"Over himself or herself over his or her own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

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[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. In what universe?

That might be nice, but it certainly isn't reality anywhere I've been.

Pretty much every law in existence exists to limit your 'sovereignty' over actions you take, even actions such as suicide.

[MohRokTah]

6. Suicide is not illegal

What are you gonna do, hang the guy?

[shenmue]

2. Hate to say it

but this question is so vague, it sounds like baiting to me.

Sorry.

[CBGLuthier]

3. Invasion of the Libertarians Continues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. What specific criticisms do you have of John Stuart Mill and his seminal work, "On Liberty"?/nt

[DavidDvorkin]

13. Mill didn't actually say what's in the OP

It's a paraphrase, not a quote, and therefore should not be in quotation marks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. That's an exact quote.

I just made it gender neutral, ergo:



"The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. … In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign"

[DavidDvorkin]

17. No, it is not an exact quote

You changed it. Therefore, it is no longer an exact quote but a paraphrase and should not be in quotation marks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. How does it materially affect what Mill said or intended?

He was writing in the nineteenth century where there wasn't an emphasis on gender neutrality in writing. Surely you aren't suggesting he only reserved those rights to just men.

If the great man was alive today I am confident he would approve of my interpretation, especially in light of the post I was initially responding to.

To borrow colloquial parlance, Mill rocks!!!

[DavidDvorkin]

29. It doesn't change the gist, but it is nonetheless not a direct quote

But a paraphrase.

Mill would no doubt have written it differently if he were alive today. In fact, we know from his own writings that he was a strong advocate of rights for women. And he does indeed rock.

That's irrelevant. As soon as you change his wording, it is no longer a direct quote and should not be put in quotation marks. It's a paraphrase.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I agree...

And Mill and his wife were feminists...

I believe , as Mill, strenuously argued there should be few if any restrictions on self directed acts.

I made the statement gender neutral because I didn't want readers to infer that he was reserving individual autonomy for men only. That's just the writing style of the time.

[DavidDvorkin]

31. Instead, you should trust you readers to understand that

Or simply don't use quotation marks. In the OP, you didn't even mention Mills, so that wouldn't be a problem, anyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I didn't mention Mill. My bad.

I thought a group as erudite as this one would be familiar with the provenance of the quote.

[DavidDvorkin]

35. They would have, but you confused everyone by paraphrasing him!!!!!!!!

[PowerToThePeople]

4. I agree that this is the ideal.

Reality is not there yet.

[leftstreet]

7. ...said no trafficked 12yr old child anywhere n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Minors don't have agency. Adults do.

And having agency adults are legally and morally responsible for abusing those they have agency over.

[LostInAnomie]

18. +1 nt

[Squinch]

24. OK. So, said no trafficked 18 year old anywhere.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. If they were moved from place A to place B against their will they were robbed of their agency

They were also falsely imprisoned which is a felony.

[Squinch]

27. Well, yes. That is kind of the point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. What is the point?

Individuals are sovereign. Nations are sovereign. Their sovereignty should be respected as long as they respect the sovereignty of others.

[conservaphobe]

8. Too ambiguous to choose. nt

[pennylane100]

10. That statement is too open ended to promote justice and equality.

To claim sovereignty of mind, under certain definitions of what that word implies (an exercise of supreme authority) would excuse a person from acting within the framework of our nations laws.

If that person limited this authority over her/his mind to only thoughts and not actions, then the statement would be a reasonable one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Technically they have freedom of thought in Saudi Arabia or Korea

Even tyrants haven't come up with a mechanism to punish or regulate the thoughts in our head.

[LittleBlue]

12. Agreed, concerning sane adults.

The ones who voted no, that sort of mentality is used to deny women abortion.

If you can pick and choose what adults are allowed to do with their bodies, don't come crying when the next state outlaws abortion. That "I know best" crap is the biggest part of the problem, right next to religion trumping science.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I was chastised for pointing out the similarity between those who want to prohibit abortion...

I was chastised for pointing out the similarity of mindset between those who want to prohibit abortion and those who want to prohibit prostitution.They both reserve unto themselves the right to tell others what to do with their bodies. The only difference is they approve of one activity and disapprove of the other.

There is some problems and room for debate about Mill's sentiments but if you state the opposite of it you find that sentiment much more wanting.

[Unvanguard]

16. At that level of generality, sure.

The devil is in the details, though.

[GeorgeGist]

20. For hermits, sure.

But not for anyone wishing to be a member in good standing of civil society.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Wing nuts think "we" aren't members of good standing of civil society.

Who gets to decide?

[Oakenshield]

21. I'll pass.

Too often I've seen the veneration of the individual used as an excuse to act like a sociopath.

"We should be considerate of our fellow man and the world in which we live."

See, I can make short platitudes too. Difference is mine encourages looking outwards rather than inwards.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Sociopathic behavior often involves the usurpation of the sovereignty of others...

so that behavior is not part of the equation.

Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

[DireStrike]

26. Free will is an illusion.

A really good, probably impenetrable illusion, but one all the same.

[KitSileya]

33. "... a danger to themselves or others."

Today, we can admit to psychiatric hospitals people who we think are an immediate danger to themselves against their will. How do you square that with your paraphrase? Should it be illegal to do so to people who have tried to commit suicide?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. If one is endangering others they have usurped their sovereignty.

You can sit home, smoke weed all day, and watch porn as long as its your home, your porn, and your weed.

The suicide question is a tough one.