NBC: 'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say

[Algernon Moncrieff]

Complete article at: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/streamers-birds-fried-midair-solar-plant-feds-say-n183336

Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant's concentrated sun rays — "streamers," for the smoke plume from birds that ignite in midair. Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year reported an average of one "streamer" every two minutes.They’re urging California officials to halt the operator's application to build a still-bigger version until the extent of the deaths is assessed. Annual estimates range from a low of about a thousand by BrightSource to 28,000 by an expert for the Center for Biological Diversity environmental group.

[Politicalboi]

1. That's a lot of birds every two minutes

I hope they can work a better way. Maybe a sound that makes birds not fly over. How many just escape the burn out only to die a few minutes later.

[Fred Sanders]

3. What it is is a mountain of BS from one hard steamy turd.

[Fred Sanders]

2. What is this? A coordinated blogging by the Kochs to convince the world some disputed bird killings

should end solar power plants?

Like the fourth repost by recently signed up members.....they are afraid of the truth...the Sun is power unlimited, the end of fossil fuels is just around the corner.

[eShirl]

11. I dunno, is Audubon a tool of the Kochs?

https://twitter.com/AudubonCA

[Fred Sanders]

12. Audubon is concerned, but the whole article is slanted towards the idea of no more plants....low

information drive by information takers will not see it that way I see.

[JaneyVee]

4. Lots of wildlife die in oil spills too.

[deathrind]

5. This is sad to hear.

Having said that this is still the lessor of two evils. The continued use of fossil fuels which is contributing to the death of birth for a countless number of species that live on both land and in water needs to be reduced to the point of zero sooner rather then later.

[msongs]

6. rooftop solar for everyone instead of corporate control kills few if any birds nt

[Fred Sanders]

7. Rooftop solar is giving the electrical monopolies nightmares. Why wouldn't people?

Finding a way so people do not is now a prime directive.

[Sunlei]

8. why couldn't they place the water to heat at ground lvl and focus sun through prisimed glass down?

one "streamer" every two minutes

[Fred Sanders]

13. That is highly disputed as stated in the article....those are long range visual sightings of...what?

[Sunlei]

17. It's frying birds. test it yourself aim a mirror at a thermometer.

[Fred Sanders]

18. I aimed it at a bird. Looked at me strangely.....

[Thor_MN]

16. Design effectiveness.

1. Putting the light through any glass at all would greatly increase losses over reflection from front surface mirrors, not to mention the heat in the "prisms." The most effective design is one bounce off a mirror, directly onto the collector.

2. The mirrors alone are over 600 acres. There space between the heliostats. Excavating a thousand acre site to place the beams at ground level would be an enormous project, and cause the heliostats on the side towards the sun to shade a portion of the array for part of the day.

That said, they need to find a way to deter birds from flying through beams.

[Sunlei]

20. someone has to clean all the fried animals off those mirrors, & the sandstorms must ruin them.

It's a steam driven turbine.

[Thor_MN]

23. Take a look at a picture of the site.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ivanpah+Dry+Lake+energy+plant&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=brHyU_qYAoqZyASS-IKoBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw&biw=1594&bih=891#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=UGncGMX6xy-PpM%253A%3BvijkHohjgkFRFM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftrends.directindustry.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F02%252FIvanpah.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftrends.directindustry.com%252Fnews-trends%252Fthe-worlds-largest-solar-thermal-plant-opens-amidst-doubts%252F%3B1170%3B780

Almost of the mirrors at some point during the day are going to be tilted at an angle high enough that would cause anything to slide off.

The mirrors at the site total hundreds of acres (over 600). The number of birds it would take to measurably affect output would be astronomical, if they did "stick". There's regular maintenance to clean the mirrors, dust is likely a much bigger concern.

If there were to be a sandstorm, they would turn the heliostat mirrors away from the wind.

Not sure how it being a steam driven turbine is even relevant to anything.

Your subject line "points", which are mostly not true, are not relevant to what I posted.

Don't get me wrong, they need to find a way to divert the birds.

[Sunlei]

29. one mirror, one home. water heated by the sun.

Its along a water to water flyway & the mirrors also look like water.

I'd like to see this adapted for personal use, along with roll out, light weight solar mats.

If the roasted birds slide off the 600 acres of mirrors, then the Corp should allow a count of birds on the ground. At night of course. I guess the 'workers' work at night cleaning their acres of mirrors. I bet the desert snakes love it under the shade of those mirrors.

[Thor_MN]

35. Aren't you just a bundle of sunshine, finding reason after reason with no logic.

I get it, you hate the concept. Doesn't make much of anything you said true and it's mostly irrelevant to what I have said.

[Sunlei]

36. love the idea of steam engine water heated by the sun.

Do think the footprint of acres of mirrors super heating the air and covering the ground creates quite a bit of collateral damage.

we haven't even mentioned how many snakes, desert critters become trapped in the gear wells under the mirrors. Or the glare towards planes. problems with grit, sand etching glass and damaging machinery, computers, the health concerns, safety hazards for of any 'workers'. Who are the workers? locals or a prison leased work crew?

The article also mentioned piping 1000 degree steam to oil wells. Any wildlife, humans, ground microbiology exposed to that steam, the heated pipes could be injured/wiped out also.

You're incorrect, I don't 'hate' the concept.

[Thor_MN]

37. Sure sounds like you do.

You keep coming up with strawman arguments against the plant. (Prison leased work crew? Really? Seriously?)

You argue for happy, shiny, distributed, localized use of the technology. While pleasantly ignoring all your own arguments. Yes, let's put hundreds of thousands of mirrors, all over the landscape, blinding pilots left and right. Let's put them where people live (with all the problems you've made up, plus the fact that people do not live in the desert, where there is much more sunlight). Let's distribute the maintenance over thousands of miles.

You don't think the designers of the heliostat equipment even considered covering the machinery? Do you believe that workers are going to take sand inside the control building and pour it into the computers?

How are exactly are heated pipes going to be injured?

The plant was designed to work in the desert. It's the way it is because that was the best way that very smart people could come up with. Which is what I have been saying from the start. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to these inane questions you keep coming up with. So I think I'll just note that the people that designed it know a lot more about it than either you or I, and that they need to find a way to reduce/eliminate it's impact to wildlife.

It should be compared, not to a shiny fantasy backyard system, but to an energy plant of equal output, using fossil fuels, nuclear, wind or water in terms of its impact on the environment.

[Sunlei]

40. you seem pretty upset at questions. why is that?

This facility has only been up working from February. They want to build another, much larger. Why don't they allow people in to pick up the dead birds and do an actual count? quite a bit of difference between one every 2 minutes and 1,000. How does the Corp. know its 1,000?

They mention 'jobs' in their lovely video , my question about how many local jobs and are those 'jobs'(mentioned in the corps video) a prison leased work crews (or foreign visa work crew)

I don't accept any Corporations 'word' without question.

[Thor_MN]

41. I don't get upset at questions. I get annoyed with stupid questions.

You have been raising stupid question after stupid question with me. Most of them bear tenuous, if any, bearing to reality.

Please, feel free to take your questions back to the OP, just stop asking them of me.

[Sunlei]

42. a shame because science flows like a river, it is full of questions.

It's ok to say you don't know or just don't answer. People that question science often go down blind alleys and discover new things.

[Thor_MN]

43. I AM a scientist. Like I said, I don't get upset with questions.

I get annoyed at stupid, lazy questions. Questions that an ounce of research or thinking would answer. Unhonest questions that are purposed towards casting a negative light on a subject. Questions that are then purposefully ignored when proposing a different tack.

The reason I've been answering is that I do know the answers to your questions. Anyone who paid attention to even a high school physics course knows the answers to your questions.

You have done nothing but come up with ridiculous question after ridiculous question. You have ignored all my questions. Pretty much puts you squarely under a bridge. Please go troll someone else. Have a pleasant day.

[Sunlei]

44. A scientist with interest in physics! There are other ways to superheat water?

Ways with less of a land footprint & less collateral damage?

what about lightning bolts, (not to gather the electricity) bolts superheat the air around each strike. or lava? or a garbage dump with plasma gasification, the gas produced from vaporizing garbage, heats the water.

Plasma gasification, all a cities garbage in and electricity out. wouldn't even need a steam engine to turn turbines.

Alright, I'll leave you alone with your miles of mirrors. Have a good day!

[NYC_SKP]

9. Meh. More anti-renewable energy propaganda from the fossil fuel industry, I suspect.

[Fred Sanders]

14. Of course it is, all I get out of the article is that there has been no clear evidence of massive

bird deaths, it is being investigated.

To tie the problem to approval of other solar plants....that is the intended purpose.

Remember when the auto industry almost was shut down because autos killed a lot of.....humans?

Me neither.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

27. I know the fossil fuel industry is fond of quoting Golden Eagle death stats re: wind turbines.

I'd like to think NBC hasn't sunk to straight shilling a la FAUX, but perhaps I'm naive. That said, let's say the story is true at face value: my takeaway would be that it's a design flaw that can likely be addressed with noisemakers, giant animatronic gargoyles, or something similar. Wind and solar still don't have greenhouse gas issues, and as pointed out elsewhere in the thread -- tarsands tailings can kill some wildlife as well.

[NYC_SKP]

34. There probably are solutions, as you suggest.

And, really, these can only be tested on a full-scale operational level, there's no other way.

To suggest that we shut them down while studying the problem is batshit crazy.

We need small and large scale wind and solar, and energy storage strategies, like right away.

[eShirl]

10. looks like a really huge solar oven

:large

[Fred Sanders]

15. Not really, each mirror focus to the spot at the top of the tower, only the area around it is hot.

[eShirl]

22. like I said

[eShirl]

30. "parabolic solar cooker" (library of congress website)

http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/SciRefGuides/solarovens.html

[Fred Sanders]

32. Give it up, who was talking about parabolic mirrors, let alone cookers?

[Shankapotomus]

19. Solution

Enclose the entire plant in a giant semi-spherical green house.

[Thor_MN]

38. A thousand acre green house to reduce the solar input?

Sounds... Large... and window washing is going to be a huge pain in the ass.

[krispos42]

21. It would have to be right near the collection point

Obviously, the light from one mirror wouldn't be enough to ignite a bird in mid-flight. It would have to be near the central collector, where dozens of beams are focused. And if there is any curvature to the mirrors, that would be the focal point for them as well on an individual basis.

That area can't be too big...

[daleo]

24. House cats kill orders of magnitude more birds

As do buildings and electricity lines.

Oil sans tailing ponds kill plenty of birds as well.

[Exultant Democracy]

26. Oh come on now with your relevant comparisons and statements of fact.

[Generic Brad]

25. If only they could teach chickens bathed in batter to fly

This could be the start of an interesting franchise.

Is it possible for those things to get airborne if their bones are removed?

[Thor_MN]

39. Ooooo.... Batter spray stations, radar guided...

Borrow "Iron Dome" technology, scale it down, hit the incoming birds with a spray of batter and voila!!

[burrowowl]

28. Kick for Later Read

[B Calm]

31. Last week it was wind turbines killing birds. hmmm. .

[Generic Other]

33. How many salmon killed off by hydroelectric?

Nuclear kills everyone. Wind turbines decapitate anything that sticks its head in their way. Birds, animals, children. Every solution creates new problems.