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Kurska

(5,739 posts)
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:00 AM Aug 2014

I have the right to perform a sexual service in exchange for money.

And so do you.

You can regulate rights, just like we can have reasonable limits on freedom of speech (libel/slander). But at the end of the day you can not absolutely restrict my right to engage in sexual behaviors with a consenting partner for whatever reason we could possibly imagine. You can regulate it for my safety, you can limit it just like you can tell me I can't work for less than X dollars an hour.

But you can't tell me I can't do it, period.

When people say they want to ban prostitution, remember this simple fact. They are saying they know better than you what you ought to do with your body and they want the force of law behind them.

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I have the right to perform a sexual service in exchange for money. (Original Post) Kurska Aug 2014 OP
I wonder how long it's going to take for someone to offer you money to go fuck yourself? Electric Monk Aug 2014 #1
Wait, they'll pay you to do that? Kurska Aug 2014 #2
According to Limbaugh, only if you post the video. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #65
I hadn't heard Limbaugh was into that, but it doesn't sound surprising. Got any links? nt Electric Monk Aug 2014 #69
Remember the Sandra Fluke bit where he called her a slut? Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #73
If Limbaugh politely asks for a video of my ass. Kurska Aug 2014 #75
Ah, I see you're a traditionalist.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #90
DUzy! arcane1 Aug 2014 #6
Pretty sure that's available LittleBlue Aug 2014 #12
You survived, 5-2 n/t n2doc Aug 2014 #101
Thats illegal in Alabama. Katashi_itto Aug 2014 #127
And many marriages are also basically that ... n/t RKP5637 Aug 2014 #3
Why does your comment customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #5
Don't know ... didn't say that. n/t RKP5637 Aug 2014 #8
Just was giving you a chance to back away customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #25
People get married for all sorts of reasons IMO, for example, RKP5637 Aug 2014 #28
"Gold diggers" customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #35
... RKP5637 Aug 2014 #41
It's actually more like 'many wives are basically prostitutes', actually. nt redqueen Aug 2014 #13
I think that happens, for whatever reason, they feel trapped ... could be financial, illness, a RKP5637 Aug 2014 #30
Not so much anymore JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #129
Yep! n/t RKP5637 Aug 2014 #132
It doesn't. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #34
OK, in the uncivilized parts of the world customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #40
After all, when isn't genocide the answer? n/t Gore1FL Aug 2014 #78
zing! Schema Thing Aug 2014 #142
It's not genocide customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #162
You advocated for their extinction. Gore1FL Aug 2014 #163
No, their ideologies do customerserviceguy Aug 2014 #164
Already happening in slow motion in places like India and China sadly. n/t Kurska Aug 2014 #85
I didn't take it that way at all. cui bono Aug 2014 #96
She said many, which to me means less than half. HERVEPA Aug 2014 #155
All. littlemissmartypants Aug 2014 #59
Exactly!!! n/t RKP5637 Aug 2014 #100
good idea! Schema Thing Aug 2014 #143
Who would you say is the most likely to pay for sex in marriage? Men or women? KitSileya Aug 2014 #99
Here is an interesting article(s) IMO ... RKP5637 Aug 2014 #102
To be honest, I just wanted to know which gender you thought so badly of, KitSileya Aug 2014 #114
I think you are misunderstanding what I said or I wrote it poorly. I don't think RKP5637 Aug 2014 #117
That's not brownie mix you're stirring. Scootaloo Aug 2014 #4
lol, that's probably a common ripost Schema Thing Aug 2014 #145
What people have said is that it's about more than you BainsBane Aug 2014 #7
You're conflating crimes with the non-crimes. Kurska Aug 2014 #10
so why don't people try to get brothels in their neighborhoods ? are there any campaigning to do so JI7 Aug 2014 #19
that's relevant how? Schema Thing Aug 2014 #146
If, if, if, if Scootaloo Aug 2014 #29
I understand your concerns, and I put value in them. Kurska Aug 2014 #33
But it's not at all "just like drugs," because drugs are not human beings Scootaloo Aug 2014 #52
Do you really think criminalization makes things better? Kurska Aug 2014 #54
What's your view on legalized slavery, then? If someone "wants" to sell themselves into servitude? Scootaloo Aug 2014 #56
People sell themselves into "survitude" all the time no one can stop them, except Kurska Aug 2014 #63
That's the thing though... Scootaloo Aug 2014 #97
what exactly do you suspect the law reorg Aug 2014 #46
Evidence shows it leads to increased human trafficking BainsBane Aug 2014 #58
again, not true reorg Aug 2014 #79
False, a 2012 study shows the opposite BainsBane Aug 2014 #111
no it doesn't reorg Aug 2014 #136
Why don't you read what the article actually demonstrates? BainsBane Aug 2014 #139
I think we know very well why so many are so desperately ignoring evidence. redqueen Aug 2014 #147
the "article" is a summary and demonstrates nothing reorg Aug 2014 #148
how do you expect they could have firm numbers of an illegal trade? BainsBane Aug 2014 #149
fine, so you admit that the numbers are questionable reorg Aug 2014 #156
They don't care that their assertions are highly dubious and in fact stevenleser Aug 2014 #180
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #106
I screwed up the link above BainsBane Aug 2014 #109
I am saying they are endemic to the industry BainsBane Aug 2014 #31
The problem is you can't separate them mythology Aug 2014 #126
YESSSSSSSSSS , EXACTLY THISSSSS JI7 Aug 2014 #16
Put a brothel right next to my house Kurska Aug 2014 #21
go start a campaign for it JI7 Aug 2014 #22
Dang, thought we were gonna be co-owners. Kurska Aug 2014 #26
Legalized prostitution should not be allowed in residential neighborhoods. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #36
Well isn't that nice BainsBane Aug 2014 #38
not really reorg Aug 2014 #77
I've been in some of those areas when I worked in Germany for awhile, a German RKP5637 Aug 2014 #110
Would you agree to allow brothels, with the stipulation that they be privately held coporations. Kurska Aug 2014 #39
If there is no third-party profit. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #44
+1000000 woo me with science Aug 2014 #128
why should it not be allowed in residential neighborhoods ? JI7 Aug 2014 #43
Streetwalking. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #48
And unicorns for every worker who stays over a year. Scootaloo Aug 2014 #57
Have you got a better solution? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #64
As I told Kurska, DRUGS ARE NOT PEOPLE Scootaloo Aug 2014 #94
Let's be civilized. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #135
That's pretty much how it works Scootaloo Aug 2014 #140
Look at the contradiction in your terms? JackRiddler Aug 2014 #158
well said and that is exactly the problem Tumbulu Aug 2014 #60
Maybe/Maybe not. elleng Aug 2014 #9
And there is the big question. Kurska Aug 2014 #14
Unfortunately the Public Interest overrules what we might think of as our 'rights' elleng Aug 2014 #20
"criminalise the buying, but *not* the selling" redqueen Aug 2014 #11
if it were freelance women, sure, but if a pimp gets busted, fuck him. dionysus Aug 2014 #15
yup JI7 Aug 2014 #18
"Of course you have a right to control your body" Kurska Aug 2014 #17
"Gays have always been able to legally marry..." DRoseDARs Aug 2014 #61
It reminds me of laws that criminalize only the receptive partner in gay sex. Kurska Aug 2014 #71
Your body. Their choice. DRoseDARs Aug 2014 #91
"... but taking an narrow-scope, blinders-on, absolutist stance helps RKP5637 Aug 2014 #115
when you introduce commerce/exchange money the State automatically has a role to play. KittyWampus Aug 2014 #119
Regulation and criminaliztion are the 2 roles of which you speak. DRoseDARs Aug 2014 #137
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #104
Fundamental principle: Who has sovereignty of the body? on point Aug 2014 #23
+11111111111111111111111 Kurska Aug 2014 #24
You're leaving out the profit motive and coercion. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #37
Coercion is against individual sovereignty of the body. Profit irrelevant on point Aug 2014 #45
Third-party profit totally relevant. JackRiddler Aug 2014 #50
profit is entirely relevant because the State automatically becomes involved when money is exchanged KittyWampus Aug 2014 #122
++++++ BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2014 #82
I agree. Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #92
Well said Ruby the Liberal Aug 2014 #124
The exchange of money and introduction of commerce automatically gives the State KittyWampus Aug 2014 #121
It's not a matter of self determination, it's a matter of the market treestar Aug 2014 #133
I can think of many who are working from sunnystarr Aug 2014 #138
Agreed, but at least Walmart doesn't involve treestar Aug 2014 #160
All prostitutes aren't walking the streets in a low class neighborhood sunnystarr Aug 2014 #178
There ought to be a better way to make a living treestar Aug 2014 #190
I don't judge peoples decisions ... sunnystarr Aug 2014 #191
This is the part of capitalism the "right" doesn't get because emotion. flvegan Aug 2014 #27
So prostitution is "legal" as long as you don't get paid. SummerSnow Aug 2014 #32
Are you available, and what are your rates? n/t Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #42
For you baby? Kurska Aug 2014 #47
Fine, but I'll regulate you Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #49
Sounds good to me. Kurska Aug 2014 #51
You're exactly right. Iron Man Aug 2014 #53
I pay Palmela all the time. Lobo27 Aug 2014 #55
Yep. Should be legal. LostInAnomie Aug 2014 #62
+1 n/t Kurska Aug 2014 #67
It should also be an Olympic event.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #66
There was a time when madams were powerful people in some cities. nolabear Aug 2014 #68
At an interdiscilpinary research conference, I once attended a presentation Kurska Aug 2014 #70
of course you can. People mostly aren't TELLING you you can or can't use your body as you please. BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2014 #72
I agree wholeheartedly. Kurska Aug 2014 #74
well you better put a much larger emphasis on your concern for the Good of Society, BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2014 #80
You won't find a more firey labor activist than me. Kurska Aug 2014 #83
well, I'm no expert....it sounds like your motives are pure, BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2014 #86
um Skittles Aug 2014 #177
We all contain carbon 4b5f940728b232b034e4 Aug 2014 #87
can I smack you in the snout? BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2014 #88
So do it ismnotwasm Aug 2014 #76
Legalize it, get it out of the shadows. lovemydog Aug 2014 #81
"Use the tax revenue to go after trafficking & domestic violence." Kurska Aug 2014 #84
This whole topic jumped the shark long ago mindwalker_i Aug 2014 #89
I think you're making some questionable distinctions here. Unvanguard Aug 2014 #93
Outstanding. redqueen Aug 2014 #134
Paras 1-4 confuse regulation with criminalization. Para 5 is heteronormative stevenleser Aug 2014 #179
I'm not confusing regulation with criminalization. Unvanguard Aug 2014 #181
Yes, you are. stevenleser Aug 2014 #183
Thank you for (again) not engaging the point at all. Unvanguard Aug 2014 #184
It's not much of a point if your reasoning is faulty and misstates study results. stevenleser Aug 2014 #185
Um, newsflash... prostitution is illegal. cui bono Aug 2014 #95
Careful, assert the right to make your own decisions about your own body, and risk being called Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #98
You think this is funny? BainsBane Aug 2014 #105
No. You know what I DO think is funny, though? Warren DeMontague Aug 2014 #112
BS BainsBane Aug 2014 #118
You're my DU hero! RiffRandell Aug 2014 #141
Because naturally when you see someone use the term BainsBane Aug 2014 #153
... opiate69 Aug 2014 #161
Dayum Warren Kurska Aug 2014 #173
Here ya go opiate69 Aug 2014 #174
100% on point, as usual. ProudToBeBlueInRhody Aug 2014 #182
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2014 #116
I think "Your body, your choice" only applies to one thing. Ever. The Straight Story Aug 2014 #108
A man's paying child support is comparable to slavery BainsBane Aug 2014 #151
No, let me try to explain it simply: The Straight Story Aug 2014 #154
I'm really not sure you have a right, I am sure that you do have choice HereSince1628 Aug 2014 #103
but I just saw a big fat man on a TV show called christian viewpoint that B Calm Aug 2014 #107
You have the right to perfom a sex act. But when it becomes commerce, the state KittyWampus Aug 2014 #113
Cannot believe that this survived a DU jury Ruby the Liberal Aug 2014 #120
Do you have the results? Kurska Aug 2014 #168
No - I am just making an assumption that it was juried. Ruby the Liberal Aug 2014 #187
Massage hidden by jury decision. Major Hogwash Aug 2014 #186
Well played! Ruby the Liberal Aug 2014 #188
What right is that? rock Aug 2014 #123
Economic security for those at the bottom of the ladder is one good way to minimize ... Scuba Aug 2014 #125
OK Skittles Aug 2014 #176
I'm talking about the social safety net, not working as a prostitute. If the social safety net ... Scuba Aug 2014 #189
Do you have the right to sell your organs in exchange for money? DanTex Aug 2014 #130
You actually don't in most jurisdictions treestar Aug 2014 #131
...said no trafficked 13yr old child anywhere n/t leftstreet Aug 2014 #144
Gee, you think it might be the tracking and child slavery that is wrong there? Kurska Aug 2014 #169
I would have to agree with you on this. No doubt there are financial issues in many marriages Douglas Carpenter Aug 2014 #150
Really? abelenkpe Aug 2014 #152
Rights aren't defined by the laws. Kurska Aug 2014 #167
OK go for it. Have a big sexxxytime party. Let us know how that works out for you. n/t MadrasT Aug 2014 #157
Small Point, With red light zoning adult entertainment is usually confined to industrial areas. DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2014 #159
Law of averages says there is a good chance that you will be raped on the job. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #165
Because we force prostitutes into back alleys and deny them the oppertunity to work Kurska Aug 2014 #166
you mean *we* as a society? Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #170
Yes we as a society. Kurska Aug 2014 #171
Honestly - Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #172
I'm fine with that; just don't ask me to respect that choice Skittles Aug 2014 #175
I don't want to ban it. NCTraveler Aug 2014 #192
 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
1. I wonder how long it's going to take for someone to offer you money to go fuck yourself?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:04 AM
Aug 2014

/just saying.

//Jury, please be kind, this is called joking. If Kurska is offended I will delete it.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
2. Wait, they'll pay you to do that?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:04 AM
Aug 2014

So many wasted years...


As a note to Juries: It was a damn funny joke, I took no offense.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
25. Just was giving you a chance to back away
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:29 AM
Aug 2014

from the idea that marriages are made for money and not exclusively for love, at least in societies where arranged marriage is not the norm.

Would you like to take that opportunity?

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
30. I think that happens, for whatever reason, they feel trapped ... could be financial, illness, a
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:39 AM
Aug 2014

number of variables ... they get trapped into a marriage they would rather not have.

JustAnotherGen

(31,896 posts)
129. Not so much anymore
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:27 AM
Aug 2014

I still think many people in their 20's get married because it is "the next natural step" - but women who marry in our mid to late 30's and older - we tend to come to the table with our assets, cash, and exit plans. I didn't have to get married - I chose to. Most of my peers and I that have married in the past few years - my circle of friends. . . Marriage was a "would be nice" that you have to think long and hard about because in Le Divorce - you could lose everything you sacrificed your personal life to obtain. Chief among those things - financial freedom.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
34. It doesn't.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:45 AM
Aug 2014

Many marriages today are known on both sides to be economic transactional partnerships, more so outside the West. Historically, this has been true of most marriages, everywhere. Today this tends to be voluntary on both sides, but in some cases (more often in the past) with elements of coercion for the bride who is given away in a deal among families.

Wait, am I really needing to explain this?

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
40. OK, in the uncivilized parts of the world
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:51 AM
Aug 2014

Women are commodities, if they are valued at all. We can't (and won't) change the way that backwards societies treat women, so why fret about it here?

My solution to world problems: Develop something in pill form that can be easily smuggled througout the world that virtually guarantees the conception of male offspring. The most backwards and sexist of societies will breed themselves out of existence in a couple of generations, unless they change their thinking and learn to value women.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
162. It's not genocide
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 10:02 PM
Aug 2014

if they do it to themselves through continued sexism. I would imagine that most societies would see the handwriting on the wall, and find a way to evolve out of their misogyny. Of course, like biological evolution, those who do not evolve become extinct.

Gore1FL

(21,151 posts)
163. You advocated for their extinction.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 10:16 PM
Aug 2014

You said:

Develop something in pill form that can be easily smuggled througout the world that virtually guarantees the conception of male offspring. The most backwards and sexist of societies will breed themselves out of existence in a couple of generations, unless they change their thinking and learn to value women.


First of all, the very nature of the pharmaceutical you "prescribe" is what makes all of the offspring male, nothing that they are doing.

You, apparently happily get to decide what groups live and what groups die.

But this isn't genocide in your view. OK....

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
164. No, their ideologies do
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 10:24 PM
Aug 2014

They will seek out this drug, in blind pursuit of their misogyny. Why shouldn't actions have consequences? Maybe you prefer the Chinese form of gender selection?

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
96. I didn't take it that way at all.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:27 AM
Aug 2014

Truth is, it used to be common for marriages to be a business deal, and it does still exist today, especially when you see one rich partner with a much younger, much more attractive partner. Many times it is not a marriage of love, it is a marriage of convenience and an "arrangement" where both parties know what they can expect to get out of the situation.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
99. Who would you say is the most likely to pay for sex in marriage? Men or women?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 06:34 AM
Aug 2014

If we are to accept your statement, that is.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
102. Here is an interesting article(s) IMO ...
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:37 AM
Aug 2014

I am not saying this is right, wrong or whatever, just that these exist ...

"Marriage of Convenience" - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/marriage-30/201203/is-marriage-convenience-so-bad

"Trophy Husband" - http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Trophy+Husband

"Trophy Wife" - http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Trophy+Wife

I've worked with and been around individuals such as this. They both knew what they wanted in marriage, they were very pleasant relationships.


KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
114. To be honest, I just wanted to know which gender you thought so badly of,
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:15 AM
Aug 2014

that they were too pathetic to get someone to have sex with without paying. Seems to me that is a very misanthropic view to have.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
117. I think you are misunderstanding what I said or I wrote it poorly. I don't think
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:22 AM
Aug 2014

badly of either gender. What I am saying is, basically, marriage is really a contract ... and there are many reasons why people enter into contracts. And, quite a few marriages do not involve sex at all. The way our laws work, marriage often facilitates mutually agreeable contractual obligations.

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
7. What people have said is that it's about more than you
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:14 AM
Aug 2014

It's about the impact of the sex trade, human trafficking, the harassment and rape of children, and the fact that underage boys, girls and even children are commonly preyed upon as prostitutes or as bystandders living in areas where prostitution occurs.


Prostitution is a local issue. You can work to legalize it in your own community. You need not work to put it in poor neighborhoods. You can put it where the Johns live, next to their children's schools instead of ours. I have yet to see a single person agree to that. They make excuses about how poor neighborhoods are already bad, so what would it matter. The middle-class and upper-middle class sit back and theorize about their capitalist Utopias while showing not even minimal concern for lives devastated in the process.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
10. You're conflating crimes with the non-crimes.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:17 AM
Aug 2014

The crime is the sex trafficking, harassment and rape. The crime would not be me deciding to have sex with someone for cash.

And I'd be 100% okay with a brothel next to my house. If it is well regulated and the prostitutes are treated justly and fairly, I think it would be great and it might breath a little economic life into the area to be honesty. Johns need food too ya know.

JI7

(89,269 posts)
19. so why don't people try to get brothels in their neighborhoods ? are there any campaigning to do so
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:25 AM
Aug 2014

?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
29. If, if, if, if
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:37 AM
Aug 2014

Do you implicitly trust every business to strictly adhere to laws and regulations, Kurska? i imagine you probably don't, because you aren't a stupid person, and you know the drive for profit also carries a drive to subvert costs - represented by laws.

Do you then trust the regulatory bodies to exercise these laws strictly, fairly, and consistently? Again, I don't think you do. You know as well as anyone else that that same drive for profit encourages the enforcers to be lax in their practice, even if not directly corrupted by the hands of industry - as the saying goes, "What's good for GM is good for the United States,' though writ smaller - inspectors are encouraged to look another way, if a big employer with high revenue generation is having problems - money's coming in, so there's no problem, as far as the officials are concerned!

...except with prostitution, we're not talking about sides of beef getting splattered with botulism, or cars with faulty ignitions - we're talking about human beings who are being sold as rentable commodities. And if you think the law is going to do everything it can to protect them, I suggest you take a look at the laws that were in place during slavery to "prevent" cruelty and abuses to slaves - that went unheeded and unenforced because, well, they're just slaves, and the plantations are making good money! So too - they're just whores, and the brothel is making good money!

Now of course you can dwell in a fantasy land of perfect regulation enforcement, flawless treatment of the prostitutes, and of course, they're all perfectly happy volunteers to the work.

But it's no different than the libertarian fantasy of a self-regulating unencumbered market making everyone prosperous and happy.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
33. I understand your concerns, and I put value in them.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:44 AM
Aug 2014

No regulation would be perfect and if you could just do away with prostitution entirely, it would make all the problems go away. Questionable ethically in my opinion, but there is no denying it would be the most effective way to get rid of any problems that might arise from prostitution.

But the problem is that it isn't a choice between prostitution and no prostitution. It a choice between a completely unregulated black market and an imperfectly regulated legal system. I would rather have an imperfect system and fight to improve it when it needs to be improved than turn my head and just pretend the problem doesn't exist by shoving it away from the eyes of society. That is what we are doing now. Prostitution is RAMPANT in our society, despite it being illegal.

In my mind it is just like drugs, you can make a dog and pony show of trying to crush it and change nothing (we've poured billions into the war on drugs and our drug addiction rate hasn't changed in decades), or you can legalize it, bring it into the light of day and actually do something.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
52. But it's not at all "just like drugs," because drugs are not human beings
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:13 AM
Aug 2014

The problem isn't the sale or receipt of sex. The problem is the abuse of human beings that is always present with that particular industry. Any industry, in fact, that reduces humans to a commodity is inherently rife with abuse.

Such industries also tend to carry high profit - they would have to, with the inherent risks. And where there's high profit - legal high profit, no less - there is strong incentive for constant de-regulation and lax enforcement of existing regulations. As I said, think of any industry. Who is more protected in that industry, the workers or the shareholders? The people on the floor or the people in the loft? In every one, it is the workers getting screwed and the managers snug and secure from any loss or penalty - and in the case of prostitution the screwing is literal.

Can you imagine a prostitution version of Wal-Mart? do you think the industry lobby is going to have the best interests of its workers at heart? And of course when you make it legal, abuse gets to be met with "Well, you signed a contract! " - yes sir, nothing says "worker protection" like a lone prostitute against the brothels team of contract lawyers and a judge whose town is partially dependant on the taxes from that brothel, eeeyup.

You don't think this indyustry is going to be dominated by cottage industrialists, do you? That if prostitution is legal, it'll be run like etsy or some shit, freelancers out to turn a trick for spare change on a weekend? oh I'm sure some will be out there, but no, it'll become industrial. And freelancers will likely be ahem, squeezed out of the market.

These are considerations for any new industry. it's just that most new industries don't mirror the concept of a Rent-a-Center, except with human beings instead of home appliances.

This is of course, on top of all of the other problems like increased trafficking that have been repeatedly brought to your attention, and summarily ignored.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
54. Do you really think criminalization makes things better?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:16 AM
Aug 2014

That is my question. You keep bringing up concerns for legalization, but you're not convincing me that the current system is better. We already have extremely abusive pimps and shaddy illegal dealings dominating the market. Do I think a regulated market would be all benevolent? Of course not, but I think it would be much better than the current system.

The key is to create regulations and fight for them. It isn't just legalize it and hope that makes all the problems go away.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
56. What's your view on legalized slavery, then? If someone "wants" to sell themselves into servitude?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:26 AM
Aug 2014

Really, the argument you're making here - "just enforce the laws!" could be just as easily applied to the current paradigm, to much the same effect.

I have no illusion that declaring possession of another human being legal, is going to do a single fucking thing to improve anything for anyone, except for the profit margins of these new captains of industry.

Really, I'm not seeing anything from you that I don't see from the same boorish libertarians I've always heard it from - "no, it won't really be any better, but at least it'll be more profitable for someone!" is what the argument boils down to. I'm not sold.

I don't have a perfect solution. I just know that this one isn't one.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
63. People sell themselves into "survitude" all the time no one can stop them, except
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:49 AM
Aug 2014

no one can then tell them they can't leave servitude at any moment. Granted, they might not end up being paid, but that is life.

You know Scoot, I think there might even be a system like that right now. It is called employment.

The question as always scoot, is still between a black market you'll never destroy and a regulated market that you might just be able to control.

The status quo doesn't win by default, you need to make a persuasive argument as to why the current pimp centered industry is better than anything that could be reasonably created by regulation. With violence and STD rates as high as they are for sex workers, I have no idea how you'll do that. McBrothel might to be awesome, but I really don't think it would be any worse than a pimp. At least it would make it so that anyone who wants to leave can, pimps generally don't let their girls go.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
97. That's the thing though...
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:38 AM
Aug 2014

Legal prostitution would still be pimp-centered. And what's more if the law follows the well-trodden path of other industry regulation, the pimps will have more rights and protections than their workers. which becomes doubly dangerous when you consider that we're still looking at a very vulnerable sector of the workforce - pimp says "my way or the highway," well that's not actually a choice you can make - either you go their way or you go nowhere. It's the same coercive control disguised as choice in many other lower-end jobs.

Except at least your Wal-Mart manager isn't putting your ass on sale.

"We call it employment," indeed, and therein is the core of the problem - we accept that employees getting royally fucked over by their employers, coerced, manipulated, and abused, is "just part of the job.' There's this comfortable mythology of "free association" - don't like your job, well, just quit! ...And then what? Food and rent money rains down from the heavens until you land a job you like better? The power company is like "Oh, okay, we'll cut you slack, good luck on your dream job!" No, of course not, most lower-end jobs become mires that trap a person in a paycheck-to-paycheck existence where thy simply can't afford to hope for better, can't affort to step away, can't afford even the slightest interruption of that fiscal tightrope.

There is no such thing as "free association," not in reality - you're stuck. You can quit, but the penalty for doing so means that you actually can't, unless you're fortunate enough to have a fallback option, or someone to carry you along until the next job. And odds are, if you're prostituting, these aren't things you have.

Yes yes, go ahead, tell us about the college student paying off a few loans with freelance prostitution, I know you want to get it out of your system - but when you're done, go back and look at the industry as it actually exists, not as represented by a handful of publicized, best-case-scenario exceptions. Most hookers aren't out there because "i like sex and i like money ha hah ha, why not" they're there because it's really the only steady-ish pay available to them.

What I'm illustrating is that we are talking about taking existing industry problems and workplace abuses, paycheck-to-paycheck treadmills, and the coercion implied by this... and instead of applying it to the trade of labor, we are applying it to the trade of hyuman bodies themselves.

I find this a very problematic proposition. And to be frank I think a flawed illegality is actually better than putting the law behind the powerful and against the vulnerable, as would be the inevitable result of wholesale legalization and industrialization.because again, that's just how business and law interact - the people with the money, the power, and the connections get th protections under the law, and the more vulnerable persons in the arrangement get some scraps of platitude.

And just in case it didn't sink in, prostitutes are not comparable to drugs. One is a person. The other is an object. Treating prostitution as if it's just setting up a vending machine really ignores this distinction, as does blithely ignoring hte realities that would face these people as workers in a fringe industry.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
46. what exactly do you suspect the law
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:59 AM
Aug 2014

is not going to prevent, once prostitution becomes legal?

I'm not talking about "ifs", actually, the perfectly legal modern brothels in Germany exist already. Since prostitution - never illegal here, but still considered "indecent" - has become "normalized" and brothel owners are no longer considered pimps but businessmen or -women: yes, these prostitutes are "volunteers", not slaves.

Documentary (ARD, in German):



Quote "prostitution is a lucrative business"

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
58. Evidence shows it leads to increased human trafficking
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:31 AM
Aug 2014

Last edited Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:07 AM - Edit history (1)

which is slavery. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

Laws do not prevent anything. Laws provide a legal basis for enforcement and prosecution. The absence of them doesn't change the nature of the sex trade, but legalization increases demand, which increases predation on children, the slave trade, and slavery itself.

Edited to correct the wrong link. Apologies.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
79. again, not true
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:25 AM
Aug 2014

I've had this discussion here years ago. The number in Germany has NOT increased since prostitution was "normalised". However, the police have more time to actually follow up on suspicions, investigate and arrest the traffickers.

Documentary on forced prostitution in Germany (Nigerian traffickers; ARD, in German):

https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=ZPTsMJMR7b4

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
111. False, a 2012 study shows the opposite
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:06 AM
Aug 2014

This is an actual academic publication, a rigorous study of 121 countries. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

You can download it for free.

(Turns out I had the wrong link in the post you responded to. I meant to link to this paper).

reorg

(3,317 posts)
136. no it doesn't
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:28 PM
Aug 2014

Last edited Mon Aug 11, 2014, 03:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Yes, naturally, the "demand" was increasing in Germany because customers from neighboring states can now cross the border and quickly find a legal brothel that was opened just for them (examples in the documentary posted above). Germany made it legal to open a comfortable and posh location where nobody has to worry about anything whereas in France brothels and even "passive solicitation" are illegal. Naturally, French customers are now travelling the extra distance and patronize the German location, the "demand" in Germany increases whereas it decreases in France: I guess you consider this a "success " for the French?

I can see that if your choice as a trafficker is to send your victims either into a country where prostitution is legal or where it isn't, they'd obviously prefer the former. Trafficking is still illegal and mainly, if not exclusively, caused by the vast income differential between the countries concerned.

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005). However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present
article.


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
139. Why don't you read what the article actually demonstrates?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:50 PM
Aug 2014

Last edited Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:06 PM - Edit history (2)

Rather than what it doesn't? Cherry picking a paragraph out doesn't change the evidence. It just shows your determination to ignore it.

Academics don't typically make policy pronouncements. They provide evidence that policymakers can use to make informed decisions. Expecting to open an academic paper and see a statement that legalization is unequivocally bad or good shows no understanding of how research works.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
147. I think we know very well why so many are so desperately ignoring evidence.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:49 PM
Aug 2014

It's fucking depressing to see so much of that here.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
148. the "article" is a summary and demonstrates nothing
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:03 PM
Aug 2014

Like in previous discussions about whether trafficking has increased in Germany due to the reforms, the only "hard" data used by the anti-prostitution propagandists are the numbers of victims in ongoing investigations as reported by the police, within a relatively short time frame (a few years before and after). As has been pointed out previously, even if these data represent actual trends, they don't show that trafficking actually increased due to the reforms, they only show that in the course of investigations a somewhat greater number has been detected which could be due to a change in focus. More resources, more success.

This study adds a lot of "estimates" and statistical speculation in lieu of more specific investigation and facts. Which may look impressive to some people, but don't count me among them.

On page 25 of your summary:

The estimates show that the number of victims gradually declined between 1996/97, the first years of data collection, and 2001, when the minimum estimate was 9,870 and the maximum 19,740.37

Okay, so why did the number decline in these years? Did prostitution become more illegal between 1996 and 2001? And the "estimates" vary by 100 percent? And why do the statisticians fail mention the estimates for 1996? Perhaps because these numbers vary every year, in different directions?

However, this number increased upon fully legalizing prostitution in 2002, as well as in 2003, rising to 11,080-22,160 and 12,350-24,700, respectively. 38

Wow, a ten percent rise in one year? Clearly, the reforms were the reason.

Footnote 38
This increase is partly attributable to the change in the definition of human trafficking victims in 2003; German nationals are also included in the category from 2003 onwards. However, this change does not fully explain the increase because German nationals amount to only 10.3% of all victims in the given year (German Federal Police Office, 2005).

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
149. how do you expect they could have firm numbers of an illegal trade?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:22 PM
Aug 2014

Have you ever read about the transatlantic slave trade? There are no hard numbers, and that trade was legal, much of it documented. You expect hard numbers for human trafficking? What scenario in your mind makes that possible? You think immigration officers diligently track each and every slave as the enter a country, filling out paperwork? Or that slave traders provide invoices of how many human beings they smuggle inside a cargo vessel?

This is the abstract. That means a summary of the central findings of the research.

This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows.
According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The
scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market,
increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked
women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a
cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution
effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human
trafficking inflows.


10 percent more human beings sold into bondage. Why should that matter? It's not like they are men of means, human beings who actually count.

Let's be honest here. The point is a clear refusal to care about whether more people are sold into slavery. The more important issue is that men of money have access to purchasing sex whenever they want. Pretending this is about anything other than male entitlement is absurd. Capitalist exploitation is a virtue. Survival of the fittest. Caring out human rights is so passé. It's all about power and privilege. That's what must be fought for under all circumstances.

Point made. I now understand why there is so much exploitation and inequality around the world. Those who benefit from it will justify that exploitation at all costs. Railing about "corporatists" is a smokescreen for the fact they feel entitled to benefit from the rampant exploitation of others. They will pretend those people don't exist because really they just don't matter. That is the why we have rampant inequality. That is why capitalism is able to exploit, use, and spit out human beings. Capital finds its collaborators among the privileged who show willful disregard for the human rights of others.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
156. fine, so you admit that the numbers are questionable
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:00 PM
Aug 2014

even though you didn't read what I said.

The rise of 10 percent in the estimates of trafficking victims in the year immediately following a law reform - if taken at face value, although that would be dishonest, as I have shown - represents 10 percent more individuals falling victim to the promise of a much better life in Germany.

Only a small proportion of those trafficked may eventually achieve their goal whereas the police will have to work hard to find those who are being extorted and held illegally by the trafficking agents (in some cases close relatives, BTW).

The actual number of victims found in 2011 was 640, according to the German federal police agency (BKA). The BKA has confirmed in 2013 that there is no significant rise in the numbers of victims which would indicate a causal relation to the reform.

The actual number in 1995 was 1,196, in 1996 1,473.

As you can see, these numbers depend on other variables than a relatively minor change in the law.

Das jährlich erstellte Lagebild des Bundeskriminalamtes weise „keinen signifikanten Anstieg der Opferzahlen im Bereich des Menschenhandels zum Zweck der sexuellen Ausbeutung aus, der auf eine mit dem Inkrafttreten des Prostitutionsgesetzes kausal verknüpfte Ausweitung des Phänomens hinweisen würde“.

http://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/2013_03/01/253400


http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/13/081/1308193.asc
http://menschenhandelheute.net/2012/10/17/pressemitteilung-des-bka-bundeskriminalamt-veroffentlicht-aktuelle-zahlen-fur-deutschland/
http://menschenhandelheute.net/zahlen-daten-und-fakten/
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
180. They don't care that their assertions are highly dubious and in fact
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 01:07 AM
Aug 2014

Many of the same studies they attempt to cite regarding trafficking also shows that the conditions of sex workers are greatly improved by legalization. They often handle that by just ignoring that part of the study, citing only the trafficking portion and hoping you won't look it up to find out that those other portions of the study exist.

As you note, an increased inflow of trafficking to a particular country does not mean more people are being trafficked. It likely just means that the legalized country is a preferred destination.

They don't seem to care about the real world and demonstrated improvements in the lives of sex workers that legalization brings.

This odd law that some seem to favor about criminalizing only one end of the transaction has equal protection and all kinds of other problems written all over it. It's amazing that any democratic country's constitution permits such a thing. That kind of a law seems much more aimed at punishing johns rather than protecting sex workers. If being legal to sell improves the lives of sex workers, why this odd need to criminalize the other half of the transaction.

Response to BainsBane (Reply #58)

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
109. I screwed up the link above
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:03 AM
Aug 2014

Sorry, I realized I had the wrong link in the post above. I've corrected it and am reposting the paper here as well. This is a study of 121 countries with differing laws about prostitution. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
31. I am saying they are endemic to the industry
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:41 AM
Aug 2014

and have been shown to increase with legalization. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5361923

Neoliberal theories are not reality. Ignoring the actual evidence on legalization vs. decriminalization, etc... does nothing to address real issues.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
126. The problem is you can't separate them
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:14 AM
Aug 2014

The prostitution is directly tied to human trafficking across multiple countries that have legalized prostitution.

And we regulate all sorts of things that people can't do with their bodies. For example, one can't drive while drunk. Why? Because it goes hand in hand with negative outcomes like increased accidents and deaths. If we followed your lead of only dealing with the related issues, we couldn't arrest a drunk driver unless they hit somebody. After all, up to that point, they hadn't injured anybody else.

JI7

(89,269 posts)
16. YESSSSSSSSSS , EXACTLY THISSSSS
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:21 AM
Aug 2014

but i can't see those nice areas which limit things like fast food, liquor stores, or even something that doesn't look nice being open to this.

but this is where to start.

but now i know why they don't do that instead of demanding it be legal everywhere.

this way they can move into the poorer areas which don't have the money and other resources to fight against certain types of businesses which would want to open up there.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
21. Put a brothel right next to my house
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:26 AM
Aug 2014

I'm 100% down. Can we open a porn studio and a medical marijuana dispensary while we're at it?

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
36. Legalized prostitution should not be allowed in residential neighborhoods.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:48 AM
Aug 2014

It should be allowed in defined non-residential districts and not involve any for-profit entity in the mediating role (i.e., pimp, personal or corporate).

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
38. Well isn't that nice
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:51 AM
Aug 2014

Those are local zoning issues, and I can tell you how these things always work: they get zoned in poor. residential areas. Businesses have clout to influence zoning laws. Poor people do not.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
77. not really
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:16 AM
Aug 2014

The big red light district in Frankfurt is in the most central area next to the main train station and Kaiserstraße. There are residential buildings in neighboring streets, but these are mixed with other businesses (e.g. publishing houses, also office buildings housing embassies, consulates, airline offices and so forth) and not exactly low-cost anymore. Kaiserstraße:



if you walk back from there 100 m and turn to the left, you'll be here (lights on the balconies indicate brothel):



Another, very smaill red light district is near the main shopping area "Zeil".



Walk 50 m from there, turn to the right, then to the left and you'll be here (next to the brothels are some shops, fast food restaurants, residences in upper floors):



There is another red zone far from the inner city with no residential housing anywhere near it.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
110. I've been in some of those areas when I worked in Germany for awhile, a German
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:04 AM
Aug 2014

friend took me there to show me what it was like. Being from the states, I expected it to be rundown, seedy and just a place(s) I would rather not see/be. I was amazed at how posh it all was.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
39. Would you agree to allow brothels, with the stipulation that they be privately held coporations.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:51 AM
Aug 2014

Equally controlled by the prostitutes working there?

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
44. If there is no third-party profit.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:58 AM
Aug 2014

Strictly as a cooperative of the workers who choose this. Any mediating or accounting personnel to be paid salaries only. No advertising. No lobbying. There can't be a pecuniary incentive to grow the business, including among the workers (no pyramid or recruitment bonus arrangements, for example).

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
48. Streetwalking.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:01 AM
Aug 2014

I suppose if someone does it in their own apartment without soliciting on the street, and keeps it discreet... but otherwise it's obvious why. There's a right not to have this outside your door. Legalized drugs also should not mean that someone sets up shop on the sidewalk in front of your house.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
64. Have you got a better solution?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:49 AM
Aug 2014

Extend the police state, create new classes of criminals, add to the prisons, send this activity into the dark, put more pressure on the neighborhoods? How is this different from the war on drugs?

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
94. As I told Kurska, DRUGS ARE NOT PEOPLE
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:11 AM
Aug 2014

And I'm not sure if you've noticed, but prostitution and solicitation are already illegal in most places. So your scare garbage of "creating new classes of criminals' and "extending the police state" is pure bunk.

The best solution I've seen is to legalize prostitution but keep solicitation illegal. What this means is that a man or woman who offers sex for money isn't the criminal, but someone who takes them up on it would be. This alleviates police pressure on the most vulnerable parties in the equation - the prostitutes - while still keeping human beings from becoming a full-scale market commodity. It would allow the prostitutes the leeway to go to the police over abuse, without criminalizing themselves.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
135. Let's be civilized.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:12 AM
Aug 2014

The "scare garbage" about providing a profit motive to third-party exploiters, defining new classes of criminal, increasing police power, filling prisons and pushing activity into "the dark" (where it is more dangerous and criminals can exploit it better) is not bunk. It is what happened already long ago with criminalization. So I suppose there's no need to fear things that at this point can't be happening in the future, since they're already so well established. Criminalization as it has been practiced has not addressed, but has mainly added to, the problems inherent in prostitution.

Even if I thought the solution you propose was reasonable, how is the solution tenable? I can offer sex for money, but I'm not responsible legally if someone takes me up on it, only my buyer is criminal? After they pay me, can I turn them in myself and testify at their trials? You say "solicitation" would be illegal (i.e., asking for it) but in common usage the word refers not just to asking for but also to offering something, with good reason. The existence of the offer is one of the essential conditions for creating the market.

Perhaps your proposal outlaws advertising, or obvious streetwalking, but there are always forms of marketing. So please clarify: Are you saying a prostitute can legally set up somewhere, making an offer and trying to persuade people to accept it (again, the common definition of "solicitation&quot , but anyone who then takes the offer is breaking the law? Can someone do this as a legal business? (For the sake of argument let's define this as a worker-owned cooperative with only equal worker-owners among the personnel.) They can run their own legal brothel and invite clients in, but then the clients are lawbreakers? Sounds like you could set up a brothel at the front door, leading to a police precinct at the back, and build a prison next door.

So please clarify how this proposal is supposed to work in practice.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
140. That's pretty much how it works
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:57 PM
Aug 2014

Prostitution would still happen - illegality doesn't stop crime, nor is it really intended to do so - but without the prostitutes themselves bring criminalized. Which is currently, one of the main problems - a prostitute cannot report a rape or assault in her line of work, without herself being criminalized.

I think you and I have very different perspectives here. I'm worried about the well-being of the workers, while you seem to be centrally concerned about a john's ability to buy sex.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
158. Look at the contradiction in your terms?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 05:06 PM
Aug 2014

I mean, "workers" as opposed to "johns." We both are against people being forced to sell their sex to make a living, or being forced to do so in slave-like arrangements. Please stop with the attempt to morally discredit people for seeing different ways of doing this, or implying that the only ones who see this differently can only be johns concerned solely with their "right" to pay for sex.

You seem to basically be just saying that under your proposal, almost nothing will change. The fear and brutality will remain, the businesses will remain in place, but at least the women won't be prosecuted, and some of the customers will be hunted (since in practice the pimps will have cover). What does this provide other than a relative relief for some of the women and the public moral satisfaction of occasional raids punishing some johns? It seems to me an awfully limited way of addressing the problem, a capitulation. Better can be imagined, and has been practiced in places with regulated decriminalization (and better economic rights for women generally).

So again, you seem to be implying an answer but I'm not clear about your answer to these questions. No need to take a long time, just some clarity if this is the gist. Repeating:

I can offer sex for money, but I'm not responsible legally if someone takes me up on it, only my buyer is criminal? After they pay me, can I turn them in myself and testify at their trials?

Can a prostitute legally set up somewhere, making an offer and trying to persuade people to accept it (again, the common definition of "solicitation&quot , but anyone who then takes the offer is breaking the law? Can someone do this as a legal business? (For the sake of argument let's define this as a worker-owned cooperative with only equal worker-owners among the personnel.) They can run their own legal brothel and invite clients in, but then the clients are lawbreakers? (Sounds like you could set up a brothel at the front door, leading to a police precinct at the back, and build a prison next door.)

So please clarify how this proposal is supposed to work in practice.


In your scheme, what kind of now-free worker legally and freely sells illegal goods, for which the patsy is then arrested because you've judged him morally debased compared to the worker?

elleng

(131,107 posts)
9. Maybe/Maybe not.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:16 AM
Aug 2014

In some jurisdictions, the public has determined that doing so is NOT in the PUBLIC INTEREST, and thus it has been outlawed.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
14. And there is the big question.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:19 AM
Aug 2014

Does the "public interest" overrule your right to bodily autonomy? I'm gay and for a hell of a long time the public had decided it was in their interest to lock me up or kill me for exercising my god given sexuality.

So excuse me if I'm hesitant to put my right to sexual control up to the whims of "public interest".

elleng

(131,107 posts)
20. Unfortunately the Public Interest overrules what we might think of as our 'rights'
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:26 AM
Aug 2014

in many areas, like if/when we may buy cigarettes, alcoholic beverages, when we may drive motor vehicles, and many other things. Fortunately, courts are recently becoming rational about the rights of gay people and the Public Interest therein. Selling sexual favors is, and likely will remain, NOT in the Public Interest, in many jurisdictions.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
11. "criminalise the buying, but *not* the selling"
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:17 AM
Aug 2014

This system has been used by the most progressive countries for years

I had no idea it was so difficult for some to understand.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
17. "Of course you have a right to control your body"
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:23 AM
Aug 2014

"But we'll arrest anyone who you do anything we don't approve of with it."

I like my laws to be a little less Kafkaesque if you don't mind.

 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
61. "Gays have always been able to legally marry..."
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:42 AM
Aug 2014

"...someone of the opposite sex."

I had no idea it was so difficult for some to understand.



It's the same bullshit, non-starter, logical pothole: Consenting adults are free to do what they like, as long as they do it ONLY in the way I like...

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
71. It reminds me of laws that criminalize only the receptive partner in gay sex.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:06 AM
Aug 2014

Just makes me feel smothered by the joyous liberty they feel free to graciously impart upon me as if feeding treats to a dog.

 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
91. Your body. Their choice.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:10 AM
Aug 2014

These concepts don't exist in a vacuum. They exemplify the Unimpeachable Mindset of Your Betters.

Fun Fact: Whenever those delightful Porn threads crop up, to the usual suspects gays cease to exist because they undermine the arguments being made about the Evils of Porn: All porn is degrading, non-consensual, coercive men-raping-women porn, including the gay/lesbian porn which doesn't exist because gays/lesbians don't exist. Every. Damn. Thread. Which is sad, because there ARE serious problems within the porn industry, but taking an narrow-scope, blinders-on, absolutist stance helps no one and furthers no discussion. It's pathetic, really. Every. Damn. Thread.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
115. "... but taking an narrow-scope, blinders-on, absolutist stance helps
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:18 AM
Aug 2014

no one and furthers no discussion." It seems that way with almost every damn thing anymore. People can't discuss ... there are absolute mind sets, and then shortly thereafter it degrades into name calling or whatever. As you say, "It's pathetic, really. Every. Damn. Thread."

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
119. when you introduce commerce/exchange money the State automatically has a role to play.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:23 AM
Aug 2014

This is true of any activity under the sun.

 

DRoseDARs

(6,810 posts)
137. Regulation and criminaliztion are the 2 roles of which you speak.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:40 PM
Aug 2014

Laws regulate and criminalize aspects and conduct of behaviors in society. Government regulates what benefits, if any, a married couple can enjoy from the government. It also can (and historically, has) criminalize the very existence of being gay. Government can regulate the conduct of prostitution. It can also criminalize the very existence of prostitution. Saying "Oh, selling your body is fine, but criminalize the purchasing of sexual favors." is the same logical pothole as telling a gay man he's free to marry... a woman.

Response to redqueen (Reply #11)

on point

(2,506 posts)
23. Fundamental principle: Who has sovereignty of the body?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:28 AM
Aug 2014

The state or the individual? That is the fundamental question that confronts us. The progressive march of history is for rights to be held by the individual and not the state or church. This is no different and is the real right we are fighting for, even though the 'fronts' are the draft, euthanasia, gay rights, freedom of consenting adults, drug use, abortion rights, and yes prostitution.

If we focus on the principle - the right of self determination for one's own body, then the answers become clear.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
37. You're leaving out the profit motive and coercion.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:50 AM
Aug 2014

Legalization needs to be regulated strictly to prevent the private third-party profit and coercive arrangements generally found under the present order of criminalization.

on point

(2,506 posts)
45. Coercion is against individual sovereignty of the body. Profit irrelevant
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:59 AM
Aug 2014

If you want to argue there are external costs to society, then there are ways to address that, such as taxes, but the principle still stands. Identify and address the costs directly, but don't subvert the principle

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
50. Third-party profit totally relevant.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:03 AM
Aug 2014

It is a motive for coercion, and also to disguise coercion and practice it in more subtle or less public forms.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
122. profit is entirely relevant because the State automatically becomes involved when money is exchanged
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:25 AM
Aug 2014

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
82. ++++++
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:32 AM
Aug 2014

Always assuming the individual knows and has the ability those rights. (I talked about this at length in a few other posts in this thread)

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
92. I agree.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:25 AM
Aug 2014

I'm tired of the idea that our bodies belong to The State, which is a stand-in for "the Church" and "God", and that's where that idea originated.

The right of people to control their own bodies and bloodstreams, to make their own decisions about their bodies insofar as they aren't harming or endangering others (like smoking pot in your house vs. driving drunk) ... the right of the terminally ill to choose a pain free exit on their own terms. The right of consenting adults to get naked and have sex in front of a camera, etc. needs to be the baseline starting point, philosophically.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
133. It's not a matter of self determination, it's a matter of the market
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:42 AM
Aug 2014

LOL, not everyone can sell their body for that purpose - it's like being a model in a way. It would not be a choice made by the person, but by the market - like any other labor. Some will not be able to sell themselves that way and some not for a very high price. Supply and demand.

And anyone willing to sell themselves like that, no matter for how much money, it is questionable whether or not it is desperation. Economic desperation. Nobody should have to do that for money.

sunnystarr

(2,638 posts)
138. I can think of many who are working from
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:49 PM
Aug 2014

economic desperation .. at Walmart, fast food places, migrant farms, etc. Tough places for those who went to college or learned a trade to work and considered by many to be demeaning. To have to work for minimum wage can be very demeaning and only done out of desperation.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
160. Agreed, but at least Walmart doesn't involve
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 06:41 PM
Aug 2014

being alone with someone you don't know, who might not pay you (and you have no redress) plus you are physically violated in a way reserved only for your most intimate lovers, really when you think of it, a Walmart employee can at least have a real husband and children. A prostitute has none of that and no job benefits at all, etc.

sunnystarr

(2,638 posts)
178. All prostitutes aren't walking the streets in a low class neighborhood
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 12:33 AM
Aug 2014

There are a plethora of call girls who have a life, even husbands, boyfriends, children - many are students. Personally I would rather see prostitution legalized. In Germany prostitutes have to have weekly medical exams/testing. This controls the spread of venereal diseases. They pay taxes and are a part of the working class. They are able to have a life outside their work. They are protected by the police if anyone tries to get mistreat them.

Much better than our lowest prostitutes who are slaves to their pimps and are desperate to just survive.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
190. There ought to be a better way to make a living
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 12:34 PM
Aug 2014

can't imagine the husband who is happy with his wife supplementing the family income that way.

No one should have to do this for more money or for any money at all.

sunnystarr

(2,638 posts)
191. I don't judge peoples decisions ...
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 12:42 PM
Aug 2014

I'm just happy they can make their own decisions. Unlike all those captured women who are raped and sold into slavery.

All the more reason to make this world a better place whenever we have even the smallest opportunity to make a difference.

flvegan

(64,416 posts)
27. This is the part of capitalism the "right" doesn't get because emotion.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:33 AM
Aug 2014

Emotion, mixed with religion and stupidity begets morons.

But then, for the same exchange of money, they'll sell their very souls. We can compare transaction v transaction all day long. Someone who agrees to a service in exchange for money at least isn't fucking over countless other folks that they've sworn to represent.

LOL...Congress.

SummerSnow

(12,608 posts)
32. So prostitution is "legal" as long as you don't get paid.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 12:42 AM
Aug 2014

You can sleep around for free and never get arrested. But as soon as you get paid you're going to jail. I thought this was a capitalist society. Free sex is socialist? Lol

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
49. Fine, but I'll regulate you
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:02 AM
Aug 2014

Your BDFL (Benevolent Dictator For Life) says that in order to offer sex for sale, you must work out of a state-licensed brothel (and be able to produce your registration on demand) and that brothel must ensure that you are:
- Willing.
- Of legal age.
- Free of STDs.
- Free of illegal drugs.

I've known porn actresses, I had a close friend who was a "rub n' tug" (massage followed by a handjob) girl in Australia, my SO was a phone sex operator, I write erotica and, by sheer coincidence, I once lived about seven doors away from a brothel. I'm fine with sex workers, as long as they're willing and able to make that decision for themselves.

 

Iron Man

(183 posts)
53. You're exactly right.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:15 AM
Aug 2014

I see many arguments against prostitution that sounds like it's coming from the religious right.

LostInAnomie

(14,428 posts)
62. Yep. Should be legal.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:48 AM
Aug 2014

Adults should have the right to decide to do what they want with their bodies. If they choose to perform sexual acts for money, it isn't for me and anyone else to tell them they can't. To do so is infantilizing them.

Make it legal.
Regulate it.
Tax it.
Arrest anyone breaking the regulations.

nolabear

(41,991 posts)
68. There was a time when madams were powerful people in some cities.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:00 AM
Aug 2014

Not that prostitution was legal but it was certainly tolerated and high end brothels were places of some power if not standing. Certainly in New Orleans there were some astounding arrangements among the men of money and power, the nuns, the madams and the voodoo practitioners or "treateurs," women who practiced their particular brand of folk medicine. Those alliances were how just about everything got done.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
70. At an interdiscilpinary research conference, I once attended a presentation
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:04 AM
Aug 2014

on interracial prostitution in New Orleans in the 19th century. I found it interesting both how something like that was briefly allowed the near sanction of law in such a time and the level of autonomy madams and their prostitutes had.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
72. of course you can. People mostly aren't TELLING you you can or can't use your body as you please.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:07 AM
Aug 2014

The thing I'm seeing is that, yeah, it's fine if both parties are making informed, uncoerced choices.

These decisions should be based on self and worldly awareness.

Therefore, if you're seeking a willing person to offer you "product", you, as a consumer claiming to be not only savvy, but progressive, have an ethical responsibility to know what you're buying.

As a conscientious liberal, you truly should concern yourself with the quality and sourcing of the goods.

For example:

Are they Organic? i.e. Healthy, physically AND mentally?

Where were they sourced?
Is it a competent, adult woman who independently made a reasoned decision to sell sex? Is she competent to make such decisions? Or was there an outside "agent" luring, defrauding her?

Are there Labor Issues? Is she an underpaid worker for a larger entity which skims off too much off profits and doesn't pay or provide benefits to their employees?

These are just a few of the deeper concerns that you, as a progressive Democrat, are responsible to respect.

Your impact on society is acted out through your decisions. ...what you do, however independent it seems to you, does actually have larger repercussions in the lives around you.

Do you, or do you not want to have a positive impact? To create Good? Or to fuck it? That's a question we all have to ask ourselves, actually...........Always.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
74. I agree wholeheartedly.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:11 AM
Aug 2014

And that is why I think legalization is so important. It allows society to both respect the decision of those who do decide they want to sell sex and to reasonably regulate it.

I want to make a positive impact and I don't believe police raids on Johns or prostitutes do that in the end. I do believe regulations would.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
80. well you better put a much larger emphasis on your concern for the Good of Society,
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:27 AM
Aug 2014

And for the safety of workers--willing OR non-willing, because even in your best-case scenario, reality is showing that even still, the broader impacts are turning out negative.

You read like you're more concerned with the availability of "product", than you are with the proven destructive impacts that have been observed.

If your main concern is with preserving the integrity of the goods (i.e. the humanity of women and children) , it'd be worth it to sound more serious about THEM. More aware of the realities of the business.

Kind of similar to liking MalWart cuz they're cheap, and the cashier smiles at you, but conveniently ignoring the repercussions of spending money there.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
83. You won't find a more firey labor activist than me.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:33 AM
Aug 2014

Perhaps that doesn't show through in this OP, as I was more concerned about asserting my rights and the rights of others in the face of restriction.

But I think all workers deserve a safe working environment, a living wage and above all human dignity.

I want prostitution to be legalized, because I want prostitutes to be safe and unionized.

Frankly, I'd be 100% okay with laws that allow prostitutes to only either be freelance or for brothels to be required to be worker owned collectives.

My concern is for the people. As a gay man in a committed relationship, I have little use for the product.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
86. well, I'm no expert....it sounds like your motives are pure,
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:42 AM
Aug 2014

But you've got a lot of blind spots about the vastness of the collateral damage, even under "optimal" conditions.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
81. Legalize it, get it out of the shadows.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:29 AM
Aug 2014

Regulate it. Tax it. Use the tax revenue to go after trafficking & domestic violence. Let the individual decide. The only way to get a handle on abuses is to get it out of the shadows. Criminalize pimping. I agree with you others up-thread who say that as it stands now it's not good. The way to see if it can improve is to try different approaches in different places. Some areas would appreciate the revenue. I don't think a lot of people would go into the business. But some men & women might prefer it over a boring traditional job. At least for some amount of time that they can determine for themselves.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
84. "Use the tax revenue to go after trafficking & domestic violence."
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:34 AM
Aug 2014

Wish I could rec individual posts.

Unvanguard

(4,588 posts)
93. I think you're making some questionable distinctions here.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 03:29 AM
Aug 2014

Take a minimum wage law, which you explicitly say is fine. The federal minimum wage law bans me from making an agreement with someone else to sell my labor for less than $7.25 an hour. That's a substantive restriction on what I can do with my body.

Now, you can say, well, it's just a regulation, because the minimum wage law permits me to do exactly the same labor as long as I get paid at least $7.25 an hour. But maybe the employer won't agree to pay me $7.25 an hour. I want to do the work (maybe I want the extra income, maybe I want the experience) but the law won't let me; it's a deal that both of us think will benefit us, but we can't do it, the law won't let us.

Or think about maximum-hour laws. Maybe I'd love to work more hours a week--but my employer, who'd be happy to pay me my normal wage for that, doesn't want to pay overtime pay.

We tend to think these laws are justified, though, because they enforce workplace norms that, on the whole, make society better off. A minimum wage protects low-wage workers. Maximum-hour laws help keep work from totally taking over people's lives. Looking at them solely through this sort of individual-rights market logic--it's consensual, we both want to!--is a destabilizing norm that threatens these social gains.

On a certain view of prostitution, you can see how the same thing can be true there. Yes, on the abstract individual level, it makes sense to say, if people want to engage in a consensual sexual commercial arrangement, why not let them? But what happens socially, institutionally, if you adopt that rule? What happens to social norms about the treatment or sexualization of women? What happens to cases to the ability to control prostitution where it's not so consensual, where the limitations a ban puts on demand are done away with? Maybe these problems can be alleviated but you can't address them by just pointing to this individual rights framework.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
179. Paras 1-4 confuse regulation with criminalization. Para 5 is heteronormative
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 12:53 AM
Aug 2014

and ignores LGBT prostitution.

If selling your body is such a horror in general, why don't you seem to care about men who sell their bodies to other men?

The same studies that bainsbane posts that suggests that legalization increases inflows of trafficking to a particular country, not trafficking in general, just inflows to that country, suggests that sex worker conditions are greatly improved by legalization. Why wouldn't you want that?

Unvanguard

(4,588 posts)
181. I'm not confusing regulation with criminalization.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 01:36 AM
Aug 2014

I'm pointing out that, in this context, it's a distinction without a difference. Any regulation bans certain consensual transactions. And that can amount to a real, substantive constraint on what people do with their bodies.

It seems rather silly to me to claim that worrying about the effect of prostitution on attitudes towards women is "heteronormative." And it is even sillier to suggest that that one sentence of mine somehow makes it "seem" that I don't care about men involved in prostitution. Perhaps you mean to suggest that I should also be worried about the potential for prostitution to negatively impact social attitudes towards men; I think that's a different case, because heterosexuality remains the dominant framework for sexuality and for prostitution specifically (i.e., most men are straight and most prostitution is accordingly oriented toward straight men), and because the sexual objectification of men is much less deeply embedded in our culture than the sexual objectification of women, but it's a fair point to raise. (Speaking as a gay man, there is also a specific and important conversation that could be had about sexual entitlement and objectification within gay male communities, but I'm not sure this is the comment thread to have it in, or that prostitution is the right frame through which to approach it.)

It's quite likely that legalization improves sex worker conditions, especially among people who have some choice in the matter. It's also quite likely that it increases demand, and therefore the available profit for sex traffickers, and therefore the incentive for them to coerce and exploit people. Since there is no absolute constraint on supply, there is no reason to automatically assume that an increase in sex trafficking to one place decreases it in others, and some theoretical reason to think otherwise (it's not as if legalized prostitution in one country decreases demand in others). I think reasonable people can come out either way on this. But I think it is rather simplistic to think the individual rights framework of the OP resolves the question, without any attempt to engage the other social-impact issues of legalized prostitution.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
183. Yes, you are.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 02:00 AM
Aug 2014

Various aspects of labor are regulated. You used the minimum wage argument to argue for making/keeping prostitution illegal. It's not illegal to pay someone a low wage, but by regulation there is a lower limit. It's not illegal to dump garbage but it is regulated in terms of where you can dump it. The arguments you are making clearly conflate the issue of regulation with making something completely illegal.

And the fact that you find it silly that LGBT sex workers should be considered is noted.

I am glad that you recognize that legalization would improve the lives of sex workers, then again there is firm proof of that so denying it would really be something that is silly.

You again fall back on the trafficking argument and add the suggestion that legalization increases demand, both of which are not proven. An increase in inflows to a particular country is not tantamount to an increase in human trafficking.

Unvanguard

(4,588 posts)
184. Thank you for (again) not engaging the point at all.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 02:04 AM
Aug 2014

As for your second point, if you want to dishonestly mischaracterize my words, go right ahead.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
185. It's not much of a point if your reasoning is faulty and misstates study results.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 02:18 AM
Aug 2014

There is one iron clad fact we have regarding the legalization debate. That is that legalizing improves the lives of sex workers. That is shown in virtually every study of the subject.

We also have studies that show that making prostitution legal tends to produce a small increase in inflow of trafficking to the country that legalizes. Those that push for keeping prostitution illegal, like you, have attempted to suggest that this means that it increases trafficking or increases demand, but the studies don't show that. That is an unsupported leap from what those studies show. It just as likely (more likely imho) could mean that people who are being trafficked anyway have a small percentage chance of being redirected to a country that has legalized prostitution. There is no evidence that the trafficking itself increases, i.e. that people who would not have been trafficked were trafficked because a country legalized prostitution.

And whether you acknowledge it or not, its pretty ugly to on the one hand claim that sex work is such a bad thing and on the other completely dismiss as 'silly' the idea that LGBT prostitution should be considered. Combine that with the fact that legalization will improve the lives of sex workers, and it is pretty hard to determine the agenda of those seeking to keep it illegal. That agenda certainly has nothing to do with consideration of people in the industry.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
95. Um, newsflash... prostitution is illegal.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 04:23 AM
Aug 2014

(except for a few rare exceptions if they are still in existence.)

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
98. Careful, assert the right to make your own decisions about your own body, and risk being called
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 06:29 AM
Aug 2014

a "libertarian poop-head" and all kinds of awful, hateful things. Because nothing shows a low character and hate-filled soul than nasty words about how "people should be able to make up their own minds about stuff"

Are you sure you're not just covering up for your inner need to oppress people? You know, with this wacky talk about how they should be able to make their own decisions?

Sort of like how when people say maybe we shouldn't fill our prisons with pot smokers, they're really demanding the right to chop people up and eat them in the middle of times square.

freeeeedumb!!!

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
105. You think this is funny?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:48 AM
Aug 2014

Did you read this? http://www.democraticunderground.com/125548981

We have a first-hand account of an entire populations of underage boys and girls working as prostitutes, no longer alive due to disease, murder suicide, and even serial killers.

We have clear evidence that legalization increases human trafficking: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

You read a thoughtful OP on this subject that explored the various approaches without mocking or discounting the lives of great swaths of the population. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5362330

You then come in here and decide to mock those concerned with the reality of the sex trade, as opposed to those confident in their neoliberal faith in the imaginary gods of the free market.

This broader discussion on prostitution serves as a case study in demonstrating how capitalist exploitation and rampant inequality prevails. People steadfastly refuse to consider the lives of the poor, of victims of human trafficking, and huge numbers of underage boys and girls whose bodies are sold on a regular basis. None of that is incidental to prostitution. It is endemic. People pretend, against all evidence to the contrary, that waving a magic wand of legality will make that all disappear, when evidence like the paper sited above shows the opposite.

This discussion has taught me why the world is racked by such tremendous inequality. The "corporatists," a popular phrase on DU, are only part of the problem. They have the full complicity of parts of the middle- and upper-middle class who repeat the neoliberal mantra of "choice" as a way to justify the desperation that causes most to enter the sex trade--that is when they aren't forced into it as slaves. That the "choice" so often results in rampant exploitation, abuse, child rape, and death must be ignored. People who dare speak about them must be mocked. They must be discredited in order to banish all awareness of the actual human lives that the privileged find inconvenient.

I don't know what the solution to the problem is, but I know when people mock legitimate concerns about the reality of the human lives caught up in the sex trade, they make it impossible to contribute to a solution that does anything other than further exploitation.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
112. No. You know what I DO think is funny, though?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:11 AM
Aug 2014

The absolutely magnificent, astoundingly impressive ability you have to consistently, without fail, create entire arguments out of whole cloth that the person you're responding to has never said or made, and then proceed to argue against them, instead of that person's actual, ah, statements. "So what you mean is".. "so what you're saying is" "you're saying this", etc. etc.

"putting words in someone else's mouth" and "straw man arguments" don't even do justice to the pure artistry of your work.

Someone says they think consenting adults should be able to make their own decisions about their own bodies- "as a supporter of slavery and child abuse, how do you..." etc etc.

So there's totally no need for me, actual me, to be involved in the process, here, at all. Which is fine, no prob.

Just keep goin', and every other post start with "Warren Says;".. and roll with it.

Knock yourself out- because after all, you're the only one in the ring.


BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
118. BS
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:23 AM
Aug 2014

You read the threads and decided to come in here and mock people. That was your choice.

I didn't attribute arguments to you. I observed what you mocked and what you ignored. I then said what this discussion has taught me.

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
153. Because naturally when you see someone use the term
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:50 PM
Aug 2014

"wider discussion" that is synonymous with what you said. "Putting words in your mouth." I did not put a single word in your mouth. Your misreading of my post ironically gets to the heart of the issue. Why should this be about anything but you?

Response to BainsBane (Reply #105)

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
108. I think "Your body, your choice" only applies to one thing. Ever.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:58 AM
Aug 2014

Which is sad, really, when you think about it. The idea is a sound one and one which I would think would be part and parcel for progressives.

The problem comes in when people see every action you take as affecting everyone else, or having the chance to affect everyone else. It reminds me in some ways of the Borg - a collective of individuals but all interlinked to the point where their individuality is lost in favor of the collective and people are just absorbed. Which also reminds me of how some churches operate.

It gets silly after awhile. You had fast food for lunch, could affect your health, which means seeing the doctor and raising health care costs, which might cost me a few bucks more down the line, so let's remove fast food and your choice to have it. Shame people - from smokers to those who don't eat what we think they should eat. Once we completely control all choices we can make society better for all (we can stop people from sinning and upsetting baby Jeebus).

I see some brought up wages - so...if you have sex for someone just because you want to does that mean you are 'working' for free and we need to stop all sexual encounters unless we can prove they are for pro-creation? Should we make sure anyone having sex is paid a fair amount even if they just want to have sex? And what about volunteers who use their bodies to fill sand bags, work in volunteer fire departments, etc?

And while we are on the subject of forcing people to do things, if you force someone to pay child support they have to use their bodies to work for 18 years whether they want to or not, which is a lot longer than nine months, so that once personal choice on reproductive choices now can be shown to affect others - but I am guessing in that case people will stand by the whole 'your body/your choice' mantra because the choices they want to make should be protected, but not the choices other people want.

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
151. A man's paying child support is comparable to slavery
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:41 PM
Aug 2014

Is that your argument? Human trafficking--child support, all the same?

The key point you are missing is that "your body your choice" doesn't give you rights over others bodies, particularly over underage girls, boys, and children, or victims of human trafficking that are endemic in the sex trade. How is a man's "right" to rape a minor (which is what sex with underage prostitutes is) comparable to a woman's right to make medical decisions about her own body?

Your railing about child support demonstrates that what angers you is that you don't have a right to control the bodies of others, which is precisely what this issue is about. If it were simply adults engaging in consensual behavior, there would be no disagreement. The point is that is not the reality of much of the sex industry.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
154. No, let me try to explain it simply:
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:54 PM
Aug 2014

1. Someone is pregnant, does not want the child and the responsibility for it, she has a choice to get an abortion. The pregnancy and the baby after is born is not something she wants to have to deal with. Her body, her choice - forcing someone to be a parent and use their body to support a life and then to raise it is against the idea of choice.

2. Child support requires the use of someone's body (they have to work or go to jail) and they are given no choice but are told simply 'to avoid this problem, keep it in your pants, you are responsible for your actions, and you have to take care of a child, too bad, you made it" - so in cases like that you don't get to have a choice.

It is nice how you try to say I am equating two things exactly while ignoring the core of the argument - personal freedom to make choices.

I could care less about 'child support' it is simply used for an illustrative purpose.

Your railing about child support demonstrates that what angers you is that you don't have a right to control the bodies of others, which is precisely what this issue is about.

I don't want to control the bodies of others - which is why I am against turning people wanting sex into criminals. I don't want to ban abortions either, but it appears some people are, indeed, all about controlling the bodies of others by punishing them via laws/jail/fines/etc.

How is a man's "right" to rape a child comparable to a woman's right to make medical decisions about her own body?

And you tossed that in there why? Is saying that you believe two consenting adults should be allowed by you and others to have sex in the way they want mean that someone is suddenly for rape? Or is that just an emotional plea in the argument to try to derail the core ideals being espoused?

The entire argument is about choice - either you are for women (and men) being allowed to make adult choices - or you think you should step in and punish them for not making the choices with their bodies you personally believe are the right ones.

Which is it?

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
103. I'm really not sure you have a right, I am sure that you do have choice
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:38 AM
Aug 2014

with the exception of cognitive or emotional conditions that might make behavior(s) uncontrollably impulsive.

It seems to me that you are mixing Right to act with an absence of prior restraint. Until recently law enforcement stayed away from prior restraint. That wasn't really so much a right for individuals to act as it was a constraint on enforcement.

I'm not sure it endows a right to act, but rather the liberty of a few degrees of freedom which provide an unrestrained opportunity to to act.

I suppose that you might say, in that way, that you are at liberty to behave in any manner you wish, understanding of course that your action(s) may have you dealing with consequences imposed by others.

I have no problem with the concept of liberty. I think advocacy of yeoman Libertarianism with its exceptionalist individualism deserves ridicule if it doesn't acknowledge limits. Society and subgroups within it work because people recognize the concept of "being in it together" still provides much liberty.

The normative expectations of togetherness may chafe some at some times, but togetherness isn't all bad. Recognition that we are in it together rests beneath empathy and sympathy, and determination to be in it together is what creates the power to protect the weakest among us from the predators and bullies among us.

It seems that in the past 15-20 years a mostly selfish anti-social Libertarianism has gained acceptance in our society. If left unchecked it will destroy society as we know it, including values of the left such as equality and most definitely will destroy the progressive foundation of fraternity.





 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
107. but I just saw a big fat man on a TV show called christian viewpoint that
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 07:53 AM
Aug 2014

said we're a christian nation and prostitution a sin.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
113. You have the right to perfom a sex act. But when it becomes commerce, the state
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:12 AM
Aug 2014

automatically takes an interest in one way or other.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
186. Massage hidden by jury decision.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 04:00 AM
Aug 2014

You won't believe how long I've been waiting to say that!

Nice to see you on the bored once again, Ruby.

rock

(13,218 posts)
123. What right is that?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 08:25 AM
Aug 2014

Where can I look it up? Not that I disagree with you philosophically, but imagine if we didn't have the bill of rights specifically stating these rights, what chance would we have to convince the courts?

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
125. Economic security for those at the bottom of the ladder is one good way to minimize ...
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:08 AM
Aug 2014

... the negative aspects of prostitution.

Skittles

(153,193 posts)
176. OK
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 12:22 AM
Aug 2014

need some money? perform a sex act on me to get it <---------- "good way"

I'm fine with legal prostitution but don't try to convince me it's good or respectable in any way

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
189. I'm talking about the social safety net, not working as a prostitute. If the social safety net ...
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 07:25 AM
Aug 2014

... provided a little more we wouldn't see women forced into prostitution as a means of feeding themselves.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
130. Do you have the right to sell your organs in exchange for money?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:29 AM
Aug 2014

If the answer is "no", doesn't that mean someone else is telling you what to do with your body?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
131. You actually don't in most jurisdictions
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 09:39 AM
Aug 2014

And none of those laws have ever been held unconstitutional.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
169. Gee, you think it might be the tracking and child slavery that is wrong there?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:36 PM
Aug 2014

No, but clearly an adult working as a prostitute must be banned, because, reasons?

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
150. I would have to agree with you on this. No doubt there are financial issues in many marriages
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 02:29 PM
Aug 2014

and other long term relationships. No doubt there are many people who stay in marriages or other long term relationships because of money. No doubt some people use money to try to control others in long term relationships. Should that be cracked down upon too?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
167. Rights aren't defined by the laws.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:32 PM
Aug 2014

They are defined by the innate state of the human condition. They can be protected or infringed by the laws, but my rights are not gifted by laws created by any state.

Just like how a woman in the middle east has a right to self-determination, even if the law says she is no better than property.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,711 posts)
159. Small Point, With red light zoning adult entertainment is usually confined to industrial areas.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 05:33 PM
Aug 2014

Those that engage minors in sexual activity or compel men and women to engage in sex against their will should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. That's , well, axiomatic...

That being said, coercion is an amorphous and subjective concept and many people feel coerced into taking jobs they don't want and even jobs they feel are demeaning.

There are men and women, who decide after weighing all the evidence, that exchanging sex for money works for them. IMHO, we should leave them alone and focus our time and effort on those who engage in prostitution that is not of their choice...and help them find different lines of work...



Kurska

(5,739 posts)
166. Because we force prostitutes into back alleys and deny them the oppertunity to work
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:30 PM
Aug 2014

in safe and well regulated state licensed brothels.

Just how the moral warriors who want prostitutes to be punished like it.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
170. you mean *we* as a society?
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:39 PM
Aug 2014

and here I thought Congratulations for your Career Choice were in order.

So confusing.

Cameras on Cops ... ?

what next

Cameras on Prostitutes/Johns ... ?

The IRS will want their piece of the pie, I promise.



Kurska

(5,739 posts)
171. Yes we as a society.
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:41 PM
Aug 2014

Do you honestly think you can insult me by implying I'm a prostitute?

Some of the best people I've ever met have fucked for money, either on or off camera.

You can't shame me with a connection to them, I'd take that mantel and wear it proudly.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
172. Honestly -
Sun Aug 10, 2014, 11:44 PM
Aug 2014

Since when is Congratulations an Insult?

are you fucking kidding me or just trying to Shame Me?

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
192. I don't want to ban it.
Mon Aug 11, 2014, 01:36 PM
Aug 2014

I want to make it fully legal to run as a business. I want you working for me. I am a small business owner and have the cash flow to put the plans in operation. If you won't work for me, I will go to a "poor" neighborhood in my area to recruit. Make them pay for the initial disease screening before coming to work for me. Gotta keep overhead low you know. I plan on setting up shop, putting you to work for forty hours a week, at 15/hr. You want more per hour...bullshit. I pay the bills around here. I keep you safe. I give you a lunch break. I buy the condoms. I pay for your health tests(after initial hire of course). I see a lot of money in my future. Sex slaves.....no.....can't be if it's legal.

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