Seriously, what happened to the Iraq army we spent trillions on?

[grahamhgreen]

I know a bunch of them abandoned their war toys to ISIS, ordered to do so by Sunni generals.... Are some of them ISIS now?

Also, why can't the Kurds defend themselves, didn't we spend ten years and trillions training and equipping them too?

Also, how & why will it turn out different this time?

[CJCRANE]

1. It's strange that ISIS are better trained and better equipped

and more capable at logistics and propaganda.

[TwilightGardener]

8. It actually is strange. Usually fanatics and maniacs don't come with shitloads of discipline,

military training and a good business plan.

[amandabeech]

24. There are reports that high-ranking Iraqi Sunni military officers went over to IS.

Saddam's army was also comprised almost entirely of Sunnis, but Malaki's government is exclusively Shia, which is a huge part of the problem in Iraq. Maliki probably purged the army of the Sunni, making it easy for former officers to go over to the Sunni IS.

Also, IS/Isis/Isil has been battling Assad in Syria and are battle hardened.

They're also complete fanatics.

CNN reported just a few minutes ago that there are bombs going off in Baghdad. The CNN reporter on site didn't know what was going on. Perhaps there will be some information between the Robin Williams segments.

[AngryAmish]

38. And the battle harded foreign fighters

Like the Chechen nutters.

[amandabeech]

40. The Chechens are in northern Iraq?

I thought that they were in Ukraine.

[AngryAmish]

41. Syria and Iraq is hot this year for that set.

Chechens love to fight, are religious nutters and have been doing things like this for hundreds of years.

[amandabeech]

44. Well, they've surely given the Russians fits over the years.

And of course, the Boston Bombers were of Chechen ethnicity.

I wonder where they will go next?

[AngryAmish]

46. Wherever there is a fight.

[amandabeech]

47. How about Libya? n/t

[louis-t]

52. Bush actually purged the Iraqi army of Sunnis.

And the police force.

[amandabeech]

59. Then CNN is wrong.

Or they are talking about those same purged Sunnis.

I seem to recall that we pulled in Sunnis during the struggles in Anbar Province, as well, when we realized that we needed local help.

[LordGlenconner]

27. I'm not sure how much training and discipline they have

They apparently like to ride around in their Toyota Tundras in convoys in broad daylight like preening show ponies.

Tactically this is pretty dumb in a place where there are many flat wide open spaces and where there is known US drone activity, and now, full air strikes.

[Chan790]

48. I'm not surprised by it.

Let's address each of those points separately.

1.) Better-trained. ISIS has largely absorbed those members of the Baathist party and Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein who had and have been shut-out by the current government from employment or a role in the government. At the outset of the First Gulf War, these people comprised one of the best-trained and equipped militaries in the world...they didn't simply disappear because America kicked their asses. In some cases, twice. Now they're in the ISIS camp. They're training the fanatics, it's not really a surprise that some of the best military people in the region are training scrubs and conscripts into decent soldiers.

2.) Better-equipped. Well, between their funders in Qatar and Saudi Arabia and what they may have stolen from banks, they're the wealthiest terror organization in history. They can afford to buy the ordinance and equipment they need to fight a faltering Iraqi Army, fellow militias, Peshmerga and a largely-hobbled Syrian military. Realize too that they're avoiding open conflict with Turkey, Israel and Iran...the three best equipped and trained military forces in the region. Note too the absence of American boots on the ground. It's easy to look well-equipped and capable when you're avoiding the bullies on the block with the big toys.

3.) More capable at logistics. Again, Baathists and remnants of Saddam's forces. Those people aren't strategic lightweights or inept soldiers, even if the US Army routed them. There are substantial numbers of professional soldiers in their ranks...often fighting non-professional soldiers.

4.) Propaganda. They, like all Al Qaeda offshoots, have always been very good at this. It's somewhat a bit of American bravado to question that they're capable of something they've been capable at all-along.

[CJCRANE]

50. I agree on most points but their propaganda is on a whole new level.

It's almost like Facebook and Twitter where invented for this kind of thing.

[Capt. Obvious]

63. Baathists in ISIS?

That just sounds contradictory. Unless there plan is to use ISIS to take back Iraq and then slaughter ISIS.

[Chan790]

69. Strange bedfellows.

They're both Sunni...and that may be exactly their plan. Establish that Iraq will be Sunni-dominated before having it out amongst themselves.

[Turbineguy]

64. So the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal

created this monster.

[Capt. Obvious]

68. And I doubt they'll stay off Iran for long

If they're going after Kurds now they'll end up in Iran eventually.

And holy crap, reading Wiki - their opponents include Al Queda. I remember hearing about a split but is Al Queda fighting ISIS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISIS_(terrorist_organization)

[Fred Sanders]

2. This time the media will attack the President at every turn for not launching more death and

destruction, only Bush understood the American economy runs on war. Obama does not get it, the media will do its patriotic deputy to force America to war.

Uncle Sam runs on war!

Am I now an anti-patriot?

The media will be the judge of that.

[CJCRANE]

6. FWIW...

I think Bush was a restraining influence on Cheney in his second term after he figured out that Cheney was using him.

IIRC he signed the SOFA for the troop draw down.

It's also noticeable that he's tried to disappear into obscurity whereas Cheney and the other PNACers are very vocal.

[merrily]

29. Bush did agree to the w/drawal date, but not until almost the

end of his term.

Bush made a big deal about Carter's criticizing him for, I believe, the Iraq War. He said that former Presidents should not criticize incumbent Presidents. Bush can afford to be silent about Obama, knowing Cheney will never shut up.

[snooper2]

3. I'm starting to be of an opinion we shouldn't give a shit.....

Let the extreme fundies fight the moderate fundies and see who wins--

Maybe we can make a new rule that if those assholes continue to destroy ancient artifacts then NATO drops a bunch of bombs. Let them go back to fighting, they do it again bomb them again. That is probably the only thing that really matters anymore-

[Blue_Adept]

5. I hate to feel like I'm leaning that way as well.

What I'd like to hear is what the fallout from that position would be though.

[grahamhgreen]

22. I think the end result will be Iran moves in and takes out the extremists. And winds up with souther

Iraq as a proxy state.

[flamingdem]

53. Hmm, this wasn't mentioned by the expert

on msnbc, he basically thinks that without a super strong leader or bloodthirsty leader there will be no resolution in Iraq. There is always Iran as a factor though.

[joeybee12]

4. We spent trillions, but not on the Army...

The vast majority went to Dickless Cheney and Rummy's and the Bush mafia's pals.

[grahamhgreen]

13. So, in the end, we spent trillions to destabilize the Middle East, create misery for millions of

people, and provide profits for the Cheney cabal....

Perhaps we should GTFO?

[joeybee12]

23. Pretty mcuh sums it up...nt

[phantom power]

28. For the plutocracy, this is a feature, not a bug.

[merrily]

30. +1

[Chan790]

51. Taking no position on GTFO.

I would like to point out that there was a time as recently as last century when we used to imprison and even execute people for the kind of shit Cheney, KBR, Xe, and Halliburton openly did in Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of theft, graft, war profiteering, and treason.

Not advocating that we start executing people but perhaps it's time those elements of the MIC learn to fear the US Government again.

[grahamhgreen]

60. Amen

[raouldukelives]

67. That is it in a nutshell. nt

[elehhhhna]

61. poli's & thei rich overlords used to make graft on construction etc. in their whome states/towns

until they figured out that they could blow some shit up overseas and charge us a shitton of money to "rebuild", while we can't even see what they've done. SOOOOOOO much easier to steal way more money and nobody can check up on it, really.

Same deal when training and outfitting an army

[L0oniX]

7. Their country is not the only fucked up country. What if that money had been spent on the USA?

[merrily]

32. Apparently, our Treasury is a bottomless pit, but only for our military endeavors.

Next week, they'll all tell us again that the Social Security "trust fund" is out of money and don't elders realize they are stealing the future from their very own grandbabies?

[malaise]

9. Better question

Who got what part of the trillions that were supposedly spent on the Iraq army?

[grahamhgreen]

14. Apparently, ISIS got a chunk.

[malaise]

55. Well without them

how would the profiteers make money - perpetual war is the name of the game.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I don't know. I do know that arming and training the "good" Syrian rebels

probably would have turned out the same way--a pile of disappointing shit and a huge waste of $$$.

[amandabeech]

26. Or what was then called ISIS or immoderate Sunnis

would have attacked the "good" Syrian Sunni rebels and taken their equipment.

I seem to recall some of that going on a year or two ago.

Former Sec. of State Clinton's assertions notwithstanding.

[merrily]

33. AFAIK we did arm Syrians. Whether they were "good" rebels or bad rebels only

the Wizard of Oz knows.

[Eleanors38]

11. Ref.: Vietnam. nm

[Johonny]

12. +1

Delusional GOPer still think we can win Vietnam too, though. When they stand up, we'll stand down.

[merrily]

35. Or send wounded Vietnam vets Kerry and McCain there for a trade agreement,

whichever comes first. And then send them back to celebrate the 20th anniversary.

http://www.diplomaticourier.com/news/diplomatic-life/2142-vietnam-and-the-united-states-celebrate-20-years-of-trade-diplomacy?tmpl=component&print=1

I wish they had skipped the war.

[grahamhgreen]

17. I find the parallel between the brutal, psychotic, Khmer Rouge that emerged after we bombed

Vietnam 'back to the stone age', and the 14 century ISIS movement to be quite interesting.

[bemildred]

21. +1. Or Gaza. nt

[Eleanors38]

43. Ironically, the NV Army smashed the Khmer Rouge

when it invaded Cambodia after its victory in Vietnam.

[former9thward]

56. They took them out of power in 1979.

They did not "smash" them. They still controlled most of the rural country when I was there in 1992. I had to take puddle jumpers to parts of country because the KR controlled the roadways.

[Eleanors38]

58. I'll concede that. Thanks.

[bemildred]

15. They dropped their weapons and ran, that's what happened.

Not nearly so unusual as you might think.

[RobertEarl]

16. Or the soldiers joined the IS

IS is using the weapons we supplied and trained them with. That explains how they were able to move so far so fast: American trained and supplied.

[grahamhgreen]

18. That's what I'm really wondering... What percentage of ISIS are disaffected Iraqi military?

[RobertEarl]

20. I'm sure they all just loved the US...?

Everyone of them probably had two or three relatives who were killed in the invasion and occupation. Lawd knows if I was on the beaten side, i'd settle in with the winners, especially knowing one day they'd leave since they were all furners.

[bemildred]

19. Quite a few of those too, no doubt. nt

[Initech]

25. We spent it on something? I thought that the military industrial complex stole it all.

[LittleBlue]

31. In the Middle East, zealous holy warriors prevail

over secular puppet government armies.

Which is why so many governments over there fear fanatics more than outside powers. They know their well equipped toy armies have zero morale and will flee in the face of committed opponents.

[Zorra]

34. I'm pretty sure I saw many of them around El Cajon last year.

They looked well, and happy.

[CanonRay]

36. See Haliburton, Blackwater, Worldwide Protective Services, etc

etc, etc, etc,

[AngryAmish]

37. Americans don't understand people from this part of the world

Folks who consider themselves smart think they know the region if they talk about shia v sunni. This is a completely facile understanding of these people.

This part of the world is completely tribal. The vast majority of folks marries their first or second cousin. This creates a strong in group before mi out group preference, down to the genetic level. They are insular and they are loyal to a nation of Iraq as they are to the Book of the Month Club, and they are not dying for either.

The old Iraqi army worked because the various units were not tribally diverse. And the old Iraqi army kinda sucked in battle.

The new Iraqi army was multicultural, multi tribal. They felt no loyalty to it but the checks were nice. So when the lead was in the air they Sir Robined at mach speed.

Western norms apply to the West. Iraq ain't the West. Stop pretending that it is.

[grahamhgreen]

62. Unfortunately, many us here new this BEFORE we lost our blood and treasure in Iraq... As they say

over there:

"Me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me, my brother, and my cousin against the world."

[Codeine]

39. Same thing that happens to everyone there.

Religion.

[sendero]

42. We set up a sectarian leader.

... (Malaki) and the soldiers in the wrong sect are not interested in defending him.

All told, it would be harder to invent a bigger clusterfuck than what we've done in Iraq. But the defense contractors made out all right.

[Rex]

45. We gave it all to Blackwater, Halliburton, RAND, Bechtel, Trireme and other corporations

so they could Spread Democracy(tm) to Iraq and be greeted with rose pedals as liberators!

No, seriously...we lost it all to the PNAC crime lords...probably the biggest crime ever committed by warmongering collaborators.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. the kurds are outnumbered and less well armed

[grahamhgreen]

65. How the f#ck could they be less well armed, if we'd actually been training and equipping them???

With is much money and hours we've pretended to spend 'training' the peshmurga, they should be sh*t hot fighters by now, imho.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. we trained but did not give them heavy artillery as they are not officially part of the iraqi army

whereas ISIS does have the heavy artillery (they took it from the iraqi army)

[Paladin]

54. The same thing that happened with the S. Vietnamese army, that we spent billions on.

We never fucking learn......

[DCBob]

57. Decades of dictator rule affects a nation's psychology.

I think they just aren't ready .

[grahamhgreen]

66. Actually, it's been a millenia of tribal war....