And yet another DU treasure gone :(

[ChisolmTrailDem]

I've always enjoyed your input and hope you'll find DU a place you can come back to some day. Thank you for your coverage of the Mike Brown story and for all of your contributions here for the past 11 years.

Take care of yourself, bigtree. You will be missed.

ETA: OOPS!! This was supposed to be a reply to bigtree's farewell post. Oh well, I guess I'll just leave it because bigtree deserves it. I really should at least have a coffee and wake up a little better before attempting to post, lol. Peace to you, bigtree, if you're watching.

[MohRokTah]

1. What happened?

Please, no! What happened?

[octoberlib]

2. This

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025449180

[CTyankee]

3. what made him decide to leave?

did something bad happen to him here?

I just wonder because if DU sometimes gets me mad I just get up and leave the computer and do something else for a while. I guess I would feel differently if I were the target on relentless attacks but I didn't see any concerted effort against bigtree. Of course, I have been away for a couple of weeks...

[octoberlib]

4. was going to post a link to an OP he posted last night explaining in detail but

he deleted it. He's basically fed up with DU. The negative stories get all the attention and positive stories about how we can change things sink. I think a lot of it's human nature. It's the same reason news stations get higher ratings during catastrophies.

[CTyankee]

13. well, I get it...sometimes you think it's not worth the effort to keep beating a dead horse...

better to put your efforts elsewhere and try to make a difference there.

But I do think that DU has its cycles, just like the seasons, and sometimes things are ho hum and sometimes they burn brightly. Perhaps that's just a normal cycle, but I understand that it can be infuriating...

[RKP5637]

106. Much like the reason Fox News survives, they harp on negatives and impeding

catastrophes which captivates the human mind. ... probably primordial linked to fight or flight and survival.

[ReRe]

113. I think it was what happened...

... with the following thread when the turd-wayers pounced on an innocent post by someone who doesn't post very often and who had no idea that it would get the reaction it did. Someone in the thread referred to Cornell West in a racist way and I believe when bigtree read the thread it broke his heart. I don't think he posted to the thread. Are you sure you want to see it? Here goes: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025442878

[CTyankee]

137. Interesting. The contrast between his thoughtful post in this thread and so many of the

others is stark. Bigtree thought out his arguments thorougly and stated them well, the mark of a learned mind.

[Mojorabbit]

159. +100 nt

[Warpy]

161. I didn't know him well but I enjoyed his posts

and never had an opportunity to cross swords with him, although I vaguely remember posting a minor quibble and labeling it as such.

He will definitely be missed.

[villager]

5. Almost as if by design -- making the "Underground" another 3rd Way/Center-right mouthpiece

...as any actual progressive voice is driven away...

[wyldwolf]

6. yes, we've been plotting this from our secret OVERground headquarters

[villager]

7. ...each of them falling in line posting tiresome, yet endless, snark....

n/t

[wyldwolf]

8. We get text alerts when it's our turn to post the snark

And actually, here's a little secret - we're on someone's payroll AND we share DU usernames. The 'wyldwolf' you're talking to now may not be the one who responds when the second shift ends.

[villager]

9. ...worry their snark like a little bone, which they think is both a) conversational

... and b) "humorous," when, of course it is miles away from being either.

[wyldwolf]

10. psst! It's designed to get the response it's getting right now!

See, you're spending precious time just waiting to rebut my replies instead of doing something useful. But I AM doing something useful. I'm keeping YOU from doing something useful.

[villager]

11. ...many of their posts, though, are marvels of total projection

so there is that.

[wyldwolf]

14. you're just not getting it

(sigh) but never fear, the nefarious plan is working. I mean, look at Hillary's poll numbers? She'd beat Warren even in Massachusetts!

[Union Scribe]

71. And they're sooo angry

This thread is full of enough examples to write a thesis on.

[villager]

77. Man, I know what you mean. You'd think if they were content in their ideals, they'd be less furious

At least on a board with ostensibly like-minded "discusees!"

[WillyT]

15. Yep... These Are The People That Think Their Cruelty Is Hilarious...

It's a disturbing mindset...

[villager]

19. Exactly, WillyT. They're in love with "the taunt," not discussion

... and the goals of their taunting are not "give and take," or to learn anything, or to "hear," but something else entirely.

[wyldwolf]

26. it's in response to the playground mentality people like you exhibit

You're the kid who continuously hits kids on the playground. Even bigger kids. One day one of those kids turns around and pops you in the mouth. You run away crying, in total shock that someone dared hit you back. And then you flat out deny you hit first even though everyone around you saw that you did. The start of this subthread is a great example.

But guess what? I'm not worried about hurting your tender little feelings. If you can't play nice on the swingsets, climb back into your bubble or get used to getting back what you give.

[WillyT]

39. Thanks For Proving My Point... Project Much ???

[wyldwolf]

42. the point was proven with post #5, of which you vehemently agreed with.

Point made.

See? Your type hits first, then denies doing it even though everyone can see you did.

[HangOnKids]

53. Playground Mentality?

You sound quite familiar with that. Poor thing.

[wyldwolf]

57. Playground mentality?

Yeah, I am familiar with it after hanging our with kids like you. Poor thing.

[HangOnKids]

62. Sorry Wolfie You Could Never Hang Out Or "Our" As You Posted With Me

Cool kids don't mess around with nonsense. Be kind to yourself and take a hike.

[SidDithers]

163. Well, someone took a hike...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=278975&sub=trans

Sid

[Union Scribe]

164. Yet somehow the person who called West a racial slur is still here.

How about that.

[Kingofalldems]

165. Happy now?

[SidDithers]

166. Yup...

You?

Sid

[Kingofalldems]

167. No I'm not happy at all.

But of course you won't be able to post about her in MIRT anymore. Too bad.

[SidDithers]

169. You shouldn't be sad for too long...

she'll probably be back soon, again.

Sid

[morningfog]

98. You are just rude.

[snooper2]

51. We are all feline

[A Simple Game]

20. I don't know why I thought of her but maybe it's because you sound like you may know.

What ever happened to ProSense? I checked her profile and she hasn't posted since July 9th.

[wyldwolf]

45. she was promoted up the policy department

Now many of the post here by other deep cover operative were actually written by her.

[Damansarajaya]

86. Because nothing says, "I care" like demeaning

people's core issues with ridicule and scorn.

You might ask yourself the simple question of whether you're making DU a better place or whether you're making it suck?

[MADem]

16. You seem to have a handle on that "snark" stuff--the only members of the Democratic Party

you seem to be able to tolerate are those who think exactly like you.

You really should spend more time touting your own views and less time bashing and trashing the views of other Democrats--who, like it or not, ARE welcome here at "DEMOCRATIC" Underground.

[villager]

21. "...you seem to be able to tolerate are those who think exactly like you..."

Marvels of total projection.

[MADem]

28. Glad you're starting to see what I mean--you are, indeed, a marvel.

I think all candidates with a D after their name should be heard from and are entitled to supporters here.

You? Not so much.

[villager]

30. Thanks for bearing out my theses in spades, MADem!

The prooftexts are appreciated!

[MADem]

38. Yes, posts like this do so much to bring Democrats together....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024985887#post29

That mirror shows an interesting view, doesn't it?

[villager]

50. Wow -- flattered that you think I'm worth searching out! So -- let's actually disuss, then.

No barbs, no snark-posing-as-"discussion."

You clearly love being a 3rd Way Dem. What draws you to those positions more than being further on the left?

I am genuinely curious.

Let's be exemplars, and talk about it!

[MADem]

70. I didn't have to look very hard. You're on this topic a lot. You're not the only one who engages

in that sort of relentlessly unhelpful rhetoric, not by a long shot, nor are you the most prolific, either, but you do seem to take joy in it. So don't be flattered, it's just easy pickings. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024918443#post1

And now, you're trying to change the subject with this kind of deflection:

You clearly love being a 3rd Way Dem. What draws you to those positions more than being further on the left?


I campaigned and voted for Elizabeth Warren--is she a "Third Way Dem?" Do I have to have cheered for the failed and idiotically quixotic Dennis "Fauxsnooze" Kucinich wastes-of-money campaigns to not be painted with your Third Way brush? Is "pragmatic" a synonym for "Third Way?"

You aren't curious at all--you just want to change the subject by making what you regard as an "accusatory" comment about me.

I vote for candidates who can do the job and who can WIN the election so they can do the job. That's all you need to know about me.

I think people who don't like the candidates on offer should spend more time telling us why alternatives are a good choice, and less time tearing down/dividing. Problem is, a lot of people touting these fantasy "dream" candidates don't know a damn thing about their backgrounds or voting records. When they find out that their heroes have the nerve to be "pragmatists" as well, they go back to tearing down the other guy(s). It's easier than reconciling realities, I guess.

[villager]

74. Wow! I am practically a poster on your bedroom wall! (So to speak!)

But seriously, your out-of-context links aside -- i.e., carefully ignoring the overall threads or subthreads those comments appear in -- I do stand by my disagreements with so-called "third way" ideology, which is really, in my opinion, just a way of selling Republican ideals to the rest of us.

You plainly disagree.

Let's discuss!

[MADem]

83. Well, not sure what that comment was about. My links were right on point, not OOC.

Mean is mean. Personal is personal. Insults are insults.

Anyone can make this sort of argument about political ideologies:

"Well X is just Y in a different wrapper"

but a good debater can do it without name calling. The people who lash out and call people here "Third Wayers" (and have painted the term as an equivalent of "child molester&quot don't seem to be able to do that. They're ALL about the personal insult, and that insult is directed at posters here based on the DEMOCRATIC candidates they support.

I think it's just a tiresome and wrong approach. I don't think I'm the only one who is sick of it.

[villager]

90. Then let's have a good debate! Come on!

I agree about the name calling -- though I don't name call, or harass, individuals. I do respond to bullying snark, because it needs to be stood up to.

And yes, I do take those mild potshots at an ideology -- especially because I think so-called "Third Way" policies are simply recycled failed Republican policies.

And at this point -- environmentally, economically -- very dangerous policies to be recycling in the first place. ("third place?" )

So -- let's discuss!

C'mon!

[MADem]

95. I certainly do not want to appear to be rude, but based on your history of posts on this board,

I don't think we have anything to discuss. Your comments have already spoken for themselves.

[villager]

97. So -- you refuse to have the kind of discussion you say you long for?

[MADem]

107. Let's not affect confusion, now. Your position is no secret.

I've no need of more heat/no light. There's just no purpose to such a conversation. It would be like watching a rerun of a tennis match. The score doesn't change.

That's not the point of the subthread, though, anyway. The point of the subthread is to place the departure of a DUer in the context of generic rudeness on the board. And sure, there's plenty of that to go around.

My hope is that we can all do better. I won't hold my breath, but I will hold out hope.

[villager]

116. You're already mellowing -- we've just broached such a discussion below!

You can exhale!

[Number23]

148. Well said

And I'm sorry, but that hidden post in this thread was beautiful.

[MADem]

151. I don't think you should be sorry!!!

The incivility came before that HIDE, and the post that was hidden was a response to that incivility.

I think when someone is insulted, a response in kind can be seen as justified. I don't understand why the post that precipitated that HIDE wasn't hidden as well.

[stevenleser]

110. Right, because BOGgers NEVER have snark directed at them...

[rhett o rick]

156. Yes we know about the offsite meeting place for the bullies of DU. nm

[MADem]

12. It's divisive posts like yours that are a big part of the problem. The constant 3rd Way snark gets

old. I think a lot of people forget that DU was founded because one of those "evil 3rd Wayers" got denied the presidency that he WON. So, pretending that those 3rd Wayers are NOT a part of a Big Tent Democratic Party is just, well, wrong. This website was FOUNDED on a loss by a 3rd Wayer. It's kind of amusing that people screeching about the "3rd Way" manage to FORGET that.

There are all kinds of Democrats, and this is Democratic (not "Just MY WING of the Party) Underground.

Live and let live. Say your piece without shitting on others.

Enough with the "Anyone who doesn't think like MEEEEEEEE sucks!!!!!!!" attitude. If you "vote for Democrats" you should be welcome here.

Not very helpful commentary--you should consider deleting.

[wyldwolf]

17. From a 2002 DU 'about' page

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020123013548/http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

[Autumn]

27. Even Democrats who don't like Hillary and don't want to vote for her are welcome here

we all fall in line come election time but we are allowed to say so at this time. .

[wyldwolf]

29. Even Dems who don't hang the progressive savior of the week's poster on the walls to kiss goodnight

[Autumn]

32. No one has done that except for maybe in your mind.

Same shit different election.

[MADem]

31. Nothing wrong with disliking a candidate, but insulting her supporters is where the line should be

drawn.

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen here. People get called dumbass names like "3rd Wayer"--at a website that was created to PROTEST the theft of an election from ..... a 3rd Wayer.

So, yeah, whatever.

[Autumn]

37. You know that works both ways. Her supporters have no problem with insulting other posters.

The internet has opened the eyes of a lot of Democrats. The actions and policies of our elected Democrats are no longer a blurb to be glossed over, they are there for people to dig into and understand.

[MADem]

41. I haven't seen it. In fact, I think most people like the alternative candidates as well.

They just have a difference of opinion as to who will be likely to be successful in a Presidential bid. I guess here, at DEMOCRATIC Underground, it's a crime to be pragmatic.

I've never seen an HRC supporter "cast the first stone." It's always the "Anti" crowd, and they name call with the tired old "Third Way" foolishness. They goad, they bait, and they behave badly.

It's lather, rinse, repeat--to the point that I wonder if some of them aren't trolls.

[Autumn]

46. You and I will disagree on that because some of us have an entirely different perception

and experience. We also wonder if some of her supporters aren't trolls.

[MADem]

52. And that is the point--some of us have an entirely different perception and experience.

What constitutes "liberal" in Alabama might be viewed as "conservative" in Massachusetts.

Should I shit on that Alabama liberal, who will vote for the Democratic nominee just like I will, because he or she is to my right on some issues? Or should I have a civil conversation with that person, understand their political reality, and not toss snarky, childish insults at the person?

I'm in favor of civil discussions--not name calling. Way too many people who claim the "liberal" and "progressive" mantles here behave poorly. They snark, they insult, and they name-call. I'm not saying they're the only ones at fault, but more often than not, they initiate the hatefest threads. Using the frequently maligned SECSTATE Clinton as an example, do a search and see who starts the most threads, and see how many of those threads are snark and insults and childish name calling exercises.

People get sick of it.

[Autumn]

56. Yes people get sick of it, on both sides. n/t

[still_one]

72. From you I have no doubt, but there are others who have quite boldly come out and said they will

"never vote for Hillary if she is the Democratic nominee"

I suspect that probably comprises 5 % of DU, but sometimes they get the most attention

[Autumn]

139. Yeah I have seen that but I just figure that it's just disgust and frustration

coming out. I feel that way a lot. But I've never missed an election yet. I can't. Even if I wanted to I won't stay home and I'm not about to vote for a republican.

But it's a damn disgrace that one has to hold their nose to vote for the Democrat because they have so much in common with the fucking republicans. People are hurting, they have been for years. Whens the last time Obama gave a flying fuck about the poor? You think Hillary ( and I love and respect her for most of what she has done )gives a fuck about the poor? Meanwhile our middle class in sliding down into the poor class. Where the fuck are the poor going? This can not continue, the banks and wall street may be fine and the middle class may have the credit cards to stay treading water but the rest of us? We get more of the same we are fucked. People are at the end of their ropes and guess what? There's no knot to hold on to.

We can do better, we deserve better and the only way to do it is to hold the Democrats accountable and if that means they don't get someones vote because they can't bring themselves to go against their values and morals and vote for that Democrats well I am sure as hell not going to criticize them. I will hold that Democrat who thinks they don't have to earn that vote accountable, not the person using the only voice they have.

[still_one]

144. I hear you. I do not think those that say they will never vote for Hillary, will vote republican

either though, however, with the polarity and the divisions that exist along with voter suppression activities, every vote counts

I agree with you sentiments though

[A Simple Game]

33. Then there is the first line of the mission statement.

Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by:

My god the first line! Now why would they stick that into the mission statement? I mean the mission statement is supposed to mean something! How could they do that to us? There are even other nasty bits about supporting the most liberal candidate, it's hard to even think about it.

And this also from the mission statement:

After more than a decade online, Democratic Underground still hosts the most active liberal discussion board on the Internet.

But what really burn me is this:

we have no affiliation with the Democratic Party

Oh, that bit you quoted, must be they dropped it when they updated, I couldn't find it on the about page just now.

[wyldwolf]

40. then there is the insinuation you're making about the word 'liberal.'

I mean, my Darwin! The site was created in protest for a 3rd Way Democrat who was cheated out of the presidency. Do you think the admins of this site think Al Gore IS NOT a liberal? LOL

Yes, the 'About' page has changed numerous times in the past 13 years or so. But today, these lines stick out:

Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by...
Helping elect more Democrats to political office at all levels of American government!! Woo hoo!

[A Simple Game]

143. I am making insinuations about the word liberal? How does that work?

Perhaps you are saying the author(s) of the mission statement didn't know what they were saying when they wrote it? I assure you I was not one of the authors so had no say in what the mission statement says.

You do understand the importance of a mission statement don't you? People usually pick the words they use very carefully. and the placement often has meaning. The word liberal is prominent and used often.

I don't see the words moderate or conservative used anywhere. Oh, that's right, they took that all stripes wording out, didn't they. Good thing you saved a 2002 copy.

DU has evolved, try to keep up.

[MADem]

44. You might want to have a look-see at what constitutes "politically liberal" in, say, Mississippi.

Or Tennessee. Or South Dakota.

Then come back and re-calibrate, without using YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION of "liberal."

Where you sit can affect where you stand.

[A Simple Game]

145. The word liberal has a meaning, perhaps you could ask the owners of the site

what that might be, they picked the word, not me. Don't feel bad, you aren't the only one to confuse me with one of the authors of the mission statement.

Personally I like these definitions from Dictionary.com :http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal?s=t
adjective
3.of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism, especially the freedom of the individual and governmental guarantees of individual rights and liberties.
4.favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5.favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression:
a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
7.free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.

There is much more, I trimmed it for fair usage and such, you should check it out, lots of good meanings. Check out number 8, it's a good one. There are also some nouns!

Sorry no mention about where you live. Perhaps you are thinking about people that call themselves liberals but really aren't?

[MADem]

146. Perhaps you might want to apply CONTEXT to this conversation, and understand that

Republicans in Mississippi don't really give a shit what your little dictionary says. They regard anyone with a (D) after their name to be one of those liberals, and they don't like 'em.

The TOS states that the goal here is electing more Democrats and fewer Republicans to public office. It doesn't say elect more "LIBERAL enough to suit A Simple Game" Democrats, but if you think the admins are getting that far down in the weeds and you want to prove it, you go on and ask 'em.

I'd say my contextual regard for that "liberal" word wins the day, here--not your dictionary snark or your classically rude last sentence.

Have one of those nice days, now.

[A Simple Game]

150. Let's see go with a Mississippi Republicans definition of liberal or

a dictionary definition of liberal? Tough choice, let me think about it.

And thanks, I will have a nice day.

[villager]

54. Funny, the cherrypicking, ain't it? Like ignoring the "Undergound" after "Democratic"

n/t

[wyldwolf]

66. ah, see, you just showed you complete lack of knowledge on what the 'underground' means here

It was a play on the war resistance term. Had nada to do with ideology beyond the Democratic party and was established to hit back at Republicans.

I know you envision it being some sort of far left progressive haven, but that isn't why it was established.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010219071508/http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

[villager]

68. "Had nada to do with ideology..."

Well certainly not for some.

[wyldwolf]

69. certainly not for the founders of the site

[MADem]

85. Democrats were "UNDERGROUND" after the (s)election of Bush.

And the site was founded to protest the election theft from that famous third wayer, Al Gore.

Let's not reinvent history, now.

[villager]

87. Hopefully standing for policies different than Bush's?

indeed, let's let history speak for itself!

[MADem]

88. You can read the manifesto thoughtfully posted here as easily as I can. nt

[villager]

91. Not really an answer, of course, but o.k.

[MADem]

94. Well, it IS an answer, because if you don't go back to the beginning of DU, back to those

early days when the website was a real free for all and there weren't very many forums (there used to be a "lobby" IIRC), you can't appreciate what the POV was that caused this place to be created.

Bottom line: It's a BIG TENT.

Get used to it.

[villager]

99. no, it's your interpretation. But it is a big tent!

So you gracefully accept positions and ideologies to the left of yours, then, one assumes?

[MADem]

101. Huh? Don't move those goalposts, now....

Why would I "gracefully accept positions and ideologies" from any corner that I don't support?

Let's not lose the bubble here--this isn't about where you stand in that BIG TENT; I can find something to like about anyone who VOTES FOR DEMOCRATS--it's about name-calling and insulting people who aren't standing in the same wing of the tent you're in.

The party doesn't fly on one wing. People who snark at, and shit on, Democrats here would do well to remember that.

[villager]

103. Well, I agree -- no one should be personally insulted

Except perhaps Nazis, racists, the Koch Brothers, and about half of the U.S. Senate!

It would be interesting to see how you perceive those two wings of the Democratic party, and what you like about each, in terms of how it contributes to the whole.

[MADem]

111. As I have said, what constitutes "liberal" in Mississippi is not what constitutes "liberal" in

Massachusetts.

I think, before people mock, goad, bait or deride others for being "insufficiently liberal," they might want to walk a mile in their shoes.

It's easy to DEMAND that a very conservative state's Democratic candidates hew to every plank of the party platform but it's hard as hell to see those candidates actually elected.

I believe in cutting the cloth according to the measure. That's how we win.

[villager]

115. Well, okay, those are interesting points.

Nonetheless, climate change will affect Blue Dog Dems just as much.

Outsourcing and union-busting will affect states like Mississippi even more.

But there is room for a lively discussion...

[MADem]

121. And in Mississippi, I imagine that the successful Democratic candidate will find a way to

thread those needles to warm a seat on the Hill.

If we don't control Congress, we can't get laws passed in amelioration of climate change or any other issue of import to our team. Whips and leaders aren't just beauty contest winners--they have a role to play. They know how to count votes, make deals and withhold re-election support, if needs must. All that is part and parcel of the sausage-making process, too.

Now that's some pragmatism.

[villager]

125. But we did control Congress, and we squandered the moment

My problem is that center/right Dems -- who we used to call "Republicans" way back when -- will never "lead" on such issues as climate change, extinction, outsourcing, income gaps, et al.

Because they can't. Not only ideologically, but because of who the sponsors are of their political careers.

The ultimate pragmatism will be saving the biosphere and staving off extinction. But I don't see that being prioritized.

(And btw, though I suspect we may continue to disagree on these things -- thanks for the discussion! Y'see!? )

[MADem]

126. We never "controlled" Congress. We had a barebones majority, not a mandate.

We need a mandate.

[villager]

128. Well, we never "control" it like the other side does, even when they're in the minority

There is too much kowtowing, too much fear of ruffling feathers (and sponsors), etc.

Since we both agree on this notion of a transformational mandate, I wonder what it would look like from our perspectives?

We've had Democratic majorities before, to little avail.

I wonder if it means knocking off more incumbents (R. & D. alike) with someone to the left? (By which I mean, just to be clear, unmistakable support for necessary environmental and labor issues -- and I think the other social issues would follow in that wake).

I also fear -- or have resigned myself to -- the idea that such an electoral transformation won't be possible, given how the "fix" is so deeply in -- unless it comes in the wake of some calamity.

And the danger there, of course, is that the far right would exploit it better.

[MADem]

129. They "control" it by gridlocking. They are the party of NO.

We need a veto proof majority in both houses.

[villager]

130. That would be the ideal. And it would certainly lead to clarity about what the Dems finally,

and truly stand for.

But I also think we need to cotton to "NO" ourselves a lot more, instead of going-along-to-get-along with the other side's constant array of nation-destroying initiatives.

[greatauntoftriplets]

100. I was here in early 2001 and you are correct.

[MADem]

104. I was here on the 2nd day of operation, and I was THRILLED to find the joint!

I signed up but rarely posted--I read voraciously, though. I wasn't in a position at the time where opining was a good idea.

Then I changed emails, my computer crashed, I forgot my password, and had to begin again!

[greatauntoftriplets]

105. LOL, it was months before I posted.

At the time, I didn't have a computer at home and work frowned on things like DU. I eventually made up for lost time.

[MADem]

114. Yeah--those work computers were well-monitored where I was at, too!! nt

[OilemFirchen]

122. "... we have no affiliation with the Democratic Party"...

is not a "mission" statement. It's a disclaimer.

Get the difference?

[A Simple Game]

142. You may be right, but you would have to take it up with whoever

wrote it because it is under the Mission Statement heading. Sorry I can't help you I didn't write it.

But thanks for pointing out that it is a disclaimer, others here seem to think DU is part of the Democratic Party.

[MADem]

152. +1 nt

[hamsterjill]

35. I could not have said it better myself!

Any and all respectful opinions and discussions should be a part of DU.

I almost left myself last week. I joined in 2004, and I've never seen DU get as nasty as it did for a few days about a week ago. I backed away, took a second look and decided that I wasn't going to allow the few that I was infuriated with to keep me from participating in a forum that I've enjoyed for ten years.

There are some posters who, when they do not share an opinion, follow other posters around from thread to thread trying to intimidate those that dare to disagree to stop posting.

This is a DISCUSSION thread. There are invariably going to be differences of opinion. That's what it's all about. But as long as those differences can be discussed reasonably and respectfully, then they should be allowed.

It's how we, humans, LEARN things.

[Bobbie Jo]

47. Well said. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. Funny how ...

calling people on their B.S. is "projection", huh?

Enough with the "Anyone who doesn't think like MEEEEEEEE sucks!!!!!!!" attitude. If you "vote for Democrats" you should be welcome here.

Exactly ... Well said.

[Logical]

34. Link to the most extreme right wing post you have seen....

From a poster who has been here 6 months.

[sabrina 1]

80. Yes, what made it interesting were those who CARED about ISSUES. Now it's hard

find anything that deals directly with important issues, which is why it's sad when someone like this who actually DOES, is driven away, by what someone correctly called in his thread, 'hyper-partisanship'. What THAT does is try to excuse even the worst violations of our Civil Rights, drone killings and even torture, NSA spying, not to mention 'putting SS on the table'. We are given the most INANE reasons for all this NOW while back in the Bush era these were issues that united almost every Democratic voter and a whole lot of Independents.

When you spend your time arguing against the 'excuses' rather than discussing how to change things for the better, it does become boring after a while.

[villager]

123. Which is odd, Sabrina, since it's those focused almost exclusively on "electability"

...rather than our precarious state of affairs in this shredded "republic," who always bandy the "partisanship" charge the most....

[JEB]

172. Exactly right.

I'm not a Democrat because it's a cool club. I went from Independent to Democrat because I cared about issues. I will not support Democrats that fail to represent my views on too many issues. I am very disappointed that there has been no accountability for torture carried out in my name as a US citizen. It is wrong, illegal and bad for the country. Democrats need to stop accommodating the GOP and corporate interest. Democrats are supposed to represent working people not rich people and corporations. I candidates can't or won't do that they will not get my vote no matter what letter is after their name.

[sabrina 1]

174. You're far from alone in those views. I don't know what exactly they think they will accomplish

by dismissing voters' concerns, but the reality is, they are alienating more and more people by allowing their 'followers' to attack anyone who even dares to question, eg, why torturers have not been held accountable, and worse the president we supported, making excuses for torturers.

[cwydro]

18. Whomever it might be -

I find GBCW posts tiresome.

Sorry. The person always returns - usually within the week.

Somebody should do a spreadsheet on it.

[rhett o rick]

155. Sadly your post shows the empathy that most likely drives off good people.

Do the spreadsheet yourself and let me know when you're done.

[cbayer]

22. Sometimes mistakes happen for a reason and this was a good one.

bigtree has been a wonderful asset to this site for a long time.

I hope there are bright places to stop in the road ahead and that you will come back to visit us form time to time.

[nolabear]

23. *sigh*

I don't even know what to say anymore. Except, maybe, I get it. Fare thee well, bigtree.

[polly7]

24. Very sad.

I wish him all the best and hope he continues to spread his amazing writing and insights to others it will affect, too.

[riderinthestorm]

25. I've been a member here since 2005, lurked for 2 years before that, and seen a lot of GBCW posts

And really? DU isn't that much different than it ever used to be. Back then the mods kicked out the trolls but MIRT, the mods and the jury system are doing an okay job too. New voices come and add to the discussion and I think its interesting. Change is a fact of life.

When I first came to DU many years ago, the same GBCW posts were occurring then with "long time" treasured DU voices leaving because of the awful tone and tenor of the discussions in GD (mostly). It seems to me that most posters who leave in a flaming huff suffer from outrage fatique and lash out here. Some take a break and when they've regained their equilibrium, they return.

I think its a disservice to blame the "new" tone in GD (with the implied insinuation that new DUers are shit). Its always been a bit of a brawl here. If a DUer can't take the heat, go to Good Reads and calm down. Or go to the lounge and have a laugh.

Ending a long spell here by throwing a clusterbomb at everyone is petty and small imho. I feel badly for bigtree and all the other "treasures" who got so wound up they lost their sense of perspective.

[KittyWampus]

36. Exactly, before Ferguson Bigtree posted OP's constantly expressing outrage bla bla bla

And I've posted several times about how DU doesn't really change.

What changes is the capacity some DU'ers have for tolerating any difference of opinion.

A lot of people come to expect complete agreement with their viewpoints on everything.

And a lot of the people who want total agreement are ironically the most likely to label others as "Authoritarian".

[Autumn]

43. I think that bigtree was bothered that a prominent AA was slyly called a "coon" by another DUer

It doesn't get more insulting and disgusting than that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5446086

I think that when someone feels comfortable doing that that's a big fucking change in DU.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

55. Hi Autumn, I missed this. Add it to the reasons I cited below for bigtree's departure, which

he has previously stated, that violence and vitriol get all the attention while important posts languish and fall out of sight.

[leftstreet]

60. ...

Good Godz! I didn't see that

[KittyWampus]

73. One stupid post out of tens of thousands per week sends a DU'er out the door?

Not buying it.

That post was deleted, was it not?

A lot of us had to tolerate Obama being called a "piece of shit used car salesman". That was NOT deleted.

[deurbano]

117. Calling Obama a "coon" would have been deleted. (Different history with that word.)

Also, I think it would have gotten the offending poster banned. (I'm not sure how the system works for banning... but I would think that would qualify.)

[still_one]

81. DU has changed significantly. What would before get hidden, not only languages like your example,

but obvious personal attacks, now all depends on a jury system, that some on a jury believe personal attacks are simply an expression of free speech, that can be countered by an appropriate rebuttal.

It would have never been tolerated when moderators were assumed that responsibility, and followed the rules of the forum to the letter.

I have no doubt that one of the reasons that system was disbanded was because it was probably getting more difficult to find moderators who had the time.

Still, civility was more prevalent than it is today, and I suspect a large part of that is due to the jury system

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. I completely missed that post ...

WOW!

[Autumn]

135. I don't care that it was aimed at Mr West, it could have been aimed at Michael Steele

and it would still be wrong. It's unacceptable.

[1StrongBlackMan]

138. Absolutely ...

Sometimes people get so comfortable that they forget to whom they are speaking.

[Autumn]

140. Had I ever used a term like that my 98 pound southern raised Mama would

have knocked my ass flying across the room and dared me to get back up. There is no reason for that.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

49. Good points, but not why bigtree left.

He left because he saw an inequity in how posts are received. His words were that violence and vitriol sells on DU and gets traction whereas other really good stuff sinks out of sight. I know what he means because I've tested the theory myself. When I'm being an asshole, I can stay busy all day on DU. But when I post something substantive and important, people don't care. I've found that when I'm bored I can post something assholish and I'll be busy the rest of the day. But, work on a post for hours about something important, like resource depletion or climate change, or about the 2014 mid-terms, and it's like my post doesn't exist.

bigtree and I have had our run-ins but he is a poster that I have long admired here and, despite your comments to the contrary, I have considered him one of DU's best assets. I will miss him, even if you and other will not.

[villager]

58. It's true -- assholery sells well here, alas.

And it is always backed up by other assholery.

Like the rest of the internet!

Nothing very "underground" about any of that...

[riderinthestorm]

61. Vitriol thrives in GD same as it ever has. Always.

Thats not new.

If you want real substance go to Good Reads or the Foreign Policy group or the state forums - hell even LBN offers more substantive discussion than GD.

After all these years bigtree knew that and yet chose to throw the clusterbomb anyway. ALL of DU doesn't suck. GD does. Sometimes. But that is not new. One either accepts it as a fact of the GD forum or you get sick of outrage fatique and leave.

While I will miss him, new voices will come. I'm perfectly okay with that.

[KittyWampus]

75. Well, Bigtree certainly added to the vitriol HIMSELF. Before Ferguson he contributed to that vitriol

daily posting "outraged at Obama for XYZ" only a daily basis.

So he could dish it out, can't take it.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

82. That he did. I was the target of some of that. But we all have our moments, including you.

I, however, will not discount the entirety of his contribution to DU over occasional differences and bad days.

I used to be one of President Obama's biggest fans. Never cared to attend an inauguration from Texas until Obama's first, when I drove from Texas to stand in the searing cold to watch him be sworn in. I am not as big a fan today as I was then. So, that bigtree had his concerns about Obama doesn't bother me.

[Autumn]

136. And before that bigtree was a stong supporter of Obama.

[Hippo_Tron]

147. That's not DU, it's simple human behavior

[cwydro]

48. Everyone whe goes out with the

oh-so-dramatic GBCW post always returns.

Always

[polly7]

59. Oh, cut it out. How mean and judgemental. People get frustrated and tired of

being crapped on for expressing opinions here, and yes ..... many good posters have left. Don't read them if they bother you so much. You'd think it would be easier and more satisfying to express a bit of sadness for someone feeling so disillusioned ...... but apparently, being a * is easier.

[BrotherIvan]

96. +1

The nastiness on this thread is entirely proving the point bigtree was making.

[polly7]

67. Which has absolutely nothing to do with why he decided to leave. nt.

[polly7]

79. Certainly, 'some' do that. This isn't the case here. nt.

[LanternWaste]

109. Much as if churlish and peevish implication are made about the reasons a poster leaves...

Much as if (speaking in general mind you) churlish and peevish implications are made about the reasons a poster leaves based on little (if that)...


"Mission accomplished if that was the intended consequence."

[polly7]

119. Obviously, you don't give a *.

Many of the rest of us do. Why don't you just ignore the thread if you're so unconcerned - you won't die from it.

[conservaphobe]

120. Alright.

I will self-delete and walk away.

In hindsight, it was unnecessary to say anything at all.

[polly7]

127. Yeah, I don't think it's ever necessary to mock someone's disappointment, disillusionment,

regret at the lack of interest, or sadness at the snarky responses to something that means a lot to posters who've spent many hours working to bring vital issues to the attention of others. But at least you have the integrity to realize it. Sorry if I came across as an asshole, it's nothing personal.

[LanternWaste]

108. Almost as predicable as the petulant and churlish prophecies a poster will return.

Almost as predicable as the petulant and churlish prophecies a poster will return.

(six of one, half a dozen of the other-- insert distinction without a difference here... )

[hifiguy]

78. Sad but understandable, and I hope he returns soon.

I had to leave DU for over a year because I got so very tired of certain kinds of bullshit being recycled again and again and again no matter how many times it was refuted.

Come back soon, bigtree, you will be missed.

[polly7]

84. +1000

(So glad to see you back!)

[hifiguy]

89. Thank you, polly.

I've heard that from more people than I ever would have expected to.

[polly7]

92. I'm glad for that. I knew you were missed by many.

I hope bigtree will do the same, eventually. It's good to take a break when it all starts affecting you negatively - I will cross my fingers!

[freshwest]

102. Did anyone save the deleted post? I see praise on the thread, but didn't see the OP. TIA.

[Princess Turandot]

124. As of right now, the cached version in Google search shows the full post...

if you want to read it later, you might want to save the text. I don't know how often they revisit threads on DU.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gsIPlhLOAGoJ:www.democraticunderground.com/10025449180+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[freshwest]

141. Thanks! I see how I can do that now. DU-only searches always don't work.

This is Google's cache of http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025449180.

It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Aug 27, 2014 11:30:15 GMT.

The current page could have changed in the meantime.

Tip: To quickly find your search term on this page, press Ctrl+F or ⌘-F (Mac) and use the find bar.


I'll do it when I can't find one.

[deurbano]

112. I certainly hope he will return... and soon.

I rarely post (been here since 2002, so I guess my post count makes that rather obvious!)... and I'm not around enough to readily keep track of many user names... but once I read Big Tree's moving post about his father, I could never forget his name. I have really appreciated any of his subsequent insights and contributions that I have managed to see (since I am usually only here briefly each day), and his voice will be missed.

[enigmatic]

131. I don't blame him for leaving

This place is toxic. There is no discussion anymore, just attacks. The people who attacked him before he left are still attacking him. And yes, this place has most certainly changed for the worse since even 2007.

I really hope bigtree starts a blog; he's a wonderful writer w/ opinions I'd read, even when we disagree.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

132. I'm thinking of finding other things to do with my time. There are still some gems here, but...

they are fewer and further between and, as bigtree observed, the good/important stuff disappears into oblivion more often that not because no one recs or comments. I've personally tested this myself in GD.

If I decide to go, I won't be posting about it. Almost no one here will miss me and I will spare myself the steaming piles of shit some posters like to leave in their wake.

[enigmatic]

133. I left for 3 years

And tentatively came back to mostly lurk after the Trayvon Martin murder and have been reading off and on. Most of my favorite posters were either banned, run-off, or left, but people like bigtree were still here, swimming against the tide and putting out great post after great post. Now that he's left, there's really no reason for me to hang around.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

134. I agree. And I join with you in suggesting bigtree start a blog so that he can continue to

contribute to the national discourse - on his own terms.

My 4000th is coming up. Maybe that's a good place to exit, quietly.

[salin]

160. Hi stranger!

I never left - and read first thing in the am and after I get back from work. But only at rare times do I have the time to invest in posting.

I didn't know you were back - and it is good to see you!

The spark for the ugly dynamics was apparent in the first primary season of DU. Heck the greatly missed Kephra was chased off for several months, after being worn down from being called a "Koolaid drinker" (the term folks for Kerry had for folks for Dean).

It's just when it was smaller it was easier to find and appreciate familiar faces - and at times have a sense of community that let one overcome the episodic vitriol.

Much harder to do these days.

If you see/learn that bigtree does start a blog - or become a regular poster elsewhere - please let me know by pm. I would love to follow it/him/his words as well.

hat tip from one oldtimer to another.

peace,

salin

[malaise]

149. He'll be missed

for sure.

[Louisiana1976]

153. It's sad that bigtree's leaving. His Mike Brown posts were good ones.

[Liberal_in_LA]

154. and goodbye to Redqueen also

[rhett o rick]

157. And goodbye to Nadin also. The bullies are winning.

[cwydro]

162. Well, I think it's stupid

to let them win"

[rhett o rick]

171. They win because they are dedicated, while others are interested in political discussions

they are looking to alert, lock, hide, ridicule, etc. It's almost like a game to some.

[msanthrope]

170. Wait. Nadin left? When? nt

[SidDithers]

173. She hasn't come back from yet another forced vacation...

She complained on the Facebook page about being locked out and not being able to do a proper Walt Starr.

I told her that if she really wanted to get her account banned, like Walt Starr did, all she had to do was to create a sock and start posting while her main account was on lock-out.

Suffice it to say, she didn't really want her account banned. She says she's asked Skinner to close her account, but Admins don't usually do that.

She's lurking, tho, because she's posting about DU threads on the Facebook page.

Sid

[DonCoquixote]

158. an open plea to the one that run this place

Look, I know your job sucks. It is thankless, with people on all sides gettign angry at you because they did not get exactly what they want, exactly how they wanted it.

But there is a sickness here.

Frankly, the Bullies here know how to game the system, and no, I do not mean just the jury system, though I will not take back onw word I have said in critque of that system. I do not just mean doiscussionist, whioch you probably had grand idea for, but it has become a have of sheer nastiness and malice.

I mena here, where people are bullied, the women, minorties and liberals that the Democrats were supposed to protect, the Democratic underground was supposed to protect. I know some of the bullies may belive in what they do, then again, some of them might jusyt want to start shit, because we have let disciourse get to the point where just being rude is considered to have a point.

However, it needs to stop. Whatevcer measures are in palce to stop bullies are not working.

[greatlaurel]

175. Thank you, that is very well said.

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 10:06 AM - Edit history (1)

For this forum to have lost such a wonderful person as Bigtree is unacceptable. His insights, postings and reporting about Ferguson were the best and most useful of any website. I had received a response to one of my posts from Bigtree and I was looking forward to discussing his comments further. Unfortunately, my opportunity to learn and be enlightened by his wisdom is now lost.

I hope the one who runs this place starts banning some of the bullies on a massive basis. This is a sickness that appears to be an all out campaign to ruin this site. I have seen this happen on another website until it was taken down completely. Please do not let that happen to this site. There are way too many good people here to let this community to be ratf***ed.

I sincerely hope that Bigtree comes back soon.

[Rex]

168. I suspect that at some time, they will come back.

[abelenkpe]

176. Always loved Bigtree's posts

Hope he returns!