Yes, NY tenured teachers can be fired. NY Education Code actually lists reasons for firing...

[madfloridian]

after a due process hearing.

to DUer dsc for this link below.

Section 1 refers to how teachers can gain tenure which is simply due process. They have a probationary period of 3 years, just what Florida teachers had before tenure was abolished here in 2011.

Part 2 refers to how teachers who are tenured can lose their jobs.

N.Y. EDN. LAW § 3012 : NY Code - Section 3012: Tenure: certain school districts

Part 2 begins in the middle of a very long paragraph.

2. At the expiration of the probationary term of a person appointed
for such term, subject to the conditions of this section, the
superintendent of schools shall make a written report to the board of
education or the trustees of a common school district recommending for
appointment on tenure those persons who have been found competent,
efficient and satisfactory, consistent with any applicable rules of the
board of regents adopted pursuant to section three thousand twelve-b of
this article. Such persons, and all others employed in the teaching
service of the schools of such union free school district, common school
district and/or school district employing fewer than eight teachers, who
have served the probationary period as provided in this section, shall
hold their respective positions during good behavior and efficient and
competent service, and shall not be removed except for any of the
following causes, after a hearing, as provided by section three thousand
twenty-a of such law: (a) insubordination, immoral character or conduct
unbecoming a teacher; (b) inefficiency, incompetency, physical or mental
disability, or neglect of duty; (c) failure to maintain certification as
required by this chapter and by the regulations of the commissioner.

Removed "after a hearing" for:

Insubordination
Immoral character
Conduct unbecoming a teacher
Inefficiency
Incompetency
Physical or mental disability
Neglect of duty
Failure to maintain certification

Campbell Brown recently went on the attack against teachers on tenure in New York by announcing an anti-tenure lawsuit

In one of her interviews she said that "Tenure is permanent lifetime employment."

If I am reading the education code above correctly, that is simply not true.

[Uncle Joe]

1. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.

[madfloridian]

2. ....

You are welcome. It's so unbelievable how the "reformers" can say anything on TV or print and everyone believes it. When teachers try to defend themselves, few listen.

[Uncle Joe]

3. Teachers are easy targets because there are so few of them relative

to parents and students not mention they can't match the big money arrayed in favor of making them scapegoats for society's ills.

Great nations honor teachers and pay them accordingly, because they know good teachers have among the greatest impacts on future generations, our nation worships at the altar of the almighty dollar and short term thinking.

Peace to you, madfloridian.

[madfloridian]

4. When Whoopi sounded off about firing bad teachers, she hurt a lot of "good" teachers.

When she was not aware of this truth.

Yes, teachers are scapegoats....too much trouble to defend them.

[msanthrope]

5. One year on the job.....13 years suspended and this NYC teacher still isn't fired....

Guy sits in an NYC rubber room for sexual harassment of students....

The NYC rubber rooms, extensively documented here and here,were supposed to be eliminated by the UFT in 2010. The union however, merely morphed the rubber rooms into an alternative administrative system that costs the NYC taxpayers 29 million a year...and it is still nearly impossible to fire these teachers, since the process still takes years:

So, aided and abetted by a Byzantine arbitration process, teachers sit in an expensive purgatory . Still worse, the arbitrators, chosen jointly by the city and the UFT, have set endless precedents against firing almost anyone.

Which explains why, as The News reported, Shenequa Duke, a Bronx special education teacher, collects pay even though she used a broom to hit a student who arrived late. A hearing officer suspended her for 45 days.

It explains why Stefan Hudson, a former dean who grabbed, shook and slammed a student into the table, is still collecting pay. He got off with a $10,000 fine and orders to attend an anger management seminar.

It explains why Edgar Ortiz, a Bronx public school teacher who patronized a prostitute — and then failed to inform his superiors of the arrest as required — escaped with a $7,500 fine.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/bad-rubber-room-bounce-article-1.1478935

This particular asshole ran his real estate business using school property and computer.....got only fined although his principal wanted him fired... and turned around and sued the DOE.

The morphed rubber rooms had over 300 teachers collecting 29 million in 2013.....

The city will spend a whopping $29 million in 2013 on the salaries and benefits of outcast educators who are deemed too dangerous or incompetent to work in public school classrooms but cannot be immediately fired, the Daily News has learned.

As of Friday, there were 326 city educators who have been reassigned away from the classroom yet were still collecting pay, a sharp rise from 2012, when 218 ousted teachers drained $22 million from city coffers, Education Department records show.

The teachers and school administrators are accused of abusing kids, breaking rules or just being lousy educators. But they're still collecting salaries because of a controversial firing process that makes it too difficult to terminate bad employees, education officials charge.

Back in 2010, Mayor Bloomberg and the city teachers union agreed to eliminate the shameful "rubber rooms" that house these expensive educational pariahs, but critics say the only difference is that today the accused teachers are spread out in spare offices across the city instead of being herded together.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/city-spend-29m-paying-educators-fire-article-1.1477027

This is what New Yorkers are tired of.

[madfloridian]

7. You showed reformers' side of it. May I present the teachers' side? It matters a lot.

The Gotcha Squad
http://rubberroom3020-a.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-gotcha-squad-and-new-york-city.html

Paid Detention
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/rubber-rooms-costly/50808c9b02a760728d000131

A response from the one you called an "asshole"...who btw won his case recently.
http://protectportelos.org/warrengate-files/

NYC Rubber Room Reporter and ATR CONNECT
http://nycrubberroomreporter.blogspot.com/


One way to look at these "rooms" is that they are teachers who have been accused of something, and they are awaiting their "due process".


There is a lot more out there, but we could do this thing all day. Because the reformers have the money and power, and because they have put the blame on these rooms on the unions.....there is a lot more out there from them as well.

I listed the reasons teachers could be fired though they have tenure. The district bears a responsibility in seeing that they get their "due process" quickly.

[msanthrope]

8. Indeed....it is the teacher's contracts that allow for this. You can't have it both

ways....teachers both benefiting from the paid admin leave, because their union contract allows for it, whilst their union actively throws a monkeywrench into the arbitration process, encouraging slowdown and refusing to agree to hire arbitrators who will fire teachers.

FYI..Mr. Porteleos is an asshole...and was fined for using school property to run his real estate business. If a charter school did that, what would you say?

A teacher used a broom on a SPED kid and wasn't fired. That's something that should be allowed?

Francisco Olivares? Pedophile.....still getting paid....

http://nypost.com/2010/02/07/exiled-queens-teacher-on-payroll-despite-knocking-up-student/

This is what New Yorkers are sick of. It's time for UFT to take the trash out.

[madfloridian]

11. Wow. The NY Post again.

Why do you keep linking to the NY Post? You are so angry with teachers that there apparently will be no discussion.

Again....I must

[msanthrope]

13. Here's the NY Times on the pedophile...should he be fired?

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/28/nyregion/teacher-held-in-sexual-abuse.html

[Agschmid]

51. Survived 1-6 just FYI.

Someone alerted on your source.

[madfloridian]

55. Well, I did not alert. It was someone else.

I know better.

[msanthrope]

61. Um....madflo.....are you suggesting you've never alerted on me? nt

[madfloridian]

65. One time long time ago....I was called the bad guy so I know better now.

You are the big winner you know.

[msanthrope]

69. You weren't called a 'bad guy.' I was extremely specific in what I

told you...

You represented to a jury that blue links to old posts were against the TOS. They are not. In fact, admin has given us a very helpful search tool to facilitate finding old posts. (See, post 52 below.)

I let you know precisely what I thought about alerters who mischaracterize the TOS.

If you want, I will be happy to post both your alert, and my PM to you, to refresh your memory.

[msanthrope]

57. Oh lordy...I wonder WHO alerted on me!!!!! nt

[MineralMan]

12. Which tenured teachers have been fired in the past two years?

Have any? If the answer is that none have been fired, then firing is probably not possible in reality. I can guarantee that there are teachers in that enormous school system that meet the conditions for firing. So, how many have been fired in the past two years?

Just pointing to a document that says that tenured teachers can be fired under certain conditions does not mean that they are fired. So, let's see some stats on tenured teacher firings in that school system.

[madfloridian]

44. Then the district needs to get on the ball.

And give them their due process instead of delaying.

[Squinch]

71. I work in schools in NYC, though I am not a teacher. I personally know of many tenured teachers

who have been fired over the years. Some for cause, and some just because their principals didn't like them. The idea that NYC teachers can't be fired is a crock.

[Starry Messenger]

14. Chancellor Joel Klein created the rubber room system.

http://www.edwize.org/joel-kleins-bad-faith-argument-the-contours-of-ideological-thinking

<snip>

Having created the “rubber rooms,” Klein instituted a number of perverse incentives that led to a significant increase in the number of teachers placed in them. While a teacher who was excessed from his school remained on that school’s payroll until he found a position at another school, a teacher who was sent to the “rubber room” was removed from the school’s payroll after a brief period. Add to that policy the elimination of meaningful oversight of principal decisions to send teachers to the “rubber room,” and patterns of abuse began to emerge. Some schools and principals had large numbers of staff sent to the “rubber room”; others had very few. When the ‘rubber rooms’ were finally closed, the numbers confirmed that they had been misused: of the approximately 750 cases in the “rubber room,” close to 25% were terminated, resigned or retired as a result of a hearing. (So much for “No one—and the union means no one—gets fired.”) In over 60% of the cases, teachers were returned to active service, either because they were completely exonerated of the charges or because the findings against them were so minimal that a fine was the only penalty levied. The remainder of the cases are still pending.

Now, take note of Klein’s shift to an active voice: “before we stopped this charade…” In truth, Klein opposed the agreement closing of the “rubber rooms,” as he believed that they provided him with a public relations bludgeon to use against teachers and their union. It was only under the direct orders of Mayor Bloomberg that an agreement was reached with the UFT to end them.

Klein’s conducted an ongoing campaign around the “rubber rooms.” Steven Brill, a close personal friend of then Deputy Chancellor Chris Cerf, was brought in to write the New Yorker article to be used in this campaign, and was given complete access to the “rubber rooms” for that purpose. At the same time, a filmmaker making a film critical of the NYC DoE role in establishing and running the “rubber rooms” was arrested for entering and filming one of the sites.

In the above passage and elsewhere in the Atlantic article, Klein mentions that charges against teachers are heard and decided by “union approved” arbitrators. What he neglects to note is that the very same arbitrators must also be approved by his Department of Education. The law requires that both parties approve the arbitrators, in order to ensure that they are impartial and neutral decision makers. When a lawyer such as Klein describes arbitrators in this misleading, one-sided fashion, he is engaged in a calculated misrepresentation of the process. What Klein really wants here is the elimination of the ability of teachers to have a fair, impartial hearing: he wants one side — the DoE — to control completely the person making the decisions, much like he controlled the DoE officers who heard and decided appeals of unsatisfactory ratings. The result is a ‘rubber stamp’ of whatever the principal wants: in the over 1300 ‘U’ rating appeals that have been heard by the Department of Education over the last two school years, exactly 3 cases have had that rating overturned.

<snip>

[msanthrope]

15. And the UFT swore they ended them in 2010....name a tenured teacher

in NYC that's been fired in the last two years.

Indeed...your article highlights how much power the union has in selecting arbitrators. Thanks for proving my point.

[Starry Messenger]

17. No. I'm not your monkey.

You keep moving those goalposts though!

[Starry Messenger]

21. Care to defend why you are posting right-wing trash on DU to support your weak arguments?

http://bermanexposed.org

[msanthrope]

23. Should the pedophile described above still be drawing

a salary? Still have union representation?

I expect you to take the RT posters to task, too, Starry!

[Starry Messenger]

25. I expect DUers to not support Republican trash.

[msanthrope]

27. What about the NY Times is trash? Should that pedophile still be

drawing a salary? Still be represented by a union?

[Starry Messenger]

31. Aww, your buddy got his post hid.

I wonder why. lol.

[msanthrope]

33. Again...should the pedophile described by the NYTimes be drawing

a salary or getting union representation?

[dsc]

36. Here is the guy whose website you are quoting

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Rick_Berman

Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who currently works as a lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. He is the sole owner of Berman & Co., which sponsors many non-profit front groups that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.

He is the President, Executive Director and Director of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). CCF's 2005 IRS return states that Berman works 23 hours a week for the group for which he is paid $18,000. [1] In spite of its name, CCF is more concerned about industry than the consumer. He is also the Executive Director and President of the Employment Policies Institute Foundation the American Beverage Institute and the Center for Union Facts.[2]

According to a July 31, 2006, profile of Berman in USA Today, his company has 28 employees and takes in $10 million dollars a year, but "only Berman and his bookkeeper wife" know how much of the $10 million ends up in their own pockets.[3]

Rick Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming non-profit front groups that advocate for the interests big business while shielding those same businesses from disclosing financial support for these efforts.[4][5]

end of quote

I guess that Goebbels was too busy being dead for you to use him.

[msanthrope]

38. You have me confused with another poster....I'm asking about

a NY times article on a pedophile.

Do you support firing him?

[dsc]

42. No you dishonestly removed your post

and yes it is dishonest to remove your post like that. You quoted this man, you chose it. Now as to your question, he should be fired after a hearing at which it is determined he really is a pedeophile. Just remember in both of our life times one could go to jail for being a sodomite. On edit, I just looked at your Times link. It is from 1989. Yes 1989. Are you really claiming he is still teaching now? One last edit, I will admit he was still getting paid as of 2010 looking at the Post piece. Unlike you I will leave my original stuff up and not deny I said it when confronted as that is what honest people do.

[msanthrope]

45. And I deleted it, once I realized my mistake. If you don't like it, take

it up with admin, and go tell Skinner why there should not be self-delete.

[dsc]

46. It is one thing to self delete

but quite another to then claim I "meant another poster" after I called you on it. That is nothing short of dishonest. You tried to make me look like a big fat liar when I called you out on something you did. Oh, and on the subject of dishonest posts, your Times link is from 1989. On edit the guy is apparently still on the payroll as of 2010

[msanthrope]

50. I did not quote Mr. Berman....but I did link to him, using MM's

link. I think MM quoted him....thus the confusion on your part.

And then I deleted...using the tools admin has granted us. What's wrong with that?

As for making you look like a "big fat liar" I think you should not insult the intelligence of DUers so....Starry already screencapped me, as they threatened to do so. So what am I hiding?

Again...should the pedo have been fired?

[dsc]

72. I answered that

you apparently couldn't be bothered to read it.

[msanthrope]

75. You did answer that....talking about sodomy. I thought

I might give you a chance to clarify your perplexing answer.

He impregnated a 13 year old....not sure what you meant.

[dsc]

78. Here was my answer

Now as to your question, he should be fired after a hearing at which it is determined he really is a pedeophile.

I did mention sodomy to point out that people can say all kinds of things and some of them used to lead to firing. I do think he deserved a hearing to determine the truth of the charges. One thing to note is though, that had they done their job in the first place they could have gotten rid of him prior to his having tenure thus avoiding the hearing. Apparently they didn't investigate him at all prior to giving him tenure.

[msanthrope]

79. So....should Darren Wilson not be fired until he gets an administrative hearing?

Or should the police be able to fire him if he is charged?

He's union, afterall.

The pedo we are talking about was charged and convicted in Queens of molesting two students before the impregnation story came out.

Because of the union contract, the DOE couldn't fire him when he was charged, nor when he was convicted. I don't agree with that.

[dsc]

80. I have no problem with officer Wilson being on paid leave

you will find precisely 0 posts where I state otherwise. He should be on said leave until either he is cleared and put back to work, convicted and put in jail, or fired for cause due to his actions in this case. Just like anyone else he deserves due process provided he wasn't on probation coming into this incident.

[msanthrope]

81. I have a problem with it. nt

[woo me with science]

35. Important post.

Thank you for making explicit the corporate MO here.

[Starry Messenger]

39. You are very welcome!

Thank you for reading.

[madfloridian]

9. More about rubber rooms...in L.A.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11249025

[msanthrope]

10. And again...how can teachers complain about what their union fought for?

This process takes place under the union contract.....teachers benefiting from a slowed system.

[Pisces]

62. I don't care what side you are on, 13 yrs is ridiculous!! No sane person could disagree. Due process

is one thing and then there is this which is abuse of the process. There has to be a middle ground.

[msanthrope]

64. And there's another pedo I describe downthread....nt

[Pisces]

67. Supporting unions and teaches does not mean supporting rubber rooms and teachers

working the system for 13 yrs. I don't understand the attacks you are receiving because you linked to the post. The facts
are still the same and these teachers are skimming the system.

You can't have it both ways.

[msanthrope]

70. Exactly...the union needs to take out the trash, or the people will. Same

with police unions.

[Starry Messenger]

6. k&r

[Starry Messenger]

20. Rick Berman is an extreme right-wing lobbyist.

That website is part of his Center For Union Facts.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Union_Facts

http://bermanexposed.org

A real Democrat wouldn't give him any traffic.

[msanthrope]

22. Should the pedophile I

described above still be drawing a salary? Still have union representation?

That's from the NY times.

[Starry Messenger]

24. Your choice to support Koch brothers-type attacks on unions, not mine.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/rick-berman-chief-corporate-bully

"Now 70, he has used front groups and exaggerated facts flung with a disregard for public consequences for decades. He created the American Beverage Institute in 1991, which attacked Mothers Against Drunk Driving, saying it was not run by women and that using a cellphone in a car is more dangerous than driving slightly drunk. Like fists on a punching bag, Berman unleashed a series of distorted claims to derail any effort that might alter the booze industry’s business model—such as lowering the legal blood alcohol level. His institute’s experts, on his payroll, blare that new cars will soon have breathalyzers, and that people won’t be able to have a “beer at a ballgame.”

In 2012, Berman launched a multi-million dollar attack on unions through his Center for Union Facts organization. The ads compared unions to North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il in order to convince viewers that they should support a federal right-to-work law.

Gut check, anyone?

In an interview with the Boston Globe, Berman summed up his ratf*cking style quite succinctly, declaring, "people remember negative stuff...We can use fear and anger — it stays with people longer than love and sympathy."

Looks like Berman's style reached some suckers here.

[msanthrope]

26. Should the pedophile described above still have union representation and

be drawing a salary???

Should the teacher who used a broom on a SPED kid still be working?

Those are stories from the Daily News and NY Times.

[Starry Messenger]

28. This is your guy, msanthrope.

You are supporting the guy who helped take down Acorn. You can be proud of yourself!

"Advertising against ACORN

In October 2008, as Republicans were accusing ACORN, which organizes in low-income communities, of "voter fraud," EPI took out a full-page ad in the New York Times that directed readers to www.RottenAcorn.com. The ad accused "ACORN of a list of abuses that suggest hypocrisy on some of the group's signature issues: intimidating and firing its own employees if they try to unionize, misappropriating millions of dollars from taxpayer-funded government grants and advocating minimum wage hides while paying its own employees less than minimum wage," reported ProPublica. EPI and Center for Consumer Freedom spokesperson Tim Miller said they placed the ad because after the election, "a lot of the coverage of ACORN is going to go away, but they are going to continue the same corrupt and fraudulent practices." [3]

For years, EPI had fought "ACORN's efforts to increase the minimum wage at the state and federal levels." ACORN says the charges in EPI's are untrue. For example, the group "pledged complete neutrality" when one of its offices "wanted to form a union," explained ACORN's Steve Kest. The employees eventually "decided not to pursue [the union], so nothing came of it." [3]"

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Employment_Policies_Institute#Advertising_against_ACORN

Nothing like seeing support for racist Republican trash on DU, mmm mmm. So great!

Edit: I'm not the one who alerted on MM, btw. But I just screencapped everything, your posts too.

[msanthrope]

30. Again...should the pedophile described by the NYTimes be drawing a salary

or otherwise be getting union representation?

[Starry Messenger]

32. Sould DUers be supporting Rick Berman style attacks on unions and DU teachers?

Looks like the jury said no.

For the curious, msanthrope also posted the same right-wing website that MM got hidden.

[msanthrope]

34. Should the pedophile described by the NY Times have been fired?

Should he still be drawing a salary? Getting union representation?

[Starry Messenger]

37. I'd be embarrassed too.

Don't worry, i'll bookmark this thread for your next tedious attack on unions and teachers. Your fan club is nearly all gone now, but for a few unwary ones, we will always have this treasure.

[msanthrope]

43. I hope you do bookmark it! This thread is a perfect example

of me making a mistake, and then using the admin-given tool to delete something that was not up to community standards. That's part of what makes DU a great website.

You, however, haven't managed to answer whether or not you think a pedophile should still be suported by the union.

So, between the two of us, I'm going to thank you.

And I just got a PM....noting to me that anyone who bothers to screencap another poster is awfully preoccupied with them.....

So thanks for the attention, Starry!!!

[Starry Messenger]

56. Here's the thing about credibility:

When one has placed the turd in the punchbowl of right-wing racist trash to support one's anti-union views, demanding that everyone around examine the turd for its creamy consistency is a losing strategy.

What has been demonstrated here is that when one is anti-union and posting at DU, one runs into a problem. All of those roads lead back to Rick Berman, the Koch brothers, or another of their ilk. It was only a matter of time until anti-union posters here got careless.

My only preoccupation is with hypocrisy.

[madfloridian]

59. .....

[msanthrope]

60. Hey...did you alert on me upthread? You don't have to answer, of course, but

given the screencapping and your disdain of my sourcing, I am just wondering.

[madfloridian]

63. No, I did not alert. I responded to that person to say that I did not.

I alerted on you one time....long time ago. Then I learned that I am the bad guy for doing so.

I learned my lesson.

[msanthrope]

66. Wasn't asking you, madflo. nt

[Starry Messenger]

68. Nope.

[QC]

41. Nice screenshot! n/t

[leftstreet]

18. DURec

But, but how do you get rid of BaD tEAcHeRS??!!!1111



Interesting links, thanks for posting

There is no profession whose workers are more monitored and open to public scrutiny than education. You never, ever hear 'But how do you get rid of bad cops?'

[Nye Bevan]

29. A teacher in New York told an eighth grader "you have a sexy body".

He couldn't be fired because of tenure. So he ended up being paid over $100,000 per year (by the NYC Department of Education) to sit in a "rubber room" and do nothing (he used the time to manage his multi-million dollar real estate portfolio).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZjmfrTAgTxM

Obviously some kind of reform of tenure is needed. .

[madfloridian]

49. WTF is it with all the folks here linking to Murdoch's NY Post????

You said:

A teacher in New York told an eighth grader "you have a sexy body".

He couldn't be fired because of tenure. So he ended up being paid over $100,000 per year (by the NYC Department of Education) to sit in a "rubber room" and do nothing (he used the time to manage his multi-million dollar real estate portfolio).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZjmfrTAgTxM

Obviously some kind of reform of tenure is needed. .

The law is the law. Give them due process and see what happens.

[Nye Bevan]

52. But some of the very best DUers link to the NY Post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x695193

[madfloridian]

53. You had to go back 3 years for that?

Wow, impressive.

[Nye Bevan]

54. It wasn't owned by Murdoch back then?

[madfloridian]

58. I said your post was impressive.

Congratulations.

[woo me with science]

40. K&R

[Enthusiast]

47. Kicked and recommended! Campbell Brown is a liar. Very simple.

[madfloridian]

48. Gish Gallop, JAQ, and their cousins....Gotcha stuff.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Not really discussion anymore, just gotcha...just keep on with questions until one is simply worn out.

[madfloridian]

73. Is it true the "pedophile" referred to so often above was found innocent of all charges? 2008

http://nycrubberroomreporter.blogspot.com/2008/12/francisco-olivares-was-declared.html

Just wondering why I don't see anything about that? This is the only working link I could find.

[msanthrope]

76. Did a court find him "innocent?" Or arbitrators picked by the union and the

DOE.....

Because are you actually disputing the man impregnated a minor?

You do realize that this child molestor was found guilty in Queens, but had his conviction voided over jurisdictional issues. Thing is....he still did the underlying acts. That's undisputed. His claim what that although he touched these minors, it wasn't salacious.

You realize this guy admitted to touching these kids, right?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

74. What proportion of teachers in New York are fired each year?

I think the right way to answer the question "should it be easier to fire teachers in NY" is probably to look at the outcome of the current setup, not to read about it on paper.

If the number is very small, that's strong evidence that it should be easier; if it's very large,
either it should be harder, or they should be looking at more stringent recruitment policies and pay rises.

[msanthrope]

77. 12 teachers in 10 years fired for incompetence....

Even attempting to get the state to dismiss a teacher is prohibitively expensive and burdensome. According to the New York State School Boards Association, the average 3020-a proceeding for a single incompetent teacher extends for 830 days and costs taxpayers $313,000.

Over the 10-year period I studied (1997-2007), just 12 of New York City teachers (of whom there are 75,000 at any given time) were dismissed for incompetent teaching. Teachers who had years of “unsatisfactory” ratings; who were proven over months of hearings to be grossly incompetent; who were verbally and physically abusive to children, parents and colleagues, or who simply failed to come to work for days and weeks on end were returned to classrooms.

My analysis further reveals that the minimum level of teaching effectiveness required for tenured teachers to keep their jobs in New York City schools is defined not by the schools (much less parents and communities) but behind closed doors in arbitration proceedings controlled by the state.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/firing-teachers-mission-impossible-article-1.1615003

[Donald Ian Rankin]

82. And for all causes combined?

If "10 in 12 years" is an appreciable chunk of the total, I'd call that fairly strong evidence that it's too hard to fire teachers, but if it's just that nearly all firings get filed as being for something else - misconduct, say - then it's less convincing.

[msanthrope]

83. Found a wsj article.....

http://online.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-teachers-in-disciplinary-cases-more-often-fined-than-fired-1406510985

[Donald Ian Rankin]

84. As I read that, it looks like 40 in two years.

So that's 20 a year - not nearly as few as the 1 per year for incompetence alone.

To put that in context, I guess NY has between 20,000 and 200,000 teachers in total, so that's somewhere between one teacher in a 1000 and one teacher in 10,000 being fired every year.

The article you link to also mentions "hundreds" of cases being settled, "often" with the teacher resigning or retiring. That would probably be somewhere between 1 in 100 per year and 1 in 1000 per year.

If the statistics are at the lower end of that range, they strike me as reasonable; if they're towards the higher end then that's arguably evidence supporting making firing easier. But either way, it's a lot less clear-cut than the 1-in-200,000ish per year incompetence-alone firings number would suggest.