I am not a marksman, but 11 shots, and only 6 hit intended target?

[HipChick]

Wilson was a lousy shot and murdered this teen in broad day light in a rage

[underpants]

1. Hadn't heard of the shot total before

1. That's a lot if rounds flying around. I would think (hope) that part if training is to keep control on your shots so innocent bystanders ( in this I mean other than Michael Brown) are not hit.

2. A pistol at 30 feet is not a very sure thing- see control above. That is a tough shot for even an experienced hand. But I could be wrong.

[upaloopa]

31. Shooting at someone with their hands up

should give the shooter pause.

[FarPoint]

2. He was in a rage....

Similar to a road rage level of anger...Mike Brown may of dared to talk back to him. That said, he may not of been firing his weapon during a mood of self protection.

[Little Star]

4. Yep. That's where I came down.

[Triple_Threat]

7. Maybe...

It certainly isn't established fact though...

[Jackpine Radical]

34. A minimum of 10 shots is an established fact.

I listened to the tape several times & kept making out 11. With a pause after the first 6.

[Triple_Threat]

47. Agreed...

I was talking about the certainty with which people declared knowledge of Wilson's emotional state at that exact moment.

[Jackpine Radical]

54. Have you ever been in combat? Have you ever shot at another person?

I have.

It puts you into an indescribable state of simultaneous rage and panic. I knew a few people who actually seemed to be addicted to it, and would go out of their way to get into insane situations.

I don't have personal knowledge of "road rage," but I suppose, once something inside you makes the decision to shoot, the whole experience isn't much different than that.

[WCLinolVir]

63. Combat is one thing, policing is another. And I know people who have done both.

None of them acted with a sense of rage. If you have trained and trained well, emotions are not the dominant drive. And anyone who is addicted is pathological.

If the officer did shoot in rage/fear, then he was not well trained.

[Triple_Threat]

68. Yes and yes...

... And there wasn't a bit of rage or panic from myself or the guys with me.

It isn't a given and everyone is different.

[tularetom]

10. Or scared shitless

The result would be the same.

[FarPoint]

14. I struggle with that angle...

Simply because he was not a rookie cop...

[HipChick]

38. Many cops are coward bullies

bolstered by their guns

[brush]

39. I think you're right

I'm really sick of these guys that that get scared and panic when confronted with what police work is all about — on the job sooner or later a policeman is going to be in a difficult situation and an officer needs to maintain his/her composure and use good judgement.

We need people on police forces whose first reaction is not to pull their gun and start firing.

The Ferguson incident did not have to happen/would not have happened if the officer would have kept his composure.

Even if the guy ran, how was a 6'4', 270 lb guy going to hide in that small town in broad daylight?

[SuperDutyTX]

3. I wouldn't call him a lousy shot.

I am fairly active in the shooting sports, and while at the range that would be poor performance, I wouldn't necessarily say the same in this case. Be it a legitimate shoot, or murder there is no question the officer's adrenaline was pumping and that tends to translate into poorer marksmanship.

[HipChick]

5. Well...this teen was his target practice for the day ....Mike Brown life mattered

ask this father..as he gets ready to lay his child to rest

[img][/img]

[ileus]

6. I blame the polygonal rifling.

[pinboy3niner]

9. I took that as subtle humor at first

Some sarcasm, perhaps. But I may be wrong.

[Paladin]

44. Gungeoneer humor is subtle to the point of being non-existent. (nt)

[pinboy3niner]

48. It would have been funny coming from Hoyt

Dripping with sasrcasm, like the smiley.

[Hoyt]

18. I guess that's Gungeoneer humor.

[mercuryblues]

8. then

when you factor in the RW talking point of how big Brown was (his size alone made him a threat) how could Wilson have missed at all?

yes, sarcasm.

[HereSince1628]

11. Bullets off target is a common feature of stories on police shootings.

Remember the two women shoot for being in a truck (of the wrong color) suspected to contain a rampage shooter in California? Many of bullet holes in the truck...the innocent women were hit a handful of times:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef017ee850259a970d-640wi

I'm not a gun owner, but I can readily imagine many a handful of factors that could contribute to inaccuracy.

IMO when the police get into high anxiety mode bad shit follows, from a whole lot of bullets off target to on target bullets shot at wrongly identified targets. If I remember correctly the two women delivering papers were suspects because they were in a small truck...but it wasn't even in the correctly colored truck.

I rather suspect that under anxiety and duress the accuracy of decisions to employ lethal force are no better than marksmanship.

[HipChick]

12. Lousy training is already evident in these cops

as is lousy communication

[Cha]

13. I know of at least one bullet that Darren Wilson fired into a building near by..

one of the female witnesses told that early on. And, that the police came and retrieved it. She mentioned how it was lucky no one was hit.

[Calista241]

15. 6 hits out of 11 rounds fired is not especially egregious

Lots of stuff happens once adrenaline hits your body. Remember the NYC cops that shot the guy trying to kill his boss, they fired 16 rounds in response and hit 8 different people including the shooter.

There are a lot of better ways to tell someone to get out of the street than with your gun though.

[badtoworse]

16. This question was discussed in the Gungeon

Some interesting points of view:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172151601

[WCLinolVir]

67. Good discussion.

[Schema Thing]

17. missed the first volley from the back

hit all on the second volley from the front.


intentional? just better after re-grouping?


a cop knows he doesn't want his bullets killing from the back.

[w4rma]

43. He hit with at least 2 from his initial volley of 7, since 6 wounds were found in the autopsy. (nt)

[n2doc]

19. Oh but Wilson was badly beaten with a crushed skull!

He's a super-cop who battled through the pain to bring down that huge drug-crazed robbery rapper thug who bull-rushed him!


(Did I get all the RW talking points in?)

[pinboy3niner]

21. Points deducted for failing to use 'thug'

You're slipping, man.

[n2doc]

22. sorry about that. Post edited to add more RW talking points n/t

[NYC_SKP]

36. You left out "drugs in his system", and Wilson was a "hero cop" doing his duty. (puke)

Somewhere there's a memo with bullet points that went out to all the RW radio hosts.

[uponit7771]

25. extra points for using urban somewhere in sentence

[jwirr]

37. You forgot to add that he helped watch over the body laying the street for four and on half hours.

If he was seriously injured wouldn't the other cops on the scene have sent him to the hospital immediately when they arrived on the scene?

[Vattel]

20. It was his broken eye socket that messed up his aim.

Oh wait, it wasn't broken after all.

[Lurks Often]

23. Most police aren't very good shots

A 55% hit ratio is on the high side

NYPD manages about 34%

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[uponit7771]

26. +1, So he falls in the norm but supposedly had a broken face... ok

[Lurks Often]

27. If he suffered injuries there will be medical documentation

and pretty much anybody who has real knowledge of if an injury was caused is prevented from discussing it under HIPAA law, so you probably won't see such a report, if it exists, until the trial or unless Wilson chooses to authorize it's release to the media, something I think the lawyer would advise against him doing.

Note HIPAA law does not prevent the police or the prosecutor from obtaining the report.

[uponit7771]

29. Not having a real police report right now should be the biggest red flag for the feds

[Lurks Often]

41. Maybe, I think Wilson's lawyer told him to not to say anything

which makes an incident report hard to write up. As for the St. Louis County's investigation, it's probably too soon for it to be complete.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Ferguson PD, St. Louis County PD and the prosecutor are first going to make sure everything is 100% correct before releasing more and second, they probably will wait for the most opportune time to release any information that they are not required by law to release sooner.

Probably after the Grand Jury comes back we will get more actual information as opposed to the rumors and speculation in the media.

[brush]

45. You might not have heard . . .

the alleged "eye socket injury" was a fake RW meme that has been discounted.

See the link below:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-contradict-fox-sources-claiming-darren-wilson-had-fractured-eye-socket/

[Lurks Often]

52. You read what you wanted to read in my post

I said IF he suffered injuries there will be medical documentation and that anybody who has real knowledge of IF an injury was caused, is prevented from discussing it with the media or public under HIPAA law, UNLESS Wilson authorizes it. IF there is medical documentation it probably won't come out until the trial, presuming the Grand Jury chooses to indict Wilson.

[brush]

55. "Real knowledge or not . . .

The "eye socket" injury fake news has already been blared to the media, thereby totally doing an end run around HIPAA law.

That was my point.

[Lurks Often]

57. We'll find out what, if any, injuries Wilson had

either at the trial or possibly after the Grand Jury is done in October.

There has been a lot of crap coming from the media, be it Wilson's alleged injuries or the initial reporting that Brown was shot in the back, something disproved by the medical examiner that the family hired.

I stopped believing the initial reporting of the media a long time ago, they're more interested in being the first with the latest bit of "information" then if it is actually accurate.

And for it to be "an end run around HIPAA law" presumes the person or persons who started the story had any actual knowledge.

[brush]

58. I think we're on the same side of the issue

But I'd have to say that whoever leaked the false eye socket injury knew it was false so they had some actual knowledge with their attempted deception.

[IdaBriggs]

24. Interesting thread - I used to think the Stormtroopers from Star Wars were just "bad shots."

Apparently the hit ratio was based on reality?



NOTE: This was not intended to be disrespectful to the victims of gun violence; it was an attempt at dark humor. If it failed, please accept my apologies. If it made you smile, well, yeah!

[VScott]

33. Actually, Stromtroopers were pretty good shots,

These blast points — too accurate for sandpeople. Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.”

-- Obi-Wan Kenobi

[NightWatcher]

28. If Brown was so close as to be a threat to the cop, he should've done better than 50%

(I know it was +50% but you know what I mean)

If he were so close that the cop had to do it to save his own life, he should have shot better. This adds to evidence that the cop did not have to shoot.

[jwirr]

30. I think the story about the door hitting him in the head when he pushed it so hard it rebounded off

of Michael Brown and hit him is looking more reasonable all the time. He got hit by the door HE pushed open too fast and gets mad. Then unloads his gun into Michael Brown who is standing there with his hands up. Rage - blind rage.

[Lex]

40. I thought this sounded truthful too.

nt

[riverwalker]

62. this, yes n/t

[samsingh]

32. that is what it sounds like

[L0oniX]

35. 2 head shots ...requires some skill ....and intent!

[Lurks Often]

51. You presume he was aiming for the head

the shots indicated in the Baden autopsy diagram suggest a successive string shots each higher and to the right of the prior one, consistent with the recoil of a semi-automatic handgun in rapid fire.

[L0oniX]

61. ...shot pattern consistent with an untrained pig?

I thought pigs were supposed to pass tests on the firing range. As far as I know they are trained to shoot at the torso or largest target.

[Lurks Often]

70. Depends on the department

Firing 50 rounds at 15 yards once or twice a year under near ideal conditions is hardly a stringent test, especially when they don't have to score 100%.

Just because they are supposed to aim for the torso doesn't mean they are going to hit the target. Look at the idiots in LA that fired 100+ rounds at the pickup truck the two women were driving during the Dorner incident. They found bullets in the truck and many of the surrounding houses.

[WCLinolVir]

65. That too is common with an automatic fire in a stress situation.

As was explained to me, people who are not well trained/experienced will leave their finger on the trigger intentionally or not, and empty the gun.

[Lurks Often]

71. Shoot until the threat stops is the current standard

among police departments and police aren't known for being the best shots in the world in the first place.

[Avalux]

42. The shots that didn't hit Brown could have hurt or killed someone else too.

11 shots? What the hell? Wilson's actions, from what we've been told, are incredibly horrifying and irresponsible all the way around. It seems to me he got out of his car and just started shooting at Brown who was retreating, not caring if anyone else was in the way, not caring about ANYTHING except stopping Brown....who did what exactly?

It is an outrage Wilson has not been arrested. It is an outrage he is STILL being paid while on vacation. It is an outrage he is being portrayed as a hero of some sort while money pours in to help him.

The part of this that has really affected me, is the video of Brown lying in the street while Wilson paces around, never ONCE bending down to check on Brown or trying to help him. Allowing Brown's body to remain in the street for hours as if he were an animal. And now, Brown is being reduced to that by the media and law enforcement, in an attempt to justify Wilson's actions.

[Cosmocat]

59. from moment one the story is implausible

what police officer lets someone who is a threat reach into their vehicle like that?

That is simple common sense and frankly has to be an aspect of their training.

You don't stop your vehicle close enough to someone who is a thread for them to get into it before you can get out and get yourself in a position to effectively confront them.

SOMEHOW, SOME WAY, Wilson did something at the outset that caused this situation to play out the way it did.

It is implausible to think someone would try to reach into a police car to grab an unholstered gun in the first place, but the story is that Brown did this, then stopped and started to run away before turning back around and "charging" Wilson.

REALLY?

[Matrosov]

46. It's surprising that six hit

Between many police officers training only once a year and the adrenaline in Wilson's system, six hits out of eleven shots is actually good accuracy.

There have been plenty of shootings where officers emptied their entire magazines (17 rounds for the most popular Glocks) and hit their target only once or twice.

[former9thward]

49. I am afraid you have watched too many tv shows.

Handguns are very inaccurate when fired under stressful situations. The only accurate shooters are actors in the movies. I once represented a client who was placed in a squad car and the cop missed finding a gun on him. My client, in the back seat, got his gun out and cocked it. That sound alerted the cop in the front seat and he pulled his gun. They both began firing at each other in the car. They both emptied their guns firing at each other. Neither was hit.

This is why I always recommend a shotgun if someone is interested in a weapon for home defense.

[JEB]

50. Emptied or nearly emptied the clip.

Homed in on his target as he shot. Two to the head. Execution.

[HipChick]

53. Yes..

[Triple_Threat]

69. Magazine....

[MineralMan]

56. Most police officers are not expert marksmen with a pistol.

Accurate pistol shooting is very difficult and requires very steady hands and a calm physical demeanor for real accuracy. That's why most police involved shootings use up lots of ammunition with few actual hits on the person who is the target. In a field situation, a 50% accuracy rate is not bad, really.

The question is, for me, should any shots at all have been fired in Ferguson? My answer is a resounding NO! There should have been no shooting at all. There was no reason for shooting at Michael Brown.

[Lee-Lee]

60. Let me take you under extreme stress

And let you try and hit a moving target, and you get no warning about when it is going down over the course of a day.

[riqster]

64. One cute trick used in my weapons training...

Drop a string of firecrackers behind the shooters and start screaming "There, there, that's him!!! That's him!!!!"

It was a way to teach we dumb high school hicks about how stress affects your accuracy. Effective lesson, it was. All six of us shot for shit, after having scored very well on plain paper targets in "normal" conditions.

[WCLinolVir]

66. He murdered him in rage because only six hit the target? Is that an intended correlation?

He could have shot the kid without rage, fear alone would have done it along with poor training and stress. Do you know most cops don't pull their weapon over the course of their career? But I would like to know if he had a taser and why wasn't one used.