General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's time to decriminalize the buying and selling of sex
as the victimless crime that it is.
There are of course "invisible" victims of such business relationships, as there are other of the now legal and illegal kind. Take those victims the bartender never sees, or the local drug dealer for example. The former is no longer a crime, and the latters "victimless crime" designation applies ONLY to the participants in the deal, because it's mutually beneficial.
It's really as simple as doing a pro/con list on the matter. This of course requires objectivity that moral purists http://legalize-prostitution.com/benefits-of-legalizing-prostitution lack, who should be excluded from the discussion or debate if that's all they can bring to the table.
Imo the benefits of legalization outweigh the drawbacks of maintaining its illegality. Feel free to argue with the authors here http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#effects http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/legalizing-prostitution-brings-protection-and-better-care http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#effects for starters, and concluding with
The researchers warn that due to the clandestine nature of both trafficking and prostitution markets, their analysis had to rely on the best available existing data on reported human trafficking inflows. That legalised prostitution increases human trafficking inflows is likely, but cannot be proven with available evidence. The researchers also note that other reasons might speak against prohibiting prostitution despite its impact on human trafficking.
The article concludes: The likely negative consequences of legalised prostitution on a countrys inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favour of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalisation of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutesat least those legally employedif prostitution is legalised. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky freedom of choice issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2012/12/Legalised-prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx
given that the increase in trafficking appears to be what seems to be of most concern to those not the simple moral purist who has trouble with sex outside of marriage period, whether paid for or not. Legalizing prostitution doesn't legalize human trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking much as legalizing alcohol as an intoxicant didn't legalize a host of other intoxicants or spare them from criminalization. It became legal again because the pro-list outgrew the con-list where the HT consideration resides in this controversy. HT and prostitution similarities begin and end with the sex that they share, other than the similar conditions that a pimp might subject his "victims" to that legalization would go a long way towards eliminating.
Just don't mention the facts about teenage, etc, prostitution, http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/02/teen-prostitution-in-america/ because one of them might mistake you for a participant in such, because as we know, to the dishonest and desperate merely noting the facts in this particular matter, as it has been in others, is tantamount to support, advocacy, if not being guilty of the crime of being involved in such. But quite frankly, I think all the issues involved are too many and complicated for that type to wrap their little minds around, so they too should be excluded from this "debate". What many of would consider common knowledge , like this
In some ways, it's simply part of a kid's natural journey toward independence. But child development experts say that physical and behavioral changes that would have been typical of teenagers decades ago are now common among "tweens" kids ages 8 to 12.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15905527/ns/health-childrens_health/t/new-kids-grow-faster/
they remain ignorant of. Once upon a time I had a particularly stupid person charge me with pedophilia advocacy for merely suggesting that this might lead to some confusion on the part of the non-pedophile as age limits define pedophilia legally, and who mighta thought they were merely soliciting an underage teenage girl. Both of these things are of course unacceptable, and are two slightly different things as well. How keeping prostitution of the "Pretty Woman" kind illegal is gonna end or deter pedophiles or human trafficking remains a mystery to me. It seems to me that freeing the police from the time consuming affair of chasing pimps and their prostitutes would give them more time to pursue the other separate and distinct crimes of pedophilia and human trafficking.
As far as I am concerned, the increased potential for catching and punishing those things alone is sufficient justification for leaving Ed AND Vivian alone.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)A confidential witness told police she was kidnapped and forced to watch as members of a human trafficking ring tortured and killed Saunders to send a message to others to cooperate with their illegal activities.
Neither prosecutors nor police would comment on that aspect of the killing.
http://newsok.com/two-men-charged-in-carina-saunders-killing-affidavit-details-torture/article/3694786
They dismembered her alive to teach her a lesson and to teach a lesson to the girls they made watch it.
Does DU really need this fucking flood of bullshit threads insisting we legalize the sex trade just because some of you can't get laid?
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)not to cross them.
Doesn't change the fact that pot should be legal.
Fortunately for us all, dismemberment is and always will be a crime.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)People are not objects to acquire.
The nature of the activity differs tremendously.
But your example above is precisely why I refuse to buy illegal drugs.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)No thanks to that way of thinking/living.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)vs. exploitation, enslavement and child rape? Why should you care about the latter? What do human rights compare to male sexual entitlement? Yeah, I get that's the prevailing neoliberal ethos. No one matters but the self. Ayn Rand lives on.
This discussion of prostitution gives a perfect illustration of why exploitation and inequality prevails around the earth. Why should anyone care about morality or social justice when all that matters is themselves?
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)of not caring about social justice, exploitation, and inequality simply for not agreeing with you that sex between consenting adults should be illegal.
You haven't seen the forest in a very long time.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)And then tell me I don't get to talk about social justice? What do you think social justice is founded on?
What consenting adults? A good percentage of prostitutes are well underage. It's legalization has been shown to lead to increased human trafficking. It is an industry that brings with it a tremendous amount of damage, even when legal. Pretending that's about someone's private sex life is to willfully ignore reality.
4now
(1,596 posts)Murder is not.
Most people can tell the difference.
mythology
(9,527 posts)I love how the authors say that sure it's likely prostitution increases human trafficking, but it can't be proven so let's ignore it. That's the same incompetent logic that says because we can't prove a given storm is a result of climate change.
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)
Post removed
leftstreet
(36,081 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)Response to leftstreet (Reply #2)
Post removed
redqueen
(115,096 posts)That way your OP isn't solely whining about jury results
Maybe if you weren't so insistent about your vile opinion that children are capable of choosing to prostitute themselves you wouldn't have gotten a hide.
Good luck with your quest.
Skittles
(152,967 posts)yes indeed
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I'm going to use that in the future - super useful. And putting debate in quotation marks - genius! It plants the idea that there is only one side in this discussion - your side!
Bryant
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)That is a Hollywood fantasy.
Earlier you were quite clear about the reality of the "profession" you sought to legalize.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5357740
Which was intended for evidence for a point made at the end of this post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5347357
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)rationalize their use of women with no emotional connection.
I'm particularly bothered by the hint that even underage prostitution is somehow OK. I find that particularly nauseating.
ETA: I visited the link where it was said that some underaged girls choose prostitution. FEH! I can believe that could be stated here without a ban.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Truly awful, blood-curdling in fact.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)anyone who uses a clearly underaged prostitute should get a minimum sentence of at least 20 years in prison. LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!
JI7
(89,182 posts)but i'm not surprised . it's always sleazy types trying to push this. and we are to believe they are concerned for the girls/women ?
historylovr
(1,557 posts)That was revolting.
REP
(21,691 posts)The TL;DR seems to be: "got locked out a thread, here's some more inane rambling."
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)to figure out what he's saying.
REP
(21,691 posts)and doesn't want to hear from anyone who thinks that's skeevy as hell.
historylovr
(1,557 posts)And I thought the recent torture support op was the most disgusting thing I could read on here.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)because I find them to be condescending and dismissive. As if no one who disagrees with you has a right to their opinion.
And yes, your 6-1 hide was frankly well earned. In context, that was a disgusting and disingenuous post.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)prostitution? I admit I'm not perfectly consistent all the time - no human being is - but there's a difference between having an honest objection to the way someone approaches or frames an issue, and merely using the "tone argument" as an excuse to be dismissive. Not that the line between the two is set in stone, by any means.
To put it another way, where do you see that the OP "has a good reason for being upset"? In what way is he a victim of injustice?
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Merely pointing out what I see as a glaring hypocrisy. Calling others to the carpet for the ridiculous "tone argument" charge, then turning around and doing the exact same thing is, at best, talking out of both sides of ones mouth.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)More the guy's insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with him stupid and irrelevant. That, coupled with some of his earlier posts, hardly paints him in a positive light. I mean, the post that got hidden 6-1 was really egregious - should've been 7-0, quite honestly.
And more broadly, I also take issue with the general dismissiveness towards anyone with qualms about the sex industry. I'm very much anti-censorship, and I have no problem with explicit material in and of itself, but some folks don't seem to even want to have the discussion. Which kind of makes me wonder what they're afraid of...
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Gee... that doesn't sound like anybody else some of us have been dealing with for the better part of 12 years, does it? Whatever.. I have better things to do than dissect inanities on a message board. Enjoy your evening.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)below.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Oh, right. This guy: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5361450
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)(no idea what, if anything, you prefer to imbibe, but here's a beer anyway lol)
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Nomorenomore08 was trying to be polite. It's entirely about content, particularly as expressed in the hidden post the OP is whining about.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)because I find them to be condescending and dismissive
And on that note, I'll go back to my blissful policy of non-engagement. Have fun storming the castle.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Prostitution has always been used to subject women to the will of men.
I can understand the intellectual argument about a person's right to choose what to do with his or her body, but that argument is wrong. The amount of suffering inflicted on women by men coercing them to have sex for money outweighs any and all possible harm done by restricting the rights of people who would choose to exchange sex for money of their own free will.
It isn't even a close call.
I would even support a federal law which would effectively close down the industry in Nevada.
I also find the argument you presented in the OP about how legalizing it might reduce the human trafficking problem laughable. There might be a short term drop off, but legalizing prostitution would greatly increase it in the long run. There is already a problem with women being brought into this country with the promise of a job who are then forced to dance in strip clubs and prostitute themselves to pay for being brought to the U.S.. It is indentured servitude within the sex industry. Legalizing any portion of that is a huge mistake.
What we need to do is to create good jobs and a reasonable way of life for people. Not to make prostitution more agreeable. It needs to be reduced, not increased. IMO, any other position on this subject is misguided.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)With regard to prostitution, I think the best solution would be to legalize the selling of sex on the proviso that every prostitute operates out of a state-licensed brothel. That seems to both accept that prostitution will always exist but also gives us avenues to ensure everyone involved is of legal age, willing and has STD checks.
On porn: I think porn should be legal to both produce and consume but with additional safeguards like mandatory STD checks, age regulation and profit-sharing (pretty much everyone in porn is underpaid).
One of my friends was in porn, my SO used to be a phone sex operator (i.e. the person who talks dirty on the phone to you, usually while playing internet Scrabble) and I write erotica so I know a bit about the sex trade. Outright banning it has simply failed. What can be done is to enact safeguards for everyone involved.