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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRise of the 'Unholy Alliance' of Libertarians and Leftists
Last edited Sun Aug 17, 2014, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Rise of the 'Unholy Alliance' of Libertarians and Leftists
(starting quote at the fifth paragraph of the article)
Eight months after Naders "Freedom Watch" pronouncement, Ron Paul supporters along with socialists, anti-market anarchists, and other lefties of various stripes were the first to set up camp in Zuccotti Park and launch the Occupy Wall Street movement. There were arguments over whether advocates of free markets belonged in the movement, whether the economic crisis was caused by deregulation or by government encouragement of high-risk financial speculation, and whether the solution to the crisis was greater or less government control of business, but the libertarians stayed. As Occupy spread to other cities, libertarians were almost always a visiblethough minoritypresence at the encampments. "One would more reliably come across vocal Ron Paul supporters at Occupy events than vocal Obama supporters," reported Michael Tracey in the American Conservative. "It was not lost on the Zuccotti Park crowd, for instance, that Ron Paul personally expressed a measure of support for the movement earlier than most any other national U.S. politicianaside from Sen. Bernie Sanders or Rep. Dennis Kucinich."
(snip)
In the summer of 2013 the "unholy alliance" wreaked havoc on the national-security and foreign-policy establishments. Edward Snowden, a Ron Paul supporter, received passionate support from both libertarians and a broad array of leftists for revealing, at the risk of imprisonment, the NSAs dragnet surveillance of American citizens. Snowdens disclosures were publicized by the journalist Glenn Greenwald, who is a regular speaker at the International Socialist Organizations annual Socialism Conference, a recipient of the Nation Institutes I.F. Stone Award, and according to Rachel Maddow "the American lefts most fearless political commentator." But Greenwald is also, like Scahill, an eager collaborator with libertarians. He authored a study for the Cato Institute on Portugals decriminalization of drugs and frequently praised Ron Paul for being "far and away the most anti-war, anti-Surveillance-State, anti-crony-capitalism, and anti-drug-war presidential candidate in either party."
(snip)
One might think all this would be cause for celebration among those who share Nader's objectives, but many find it more a cause for grave concern. Since last summer, liberal media outlets have streamed out warnings to their readers to "Beware of Libertarians Bearing Gifts," as the Center for American Progress put it. Any alliance with libertarians, even for a cause as worthy as reining in the NSA, "could kill the New Deal." Salon has frequently trafficked in hysteria over the libertarian "threat" to progressivism. "Dont Ally With Libertarians," admonished one of many headlines about the "fatally compromised" coalition that produced "The Day We Fight Back." At The New Republic, Princeton history professor Sean Wilentz explained to the "liberal establishment" that had fallen in with Snowden, Greenwald, and Wikileaks founder Julian Assange that these purveyors of "paranoid libertarianism" were outside the bounds of respectable politics. They occupy "a peculiar corner of the political forest, where the far left meets the far right, often but not always under the rubric of libertarianism." Where unwitting liberals have "portrayed the leakers as truth-telling comrades intent on protecting the state and the Constitution from authoritarian malefactors, thats hardly their goal," Wilentz warned. "In fact, the leakers despise the modern liberal state, and they want to wound it."
Some left-wing observers have offered more constructive evaluations of the alliance. Ralph Nader continues to lead the way, with a new book on the "Emerging Left-Right Alliance to Dismantle the Corporate State" and a lengthy interview promoting it on Reason TV. Perhaps the most notable among the left-wing sympathizers to Naders cause is Peter Frase, an editor at the socialist Jacobin, who questioned "this obsession with people like Greenwald and Snowden as vectors for noxious libertarianism rather than people who are doing courageous and useful work even if their politics arent socialist." Frase identified "an instinct among some on the Left to suppose that defending the possibility of government requires rejecting any alliance with libertarians who might criticize particularly noxious aspects of the existing state." For those on the left who share Naders optimism about libertarians, Frases conclusion should serve as a manifesto:
One should not have any illusions that critics of the national security state all share socialist politics. But we should judge these critics by what they say and do and what their political impact is. An endless inquisition into hidden beliefs and motives, and the attempt to unmask a devious libertarian hidden agenda, makes for a satisfying purity politics for those who want to justify their own inaction. But it does nothing to contest the predatory fusion of state and capital that confronts us today, which must be confronted in the government, the workplace, and many other places besides.
Hear, hear. So let us say to leftists and libertarians: Unite! You have nothing to lose but your ideological chains.
Source: http://reason.com/archives/2014/08/16/rise-of-the-unholy-alliance
Ron Paul, Edward Snowden, & Ralph Nader together?!? This should be fun at DU...
The author, Thaddeus Russell, also covers the Snowden leaks, the aversion of US military action in Syria, Greenwald's reporting on such issues, etc. The whole article is worth a read, though I feel like I posted the four best paragraphs above.
I think that Russell enjoys being a gadfly to both establishment Republicans and Democrats. In so doing, he certainly glosses-over the very real threats to New Deal Programs (especially Social Security and SNAP) and other important government regulations (environmental laws, etc.) posed by Koch-funded wolves in libertarian clothing. Nonetheless, until mainstream Democrats return to the democratic progressivism that made the Party great in the past, there is a very real vacuum that libertarians can and will fill. I would prefer that Democrats stand-up for core principles of freedom and justice, but will still cheer the principles whether the actions are led by people wearing the "L" jersey or the "D" (or "S," etc.).
-app
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)They are not liberal.
They are not progressive.
There are two words to describe them.
Lying Libertarians.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)So your post is ridiculously vague.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)You used the word corporation. Every small family business is a coprporation.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)If that's what you "thought", it certainly wasn't what you SAID.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It was so obvious it took special effort to say otherwise.
And you were also correct.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)appal_jack
(3,813 posts)And the Speed-(non)-Reading Award goes to MohRokTah! One whole minute to jump to unfounded conclusions! Has any knee jerked this fast in history?!? Stay tuned, race fans...
Democrats who draft secret corporatist trade agreements (i.e. Clinton & Obama re TPP, TPIP, TAFTA, etc.) are not liberal, and in fact are a greater threat to the New Deal than any libertarian.
Democrats who approve of torture, panopticon-levels of warrantless surveillance, rendition, and assassinations are not progressive. They are more of a threat to the Constitution than any libertarian.
-app
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Thank you.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Or is working across the party line just TOO MUCH TO STOMACH?
What bull shit.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)appal_jack
(3,813 posts)Had you read the article, you would have seen the author's very concrete examples of distinctly liberal outcomes brought about by a left-libertarian coalition: stopping US military action in Syria, legalizing herb in CO and WA, etc.
So what was that about NEVER again?
Kick for the morning crowd.
-app
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)The biggest problem in my life is not being able to find a job and Democrats (when they act like Democrats) are far better at creating them.
So I will never ally with libertarians, no matter how many drugs they promise to legalize.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Social issues already without Libertarian help. It's the Libertarian economic agenda that we should all fear.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)I agree that economic issues are of great importance right now, and this is one of the many reasons why I remain a registered Democrat who votes straight-Party far more often than not. I believe strongly in Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, SNAP, and other progressive programs, and my own voting record reflects this belief. So cheers to you, conservaphobe:
But I still WILL make some alliances with libertarians (note small 'L'). woomewithscience has done a good job in this thread of describing how we as a nation are literally teetering on the brink of Fascism at present, and I agree with this assessment. Frankly, fighting encroaching fascism is even more important to me than preserving any one particular social program (well, if they try to fuck with SS, all bets are off...), so an alliance on behalf of Harm Reduction, or the Fourth Amendment, or for that matter other substantive Constitutional Rights, is in fact very important.
-app
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)True libertarians are free market purists, and that means no using the government to shut out competitors and rig the market to maintain dominance. Monopolies and oligopolies are anti-free market. Remember the ideal free market is a market full of small businesses in every industry that compete with each other and if one doesn't serve the market well, the others would or at least new competitors would rise up to fill the needs better.
Of course, libertarians hate the welfare state, hate government regulation, and like to be coldhearted, so in effect they are on the extreme opposite in some things. In some ways, the libertarians are more of a threat than modern conservatism because modern conservatism has become a caricature and a joke, as much as religions that "are out there", and is the reason that they are in trouble, whereas libertarianism is more "fresh" and more promoting of cold heartedness than even modern conservatism (which does so in large part for racist reasons.)
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)Of course, I'd rather have neither.
I also don't recall a significant libertarian presence at Zucotti park, after the first few days.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)It may be a bit of a hassle though to find a little gold at the bottom of a garbage can.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)It is a tried and true tactic.
We're in a perilous place in this country. The corporate takeover is almost complete, with militarized police, persecution of journalists and whistleblowers, propaganda machines, and trade deals in the works that will enable corporations to treat Americans like they do third world workers.
I will stand next to any human being who will help to stop the march of this country into fascism.
Choose allies based on issues, not party labels.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)I will stand next to any human being who will help to stop the march of this country into fascism.
Choose allies based on issues, not party labels.
I'm with ya, woo, especially now. Here we are at a juncture in time when the 2014 campaign is still in the early stages, and the 2016 campaign is a political eon away. If there is any good time for Democrats to engage issues, build strategic alliances, and rally for the causes that move us forward, it is now. Now is the time when we can demand that our Democratic candidates represent OUR interests. Those who are trying to shut down debate right now by constructing Libertarian Straw-Bogeymen to scare the loyal Democrats into unquestioning loyalty are apparently very comfortable with the War on (some) Drugs, militarized police, warrentless spying, corporatist & undemocratic trade deals, fracking, etc., etc. But I wonder how they can call themselves Democrats at all...
-app
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)And Libertarians specifically side with the oligarchy.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)to try to keep us from building coalitions against predatory policies.
A sweeping generalization, attempt to smear by party, and insistence that we must "choose sides" based only on party....while avoiding actual issues. The quintessential Third Way response.
See posts 9 and 23 for actual issues related to "oligarchy." Psst...Based on these issues, corporate Democrats you defend incessantly are siding with oligarchy nearly continuously.
Defeating the predators means coming together on what is best for the country. If Libertarians speak out against the MIC, or the drug wars, or the surveillance/police state, that is a GOOD thing, and actual, non-corporate Democrats need to take advantage of it.
Number23
(24,544 posts)But you may have missed them because they are really, really subtle.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 19, 2014, 09:58 PM - Edit history (1)
Number23
(24,544 posts)appal_jack
(3,813 posts)Well, the 'idological' chain-cutters were on-sale last month. Too bad you missed-out.
You've got to give me a bit of a break. I use an i-pad for most of my posting, and I never learned to touch-type....
I guess my 'idological' chains won't come-off until I learn to at least look-up at the screen occasionally before posting.
-app
Number23
(24,544 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)That's what's so stupid about this Orwellian doublespeak. The Libertarians (anarcho-capitalists, laissez-faire capitalists) are for corporations owning and controlling everything.
And yet, the left is played, again and again, because they think that their alliance is true. It simply is not. There is no convergence, we have nothing to do with them.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)I agree that corporate power is the gigantic blindspot of most libertarians.
I (a libertarian Democrat of sorts) resist government power when it is used on behalf of the elites, and corporate power at every chance I get. Whether the oppression is public or private, I believe in resistance.
But your point is well-taken. Too many readers of 'Reason' see no problem in corporate dictatorship even though they are up in arms about Obama or 'socialism' in general.
-app
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You won't have to look for them, they'll find you.
Some here labor under the luxurious illusion that when the ship starts listing, you actually have a choice in the matter. Pristine, brittle ideologies will just be ignored for what they are: Irrelevant.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)unholy alliance is right.
the fucking devil you say.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Provoke visceral reactions rather than thought.
It's easier than actually working on solutions.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)doesn't mean I like it or, that I didn't first puke about it.
and, I still worry about the devil in all this.
It will rear its ugly head and at the worst possible moment.
with much trepidation ... ugh. just ugh.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I am tremendously encouraged that people are starting to move beyond the labels they use to keep us divided. We are being pushed into fascism by these corporate monsters, and that's no overstatement.
You're right, that we need to be careful. But we also desperately need to be forming coalitions to do something, because what we've been doing isn't working.
We're all in this together.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Common ground with a right wing libertarian or common ground with authoritarian fascist war mongers? At least there are some things that right wing libertarian has correct. The fascists (which I see have support in this thread already) are wrong about damn near everything.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)"meeting in the middle and finding bipartisan common ground" with radical regressive economic feudalist, warmongering imperialist, have protected and even endorsed those behind torture and spying on Congress and the American people, partnered with those seeking to destroy public education, and have made repeated efforts with commissions and "gangs" to come up with ways to cut Social Security themselves.
These people are not liberals they work steadfastly against our values and most basic laws, they ridicule and oppose transparency and accountability for the powerful and the wealthy, they attack or at best ignore every union but the police, they tirelessly push disastrous free trade agreements over and over despite lying to get elected, they bail out economy destroying banksters but wring hands about the moral hazards of helping struggling people, and whistle blowers are attacked and jailed but torturers are declared patriots.
Supposedly they are liberal because they aren't bigots but they sure called gay rights a pony until the country passed them right by and many of them quick to side with police that murder black kids in the street and with policies that hobble opportunity and upward mobility for minorities while supporting those that have us locked away for bullshit.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)It's easy to cut through the bullshit propaganda to see who is really on your side.
Simply watch the policies that are being defended, over and over again.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Too much of that in what passes for Party leadership. Frankly, they are FAR more trigger-fingered criticizing anything to the left of LBJ than anything on the far right. The Party leadership fears the FR, and cannot risk the slightest reform without defining itself, and thereby incurring the wrath of corporate power; they have made impotency into a creed.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)with even the Devil and his grandmother if it's necessary to gain a victory on a single issue or even a range of issues. The Old Man also said that in any UF you should be prepared to turn your guns on your front partners at any time AFTER you achieve your limited goals.
Words to live by AFAIC.
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 17, 2014, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)
I sincerely doubt that Trotsky would have anything good to say about libertarians, but yes, he was about those temporary United Fronts and subsequent betrayals. Not words to live by in my book... Yes, Trotskyites and libertarians have marched in anti-war marches together at times, but the posted article is about more substantive left-libertarian alliances to achieve reforms, not revolutions and firing squads.
Interestingly, I recall my days of the late 1980's when I lived in NYC and actual Trotskyites and anarchists (as I described myself at the time - no more, though) could be found together doing the Central American Solidarity and Anti-Death Squad work that was important then. One of my teenaged anarchist buddies who was exceptionally well-read for his (or anybody's) age would tease the Trotskyites about "turning guns on front partners" after the revolution. Some of them actually would dissemble, bow their heads, and shuffle their feet when called on this. We thought it was hilarious, but still marched together in the anti-Death Squad rallies, because Reagan was a bastard and numbers counted.
-app
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)usually right before they executed us. I much prefer Trotskyist. But you're right, Trotsky would have thought of libertarians as capitalist anarchists and considered them worse than useless. Most of the time anyway. But in some matters he would have considered them "the Devil and his grandmother" if working with them achieved something positive for the working class.
That's about what I think about them.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)"They have come out with dangerous slogans. They have made a fetish of democratic principles. They have placed the workers' right to elect representatives above the Party. As if the Party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship temporarily clashed with the passing moods of the workers' democracy!"
Trotsky spoke of the "revolutionary historical birthright of the Party":
"The Party is obliged to maintain its dictatorship...regardless of temporary vacillations even in the working class...The dictatorship does not base itself at every given moment on the formal principle of a workers' democracy..."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/brinton/1970/workers-control/06.htm#h1
We have literally nothing in common with fucking laissez-faire capitalists. Nothing. Literally. The idea that this is actually being proposed by so called socialists is beyond comprehension. Read this post I made to see what so called Libertarians say and what they mean. They are kings among kings of doublespeak and misinformation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100278930
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)but if they're correct on a specific issue, I'm not going to oppose them ON THAT ISSUE just because they're incorrect on everything else. You can support NSA and endless wars overseas if you want simply because the libertarians oppose them. I personally will oppose them too.
As to Trotsky being wrong in your example, if the working class because of temporary hardships imposed in reaction to an inevitable counterrevolution inspired and directed by the capitalist class, turns to fascism then yes, I will oppose that too.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)None, it's a trick. It's like a trick climate change denialists use or creationists use. Use language you would agree with or that seems sensible, but mean something completely different.
Rosa Luexmburg had plenty to say about Lenin and Trotsky's "slogans" against "imperialism." And it wasn't very kind. The Petropavlovsk resolution was in no way imperialist. Trotsky later learned just how bad Stalin's type of Marxist-Leninism was.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)on any issue. I know what I mean by opposition and that's what counts. And I have so little in common with libertarians, most of whom are anarcho-capitalists, that I couldn't conceive of a situation where I'd actually support any sort of libertarian candidate for any office. I personally have seen (and have said this before) their agenda as a fraud. They claim freedom for people in personal issues and for capitalism in the big issues. But just like any libertarian that gets elected to anything, they support the capitalists NOW in their oppression, while claiming that the personal libertarian issues are "next". And that "next" never comes.
However, if a libertarian claims to be in favor of legalization of marijuana or claims to be against foreign adventurism, or claims to be against the NSA, I'm NOT going to stand up and say he or she is wrong on those issues just because they are being brought up by a libertarian. IOW, I'm NOT going to change MY positions because some moron of a libertarian is like some stopped clock and is right those two times a day.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)But you fall into a very big trap if you don't call them out on their BS.
A climate change denier says "we don't have an exact value for CO2 forcing."
That is absolutely, 100%, true. The denier is correct we don't have an exact value.
We have a range. And that rage is correct to several sigma. It's very likely to be within that range.
So we know with 95% certainty but then the denier retorts, "But you don't really know."
That's the language of the libertarian capitalist. They are absolutely for marijuana legalization, but they are not against discrimination based upon marijuana usage. How is this compatible with our views? There is no compatibility. They are fooling us. Even on issues we agree upon, they don't actually agree.
So, fine, you say "if they try to block non-discrimination based on marijuana usage, we'll call them out on it." Except at that point it's too late, you've been their ally, they will call you an ally, they will say that you agree on all issues but this one, and what does it matter, who wants more laws, right? You come to the table with a lower hand and they know it. That's how the Reganites, the Libertarians, have been winning. They force the narrative to be about their faux views and when you call them on it you're left standing there with nothing.
I refuse to ally with libertarians because I know what happened when the anarchists allied with the state socialists who shared their views. I know about the prison camps, I know about the forced labor, about the executions. And really, right wing capitalism is actually fascism, so why I would ally with fascists on even the smallest detail is beyond me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)agbdf
(200 posts)I also dislike the extreme radical Left. I have never forgiven Nader and his kooky followers for costing Gore an outright electoral win in 2000.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)on the fringes myself. But I know better now.
In fact, I'm not terribly fond of the fringe left in general these days, even if some aren't also swinging to the end of the spectrum. But I personally don't consider folks like Suey Park, Mikki Kendall, Noel Ignatiev, Trudy at Gradient Lair, etc. to be my allies, for various reasons(for example, Suey Park lost her shit over a Colbert sketch, Kendall stirred up a bunch of shit with that annoying little #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen hashtag, and the not-so-decent lady at G.L. has some obvious issues of her own, including constant hate-ons towards white feminists who happen not to agree with her 100%. And I could go on.).
I'm sure some may disagree, but it doesn't hurt to cut out individual people and cliques who may be genuinely dragging a movement down.....something that, I think, Occupy should have done with the Paulites a long time ago; just as the more hardcore literal "white privilege" pushers in Social Justice, the Paulites and their fellow libertarians have done much more harm than good for Occupy.
I'm all for a "Big Tent", but sometimes, you gotta kick a few people out, you know? I'd honestly take someone like Melissa Harris-Perry over Glenn Greenwald any day, anyway.
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)I would not fear libertarians too terribly much. They are doing an excellent job splitting the GOP in half right now, with their opposition to social conservatives. At the same time, they will never be in a position to hold a great deal of power, as the majority of conservatives are going to oppose their for their stance on things like same sex marriage, while the majority of progressives aren't going to vote for a group that would gut the federal government and leave the poor and the sick to die.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)They voted for Bush twice, and they now can not escape the fact that his 2 terms were a total disaster.
They are social and fiscal conservatives who are pro-business, and pro-expanded use of the military to achieve business objectives.
They hate Democrats and liberals. They played around with being Tea Party members until that group proved to be totally insane.
They voted for Romney. And they'll be voting for the GOP candidate in 2016.
They'd love to get Dems to stay home.
Cha
(297,196 posts)Ratfucking
Ratfucking is an American slang term for political sabotage or dirty tricks. It was first brought to public attention by Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in their book All the President's Men.
Ratfucking - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfucking
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And not just with Greenwald and folks like him. There's a much wider problem afoot. EOM