothing wrong with you not being aware of how porn is degrading, but you aren't even trying to understand how it could be when women (and men) tell you that it is. You can argue and protest as much as you like that you resent someone (women) telling you how you are supposed to feel and think, which is not at all what is happening.


That's funny. First part- "your thinking is wrong" Second part- "you should listen when people try to correct you on your erroneous thinking" Third part- "no one is trying to tell you what to think".

The fact that you perceive it as such seems indicative that you probably have a deep fear of women having any voice at all.




The rest of your post, the other sort of inane ad hominem insults, and the rest... yeah, whatever. What were you saying about getting 'personal and emotional'?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
270. You've missed on all points.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:55 AM
Aug 2014

Again you inject Dworkan as if she has anything to do with anything. She has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation other than your constant attempts to derail it by bringing in extremist examples to taint the opposition. You're showing that you are not concerned about actually exploring the issue or discussing it.

No one said there is anything inherently degrading about/with sex.

Of course you can depict sex graphically without it being degrading. This is probably why you are not understanding why people think most porn is degrading to women. You seem to think porn is normal sex. It's not.

And I see now that you don't think facials are degrading. Well then that's where we reach a definite impasse beyond what we already had.

Lastly, you are confusing listening to what people have to say and taking their feelings into consideration with being lectured to. My take away is that you just don't care that many people find most porn to be degrading to women. And you don't care why they feel that way either. So no point continuing.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
278. And you don't care that many people DON'T find porn degrading to women.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:07 AM
Aug 2014

Or men, for that matter.

Difference being, I'm not trying to go off on some goofy psychoanalysis of your personality, make ridiculous offhand assertions about who you are and what motivates you, nor am I complaining about how you're not listening/empathetic/being considerate because you don't agree with the assessment of those people.

The baseline, here, is that you're dead set determined that there is one objective, "right" way to think about "most porn". I'm saying first off that "porn" is not a monolith, "most porn" is an imaginary categorization, and different people have different opinions and reactions to not just porn in general but the specific acts and actions in question- there is not an objective "one correct way" to think about them.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
283. I'm not causing any harm to anyone who doesn't find porn degrading.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:11 AM
Aug 2014

However, those who don't find it degrading are causing harm to women, imo.

You did far worse than my speculating on your possible fear of women because of how you deal with this issue, you attempted to derail the discussion by bringing in extremist examples in an attempt to paint the opposition as crazy and invalidate that position - and after being called on it you doubled down and did it yet again. And rather than attempt to actually discuss the issue you kept trying to paint it as me and others telling you what you could and could not watch, which was never the case. And then you wrongly inferred that I was going through your videos and then lecturing you about what you were watching, by likening my posts to you looking through my books and lecturing me on what authors I was reading. Basically, you were doing everything you could to avoid an actual discussion. I made an observation on your behavior and how it came across. I could have not done that, I'm sorry if that offended you.

As to the your "not listening" part. Well, if you have a problem with that then all you have to do is to start listening. And that doesn't mean taking orders, it means just that, listening. Listening to the concerns of others. There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, there is everything right in doing that. Communication takes listening. It can't happen without it. Period. You can't possibly understand another's concerns without listening. Again I refer you to what I've said twice now that you never address:

I try to understand what it must be like to grow up black or gay in this country all the time. It's not up to me to define what is and isn't racist or homophobic, it's up to me to understand why blacks or gays feel something is racist or homophobic. I certainly don't go around trying to define it for them and tell them they are wrong to feel oppressed. If they tell me something is offensive to them or degrading to them or oppressive to them I try to understand why they feel that way, I don't go telling them they are wrong.


Oh, as to your "baseline". You are doing exactly what you accuse me of when you say porn is not degrading to women. And you're not even a woman, you are part of the gender in power, so why do you think you get to be the spokesman of what is or is not degrading to women? Hint, you don't. Just as I, as a white person, don't get to define what is and isn't racist. See excerpt above.

Your accusation is also wrong in that I specifically use the term "most porn" to distinguish from the porn that is not degrading to women. Therefore I cannot possibly be thinking of porn as a "monolith" so I don't know what you're talking about there but it is completely wrong and doesn't make any sense at all.

And most porn is of a certain type. You are the only one I see arguing that it's not. I've seen several male posters in this thread alone describing it as mistreating women. If you don't think facials are degrading then it just shows how far we have yet to go and proves my point as to how porn affects the male's view of women in society.

Bye now.


nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
245. "...you probably have a deep fear of women having any voice at all."
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:44 PM
Aug 2014

I'm not unsympathetic to your views (see post #244) but this is really a leap from what Warren has actually said. Putting words in another person's mouth tends to undermine one's argument - and that's a shame, as you do have many valid points in this thread.

As I said above, I am bothered if not outright horrified by much of the porn that exists out there. But I'm not going to accuse a person of malicious intent just because they don't entirely agree with me.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
266. It'd be nice if we could have these threads without the goofy armchair psychoanalysis
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:41 AM
Aug 2014

or the ad hominem attacks that go with it, wouldn't it?


cui bono

(19,926 posts)
285. But you're fine with bringing up extremists who no one has quoted or is championing
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:18 AM
Aug 2014

so as to invalidate the opposing side? If you posted to WDM about that I missed it. If you're going to jump in and play referee you should ref all involved. Not that it really matters except for the reaction you got from it shows it just egged him on. Anyway, I apologized for it even though I don't think it was really that wrong. At least I wasn't trying to derail the entire discussion with a strawman and false arguments as WDM did on several occasions.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
288. I think his bringing up Dworkin was somewhat questionable, yes.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 05:54 AM
Aug 2014

And frankly I think you were both putting words in each other's mouths. Not an uncommon thing on DU.

For the record, though, I don't think you particularly have anything to apologize for.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
268. I'm basing it off his words.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:47 AM
Aug 2014

That's how he comes across to me. And that in no way is accusing him of malicious intent. It's an observation based on what he has said.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
244. I dunno... While I do think "degrading" is in the eye of the beholder, I have to say
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 08:26 PM
Aug 2014

that a lot of (relatively mainstream) pornographic content disturbs me. It's not about "fucking on camera" - that in itself I take no issue with - but the frequently disrespectful, if not outright abusive and violent, treatment of the female performers. Everything from verbally insulting them to slapping them around. And frankly, I find it downright horrifying that an irredeemable scumbag like Max Hardcore has so many fans - even though I disagree with his being prosecuted for "obscenity," which is an outdated and frankly stupid legal concept.

So yeah, I'm not trying to lecture you or pile on or anything of that nature - I generally like and appreciate you as a poster, and I've said so more than once in the past. Just saying, it's a little more complicated than simply "porn good" or "porn bad." And while I generally regard Dworkin as a bit of a crackpot, her views didn't come from nowhere. If nothing else, you can't say that she didn't know sexual violence and abuse firsthand.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
267. I think Max Hardcore is an asshole and absolutely a misogynist, but I also think he peaked
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:44 AM
Aug 2014

in 1997 or so.

I don't think he's indicative of "most porn", which again, at this point is well beyond just whatever the "industry" puts out from Van Nuys or wherever, and has really expanded- as has so much else content-related with the internet- into a medium of expression more than a monolithic thing.

Again, if one wants to make the argument that "most music is accordions", one could make a big list of accordion music, but it still wouldn't prove that most music is accordion music. It just means that there is accordion music out there.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
271. Fair enough. I realize the worst material isn't necessarily typical, though I would argue
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:57 AM
Aug 2014

that it's far too common even still.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
273. And there's a lot of shitty music out there.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:58 AM
Aug 2014

But that doesn't mean all music is shit, or all music fans are to blame for The Nuge.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
233. Dworkin was seriously mentally ill from the get go.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 02:39 PM
Aug 2014

and mistaken for a "philosopher" by some so-called legal theorists with an ax to grind. I read a bunch of her "work" and it bore about as much resemblance to the reality lived on Earth as The Flintstones does to anthropological history. She was as delusional as the average street-corner preacher.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
242. And no one ever wants to talk about her alliances of convenience with right-wingers.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 06:11 PM
Aug 2014

However many on the Christian right recognized her as an ally, despite their differences.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
247. I would say that, if anything, is the greatest strike against her.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:19 PM
Aug 2014

Aligning with repressive forces in the name of liberation - which, needless to say, is all kinds of screwed up, even if you subscribe to the "any port in a storm" way of thinking. Case in point, when an anti-porn ordinance endorsed by Dworkin was passed in Canada, most of the materials seized by Customs were gay/lesbian oriented - hardly what the "progressive" backers of the law envisioned, I would think.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
275. MacKinnon and her ilk didn't care
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:00 AM
Aug 2014

about that. Not one bit. They were and and are as prudish as Anthony Comstock. Any depictions of any sex were evil.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
99. Hardly.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:01 PM
Aug 2014

That would only apply if I was ever a fan. Wasn't.

Never been impressed with his particular stripe of bloviation. Sorry.

 

JaydenD

(294 posts)
65. Wise men these people.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:52 PM
Aug 2014

I think they know having a cup of splooge on their faces for entertainment sake probably isn't all that great when you are the sploogie. Plus hurting orifaces and the humiliation of it all.

Thanks for those vids.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
84. You reminded me of this
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 09:03 PM
Aug 2014
When I asked male interview subjects what they would like to do in bed, “ejaculation on a woman’s face” was most often at the top of their lists. But when I asked them what the attraction of this act was and whether it meant anything, their initial response was puzzlement. They had never given it much thought. With time for reflection, however, most came up with answers very similar to those of the pornographers I interviewed: it is about controlling women, doing something disgusting to them. It’s like spitting or urinating on them. Thus something unsettling about gender relationships mediated by pornography is revealed: on-screen male domination is sugar-coated — portrayed as causing women ecstasy — which in turn arouses further desire on the part of the male viewers: the desire to experience the pleasure derived from control and aggression. And deep down, these viewers understand it. “The second you have an orgasm and that passion sinks out of your body, and you’re still watching the movie, you start to really see what’s going on,” one male college student said. “This is not sexy. This is not sex. This is not how I want to experience sex.”

- Chyung Sun, co-director of The Price of Pleasure
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/11/11/does-pornography-deserve-its-bad-rap/pornography-has-become-more-hard-core

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
100. Well, obviously it's what every man who watches porn has been programmed to want.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:05 PM
Aug 2014

According the clearly infallible anecdotal evidence of the author of an anti-porn book.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
101. This is such a narrow and inaccurate view of pron
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:06 PM
Aug 2014

There is so much out there catering to different tastes. Some pron reflects what's noted in your post. Other pron is the exact opposite with the roles reversed.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
103. The linked author also thinks "men ejaculating in womens' mouths" indicates oppression.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:10 PM
Aug 2014

Funny, on my planet it is one -although by no means the only- relatively common event in acts of mutually enjoyed oral sex.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
135. Go over to redtube or youporn or wherever and count them
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 09:34 AM
Aug 2014

Count the videos that use language that degrades woman. Count the ones that show content that degrades or abuses women.

Then count the ones that show "the reverse". Then we'll talk.

I'm sick of the false balance that's constantly used to try to defend this shit.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
161. The documentary filmmaker you link upthread apparently considers blowjobs "degrading"
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 07:27 PM
Aug 2014

And then expresses shock and horror that they turn up in so much pornography.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
291. I would say sunlight is the best disinfectant
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 11:24 AM
Aug 2014

and that your 'just ignore it' plan only makes things worse.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
269. I looked at the front pages of the sites you referenced- for research, of course-
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:47 AM
Aug 2014

and the most common invective used, language wise, was far and away some variation of "fuck" or "fucking".

Threedifferentones

(1,070 posts)
132. It would seem undeniable that a large portion of porn is deeply misogynistic.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 07:23 AM
Aug 2014

I watched a lot of it in my teens...before I actually had sex. Of course my HS girlfriend was totally turned off by almost everything I had ever seen in that shit. IMO empathetic men who actually do relate to women as equals should quickly become fed up with most porn, because it obviously depicts sex which is more violent than most couples, and much less pleasurable for the female partner.

And that, to me, is the most insidious thing about porn: hetero teenage boys will be turned on by ANYTHING that features pretty naked women. But, so much internet porn is made where she is obviously just a toy for his pleasure, and this can trick boys into thinking such sex is normal and common. I believe this because it happened to me, although only for a few years, about the ages of 12-16.

Porn does not have to feature so much "hard fucking" and an endless series of "facials." Of course there exists some that doesn't, but to me it seems clear that the prevalence of male-domination in typical porn flicks reflects attitudes about women and sex that are taken for granted much more often than they are stated openly: many men view women as toys to be used for pleasure and then set aside until the next fuck session.

Of course, porn is hardly the only area of life in which the male experience is given primacy. For fuck's sake, some of the world's biggest religions, including the largest in our country, insist that God is male, that men were made in His image, and that He made women for us!

So, the big question for me is this:

If in time our society becomes more equitable, will we see a change in what a typical porn film presents?

Or, in other words:

Porn obviously has the power to shape what people, especially boys, think about sex. But, to what extent is it a cause of misogyny, and to what extent is it merely a reflection of the wider culture?

Kali

(54,999 posts)
143. I wasn't even going to read this thread
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 11:45 AM
Aug 2014

because of the obvious trolling of the OP and the predictable results, but somehow got caught in it again today. I am kind of glad now. EXCELLENT comment, kicking for your reply. Thank you.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
246. I also want to acknowledge the excellence of this post.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:11 PM
Aug 2014

And while I would argue that such material reflects an already fucked-up society more than anything else, I don't deny the possible role it plays in mis-educating the youth RE: sexual relationships. Particularly in the absence of comprehensive sex ed, which AFAIK every other developed nation offers to its students. One more way in which our country is far behind the First World as a whole.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
81. "An anti-objectification, anti-porn, anti-prostitution feminist."
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:54 PM
Aug 2014

Me too ... with the caveat being I feel this way about commercial porn. Sometimes couples like to have their own thing for spice.

But commercialized sex work is pure objectification. I'm not sure laws are the answer. I think empowerment and equal opportunity will make far more progress. But then there is a contingent that actively pursues sex work.

I have a friend from college will tell you straight up that she can make hundreds of dollars a night simply by dancing a few hours. She's smart and educated but the money is more than she'd make in the top of her field The easy money is a lure and that cannot be dismissed with a wave of the hand.

Should it be quashed altogether or do we recognize "the human condition" and provide regulated outlets for those who will always pay to objectify and those who are willing to take their money?

I really don't sense a comfortable answer either way.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
144. I'm with you.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 11:55 AM
Aug 2014

The reality of the porn and prostitution industries is that women are degraded.

I just can't even imagine how awful the lives of so many prostitutes are. So many are drug addicts. So many are beaten senseless. So many are killed.

I can't believe anyone could support this stuff.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
150. I used to love porn.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 01:06 PM
Aug 2014

But if you browse those sites the amount of derision and sheer hate for women is palpable.

Eventually I couldn't rationalize it anymore.

liberalhistorian

(20,814 posts)
145. If women freely choose to be involved
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 11:58 AM
Aug 2014

with porn and prostitution and have no problem with it, and people freely choose to view porn (believe it or not, many couples even do so together), then there should be NO issue, NO problem and it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS to tell them what they can and cannot do and/or watch. Period.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
149. This isn't about any individual or what they like.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:53 PM
Aug 2014

It is about what this act represents to the men who consume this kind of porn, and what that says about our patriarchal, pornified culture.

Sexual acts aren't above analysis, especially when considering the greater social context

Some sexual acts - and it's important to remember that we're not talking about individuals in a bedroom, we're talking about porn, which has an influence on society - are about domination, control, and humiliation.

It's important to recognize the significance of this, in a world where violence against women, and specifically sexual violence against women, is a fucking pandemic.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
211. I guess it depends on whether you care about women.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:50 AM
Aug 2014

I do. And I would move to shut down porn and prostitution in a nanosecond if I could. Women were not put on this earth to service horny men.

Women who get hooked into the sex trade are always losers.

Personally, I think men who think porn and prostitution are great are just self centered jerks who don't give a flying fuck about the women who are destroyed by it. They just want what they want and don't give a shit who it hurts.

Thinking it's all OK if freely chosen is just a huge rationalization that completely falls apart if you analyze the reality of it all.

Violet_Crumble

(35,955 posts)
205. OMG. Does Noam never learn from past experience?
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 05:49 AM
Aug 2014

Not that I think there's anything wrong with having an interview appear in Hustler, but after the Faurisson debacle you'd think he'd be insisting on seeing transcripts, getting background on what he's contributing to etc. For those unfamiliar with the whole Faurisson thing, he's a Holocaust denier who used without Chomsky's knowledge an essay on free speech that Chomsky had written as the foreward for a book of his. And when asked for comment, Chomsky went into a defence of free speech instead of looking into the background of Faurisson.

To cut a long story short. I'm a massive fan of Chomsky. I've read most of his books and admire him for what he's written on US foreign policy and the I/P conflict. But that doesn't mean I should sit and nod blindly with what he says on other stuff that he's not an expert on. I don't even agree with him on some of the things he says about the I/P conflict, so why should it impress me that he doesn't like porn?

p.s. I hope everyone appreciates the subtle way I've attempted to turn this thread into the current huge issue in GD which has managed to delegate the endless and repetitive porn threads to a very distant back seat in what people are talking about in GD.

 

Michigander_Life

(549 posts)
4. If you remember correctly, I wasn't against the nipple
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:23 PM
Aug 2014

In fact I exclaimed that I love nipples. They just need to be accompanied by NSFW tags and the poster refused to add them even after numerous DU members requested them. It's just common forum courtesy.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
51. "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it"
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:22 PM
Aug 2014

"Thought you'd follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool crusade, like your father did"

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
41. Probably that guy in the Tosh.0 video clip
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:50 PM
Aug 2014

who was shown slicing his off with a razor blade after gripping them with pliers.

Unless it was some form of 'tough love'.

Response to rug (Reply #11)

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
201. I tell you what sound mind doesn't mean- it doesn't mean "anyone who only does what I would"
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:52 AM
Aug 2014

Most adults are capable of making decisions, even when the decisions are shitty ones. It is only in rare circumstances that the law, or a judge, determines people aren't responsible enough to make their own decisions, sign legal documents, etc.

Which is as it should be.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
210. thank you, Mr. DeMontague.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:44 AM
Aug 2014

So glad you are the arbiter of how things *should* be, because we all know that life is *always* as it *should* be, yes?

I know my life *always* goes according to plan. And, I am sure yours does, too.

Personally, I think you made a *shitty* decision to reply to me.

So, you see how disagreements can arise, right?

PS = I realize this is a public message board and, one can jump in where ever one pleases. And, I see now that you have absolutely no respect for me or what I want.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
232. Well, the legal definition derived from the M'Naughten case
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 02:30 PM
Aug 2014

is, IIRC, being able to know the difference between right and wrong. M'Naughten is still applied in many jurisdictions. I think it is an unsound definition as it excludes many types of recognized and serious mental illness.

I'd use a broader definition - if one is able to attend to one's everyday business in a competent manner without any assistance one is of sound mind in a commonsense way. Basic mental competence, free of mental debility or illness might be another way of putting it.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
248. Of course they should. But that doesn't mean we can't critique the sex industry
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:26 PM
Aug 2014

as a less-than-pleasant facet of unbridled capitalism. We can respect individual choices while also putting them in context - I don't see any particular contradiction there.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
264. Part of my problem with these discussions- and really, if there's anything more pointless than a
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:00 AM
Aug 2014

porn "debate" on DU, I'm hard pressed (excuse the pun) to think what it is.... is the inevitable jumping off point of "porn is..." or "most porn is".

I've given up on getting people to think twice about their attachement to labels, as a general rule, but the simple fact of this specific instance is, "porn" is more a medium of expression than a monolithic entity. Again, it's like making sweeping generalizations about "music" when that can cover everything from a symphony to me singing in the shower (albeit, barely)... even "the sex industry" is a pretty broad descriptor.

People absolutely can critique the sex industry or media they find objectionable, however, if they're going to make broad sweeping generalizations, they don't have the right to expect no one will challenge them.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
265. All very true. Really, it's more "unbridled capitalism" I have a problem with than anything.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:29 AM
Aug 2014

That is, allowing the strong to exploit the weak, or the rich to exploit the poor, without restriction (legal or otherwise). And I don't think it's any coincidence that mainstream porn (or much of it anyway) has become harsher and more callous as lassez-faire capitalism has become a relatively unchallenged dogma within mainstream American society.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
9. i think there can be plenty wrong with it but criminalizing it is not the way to go
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:24 PM
Aug 2014

because it makes those most vulnerable unable to access resources/safety

I think unless you are willing to do what it takes to cure addiction/poverty something will always be wrong with porn/prostitution, but most people are unwilling to inconvenience themselves on both a societal level and an individual level to cure poverty. nor is there really an easy answer to poverty just floating around.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
249. +1000
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:35 PM
Aug 2014

And yes, we need to do something serious about poverty in this country. More so its disproportionate impact on women and their children. Then maybe some folks wouldn't be so desperate as to resort to illegal or quasi-legal ways of making a living.

leftstreet

(36,096 posts)
24. Why taxed?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:36 PM
Aug 2014

Off topic, but I'm curious

Everyone always say this

Legalize (insert whatever) and be sure to tax it

Why?

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
27. Why shouldn't it be?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:39 PM
Aug 2014

We tax everything else, so why should whatever the 'it' du jour that was apparently illegal before, escape taxation if legalized?

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
34. Oh, you were asking why is tax it specifically added as a talking point.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:43 PM
Aug 2014

It's to help get the more fiscally conservative onboard with things they might otherwise oppose.

They might not like stoners, for instance, but they love tax revenue, especially if it's coming from those they consider sinners.

 

Michigander_Life

(549 posts)
29. Because taxes can be used for good things
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:40 PM
Aug 2014

Marihuana taxes to drug addiction programs; prostitution taxes to women's health services, etc.

 

Michigander_Life

(549 posts)
35. It has certain health risks associated with it.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:44 PM
Aug 2014

Especially when it is confined to back alleys and seedy motels because of self-righteous anti-choicers. Just look at the miraculous incidents of STD reduction when it is legalized.

leftstreet

(36,096 posts)
39. Sure. Your OP said there was 'nothing wrong with it'
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:48 PM
Aug 2014

Sounds like you're saying the risks and dangers of prostitution can be mitigated through legalization, etc, etc, etc
 

Michigander_Life

(549 posts)
45. There isn't anything wrong with it.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:51 PM
Aug 2014

Driving to work has certain risks. Walking to work and biking to work have certain risks. Police officers have certain risks with their jobs. So do firemen. And cab drivers.

Life is full of risk. Risk doesn't make wrong, and your attempt to merge the two it is extremely telling.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
37. I'd certainly consider it such.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:47 PM
Aug 2014

It's the main reason AIDS spread so rapidly in Africa. Miners from all over would hire prostitutes and either pass it along to them or get it from them, then go back home and pass it along to their wives.

Even with prophylaxis, you can still wind up transferring various diseases or critters like pubic lice.

Ignoring any moral issues at all, anyone who is a nexus between a lot of different sexual partners, whether paid or unpaid, is a lot more likely to catch something and to pass it along. So definitely a public health risk issue.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
160. I didn't see the word 'ban' anywhere in my comment.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 05:58 PM
Aug 2014

How about we actually just educate people about the real risks, statistics, and about how germs work? I know that my own 'sex ed' 20 or so years back was largely useless in terms of realistic assessment of the risks.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
250. So much wrong with society can be traced to poor education, or the lack of it entirely.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:38 PM
Aug 2014

And of course, much of this is by design - keep people stupid and desperate, and they'll believe anything. Including the bullshit spewed by right-wing nutjob politicians.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
252. Well, as much as I'd like to blame a lot of it on the RW
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:47 PM
Aug 2014

I've got to say at least anecdotally that the way one looks at the world can change drastically over time. A lot of those trite old expressions are true, in a way, which is how they wound up being trite old expressions. Like 'youth is wasted on the young'. Most of us probably wasted a lot of our time on earth because we never really gave a lot of thought towards working towards a specific purpose and life path early on, and instead merely did what other people told us we should. Go to school, get good grades, go to college...as if it was some magic mantra, and didn't need to be paired with an actual goal.

If I were magically young again, I would like to think that I would dedicate myself with more focus towards long term goals, and not simply go along in cruise control for the first three decades or so, before I woke up and realized I needed to take charge of my own life. (Now part of that might simply have been a result of privilege. If I were a minority, I wouldn't have had the ability to have spent so much time on 'cruise control', and would probably be in jail or dead by now if I had. I had the 'privilege' of wasting my life : P ...)

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
257. I hear you on that. I'm coming up on 3 decades myself (in October) and I already feel
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:04 PM
Aug 2014

like I've wasted much of my life, albeit perhaps by somewhat different means. Since graduating college in 2007 I've been sporadically employed, with no real experience accumulated, and if not for my fiction writing I would have almost nothing to show for the last 7 years. But on the bright side, I also realize I have plenty of time left.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
259. One thing I realized about college...
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:12 PM
Aug 2014

was that you can always just scope out the textbooks used for many classes, and simply buy and read them on your own. If you don't need another degree, you can keep learning without paying the bloated tuition costs. Or even read up on what will end up being classes in a future degree, so that when you do get around to working on that next degree, you're already pretty familiar with the field, and do a lot better gradewise, as well as being able to go into greater depth when working on that next degree. You want to work in field 'X'? Find out what texts are being used for the classes in the advanced degrees, buy em and start reading. Even if you never go on, you'll be able to talk the talk and demonstrate your understanding better than the other applicants who simply did that first degree and stopped.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
293. Oh please. No offense. But you're still really young.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 05:29 PM
Aug 2014

I remember feeling "old" when I hit 30. Now, everyone that age looks like a kid to me.

Seriously, you have lots of time- your biggest enemy is that feeling of "oh well, im old"

And I'll say this- i had a lot of crazy fun in my 20s, but the stability and grounding that came in my 30s was way better. And my 40s have been better than my 30s.

Blaukraut

(5,692 posts)
43. Income tax and SS and Medicare deductions would be my guess
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:50 PM
Aug 2014

Which would actually be a pretty good idea. Even (or likely especially) prositutes and adult entertainment actors would like to be able to retire and know they have a safety net.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
26. Declarations of absolutes are almost always a mistake.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:38 PM
Aug 2014

Unless you're talking about universal physical constants, there's almost (notice I even caveat this declaration ; ) never a case where the incredibly broad, sweeping statement is 100% correct.

And proof on the ground would show that there is plenty wrong with both as they exist in the real world. Now some of what is wrong is certainly not exclusive to those fields. Many participants are coerced, even if not by physical force or addiction, into taking part in the 'trades' as a result of economic forces. Which is wrong in any field. You shouldn't actually be forced by necessity into any field of endeavour, but should participate because you enjoy doing so. While there might be some people in those trades who do enjoy their work, we've got plenty of evidence that far too many don't.

Legalization, regulation, and taxation would address *some* of the problems involved, but certainly not all.

I say more power to people who want to get paid to 'get their freak on', but the reality is, and will remain, that there's a lot of evil entwined in those fields. You might do some reading on sex slave trafficking before making such a broad declaration. Even your proposed solution will not entirely end such practices, even if it somewhat diminishes them.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
28. Porn can be addictive, especially if you mix drugs with it and it can
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:39 PM
Aug 2014

alter the way a man looks at and treats Women...

I dont know if there are studies about this but I know from first hand experience this is true.

I think it should be legal, I think all drugs should be legal and controlled with rehabs on every corner.

Prostitution should be legal and controlled for safety reasons.

These are adult activities, and adult societies don't outlaw adult activities, we just regulate them so nobody gets hurt.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
243. Tying your shoes can be addictive, if you mix it with high-grade heroin.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 06:31 PM
Aug 2014

I think- and I've said this before- we do a disservice to people with physiological addiction issues by labeling all sorts of even habitual, negative behaviors, "addiction".

I think there's a big difference between an alcoholic nearly dying from the DTs, and someone who has trouble keeping themselves from shopping.

That's not to say those habituated behaviors can't be harmful, or that those folks don't deserve compassion and help. But it's not the same thing.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
32. The biggest thing wrong with prostitution...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:42 PM
Aug 2014

...is sex-trafficking and slavery. Legalization would, at the very least, reduce that particular horror.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
78. Legalization increases trafficking and slaves.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:42 PM
Aug 2014

On iPhone so not gonna link to the many many articles from the countries that have legalized and are now looking how to solve the problem of increased trafficking

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
106. Consenting adults should be able to fuck however they want, money or no money.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:18 PM
Aug 2014

I say that as a happily married man that would never pay for it.

I'm not convinced that it actually increases sex trafficking, but even if there was some connection, it doesn't change the fact that consenting adults should not face any punishment for doing what they want to do with their bodies.

We can fight sex trafficking and sexual slavery and still allow people to have a freedom they should be allowed to have.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
113. Are you arguing with yourself? You post has nothing to do with mine,
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:45 PM
Aug 2014

But stating you are not educated on the fact that legalization increases trafficking and these countries legalized are looking for solutions to an increased problem. Otherwise you post means absolutely nothing as a reply to me.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
115. I was speaking to the notion that whether its true or not that legal prostitution...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:52 PM
Aug 2014

....leads to more trafficking doesn't matter to me. My post had everything to do yours. You were talking about reports that suggest that's the case.

I look at that the same way that I see how free speech leads to more hate speech and death threats and people having nasty arguments on television. Or the same way freedom of religion means that people are free to brainwash their children into believing in some really out of touch, non-reality based bullshit that breeds a LOT of bad consequences for society.

And that's really what my point is, consequences. Freedom has consequences.

I don't know if you agree with my point or not, but it seemed like you were hinting at a position that might differ.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
121. Strawman. It holds immense significance to me...
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:32 AM
Aug 2014

...but as a separate issue that needs to be combated separately.

Heres the thing, people can, do and will always exploit the leeway that freedoms grant them in order to enable them to engage in disgusting, morally bankrupt and a lot of times, illegal, activities. But that's no reason to deny those freedoms for people who aren't doing that.

Response to seabeyond (Reply #113)

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
38. Since prostitution will always exist it would probably be best if it were regulated
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:48 PM
Aug 2014

But, to say there is nothing wrong with it makes me wonder if you would like to sell YOUR body ten to twenty times a day always wondering when one of your "clients" will decide to kill you instead of using your body as a piece of meat.

As for porn i have finally reached a point in my life where I can not even stand to be exposed to it. Sure some folks make a good living making it but many are forced into it.

So your initial argument that there is nothing wrong with these things is flawed. Very, very flawed.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
42. The biggest irony here is that they make this argument for abortion
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:50 PM
Aug 2014

For example: If we deprive women of legal abortion, abortions will happen anyway, but the methods won't be safe. It makes sense to them when you put it that way. Because it's logical. We on the left approach abortion more logically than Republicans, who cannot see past their ideology to make the rational decision: safe, legal abortion regulated by medicine and science, not fear and emotion. In this, we see reason.

But tragically, some who see reason on abortion can't apply it to the pointless War on Drugs. Or to the pointless (and futile) outlawing of prostitution. They are intellectually imprisoned by their ideology, depriving themselves of rational thinking on this subject.

You criminalize it, drive it underground, the demand is still there, so it harms people and helps no one.

This inconsistent application of reason causes harm. Can they see it? No.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
47. Feminists want to regulate porn and criminalize only the buying of sex.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:03 PM
Aug 2014

So the 'criminalizing it makes it worse!' song and dance is a red herring.

When it is legal for an individual (not a pimp or gangs laundering money for organized criminal outfits) to sell sex, but not to buy it, this puts more power in the prostitutes' hands. They can now call the cops on violent, abusive sex buyers.

As for porn, no it isn't going away but we need a lot more education about sex (not reproduction but porn specifically) before kids see it, so this has to happen in elementary school.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
49. It's a new spin on an old idea
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:16 PM
Aug 2014

It's been tried. Vice squads have existed and targeted johns in the US for decades.

Under decriminalization and regulation, sex workers who have been abused could also report it to the police. In fact, they could report it to a regulatory agency in charge of overseeing their safety. And since we've established that making it illegal has never stopped it in over 2000 years, why would you continue to support criminalization?

If your concern is truly for the sex worker, then you should support them when they demand decriminalization. They know what will make them safer, so listen to Maxine Doogan of a sex workers union:

Law enforcement efforts that go after clients ultimately increase risks for sex workers, she continued. "Any criminalization of our customers is going to bring us more violence. ... It further criminalizes the transaction." For example, when customers are concerned about being associated with sex workers, negotiations may end up being rushed, which makes it harder for sex workers to protect themselves, she said.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/SevenDays/archives/2014/02/10/sex-workers-to-protest-anti-trafficking-panel-say-john-label-is-offensive

Listen to the tidal wave of support from sex workers unions for decriminalization.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
50. Listen to a pimp? I don't fucking think so.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:21 PM
Aug 2014

Again I have to wonder why liberals who question the propaganda coming from pro industry mouthpieces from every other multi-billion dollar industry suddenly become credulous as hell when they're mouthpieces for this industry.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
60. You would rather persist with an idea that has never worked?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:40 PM
Aug 2014

You think it's a coincidence that outlawing alcohol, drugs, prostitution and abortion has never prevented any of those?

In each case, where someone demanded those services, they were provided. Only in the black market, where the safety of the customers and the workers are jeopardized.

I just don't see how you could ignore thousands of years of history to cling blindly to the belief of criminalization as something positive.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
253. She's in favor of making it legal to sell sex, but illegal to buy it, as in Sweden.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:48 PM
Aug 2014

I don't necessarily agree with her - I think the "Swedish Model" comes with problems of its own - but don't misrepresent her views.

I wholeheartedly oppose drug prohibition, just as you do. But I don't think the buying and selling of human bodies is perfectly analogous by any means.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
77. This really is the only thing that matters here
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:41 PM
Aug 2014

"Under decriminalization and regulation, sex workers who have been abused could also report it to the police. In fact, they could report it to a regulatory agency in charge of overseeing their safety."

That is an unqualified good.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
52. I'm curious as to how specifically you define "regulate"
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:25 PM
Aug 2014

Particularly as it applies to as broad a categorization as "porn", which can encompass everything from a high budget Andrew Blake (Immortalized as Jackie Treehorn in The Big Lebowski) production to an exhibitionist couple having sex in front of a webcam for someone else to watch for free.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
79. The "who decides" question is what makes this entire line of thought
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:48 PM
Aug 2014

utterly, completely and totally untenable. Always has, always will. It also makes such attempts unconstitutional for the reasons cited in American Booksellers Ass'n v. Hudnut 771 F2d 323 (7th Cir 1985), affd, 475 US 1001 (1986). See also G. Stone, American Booksellers Association v Hudnut: "The Government Must Leave to the People theEvaluation of Ideas" 77 University of Chicago Law Review 1219 (2010).

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
80. It was figured out a while back that "censorship" doesn't play well.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:54 PM
Aug 2014

That's why MacKinnon and Dworkin tried to pretend that wasn't the gist of their legislation-- although that was obviously the intended end result; and pretty much everyone else saw through that gambit, particularly the courts, as you point out.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
85. I know it well.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 09:03 PM
Aug 2014

i was in student government at the U of Minnesota when Mackinnon and Dworkin were trying to get this passed in Minneapolis. it caused one hell of a row there, too, and I was in the middle of it. Don Fraser, the mayor, who had been the most liberal of liberal stalwarts as a Congressman for ages before coming back home to Mpls, vetoed it twice if I remember it right. "Unconstitutional on its face" was the reason he gave.

I had Larry Tribe for Advanced Con Law: First Amendment in law school. Let it be said he and Judge Easterbrook are seldom on the same side of issues, at least back in those days, and Tribe thought it was a supremely well-reasoned and airtight opinion.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
140. I found mysellf wondering how far from Bluebook I had
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 10:39 AM
Aug 2014

strayed after I posted it. Yes, I am a total nerd.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
255. Greater protections for workers. Which we need in *every* industry, not just porn.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 09:49 PM
Aug 2014

And if we weren't so stupidly knee-jerk anti-labor in this country, then maybe we could achieve that.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
213. This feminist wants to do away with porn and prostitution.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 11:04 AM
Aug 2014

Porn and the sex trade are all male driven.

I have never even heard of a single woman who went "I want to grow up and be a prostitute". They get into it for a whole bunch of awful reasons.

Most of the women who get into the porn trade started out wanting to be actresses. They are very young and the men in the movie industry just manipulate the hell of them.

I just hate that whole scene. The men who drive it for the sex and the money need to be eradicated.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
215. The older I get the more radical I get.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 11:09 AM
Aug 2014

When I was younger I really bought into a lot of that male driven shit. Boy, I don't any more.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
216. Same here...
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 11:14 AM
Aug 2014

but take heart, thanks to the internet, feminists are able to network and communicate like never before. So the information and experiences that took us decades to compile before everything clicked for us is being shared with young women and girls, and that means more and more radical feminists willing to fight back against the injustices which to us, as young women, seemed insurmountable, if not completely natural and right.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
218. I cannot for the life of me understand why any woman wants to get married.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 11:25 AM
Aug 2014

The more I read about the state of most women's marriages the more I wonder why anyone in their right mind would put up with it. I know there are some good marriages out there but I wonder what the actual percentage is? So many women seem to be stuck in a form of sexual slavery. "Men want sex 3 times a week, or 5 or 5 times a day or what ever the fuck it is). Or they will divorce you?

I just read a book about the women in the Hassidic community. What they live with is just unbelievable. They go from being a poor little 16 year old who dresses in all black, cover every inch of you dresses, not knowing a thing about sex. Then they get married and they are expected to drop everything and go have sex with their husband the minute he feels the need. Then you get to raise 11 children and die from overwork. I think that scenario plays out in a whole lot of the ultra conservative communities of lots of religions.

Women are still slaves just like they always have been.



redqueen

(115,096 posts)
219. Because girls are conditioned to be nice.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 11:30 AM
Aug 2014

And women don't want to be mean. So we whitewash a whole lot of shit in order to avoid looking like 'man-haters'.

We need to stop worrying about how we are perceived and just be honest. If we did maybe fewer women would stay in situations in which they are exploited. Some women grow up in an environment where the woman is treated as an equal, and those women are less likely to accept the kind of bullshit most women grow up thinking is normal.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,860 posts)
290. This was funny.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 11:06 AM
Aug 2014

I know a family with 3 boys and 3 girls - all smarter than shit. Their mother was a very strong, smart woman. And the girls were all strong, smart, outspoken.

The girls all married men who were just kind of dipshits. They were nice dipshits.

And the boys all married very conventional homemaker type women.

I always just thought that was strange. I was surprised that the girls got married at all. And I thought that the boys who had grown up with these strong sisters would chose strong women.

Just the opposite.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
194. Wow. That is such a wrong and disgusting analogy.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 04:03 AM
Aug 2014

Surely you've heard or read that GIRLS, preteens even, are abducted and forced into prostitution. Held against their will and made to fuck several men in a day. GIRLS. You want more of that?

Also, how many women do you think actually want to be prostitute vs. how many do it because they are messed up, drug addicts, come from abused homes and wouldn't do it if they thought they could have a better life? How many women do you think control their own livelihood/business?

How in the world do you even get to the point of thinking prostitution and abortion can even be compared like that?
Talk about being intellectually imprisoned.

Takket

(21,519 posts)
53. legalizing prostitution would not help women much, unless....
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:25 PM
Aug 2014

You basically made every single woman register with the government and COMPLETELY individual in her prostitution. No "companies" of many women. if you allow prostitution corporations too many unscrupulous people are still basically going to use the threat of harm to treat the women like slaves, but now they'll only have to pay them minimum wage... which isn't much better. The pimps of today will be the corporation owners of tomorrow.

The only way to fully guarantee the safety of women is for them to be completely individual "private contractors".

As for porn, well, considering you can watch it for free on the internet, I really see no advantage to make it illegal in any way. Yes, it can contribute to problems in men with addiction, but that's a matter for a man and his Doctor to work out.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
56. I personally think we do a disservice to addicts when we label all potentially problematic behavior
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:32 PM
Aug 2014

As "addiction". Anyone who was nursed an alcoholic through the DTs or a heroin addict in withdrawls can tell you there is a world of difference between physiological addiction and even habitual, bad, destructive behavior that is very hard for people to stop.

As for "porn addiction", studies have indicated that a large number of the people who self-diagnose that problem are not folks who use or look at porn with any greater frequency or negative external consequences than anyone else, but rather people whose belief systems (usually religious) have convinced them that this behavior is negative and shameful, yet they do it anyway much as many other people do as well. In short, they're doing what other people do, they just feel guilty about it.

Similarly LGBT people may be convinced they are "addicted" to same sex activities, and be shamed into trying to "cure" themselves by their churches or whatnot.

I think shaming people over healthy consenting adult expressions of sexuality is wrong.

Takket

(21,519 posts)
66. which is pretty much exactly why I said porn addiction is between a person and their doctor.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:52 PM
Aug 2014

if someone thinks they have a problem they should be discussing it with a professional. society should not be telling them what they are doing is wrong by creating laws that punish someone for enjoying pornography.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
67. I agree.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:04 PM
Aug 2014

And in my experience people can developed problematic, even habituated relationships with all sorts of things, be they porn or gambling or chocolate or shopping or nose picking or even attending 12 step meetings.

Still, I do think the word "addiction" has hit a point of overuse.

Takket

(21,519 posts)
71. Agree...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:29 PM
Aug 2014

Addiction is strictly a clinical diagnosis. I mean it in that sense. I wouldn't say that someone that watches porn regularly but it is NOT causing harmful consequences is "addicted" to it.

but everyone throws it around.

"I'm addicted to coffee"

or baseball

or Chipotle.

and the word loses its meaning

a loved one is a diagnosed with bipolar.... ever since I notice how often people throw the word bipolar around to describe anyone who was happy one day and sad/mad the next. it makes me sick. so I understand your feelings about the word "addiction". Sounds like you or someone close to you has had to deal with the "real medical" condition.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
76. The word no longer has any meaning.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:39 PM
Aug 2014

It is used colloquially in a very imprecise manner and so called "clinicians" who seek to reap huge financial rewards from curing things that may not even exist have stretched the word to include as pathological virtualy anything that stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain. Follow the money.

 

JaydenD

(294 posts)
54. There can be a lot wrong with both
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:28 PM
Aug 2014

but don't let me destroy your happy meal.

In a safe and respectful environment there is nothing wrong with porn or prostitution but we know that is not true too often.

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
55. This study has been posted here on DU over and over and over, yet none of you valiant anti-prudery
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:30 PM
Aug 2014

warriors ever seems to address the facts of the study.

So here it is again, the study that shows that where prostitution is legalized, human trafficking increases, usually significantly. It has happened in country after country. This study encompasses over 100 countries.

Its findings make your OP ridiculous.

I'd say, "Educate yourself," but I am pretty sure that's unlikely.


A 2012 study published in World Development, “Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?” investigates the effect of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows into high-income countries. The researchers — Seo-Yeong Cho of the German Institute for Economic Research, Axel Dreher of the University of Heidelberg and Eric Neumayer of the London School of Economics and Political Science — analyzed cross-sectional data of 116 countries to determine the effect of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. In addition, they reviewed case studies of Denmark, Germany and Switzerland to examine the longitudinal effects of legalizing or criminalizing prostitution. The study’s findings include:

Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers.

On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.

Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows.

Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.

The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country.

Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.

Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

- See more at: http://journalistsresource.org/studies/international/human-rights/legalized-prostitution-human-trafficking-inflows#sthash.nUI0kGjw.dpuf

leftstreet

(36,096 posts)
61. You're talking about global trafficking
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:43 PM
Aug 2014

Excellent link

Unfortunately it will fall on mostly deaf ears here

US 'middle class' liberals usually defend their own objective ideas of prostitution, with very little understanding of the issues at stake or the scope of the crisis

They (sadly and sincerely) think they're defending a WOMAN'S RIGHT !!!11 to sell sex from a kiosk at the local suburban mall

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
68. That article includes many potential pros and cons of legalization.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:11 PM
Aug 2014

I include a snippet that starts with your last sentence. I wonder why you stopped it there?

There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.
While trafficking inflows may be lower where prostitution is criminalized, there may be severe repercussions for those working in the industry. For example, criminalizing prostitution penalizes sex workers rather than the people who earn most of the profits (pimps and traffickers).

“The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking,” the researchers state. “However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes — at least those legally employed — if prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky ‘freedom of choice’ issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.”

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
120. Legalizing prostitution in Germany increased human trafficking.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:24 AM
Aug 2014
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

Alina says that she and the other women were required to pay the pimps €800 a week. She shared a bed in a sleeping room with three other women. There was no other furniture. All she saw of Germany was the Esso gas station around the corner, where she was allowed to go to buy cigarettes and snacks, but only in the company of a guard. The rest of the time, says Alina, she was kept locked up in the club.

Prosecutors learned that the women in the club had to offer vaginal, oral and anal sex, and serve several men at the same time in so-called gangbang sessions. The men didn't always use condoms. "I was not allowed to say no to anything," says Alina.

deregulation had "not brought about any measurable actual improvement in the social coverage of prostitutes." Neither working conditions nor the ability to exit the profession had improved. Finally, there was "no solid proof to date" that the law had reduced crime.

Additionally, researchers in this paper (http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf) found that:

The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported
human trafficking inflows. We have corroborated this quantitative evidence with three brief case studies of Sweden, Denmark, and Germany.

Or this article (http://www.assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewPDF.asp?FileID=20559&Language=EN) from the Council of Europe:

Although they are distinct phenomena, trafficking in human beings and prostitution are closely linked. It is estimated that 84% of victims in Europe are trafficked to be forced into prostitution; similarly, victims of trafficking represent a large share of sex workers. The lack of precise and comparable data on prostitution and trafficking makes it difficult to assess with accuracy the impact that different regulations on prostitution may have on trafficking. However, considering the significant overlap between the two phenomena, the Assembly believes that legislation and policies on prostitution are indispensable anti-trafficking tools.

Prostitution is a blight and should be treated as such.
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
147. As the snippet I posted noted. Legalization tends to increase inflows of trafficking
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:01 PM
Aug 2014

What you should be careful of asserting, because it has not been proven, is that it tends to increase human trafficking. It only says that it tends to increase trafficking inflows to the country that has legalized. What it may mean is that some people who would be trafficked anyway were steered to that country instead of others. The probability of an inflow increase, btw, is not particularly high. I believe the number noted is about 13%.

It also says that criminalization significantly increases the misery of people currently in the industry in that country.

What is being presented by some as a study that justifies keeping it illegal really suggests the opposite.

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
155. Your assertion that the article says that the probability of inflow is 13% is wrong.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 03:53 PM
Aug 2014

The study found that legalization increased trafficking, period. The increase of trafficking was experienced in countries with all kinds of governments, but there was 13% probability that it would be higher still in those countries governed by a democratic system as opposed to some other form of government. The 13% was the higher incidence of inflow into democratically governed countries. Further, the study found that the increase in trafficking was greatest in those countries which were the wealthiest. Which means that, as a wealthy democracy, increases in trafficking in the US would be significant.

You seem to think that the hardships faced by sex workers where prostitution is criminalized are commensurate with the hardships of trafficked children, women and men. They are not commensurate. Trafficking is a form of slavery. Criminalized prostitution is not.

We can either legalize or not legalize. That means we must choose one of these systems. So we must either choose a system like the one we have now, in which prostitution is illegal and prostitutes are sometimes arrested and are sometimes preyed on by pimps and middle men. Or we can choose to legalize, in which the prostitutes are still preyed on by pimps and middle men, but which system also leads to people being enslaved and used up in the worst ways imaginable.





 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
156. I stand corrected on that minor point. But the article does not support ANY of your points.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 04:01 PM
Aug 2014

The article is very careful to specify that legalization increases INFLOW of trafficking, not trafficking. That is a critical difference because it means your entire point about

"You seem to think that the hardships faced by sex workers where prostitution is criminalized are commensurate with the hardships of trafficked children, women and men."


is unsupported by the article. The article DOES NOT SAY that legalization increases human trafficking. The article in no way attempts to suggest that the same people that were now trafficked to the country that has legalized would not otherwise be trafficked elsewhere.

Without that, your point falls down and since that's the only point you present from the article as supporting you, you have nothing.

The only point we do know for sure that impacts on whether legalization or criminalization is more humane is that the lives of sex workers is better under legalization.

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
157. Oh, jeez, steven, that's pretty lame. So if you open up a huge new market for trafficked people
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 04:10 PM
Aug 2014

in the US, and you do it knowing you are increasing the numbers of trafficked people in the US, you aren't increasing the overall numbers of trafficked people in the world? You keep telling yourself that.

And yes, the article DOES say that legalization increases the trafficking in those countries in which the legalization occurred. So what are you saying? You are A OK with a large trafficking increase in the US, because, hey, it was going to happen somewhere else anyway? That's kind of sick.

You are, I'm sure, going to need to go on making silly points on this. So have fun with that. I don't see much benefit to continuing this conversation.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
158. It's not lame, it's the study you posted. They were very careful to state it that way for a reason
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 04:14 PM
Aug 2014

If you are posting a study to imply that a properly done study bolsters your point, and I appreciate that aspect of it, I like facts, you have to accept the limitations of that study that the folks who did the study are clearly indicating by their language.

They are not saying that legalization increases human trafficking.

BainsBane

(53,010 posts)
127. That would require giving a shit
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 01:49 AM
Aug 2014

about anyone but the men who buy sex. Isn't going to happen. This is the epitome of the "me" ethos, all that matters is a man's desire to buy sex. This is about the exhalation of self above the rest of the human race--power and privilege of the few and the hell with the consequences. Those enslaved girls and children do not factor in their thinking because they do not care. Children in inner cities are irrelevant. It's class, race, and gender exploitation at it's worse, and they've developed a self-righteous ideology to justify it: sex as the highest form of liberty, a liberty that belongs only to men of privilege and hinges on exploitation of the worst kind, resulting in slavery, rape, and death. They refuse to pay attention to either academic evidence or personal experiences because those lives simply do not matter. One came out and told me point blank that my experience as a child being preyed upon by Johns who came to find prostitutes was irrelevant. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025346527
The poor exist for the privileged to use, abuse, and throw away. The dogma of neoliberal capitalism trumps human rights.

I will also note that not a one would agree to put prostitution in their own neighborhoods. It had to go in poor neighborhoods like mine. We were accustomed to economic blight and sexual predation. What difference would legalization make anyway? Only not in their communities, not next to their schools. It is entirely about their privilege and ability to exploit the poor at will, and we are supposed to take it because of their "liberty." Well I don't give a shit about the privileged man's liberty that comes at the cost of massive exploitation of persons and communities. I care about the rights of the rest of the human race to live in dignity, without poor children being preyed upon, raped, and sold into slavery.

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
153. Absolutely. And that's not going to happen. As you say, "not in my back yard" and "not
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 03:28 PM
Aug 2014

my daughter" but "I need my porn for Liberty and Women's Rights! Argle bargle!!!"

They give a shit about their jack-off accessories. That's about it. And frankly, that's about how they look at these women: appliances and accessories.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
58. I heard iceland was going to ban all internet porn, and some people got VERY excited!
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:33 PM
Aug 2014

Funny, though, i haven't heard much about it since then.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
258. Yeah, that was an overreach, and a rather foolish one.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:07 PM
Aug 2014

Whatever my objections to certain content, I don't think censorship is the answer by a long shot.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
141. Kind of a funny picture considering he was an addict and a prostitute walked over his body
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 10:48 AM
Aug 2014

to leave him dying on the floor.

Bravo.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
72. Agreed.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:34 PM
Aug 2014

There basic problem with crusaders against "sin" be they on the right or on the left. They ignore everything that we know about human nature as it has been shown to be for umpteen millennia. People like sex, they like altering their consciousnesses. In other words, they're normal parts of the underwiring of the pleasure centers of the human brain. Those things do not have to be programmed into the brain like say, religulous stupidity or racism.

We are a non-perfectible species. The bugs of "sin" people complain about are part and parcel of the way homo sapiens is wired.

Run far and fast from anyone who tells you that "sins" based in the deepest recesses of human consciousness can be stamped out.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
231. Strawman argument.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 02:17 PM
Aug 2014

No one here has said it's a "sin".

It's about how you treat another human being, how you regard an entire gender. It's about respect and compassion towards the other gender.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
82. How do you feel about the organ trade? Just consenting adults?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:54 PM
Aug 2014

After all, hey, it's my kidney, if I want to sell it, how is that your business?

How about the minimum wage. If I agree to work for 50 cents an hour, who are you to barge in with your "living wage" moralizing?

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
180. Yes. After all, people who donate their organs do it because they like to meet people. They're
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 09:51 PM
Aug 2014

just outgoing that way. So I wish all these people would quit being such prudes and hand me a scalpel.

(I have actually argued with people here who say that most prostitutes are in it because they like sex and meeting people. They also seem to believe that most prostitutes are working their way through college. No kidding. I guess people can convince themselves of anything.)

Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #83)

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
134. Regarding Flynt:
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 09:31 AM
Aug 2014

From an August 3rd, 2004 Democracy Now interview Amy Goodman did with Larry Flynt

AMY GOODMAN: What about the criticism, Larry Flynt, that you have profited for so many years off of the exploitation and degradation of women, like showing a woman in a meat grinder. Your response to that?

LARRY FLYNT: Well, most of the criticism comes from the radical feminist movement, who really only claim to fame is to urge a bunch of ugly women to march behind. Other than that, I haven't received criticism.

Larry Flynt says most of the criticism against his magazine comes from the radical feminist movement. We ask: Where have you been?

http://www.hustlingtheleft.com



Hustler’s denigrating S.E. Cupp “satire”
Larry Flynt hides behind free speech to degrade a conservative
...

Way to seize the moment, Cupp — except that liberals don’t like fake blow-job putdowns either

...

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/24/hustlers_denigrating_s_e_cupp_satire/


Not sure if that's the same image that was posted here, and that so many here defended, but... yeah.



And here he comments on porn:

“I wouldn’t advise them to do it. There’s a difference between a girl that makes a movie and a girl that poses for a magazine. Most of the girls that pose for the magazine aren’t doing it for the money; they’ve got great bodies, and they’re doing it for posterity’s sake. But where the money is to be made is if they move into films, and I wouldn’t advise that. You get used up very quickly: Within three or four months, the average girl will just get used up. It just takes your soul, you know? It just takes your soul.”


Just a few tidbits to back up sea's points which were hidden

BainsBane

(53,010 posts)
93. Nothing wrong unless you count
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 10:42 PM
Aug 2014

Human trafficking, slavery, child rape, preying on children, harassment, battery, murder, STDs, economic blight, drug addiction, suicide, and death. Add to that neoliberalism, the capitalist commodification of human bodies.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065


Besides that, totally cool. It's really cool for men with money, not so cool for everyone else, but then that's the point, isn't it?

BainsBane

(53,010 posts)
96. It works for me
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 10:55 PM
Aug 2014

The problem must be on your end. The link is to the Social Science Research Network, to a paper on the effects of legalizing prostitution on the spread of human trafficking.

It did just now load quite slowly for me, so perhaps your browser timed out?

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
112. It worked for me =
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 PM
Aug 2014
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

World Development, 41 (1), 2013, pp. 67-82
Abstract:
This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

Number of Pages in PDF File: 48
Keywords: human trafficking, prostitution, human rights, globalization

JEL Classification: O15, F22, K42
Accepted Paper Series



1. INTRODUCTION
Much recent scholarly attention has focused on the effect of globalization on human rights
(Bjørnskov, 2008; de Soysa & Vadlamannati, 2011) and women’s rights in particular (Cho,
2011; Potrafke & Ursprung, 2012). Yet, one important, and largely neglected, aspect of
globalization with direct human rights implications is the increased trafficking of human
beings (Cho and Vadlamannati, 2012; Potrafke, 2011), one of the dark sides of globalization.
Similarly, globalization scholars with their emphasis on the apparent loss of national
sovereignty often neglect the impact that domestic policies crafted at the country level can
still exert on aspects of globalization. This article analyzes how one important domestic
policy choice – the legal status of prostitution – affects the incidence of human trafficking
inflows to countries.
Most victims of international human trafficking are women and girls. The vast
majority end up being sexually exploited through prostitution (United Nations Office of
Drugs and Crime (UNODC), 2006). Many authors therefore believe that trafficking is caused
by prostitution and combating prostitution with the force of the law would reduce trafficking
(Outshoorn, 2005). For example, Hughes (2000) maintains that “evidence seems to show that
legalized sex industries actually result in increased trafficking to meet the demand for women
to be used in the legal sex industries” (p. 651). Farley (2009) suggests that “wherever
prostitution is legalized, trafficking to sex industry marketplaces in that region increases” (p.
313).1 In its Trafficking in Persons report, the U.S. State Department (2007) states as the
official U.S. Government position “that prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing
and fuels trafficking in persons” (p. 27). The idea that combating human trafficking requires
combating prostitution is, in fact, anything but new. As Outshoorn (2005, p. 142) points out,
the UN International Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Persons from 1949 had>snip

brooklynite

(94,242 posts)
108. I assume anyone who opposes legalizing prostitution also favors banning construction?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:20 PM
Aug 2014

I mean, sure there are some people who are well paid and enjoy the work, but there are also day laborers who don't have any other job opportunities, and are underpaid and abused, so we should make it illegal for everyone, right?

BainsBane

(53,010 posts)
114. Read the paper linked above
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:48 PM
Aug 2014

and read this. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025346527
I'm not interested in theoretical discussions about capitalist utopias. You explain to me why the life of myself, children who are rapped and harassed in red light areas, and the enslaved are worth less that a man's prurient sexual desire, then we can have an honest conversation.

If you think a constructions site is anything like a red light area, you have no idea of what you are talking about. You engage in theoretical musings with complete disregard for the lives of people who are surrounded by the sex industry.

Prostitution laws are local. You don't have to impose the predation and ensuing economic blight back on our neighborhoods. You can put the prostitution where the Johns are--in middle- and upper-middle class neighborhoods --so your children can grow up being preyed up on instead of poor kids for a change. Not a single person who favors legalization wants it near them. Not one would agree to that. They want it in the poor neighborhoods where those they consider unworthy of consideration should just get used to sexual predators and economic blight. The predators children should be safe, while ours are harassed, raped, and sold into slavery. It shows complete contempt for anything other than the desires of men of means. Take your neoliberal agenda somewhere else. Turn your own communities into hell holes and leave the poor alone.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
94. In principle, I agree with you
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 10:51 PM
Aug 2014

In principle, there is nothing wrong with either activity. Both are pretty much as old as civilization and have existed in virtually all cultures in some form. But I would suggest that what we're talking about here is how we should regulate both activities when done for a profit, whether we should ban every exhibitionist with a webcam or regulate the production of commercial porn to include rubbers, STD checks, profit sharing (pretty much everyone in porn is underpaid) and so on.

Likewise, with prostitution, the question is how we regulate it to minimize or (preferably) eliminate abuses like trafficking, slavery and pimping. To my admittedly inexpert eye, the scenario where prostitutes had to be licensed and work out of licensed brothels seemed to get it right.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
260. Thank you for at least giving the issue some thought.
Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:22 PM
Aug 2014

As opposed to the knee-jerk "WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM???" bullshit.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
110. I was taught that when taking True/False tests that an absolute statement will usually be a False
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:24 PM
Aug 2014

statement. So, just playing the odds here I am going with a False premise. I really do not care one way or the other if it is legalized or not but, your original statement is false just on the face of it therefore anything following it is pretty well null and void.

Imo. Your reasoning is not really sound about Why you want to see it legalized.

That you want to see it legalized is fine by me. You are entitled to your opinion and I hope you do everything you legally can to see that you get your wish.


AuntPatsy

(9,904 posts)
111. Not so cut and dry considering the easy access children have to it, frankly I do
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:26 PM
Aug 2014

Believe having this easy access for young impressionable minds does not bold well for the need to respect each other being top priority for our youth....

I agree what we as adults do in private is our business and no one else's but to ignore what is happening to our young ones easy impressionable minds does not bold well for the soon to be adults they will be.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
117. Nothing wrong?
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 12:00 AM
Aug 2014

How about you just stick to the idea that porn should be legal and unregulated (except for "thrust" or where it is pushed) and prostitution should be decriminalized and regulated? Because I agree with both propositions and these strategies have proven to work well in practice where they have been tried (depending on form, etc.).

But "nothing wrong"? Please. Far too simple a view.

Squinch

(50,889 posts)
182. Decriminalization does not work well in practice where it has been tried.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 09:56 PM
Aug 2014

Last edited Fri Aug 8, 2014, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/international/human-rights/legalized-prostitution-human-trafficking-inflows#

Or at least it hasn't worked well in the 116 countries in this study. You may know of another 116 countries where it leads to prostitution utopia.
 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
184. Thanks for this article on the effects of legalizing prostitution.
Fri Aug 8, 2014, 11:46 PM
Aug 2014

I do not support prostitution as an industry or ever associate it with "utopia. I do however ask (as with drugs) what the right policy is for dealing with it.

Your link is not a study on legalizing prostitution per se. It is a study of the effects of legalization on human trafficking, and finds that such trafficking appears to increase to countries that have legalized, due to a larger market. Let's assume this is so, though such data can be questioned. (Do all countries report equally well on human trafficking,