It’s time to criminalise the buying, but not the selling, of sex

[redqueen]

In 1999, when Sweden passed a law criminalising the buying but not the selling of sex, many outsiders were dubious. It seemed a quirk of Sweden’s famously collectivist, earnestly feminist political culture. “In European countries, when we were talking about the Swedish model four or five years ago, people were actually laughing,” says Olga Persson, the head of a network of Swedish women’s shelters, who has pressed for other countries to adopt similar laws.

Some people still see things this way, but these days the Swedish model has lots of momentum behind it. Norway adopted it in 2008 and Iceland in 2009. Canada’s government recently proposed a version of it. Earlier this year, the European parliament approved a resolution by the British MEP Mary Honeyball calling for the Swedish model to be adopted throughout the continent. Should a Labour government be elected in the UK, Honeyball says, there could be a serious push for it.

...

In the European countries where it’s been tried, it has largely failed to bring the industry out of the shadows and improve life for sex workers. Legalising prostitution seems to increase demand, which in turn increases trafficking. A 2012 paper in the journal World Development found: “Countries with legalised prostitution have a statistically significantly larger reported incidence of human trafficking inflows.” Since full legalisation in the Netherlands, prices for sex have fallen even as the cost for sex workers to rent one of the famous red-light district windows have gone up. “prostitutes’ emotional well-being is now lower than in 2001 on all measured aspects, and the use of sedatives has increased,” says a 2007 evaluation by the Dutch justice ministry.

Sweden, meanwhile, has less prostitution than neighbouring countries and prices for sex that are the highest in Europe. Since the law was enacted, not a single sex worker has been killed while working. There are, of course, confounding factors – Sweden doesn’t have many murders to begin with – but it’s easy to see why its laws are increasingly attractive to foreign politicians.

...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/08/criminsalise-buying-not-selling-sex

[BainsBane]

1. Interesting proposal

Looks like the issue of housing remains a problem in Sweden. They need to find a way to deal with that.

[anti partisan]

2. Meh I don't see why not just legalize/regulate all of it

If someone wants to pay for sex, let them lose their money. There would probably be a lot less donations to GOP candidates too.

[BainsBane]

3. Did you see the point about increased human trafficking

that accompanies legalization? I think slavery is a pretty good reason to avoid something.

[anti partisan]

4. No I admittedly am not an expert in this

But wouldn't regulation/inspection solve most of this?

If not, I'd be interested to hear why.

[BainsBane]

6. This info is courtesty

of the poster Lantern Waste. You can click to the full study and the bottom of the page and download the paper, free of charge.

A 2012 study published in World Development, “Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?” investigated the effect of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows into high-income countries. The researchers analyzed cross-sectional data of 116 countries to determine the effect of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. In addition, they reviewed case studies of Denmark, Germany and Switzerland to examine the longitudinal effects of legalizing or criminalizing prostitution. The study’s findings include:

Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited.

Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

[anti partisan]

11. I only read the first 5 pages so far

but I'm getting the feel of the study's potential limitations.

When posed with the choice of whether or not to traffic into Country A where prostitution is legalized, or Country B where it is not, I think it's fairly obvious that the trafficker will choose Country B.

But the question I would have is, is the existence of Country A actually leading to increased global human trafficking, or is it simply acting as a magnet, drawing away inflows from other countries?

If you want to limit human trafficking into YOUR country, I would believe this study to be very convincing, but consider two possible endgames:
1. Prostitution is illegal everywhere (or 1a. Legal to sell but not to buy)
2. Prostitution is legal everywhere

This is ultimately what we have to figure out. In which case will there be less trafficking, as inevitable policy globalization occurs?

[BainsBane]

25. Your endgames are hypothetical

Human lives are not. There is no scenario in which all countries cooperate in some capitalist fantasy someone on DU comes up with. Real lives are at stake, real human beings sold into slavery. Do you understand most prostitution is of under age girls and boys? Another poster made it clear that is what he sought to legalize--the violation of little girls as young as 9 whom he insisted "willingly chose the profession."

The rest of you are engaging in theoretical musings about people's lives, lives you know nothing about and treat as though they are nothing but an intellectual exercise. These are really human beings who are enslaved, real children who are raped.

What causes human trafficking and the child rape they call prostitution is not legality or illegality but the fact some men feel entitled to any kind of sex they want and seek absolute power over the objects of their sexual desire. And here, self-described liberals imagine sex as the highest form of liberty. They cling to neoliberal fantasies about consenting adults and ignore all the evidence showing that the result is the selling of those who do not consent and are not adults.

This is about entitlement, about those who think themselves entitled to buy anything, including human beings, and a notion of individual rights vested exclusively in men of means.

[anti partisan]

36. I don't take kindly to being strawmanned

I care as much about the problem as anyone and none of these studies (yes I did read most of the pdf later) actually show how legalizing prostitution in one country leads to a global increase in trafficking. That's a problem with the economists's mindset - they are scoring cheap points in academia by proving something which leads us no closer to a solution or answer.

If you really cared about these underage girls and boys, why not look at the facts with an open mind and strive for the best policy to decrease it? This is a serious issue and those who care, such as ourselves, should not be fighting, and should instead looking for solutions.

[redqueen]

7. Here's the paper referenced at the link.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf

There is also a wealth of material on the net about this revolutionary method of dealing with the problem.

Much if not most of the support for legalization is from so-called 'advocates' for prostitutes who are actually pimps and brothel owners. So it is important to be aware of where the information is coming from.

This is a multi-billion dollar industry, so just as with oil and gas, there are a lot of industry mouthpieces out there fighting desperately against anything that would reduce their profits.

[War Horse]

8. Nothing will ever solve this

There's a reason why it's called the worlds' second oldest occupation.

Criminalizing those poor souls who sell sex just makes matters worse for them. But prosecuting those who buy sex, i.e. buy other people, however, yes, I'm all for that. And yes, I guess I'm 'moralizing' here...

[redqueen]

63. If you read about the situation where the Nordic model has been implemented

and I mean read things from women's advocacy groups (not industry mouthpieces. Pimps and brothel owners do a lot of astroturfing, posing as 'sex workers'), you'll find that it drastically reduces violence against prostitutes, stops the prices from plummeting, prevents demand from soaring, and virtually eliminates human trafficking for the sex trade. All in direct contrast to the reality on the ground in areas where prostitution is legal.

[ancianita]

5. Amen, sista. It's past time. Thanks for the post.

[dickthegrouch]

9. Color me clueless

How does one sell, without someone else buying?
Does not compute.

[hifiguy]

26. Indeed. I am flummoxed by this.

[Squinch]

10. This is a GREAT idea, and it will solve all the problems that all the anti-prudery warriors on DU

are always saying are the reason they want to legalize prostitution.

And yet...

...I foresee that those same anti-prudery warriors will not like this idea. I'm psychic that way...

[PowerToThePeople]

12. Good idea. eom

[Squinch]

14. I just...

[Squinch]

15. ... want to...

[Squinch]

16. ...kick this...

[Squinch]

17. ... a few...

[Squinch]

18. ... times.

[grahamhgreen]

19. Should either be illegal?

[redqueen]

23. Did you read the linked editorial? nt

[Schema Thing]

20. meh. Punish pimping of any sort in the absolute harshest of manners

throw.away.the.key.

but leave what consenting adults do up to consenting adults.

[redqueen]

24. The thing is, it is very profitable.

If it is legal for an adult to buy sex, then someone is going to ensure that buyers who don't want 'consenting adults' (whether because they don't like condoms, or they want to do whatever they want - including acts 'consenting adults' refuse to perform, or because they want underage prostitutes) are able to purchase what they want.

That is why it has to be addressed on the demand side.

[Schema Thing]

27. And that person would be accurately called a "pimp"

..and is where 100% of the law should focus.


I think the death penalty, if we are going to have it at all, should be applied to anyone actually engaging in slavery.

[redqueen]

29. Yeah that's kinda like what they do with drug dealers now.

That seems to be working wonders, yes?

The only difference is in this case, it's human lives that are abused, not drugs.

[Schema Thing]

31. And drugs-being-illegal at the street level is what gives drug kingpins

much of their power at the top level.

[anti partisan]

38. I really just hope you aren't trying to justify drugs being illegal at a higher level

...but not street level.

Do you know what a legal mess that would cause, and how the most successful kingpins would be the ones with the best chance of getting out of it because they could afford the best legal team?

And that is not anyhow comparable to prostitution where pimps/madams sell the services of their workers. There is a clear distinction between the marketer/seller and the worker. Not so in the drug trade because the drug itself is the product, not sex with a human.

[redqueen]

41. Do you know how much organized crime is involved in prostitution where it's legal?

This is one of the major challenges the Netherlands has to deal with. Their little project has turned into a global hub for money laundering and human trafficking.

[mimi85]

44. Do you really think

the threat of the death penalty would deter these people just like any other crime? I seriously doubt it.

[Schema Thing]

80. I think we don't put enough resources and teeth into our

fight against any and all sorts of human trafficking (including pimping), and I think ALL laws that instead focus
on consenting, non-harmful behavior are bad laws and immoral in that they divert attention and resources away from the real bad actors. Prostitution and pot both come to mind.

The DEA for example, is uniquely positioned to focus on human trafficking, but I'd wager they are much more interested in finding out how a gang moves marijuana than how that same gang moves kids - or even whether that gang moves kids at all!

[freshwest]

21. I understand the effects wanted here, but not the mechanism. Are sellers reporting the buyers?

Last edited Sat Aug 9, 2014, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)

The application seems impossible due to the terms being used.

I agree with 'price' going up with the Swedish model, and going down with legalization.

It increases sex trafficking when sex is viewed as a market function and thrifty buyers will go for the vulnerable in society to get what they want for cheap or better yet, for nothing.

That's the reason the world has had, and still has, slavery of all kinds. It's a great deal for those with power, so they will tell any lie to keep it going. It's theft of another's life.

Chomsky asks why should we improve the practice being discussed to begin with instead of providing lucrative employment. I agree with him when he says it is an economic issue and not a matter of freedom for one party, the buyer, when the seller has little or no better options than to sell their body, the LCD. I also agree with Hedges that liberals have a blind spot bordering on inhumane on the practice.

Bain's OP on that was an excellent example of how those in poverty are being exploited in a third world fashion within our own country right now in this particular instance. And there is a more brutal sex traffic with immigrants and children that weren't in her OP, as the market forces drove down the cost of the human body for the brief pleasures of buyers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025346527

Of course, it is more than just that one instance and in many other things in our country from which wealth has been made and is being made today. As to this one, I won't go into what I know, of the girls kidnapped to be used for free, or women coerced by having no other choice for food or shelter, to titillate the masses at DU.

IMO, sex between willing partners should be a gift that is freely given, with no financial aspect involved. It is too valuable a thing to be reduced to being used as a commodity and to imply any such thing has a market value if not given freely for one's personal reasons degrades sex. If one really loves having sex one could have sex with no pay for it, because a payment implies it was not a freely given thing. I won't get into an argument over this opinion. That's mine. Others vary, but they won't convince me sex is not beyond a market price.

Imagine a world with real equality and opportunity to choose, with partners educated as to the effects and consequences, and for whom it is a choice with no way to be forced. It is one which many have availed themselves, because it is a matter of economic class and the resulting freedom to freely choose when and why, one would have sex.

Okay, went off topic. Need coffee. Interesting OP.

[redqueen]

22. No, prostitutes don't report the buyers, those are their customers.

Unless maybe they're violent.


"payment implies it was not a freely given thing."

Indeed. I completely agree.

[Wounded Bear]

28. Yeah, it's worked so well with drugs and all...

Yeah, that's snarky, but perhaps we should look at another tactic.

[redqueen]

30. No it hasn't been tried with drugs, and the situation is completely different.

Nice try though.

[Wounded Bear]

33. Well, the prisons are packed...

with people on possession charges, while the cartels and dealers walk free, so I think the situation is similar.

I'm all for prosecuting people who vicitimize others. I strongly support prohibition of human trafficking and child prostitution among other things. But prosecuting "users" is a poor strategy. The demand will continue to exist, because there are weirdos out there. Prohibition tends to drive up prices, and thus making it more lucrative and attractive to unscrupulous 'business' types out to make a quick buck.

Now, arresting individual prostitutes and streetwalkers is a poor strategy, too. They just live in a revolving door of incarcertion, typically. Until we get after the big money behind the industry, nothing will improve.

[redqueen]

42. Men who buy sex are not like drug users. They aren't engaging in a victimless crime.

Making it legal for them to buy sex drives up demand, this has been proven over and over.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. that's a model that could work, however, my best bet is that no one would take it up

sweden is more gender egalitarian than we are here, and more sex positive. i think we want the 'sluts' to suffer and allow the boys to be boys.

[redqueen]

37. No one besides Norway, Iceland, France...

possibly also Canada, the UK, various cities in the US, etc.

[Nye Bevan]

34. Who is going to set up safe, clean brothels with good security and health checks for the workers

if it is illegal for people to purchase the product?

Prostitution is going to happen one way or another. So legalize, tax and regulate and use the tax revenue to crack down on human trafficking.

[redqueen]

40. Please don't refer to women as "the product". nt

[Kurska]

46. Sex is the product, way to ignore the point though. n/t

[redqueen]

48. Do you know the meaning of the term? Apparently not.

[Kurska]

50. If someone pays me to play violin for them.

Are they buying me am I the product? Or is the music the product?

But anything that makes it look as bad as possible. We all know about the vested interests that can cause us to distort issues.

[redqueen]

51. Oh My Goddess. Sex is a SERVICE.

Products are THINGS.

The language we use sure does convey an awful lot.

[Kurska]

52. LOL You said "please don't refer to women as the product"

When he was referring to sex as the product and that is what I corrected you on.

Unless you consider women to be sex, which is just bizarre, but okay.

[redqueen]

54. Other people's poor grasp of grammar and usage isn't my problem. nt

[Kurska]

55. Okay buddy, cause that is totally what you were talkin bout n/t

[redqueen]

56. Understanding the meaning of the terms 'product' and 'service' is not exactly rocket science. nt

[Kurska]

57. And that wasn't what you were talking about

As much is evident to anyone reading your original post.

[redqueen]

59. Now I just feel sorry for you.

Not sure what you're here for but I prefer rational discussion to.. whatever you're doing.

Bye.

[Kurska]

61. See ya buddy n/t

[ismnotwasm]

35. My problem with the whole issue is that the majority of purchasers are sexual entitled males

Women-- who fake orgasm in numbers that are shocking, do not have this resource, there are no proper training schools ala "Firefly", prostitutes have no or little respect--often want out--and legal or not, trafficking increasing where it's either legal or where women's sexuality is severely repressed. Plus the whole concept of prostitution is a left over from religion. Like a dirty secret. We are a sexually immature species.

Don't get me started about the economics of prostitution.

I support the Nordic model until this situation changes. Which right now, is science fiction.

[redqueen]

43. Exactly, it is science fiction.

It is so annoying when people say they support a sex industry that is safe for women, free of coercion, with no pimps, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

It has been legal for years in many places, and the utopia they imagine will result does not materialize. Instead, things get worse.

How many women and children have to suffer before more people catch on?

What's more annoying is when people quote pimps as if they're advocates for prostitutes. That is just beyond stupid.

[DonCoquixote]

39. OK, I can understand arresting the Johns

However, there is one thing I want to ask. One of the main arguments against making prostitutes legal, just like everybody else workers, is that human traffickign will increase.

As awful as that is, is it not the countries that are willing to import the labor doign the crime?

Now, if you wonder why I say this, it is because we deal with similar issues when we talk of sweatshops and migrant workers. We jail the immigrant, we jail the smuggler, we someetimes, (though rarely) jail someone that beniftted from the labor. However, the rich fat cats that cause the demand, be it for cheap worker in the cane fields, cheap workers in the sweatshops, or cheap workers in the brothels, do NOT get focused on.

In other words, if places in Western Europe that tried to legalize prostitution failed because the human traffickers showed up, why, are these not the same human traffickers that fill sweatshops, the same ones who get non union farmhands? The problem will just be driven underground, where the explitation can and will be cranked up.

I understand that sex crimes are against women, and that some fear that by waiting to adress the social and economic issues that feed into the sex trade, they might be forgotten. That should nto happen, however, if you ignore the economy that makes cheap farm labor and sweatshop workers, you could easily miss the one that makes sex trade worlers, especially since, as walys, the hammer falls hardest on the women, be they overworked farmhands, overworked factory workers, or sex workers.

I also say this ebcause the countries that made a muck of makign a safe, legal trade of sex are, by absolutely NO coincidence, among the worst at preying on Third World women. It is no accident that France's Dominique Strauss-Kahn, when he got caught raping a maid from Africa, was able to talk so brazenly about how normal this was. Was it also a coincidence he was one of the poeple that cause so much suffering for Women worldwide through the IMF, absolutely not. Both reflect the attitude that "I am a powerful white man that can get away with whatever the hell I want to." And, while sex trade does need to focus, and yes the Johns need to be dis couraged, until we focus on making an economy where no one HAS to sell anything, much less their BODY to eat, we will be back right where we were, with the DSK's in the world lighting cigars.

[redqueen]

45. Not sure what you're saying.

It isn't the country that trafficks human beings for profit. It's criminals.

There is so much profit in the sex industry that having legalized prostitution is guaranteed to draw them to the area, because it makes it so much easier to engage in that particular kind of criminal activity.

[DonCoquixote]

75. ok let me refine it

If legalized prostituion is bad because it makes human traffic more intense, well, so would farming. Farming even more so,because it requires more people. I am not trying to be flippant, because in Florida I see where the great granchildren of slave owners keep Mexicans in the literal same slave cabins they kept black people in (and they BRAG about it.)

So my point is that if legalized prostituion is bad because it draws in criminals, well, that can bleed into so many areas that the issue can become muddled. It is the state, be it the EU, be it the US, that allows exploitation of women as labor, be it for picking tomatoes, working in sweatshops, or brothels. My point is that it is oen thing to attack the johns, discourage something, yes, but if you are going to going to attacklegalization measures, you might wind up where all legalization measures go, between women who cannot get a lawyer and the system that will make a profit exploiting them, be they the cops or criminals.

Again, not debating the idea of discouraging it by going after the johns, however, the ultimate way to reduce the sex trade is not to drive it underground, where the cirminals will not have to worry about taxes or oevrsight, but to make conditions where women will not need to do this to eat.

[Kurska]

47. Makes it impossible to have safe brothels.

Keeps prostitution out in the street and the bad areas (where the cops aren't, so where the customers will be). Which keeps prostitutes in grave danger, meanwhile we're continuing to criminalize sexuality.

Legal and regulated, that is how it ought to be.

Plus, it would never legally fly in the united states. The very idea that you can have a product legal to sell, but illegal to buy would be destroyed by the courts.

[99Forever]

49. Stupidest fucking thing I have read in years.

Even stupider than crap I seen from Teabaggers.

Why am I not surprised?

[Kurska]

53. B-b-but if we don't invent a stupid complicated system that ulitmately doesn't make it any safer

How can we continue our moral crusader while still pretending that concern for the prostitutes is our primary concern?

[redqueen]

58. Have you read *anything* about the Nordic model that wasn't the product of sex industry mouthpieces?

Claiming that it doesn't reduce violence against women in prostitution indicarres you haven't.

[Kurska]

60. Reduction isn't enough, I want it eliminated.

Johns aren't doing jack where the police can pick them off easily. This still puts prostitutes into dangerous situations. A safe and strictly regulated brothel with state blessing would be far better.

But continue to ignore the easy solution under your nose, because it doesn't comply with your puritanism.

[opiate69]

65. Have *you* read *anything* about pornography that wasn't the product of the religious right?

[redqueen]

66. Of course. Like this:

Once again you demonstrate that you either barely read anything or you don't understand what you're reading.

Or maybe it's logic itself that's the problem.

Because I cite one or several religious or conservative people in reference to the progressive view on an issue, that does not imply that those are the only people whose views I read or hear.

I can agree with Ron Paul about military policy but nothing else. I can do the same with respect to Dennis Kucinich. Just because I agree with an individual about one issue, that does not mean I agree with them about every issue.

Do you understand how that works?

[opiate69]

91. and this gentleman's credentials are what exactly?

Oh. He's a student of gender studies at Tel Aviv university...and his personal anecdote is the penultimate word on the matter eh?
The plural of anecdote is not data.

[redqueen]

92. ...

[opiate69]

94. What, couldn't find anymore wisdom from 18 year old bloggers to respond with?

[davidn3600]

62. That's like saying lets make it legal to sell drugs but illegal to buy them

You want women to be out selling themselves and for that to be legal. But when a man attempts to buy the sex, police pounce on him while the woman walks away to try and find the next john.

Of course feminists support that! That sounds awesome to have laws not apply to them.

It's already illegal to buy sex in the United States. Men get arrested for it all the time. Why do you want women who sell it to have special privileges?

[redqueen]

64. This system is being used in the most progressive countries.

I'm not going to discuss it with people who aren't seriously interested in the issue.

Neoliberals can go continue to ignore it amongst themselves.

[davidn3600]

72. You dont want to discuss this with anyone that doesn't share your opinions on it

You want to completely disregard the opinions of sex workers. You claim to be trying to help these people yet ignore everything they say and ignore their opinions. And why is that? Because apparently their opinions don't exactly fit into your bigger political agenda you support. Feminists constantly attack women who choose EVEN ON THEIR OWN FREE WILL to do sex work or film pornography.
And then you sit there and wonder why "#WomenAgainstFeminism" is going viral on social networks.

[hunter]

85. "Why do you want women who sell it to have special privileges?"

Decriminalization of prostitution is not a solution to the problems; it's all about harm reduction.

As the law exists now prostitutes are caught in a system where they can be abused by their clients, by their pimps, by their "boyfriends," and have nowhere to turn for justice because they will also be abused by the legal system, starting with the police, in jail, and by the courts.

Our society seems to regard paying a prostitute as a license to rape so long as the prostitute is not severely damaged in a physical way. Even when a prostitute's paid sexual encounters are usually "consensual" most prostitutes will have horror stories about clients and cops who shouldn't be freely roaming the streets.

In our society the "lonely guy" theory of prostitution is mostly bullshit. The client is usually on some kind of power trip, real or imaginary. It's about what they can make a man or woman, a boy or girl, do; what normal social boundaries they can pay someone to break, even when these social boundaries are entirely imaginary within the client's own head.

There are plenty of social boundaries that exist for good reason, however. Adults who seek sex with children, sex with people kept as slaves, sex with drugged non-consenting adults, and violent misogynistic, homophobic, or transphobic sexual encounters, these people really ought to be kept off the streets.

Non-corrupt law enforcement must have the tools to go after the guy who is propositioning thirteen year olds on his way to visit his regular hooker, they must have to have the tools to shut down demand for prostitutes who are victims of the coercive sex trade. But they also have to leave the door open for prostitutes who have suffered violent, non-consensual sexual encounters, or live in conditions of slavery or fear.

The analogies to the "drug war" are false. The plight of the prostitute is more similar to that of the undocumented worker. The undocumented worker fears deportation so they are less likely to complain about substandard pay or intolerable dangerous working conditions. Thus they are abused. A prostitute fears entanglements with our legal system, and thus does not report abusive or dangerous clients. In both these situations those paying for the "services" are protected. The workers are not.

[redqueen]

93. Beautifully said.

Thank you so, so very much.

[woolldog]

67. ....

[redqueen]

68. Sigh. Look into the types of offenses that are characterized as rape in these countries.

Consider how the climate of gender relations in the country impacts whether or not women even bother to report rape.

I suppose it is too much to expect progressives who claim to be interested in these topics to be aware of them.

Or then again, maybe there just aren't that many progressives on DU who take the issue seriously at all. The neoliberal position is wildly popular here, so why bother with any research, right?

[woolldog]

69. educate me, redqueen

I admit I'm not knowledgeable on this topic, but since researching these laws and stats is obviously an interest of yours, explain it to me.

These statistics look damning, but maybe there's a reasonable explanation for why Sweden's rape rate per 100k is 3 times that of the US, and 60 times that of Canada where prostitution has been decriminalized, I think.

[redqueen]

70. Are you fucking serious?

There's a Wikipedia entry for rape in Sweden. Start there.

[woolldog]

71. Yes I'm serious.

I don't have time to research that. Give me the quick and dirty explanation please.

[edgineered]

74. Looked at it, and it said

what one should have expected it to say.

By broadening the legal definition to not only include sexual intercourse but comparable sexual acts initiated against a person in a helpless state, incapable of giving consent, etc, the stats shown are misleading. Also misleading is the switch-up in the guardians article of your original op; they have us thinking Sweden, but then go to Netherlands and talk of the Dutch. Combine that with the graph by woolldogg, and unless following closely, the point is missed.

Legislating sex offenses to be sex offenses, as done in Sweden, allows for solving a much larger chunk of the problem than handling it issue by issue does.

[woolldog]

77. Thank you.

Is the argument that without the expansive definition of rape that exists in Sweden, their rape rate would be lower than the US, Belgium etc?

[edgineered]

78. There weren't any numbers

to indicate either that I could see. It seems that the better the problem is defined the better our being able to figure out what to do. For now we cannot even agree on what the problem is. I tend to look at it from the side of not wanting to see people suffer from poor choices, whether their own or from the choices forced upon them. Many refuse to consider things outside their current beliefs - by not changing their beliefs the people they once judge unfavorably will always be judged unfavorably.

I like that Sweden has taken steps to remove the stigma associated with being a victim.

[LittleBlue]

73. The myth of the Swedish Model

We live in a free society where consenting adults are entitled to exercise their sexual freedom in any way they choose. Whether we like it or not, criminalising the buying and selling of sex is an attempt to legislate morality and exercise control over private sexual behaviour. Sex workers are human beings and selling sex is their business. Sex workers must be entitled to the same labour rights as other workers and the same human rights as other people. It is vulnerability, not sex work, which creates victims.

1. The Swedish Model of sex work makes it illegal to buy sexual services, but not to sell them.

2. The model has been adopted by Norway, Iceland and France. Labour MEP Mary Honeyball wants the UK to adopt the same policy, but she has her facts and figures wrong.

3. So wrong that 560 NGOs and civil society organisations, as well as 86 academics and researchers have written to her to voice their objections. They urge other EU member states not to criminalise the purchase of sex...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/suzi-godson/swedish-prostitution-laws_b_4911172.html

UN Human Rights Report: Legalize Prostitution to End Trafficking

http://sexandthestate.com/un-human-rights-report-legalize-prostitution-to-end-trafficking/

Not surprisingly, the experiment has failed. In the 13 years since the law was enacted, the Swedish government has been unable to prove that the law has reduced the number of sex buyers or sellers or stopped trafficking. All it has to show for its efforts are a (contested) public support for the law and more danger for street-based sex workers. Despite this failure, the government has chosen to ignore the evidence and proclaim the law to be a success; it also continues to advocate that other countries should adopt a similar law.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ruth-jacobs/prostitution-laws_b_4851224.html

Don't believe the myth pushers, support decriminalization

[flvegan]

76. Am I reading this right? Criminalize one half of the contract between two consenting adults

regardless of the exchange of money, there's a contract between the two.

Oh, sorry. Just saw the poster's name. Got it.

[treestar]

81. I thought that was already the case

Some undercover officers pose as prostitutes to get the buyers. I agree they are the ones who should be focused on, though. The sellers are likely to be desperate economically - it's the buyers who exploit that.

[redqueen]

82. No. Most of those convicted are prostitutes. A small minority are pimps. Very few buyers

are punished.

[former9thward]

83. Neither should be criminalized.

Prostitution is legal in certain counties of Nevada and I have never heard any problems with it.

[redqueen]

84. Have you looked into it?

In most cases, the problems caused by insanely profitable industries aren't exactly trumpeted.

Especially not this industry, for which even most on the left are willing to ignore abuses and believe industry mouthpieces, astroturf groups, etc.

[former9thward]

86. No I have not looked into it.

And not being a reporter I have no idea how I would look into it. But if there were major problems I'm sure it would have popped up on the internet by now.

[redqueen]

87. There are more illegal prostitutes there than legal ones.

Because the women keep more of the money, and the buyers are more likely to use them, due to lower fees.

Because they're not on the legal market, the same problems as ever plague the women and children involved.

Legalization solves nothing. It just drives up demand, drives down prices, and lures traffickers.

[former9thward]

88. Make it legal and then there will be no illegals by definition.

The two counties in NV are just a small little area. Of course they are not going to solve the problem.

[redqueen]

89. That's not how it works. It's legal in many places all over the world, this isn't guesswork.

Wherever it is legal, there is still underground prostitution, because many men don't want to use condoms. Many want to engage in acts which legal prostitutes will not agree to engage in. Many men want underage prostitutes.

And where prostitution is legal, it is much easier for pimps and traffickers to satisfy the demand these men create.

[former9thward]

90. Some people want to do illegal acts.

In other news water is wet. Nothing you have suggested would change any of that.