General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPrinceton study: U.S. no longer an actual democracy
http://progresoweekly.us/princeton-study-u-s-longer-actual-democracy/
Princeton study: U.S. no longer an actual democracy
By Brendan James • Published on August 17, 2014
A new study from Princeton spells bad news for American democracy—namely, that it no longer exists.
Asking “[w]ho really rules?” researchers Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page argue that over the past few decades America’s political system has slowly transformed from a democracy into an oligarchy, where wealthy elites wield most power.
Using data drawn from over 1,800 different policy initiatives from 1981 to 2002, the two conclude that rich, well-connected individuals on the political scene now steer the direction of the country, regardless of or even against the will of the majority of voters.
“The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy,” they write, “while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.”
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
alsame
(7,784 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)We are a Republic government
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Oh please!
We were a DEMOCRATIC republic.
because every citizen (of age) has the right to vote. Not just wealthy citizens or male citizens or something like that. And anyone (who satisfies the requirements that are not political...like age) can (could) run.
It's the process of how we chose out reps that made the republic democratic.
I suppose now we are a Plutocratic republic.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Please don't express that outside of DU. We are loving, others may not humor you.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Don't express what? The nonsense that the USA is (was) just a republic?
Oh, that's what you said to make you feel better...sorry.
Must be the Plutocratic Republic stuff that might upset others.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Indydem
(2,642 posts)How about a Republic? Are we still one of those? Since we were never a Democracy?
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)A democratic republic would've never had the electoral college, it would've been direct election of representatives.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)these concepts aren't opposites no matter how much certain people would like them to be. If we dismantled the electoral college, through a constitutional amendment, we would still be a constitutional republic, and we would be more democratic.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)A democratic republic is North Korea... Or The Congo. We were not founded on those principals.
A republic is were the power resides with the people, and is ruled through elected representatives. A democracy is where all eligible citizens participate equally in the process.
They are similar, but not the same. They're not opposites, but still, there are differences.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)In reality it is governed by an inherited oligarchy. To say all citizens participate equally in North Korea's government is a farce beyond belief. There is nothing democratic about it.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)of the countries that consider themselves democratic republics...
Congo, NK, Laos, Algeria, Ethiopia, Sri Lanka, et al...
Sort of like how there was nothing socialist about the National Socialists...
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)What was missing was democracy, once they took power.
See Ludwig Von Mises take on it
http://mises.org/daily/47
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)We are an oligarchy. However, most of us are in heavy denial.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)
or not. Depends.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)but total domination comes close. It's no longer "have a good game", now it's "go out and kick some ass."
cui bono
(19,926 posts)For the rest of us we are given the illusion of having a say and given sides to choose to keep us divided. Too many are falling for it. Look at all the people even on DU who call people Paulbots just because Rand says something that we should agree with no matter what party we're in. Or they discount it just because they don't like him so he can't possibly be right about anything. Such simplistic thinking is just helping the oligarchs get what they want. Divide and conquer.
But go team go it is...
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)I mean sure they might pretend to be something else but in the end the rich and powerful are always the ones that run the show and probably will always do so for the foreseeable future.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)been for sometime... Oligarchy/Plutocracy - Fascists State is what our country is, and the sooner we face up to it, the sooner we can begin to repair it.
Not holding my breath.. it's been too apparent, too many are too oblivious to care.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)But only in the sense that our elected representatives have power. The connection that has been broken is that our representatives, by and large, simply don't actually represent most of us any more, just the plutocrats and corporations.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)They represent only themselves and their own hold on the reins of power. They do what the plutocrats and corporations want done, because that is the way they can hold onto power, but it is not representation in the sense of loyalty, it is nothing more than a means to an end. If we paid them more money than the plutocrats and corporations did, they would cheerfully represent us. They care only about power and the means by which they can retain it.
valerief
(53,235 posts)cannot be stated often enough.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)agbdf
(200 posts)
calimary
(81,238 posts)Glad you're here. And yeah, you sum it up pretty doggone well. Sad, but true. And yes, we noticed. As usual, DU called it a lot earlier than this report - whether it was released today or four months ago or four years ago. Democracy assumes majority rule, as I understand it. We don't have that. The loud slivers of minorities are running things, and preventing the running of things.
It's been rather obvious for a LONG time to those of us who like to use our heads, our observations, and our critical thinking, seems to me.
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,722 posts)Vincardog
(20,234 posts)
Leith
(7,809 posts)What took Princeton so long?
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)but it is good even right wing ivies like Princeton are recognizing it. Let's hope they now examine the role their graduates have played in creating it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)oldhippie
(3,249 posts)But most people know that.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)They said it is "threatened."
Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened.
And they especially never said that the US has transformed into an oligarchy. This was all discussed back in the spring, when their book came out. And the authors have repeatedly said in interviews that they didn't say America was an oligarchy:
Gilens and Page do not use the term “oligarchy” in describing their conclusions, which would imply that a small ruling class dominates the political system to the exclusion of all others.
...
This is what the data shows: when the economic élites support a given policy change, it has about a one-in-two chance of being enacted. (The exact estimated probability is forty-five per cent.) When the élites oppose a given measure, its chances of becoming law are less than one in five. (The exact estimate is eighteen per cent.) The fact that both figures are both below fifty per cent reflects a status-quo bias: in the divided American system of government, getting anything at all passed is tricky.
The study suggests that, on many issues, the rich exercise an effective veto. If they are against something, it is unlikely to happen. This is obviously inconsistent with the median-voter theorem—which holds that policy outcomes reflect the preferences of voters who represent the ideological center—but I don’t think that it is a particularly controversial claim
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,722 posts)Which are fixed, or at very least directed by more and more and more money. Hypnotic, when done correctly.
Freedom of speech, only in some zones, behind the barrier, no coverage. That's free? I think not.
Association, oh no my close friend said what? Believe me I really don't know him. Ok that's a little sarcasm, but what would you do? No answer required. Reflect.
Policymaking is not done by the regular citizen. It is not done by the elected few, by coercion of the Corporate Dominate. Come on it is so fucking obvious, like a tree in front of you on an empty street.
And... We still run into it. Stupid. Propagandized to submission, and we like it.
We are told, we are free, we are told we have rights, we are told, we are the best, the greatest.
Some believe....... some think, think critically. Then they get it.
Take the quotes off the word threatened.
Not picking on you personally, but pointing out the obvious. I did not mean to offend you just used your post as a jumping off point.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)I tell you. Just little interventions to keep y'all on the road to democracy....and get a US air base...to just keep movin' on.
Liberal_from_va34
(50 posts)The election theft of 2000 only accelerated its demise.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)a politician wants to stay in office he/she will need money. The people/groups willing to give that money (and trips, jobs...) expect that politician to represent THEIR interests. Since Reagan this process has been on steroids. We allow bribery of our elected officials in the form of campaign contributions. Our government approves rather than busts up monopolies and oligarchies. This has allowed the media to be controlled by a few huge corporations who slant everything towards their interests. The banking industry collapsed our economy and nothing was done except to give them a lot of money. They are above the law while average citizens receive even more harsh punishments.
The government was instrumental in breaking up OWS to protect the status quo. The FBI even admits as much in their responses to FOIA Requests. Ever wonder why Obama has been great in many areas, but inexplicably allows Wall Street a pass and their people to determine our financial policy? Why has he not been out front on NSA spying? You cannot become POTUS without owing some pretty big favors!
My solution, such that it is, is to demand Publicly Funded Elections. Outlaw all campaign contributions and Super Pacs. Corporations are not people and money does not = free speech (oxymoron if I ever saw one)! Let's make the media air campaign ads as a public service for use of OUR AIRWAVES!
I know that something as radical as this (returning Representative Democracy to the people) would take millions of people, and although I want this to be done through PEACEFUL protests, I am not naive to think that the PTB would do the same (OWS, Ferguson...)!
However, right now and leading up to the midterm elections would be the perfect time to start! While the politicians are rolling in the gobs of $$$$ being dumped on them we could ask each one the question, "What do you have to do for all that $$$$?" Things are only going to get worse! It's time to stop being distracted by all of the symptoms of this corruption such as public education, anti-union policies, social safety net... And do something that will eventually allow us to fix those and many other issues that we have been unsuccessful at achieving because the game has been rigged against us! Pass this on!!!
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)money from corporations, PACs, etc. out of politics.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)With a Representative government back in play I am pretty sure the AG would go after them!
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)ideally done through a massive general strike.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Most of us are not surprised at all.
geretogo
(1,281 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Next they'll be telling us that rain is wet.
lpbk2713
(42,757 posts)And I'm afraid we passed the FUBAR point some time ago.
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)One down, another one potentially set to go in the fall. I know, I know, more will take their place. But moving them off the stage will feel nice.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)The Congo and North Korea are democratic republics.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)particularly in the case of North Korea. Also very wingnutty claim.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)They've never been actual democracies...
And it's not a ridiculous claim, it's factual.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Hayek?
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)currently and in the past will net you a few results.
East Germany and North Vietnam come to mind. Yemen, Somalia, Georgia and Sudan were all once considered democratic republics...
In the strictest sense of the phrase, a democratic republic is where ultimate power is held by the citizenry, and the govt is run by elected officials. In practice, however, that's never been the case.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)I gave you a few countries that have been labelled (usually self-labelled) as democratic republics. There has never been a democratic republic in the true sense of the phrase, which I provided the definition for. What are you asking for? Sources on world history? Find a history book. I don't happen to still have my history books from college anymore, so I have to work from memory and the google machine to verify.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)North Korea is not actually a democratic republic, no matter what it calls itself.
The whole "democracy/republic" talking point is mostly the domain of right-wing internet trolls. You're not going to find actual historians or political scientists worrying about this very much. The fact that the government is run by elected representatives rather than direct referendum doesn't mean that a system is not a democracy. The terms have become more or less synonymous.
Particularly when discussing issues like this OP, which correctly points out that the fact that US policy correlates highly with the wishes of the wealthy, and not very much with overall opinion of the electorate, excusing this situation by saying "but we're not a democracy, we're a republic" is just plain dumb. The point is that each citizen is supposed to have equal say in the decisions made by the government, but that is not the case in the status quo.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)In fact, the premise is quite true. Each citizen does not have equal say. I agree 100%.
I was arguing political theory, however. 
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)While countries that start with "ice" have active volcanoes!
Countries that start with "germ" are known for domestic cleanliness.
Countries that start with "bra" have lavish festivals featuring topless women.
A casual observer might note that the name doesn't mean much.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Did you know that Miracle Whip is actually made by normal physical processes?
That Chock Full O' Nuts is coffee, and contains no nuts?
Rex
(65,616 posts)Light on the Constitution and democracy part imo.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Thank you for pointing out the real, inconvenient, whitewashed history of this country.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But just as total whitewashing does no good.....neither does the opposite. It helps to have a balanced and objective view whenever such is possible. 
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)They also lived in the 18th and early 19th centuries.....
....where everyone thought and acted and knew all the things we do now! Oh wait....
So many little and not so little things we take for granted now did not (could not) even occur to the Founding Fathers. Things like women not wearing corsets, or men with lace cuffs and powdered wigs not being normal. Hell, even the concept of TIME was a local thing. Clocks never synced up until the Railroads were invented. Indoor plumbing! A huge myriad of differences that would make it VERY hard for any of us to survive in the Founding Father's time.
Pointing out they lived in the 18th century is very important, but must be understood too. (It's the entire problem with the 2nd amendment)
The THING is we've gotten better (women can vote as well as take off their corsets) or we USED to get better. We 're not supposed to be going backwards.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And most of even the slave owners (Jefferson for example) actually did have the desire to (eventually) eliminate slavery. Of course, it did, sadly, take damn near three quarters of a century to do so, but we did.
And yes, this country IS a Democratic Republic. It may never have been a perfect one, but that's what we were founded as.....contrary, of course, to the ramblings of the fringe Teabagging right(who still insist that democracy and republicanism are not consistent with each other and that this country was supposed to be, from then 'till the end of time, a white landowners only "paradise".....).
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)It exists as nothing but a mechanism to enrich a tiny cabal at the expense of the masses.
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)Laughing Mirror
(4,185 posts)While hiding behind manufactured wars, manufactured supposedly to spread something that no longer exists here if it ever did ... democracy.
kairos12
(12,859 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)a month or two ago? I thought there was a British one too, or something. I could be 100% wrong about that, but I thought there was one already released that said something similar.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)...these little pockets of "Survival of the Richest".
The attitude being the vast masses of those countries are either irrelevant or a commodity. (Slave Labor)
This went on even before the Cold War. (See: The Banana Wars) but the boogie man known as "Communism" made it easier. We backed every right wing dictator who then wiped out native populations and took their land. The only concern we had was they rubber stamp and enforce any contract we put in front of them. If the locals didn't like it, tough. They would have to go through a militarized police force.
Americans didn't CARE that we were doing this because the same people who were doing this abroad were providing a prosperous middle class at home. This served as a propaganda tool to other nations about what Capitalism could provide for them and pacified the population.
When the Berlin Wall fell and the USSR soon after they no longer had a NEED to prop up a middle class which was really cutting into the bottom line so they decided then and there to use the same model of the rest of this side of the globe here at home.
Suddenly Americans are told they are 'spoiled' and 'expect too much'. The entire focus was on the BIG LIE which is your boss is in the same boat. That things are tough all over and your boss can't AFFORD to pay you more. Then they claim the ones to blame are the Liberals and "Big Government" creating unnecessary and restrictive regulations, expensive environmental laws and of course, their welfare for the criminal minorities.
If it weren't for the Internet there would be a whole hell of a lot higher percentage of the population who would buy this.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)that the US is not a democracy, but a republic.
Republic: a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
Here's the twist. "The people" are no longer part of the process, except for producing a vote on election day. Putting aside the concern that the vote can always be stolen, we also have to worry about a filtering process that ensures that the people who run for office are more committed to the elitist group of politicians and their campaign donors, than they are to the people who elected them.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
... yeah! I love these reports from Princeton, et.al., that verify what us down here on the bottom already know. 
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I am glad they are catching up to reality or reality is catching up to them. I hope they aren't in charge of writing history books.
Hoppy
(3,595 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)It's just that half of them are pleased by this development. 
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)In the early democracies, most political positions were filled by a lottery. People represented themselves. I think we should return to the original democratic system, but without the prejudice against women, etc. Congress should be filled by lot.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)DhhD
(4,695 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
And it spreads world wide via "trade agreements" and a host of other insidious corporate actions.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Too many poppies in this country.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)of a dysfunctional society that now depends, whoever they are, on the kindness of rich strangers.
The voting public is starring in another season as Blanche DuBois.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)educating the superior class in the fine art of fucking over the lower class.
“The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy,” they write, “while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.”
Or, as Princeton would say, mission accomplished.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)He's been saying this and lotsa other important stuff like this for over a decade!
LloydS of New London
(355 posts)Rec to thread.
nikto
(3,284 posts)The US is a Wage-Slave Capital-Fascist-Simulated-Republic.
(Or, Corpitocracy, for short)
nikto
(3,284 posts)I quote:
“ho really rules".
Profound, and true.
And you thought it was a mis-spelling.
Translated:
("Hoes" to $$$$)
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)That means everything that has happened in the past TWELVE YEARS is not included. I have a feeling these researches would be shocked at the results if they pulled more recent information. It is getting much worse than it was in 2002.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)Corporate Fascist state is what we are. Yes, fascist.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)My poli sci 101 class discussed this last fall using strict definitions. We all came to the conclusion that the US if not already fascist, was quickly headed in that direction. The only person who vehemently disagreed - a student who was born and went to school in the US. All the other students - most of us were from Canada, but about 1/3 were from other countries around the world, decided that the US was indeed, or nearly, fascist.
niyad
(113,293 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)
harun
(11,348 posts)Now they don't need the façade.
Full Corporate Representative Republic now run by billionaire oligarchs.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Hotler
(11,421 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)policy. Politicians are chasing the money because they believe that a nice TV ad will get more voters to support them than good positions. Sadly, they’re often correct.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)No shit??????
CanonRay
(14,101 posts)like we hadn't figured that out.
Rex
(65,616 posts)We live in a plutocracy. No doubt and thanks for the proof. As sad as that is.
Enoki33
(1,587 posts)how elections are financed. Until that changes the corporations and their wealthy individual partners will continue to write laws that dictate the national direction, and makes them even more money and power. Take a look at the amount of millionaires and billionaires in Congress!. They operate in a very different world and have little or no concept of the one inhabited by the average working person. And still we keep electing them, wondering why our interests are not represented. That old saying about the definition of insanity ....Corruption has been sanitized to make it palatable by calling it lobbying.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)
lark
(23,099 posts)It's all been down hill since then. Obama's done some good things, but nothing major to restore our rights against the oligarchy. In fact, he's trying to make things worse on that front with the TPP.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Geez. The Founding Fathers set up a republic, not a democracy. They particularly wanted to avoid a democracy as they saw it as "mob rule".
As Benjamin Franklin said to the lady who asked what type of government they had agreed upon, he said, "My dear lady, we have given you a republic...if you can keep it."
indepat
(20,899 posts)the people are shaped for the benefit and welfare of the oligarchs, and yes, the rest of the 10%, rather than for the general welfare, when the 90% have some 90% of the vote? Of course the system is wholly corrupt when most elected officials vote in the interest of and for the welfare of the oligarchs, no matter the will of their constituents. That said, the general electorate are surely some of the dumbest, most ignorant ignoramuses who have ever walked the face of the earth by continuing to return to office those who almost exclusively vote the oligarchic will. The system is wholly broken imo and the impact of corrupted policies that benefit the oligarchs and rest of the 10% will show its blatantly ugly face via a forever increasing decline in all quality of life ranking factors in which the good ole USofA presently ranks at or near the bottom among all industrialized nations. All the foregoing is the handiwork of a virulently right-wing corporatist government and all who fail to see this help perpetuate the corruption imo. 