I'm done, too.

[redqueen]

If anyone wants to keep in touch PM me.

No opus from me, those who know me know why.

Take care.

[el_bryanto]

1. Good luck with everything.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

2. Peace to you, redqueen. :( nt

[closeupready]

4. No, please don't go, just take a break, if necessary.

Your voice is important here - at least to me.

[leftstreet]

5. WTF is going on around here?!

May I ask, are you going somewhere else?

[TwilightGardener]

7. That is my question...what is up today?

[Maven]

20. The party goons who've been allowed to run roughshod over everyone else

(with the tacit approval of the DU admins)

...have finally ruined the site.

DU used to be a place to find a wealth of valuable and useful information.

Now it's just a platform for "look at me" posts by a vocal few.

[leftstreet]

45. We need a DLCTurdWay Resistance Movement

[hifiguy]

49. I don't think this has one thing to do with the Paulbots

or the Turd Way crowd. Not for a nanosecond.

[merrily]

230. You think it's the fault of liberals, then? Or something else entirely?

These are not rhetorical questions. I have no clue what is happening.

I always seem to show up in time to see threads like this, but not in time to see what caused them.

[hifiguy]

264. It was all about an argument

Over a comic book cover and it started last Saturday.

[merrily]

266. Thanks. I appreciate your reply. As I kept reading down the thread, that started to seep in.

Maybe I should learn to read the entire thread before making my first post on it!

[AgingAmerican]

333. Lordy

nt

[QC]

52. Bingo. n/t

[secondwind]

92. I have to agree..n/t

[uponit7771]

104. +1

[Logical]

179. Help me understand....

Can you lists links of a couple of examples?

[laundry_queen]

188. Yup. nt

[lonestarnot]

564. No shit. Are people waking up to it after months and months now?

[Snotcicles]

170. There is no comity here anymore. nt

[SoCalDem]

529. Amen to that

I read daily, but do not feel compelled to comment or post much, because the vitriol is rampant these days..

[Nye Bevan]

6. Is this in some way related to Spiderwoman's buttocks? (nt)

[TwilightGardener]

8. OK, I had to LOL.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. That actually wasn't a joke.

There was a big kerfuffle over the way in which an 'alternate issue one' spiderwoman cover was drawn a few days back. For some reason, a lot of folks thought that was an important enough issue to fight over that a lot of anger and taunting went back and forth among the participants.

I think there are a lot bigger battles to fight in the war on cultural misogyny, and that that particular one wasn't helpful in changing how feminism is viewed on DU, much less the wider world. rq even posted another diary about it I saw pop up on the list again just this morning, with a picture of how it 'could have been drawn instead', and I think most comic book readers wouldn't have cared or even noticed whether it was drawn as originally, or in the 'hawkeye initiative-approved' way.

When you're fighting to even get people to notice misogyny is a problem in society, I think it's more helpful to focus on the more obvious fights, rather than those involving a change of 10 or 20 degrees of angle of a drawn character's rear end. Get people to recognize the more blatant problems, and you can slowly get them to recognize more and more subtle problems. Start with subtle ones, and you end up just getting more people set against you.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. I see your point ... to some degree but,

I saw redqueen's point, too.

What is the target audience for comic books these days anyway.

A lot of niche groups have sprung up over the years, I think.

meh.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

62. I didn't, at first.

I had to sit back and think about it from a female perspective before I could see why I was supposed to think it was a 'sexy' pose. I think the thread wound up being a lot of people talking past each other, rather than any sort of useful lesson for anyone. But I also think it's simply going to change over time on its own, now that more females are working in the comic book industry. People who have direct input are going to make stylistic changes, and, tbh, I still don't think most comic readers will care about those changes in pose or costume being made. As others noted, the average comic reader of today is not the reader of 20 years ago, and anyone who wants 'porn' can simply grab plenty of it straight out. So changes can be made, and readers won't actually care that they are, because they're not reading comics to look at drawings of poorly-clad women in contorted poses.

[Gormy Cuss]

86. If the readers aren't drawn to the comics because of those drawings

why are they used?

They're use to draw readers to the comics, else some other image would be used.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

90. Because the guys who draw the comics like them?

When you look at the titles that do the best in sales, I don't think you're going to find a lot of them are female-body-centric.

Most people don't look for the comics with the 'sexiest females'. They read specific series - Spiderman, Iron Man, the Avengers, Superman, etc, etc. (In my case, back in the day, Blue Devil, who, apparently, wasn't like by anybody but me.) Whether or not there even are any females shown in any given issue probably doesn't even affect sales from issue to issue. You're not going to 'not buy' an issue of a series you read simply because there are no 'sexy females' drawn in it.

What's going on here is two different things - First, an argument that the overall way in which women are drawn in comics falls in line with misogynistic standards. And the answer to that is yes. But second, the argument that it's driven by current demand. And I think the answer there is no. I think it's driven by a small number of artists, who created the styles that are used as guidelines by most artists. Get more artists in who don't hyperexaggerate human bodies, don't use weird contorted poses, but keep the storylines going, and I really don't think you're going to see any real drop in sales.

That's why I think people were 'talking past each other'.

[Gormy Cuss]

97. The guys who draw the comics aren't volunteers, are they? Someone is paying for the art

and that someone has a fiduciary interest in making sure the product has the best market potential. If Jessica Rabbit heroines didn't sell, they'd try something else. IOW, it's a business decision.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

107. It's highly probable that there's a business decision in there

but that doesn't mean it's based on reality. A lot of business decisions aren't, even in businesses that make millions of times more money than in the comic book industry. A few people decide they 'know' what people want, and that's what consumers get, whether they care or not.

One of the biggest hits of the last few decades was an indie title about four giant mutated turtles. Sure, they threw a female reporter in, but she's certainly not what propelled TMNT to business nirvana. Give people more choices, and they'll read them.

[hifiguy]

109. Yep.

No one was ever more surprised to become multi-millionaires than TMNT creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. No one in the history of the world. They started it as an independently published spoof.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

115. I actually bought the first half dozen issues or so when they first came out.

And I wish to heck I'd held onto them longer. Ended up selling them for $300 or so I think, back before the real boom in popularity and thinking I'd scored a nice profit.

[hifiguy]

123. I cashed mine out at the first top of the market

in '90-91 and got $600 in store credit for them. Didn't have to pay for a comic for months.

[dionysus]

142. i have issues 2-4 somewhere in my collection, gathering dust :)

[daleanime]

194. I can think of at least one more Blue Devil fan....

[blackspade]

578. I think your spot on here.

[Scootaloo]

110. As yes, that pesky invisible Hand of the Market!

Comic art is generally fucking awful. Comic fans are generally the first to point this out. They purchase the series for story and character - it really is a case of "reading it for the articles." If you think anyone picks up and issue and goes "Rad, look at ll this Rob Liefeld art!" you've never spent ANY amount of time among comic dweebs

comic art persists the way it does not because the "market demands it" but because the industry itself is mired in the Tits-and-Ass pose, vacuumed spandex, and MusclesEverywhereWithPouches style of comic art. The market is quite willing to accept "atypical" looks in its heroes and heroines, it's just that the industry doesn't want to take the "risk" of shedding its 50 year-old art style.

[hifiguy]

113. Liefeld has been a one-man blight on comic art

for going on 25 years. The guy can not draw. And he has spawned legions of copycats. Go back and look at some John Byrne, Neal Adams or George Perez if you want to see what GOOD comics art looks like.

[Scootaloo]

117. Actually he does quite well, for a man who draws using only his nose and upper lip

[hifiguy]

122. Give a chimp a Rapidograph

and you will get art that looks like Barry Windsor-Smith compared to Liefeld's.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. Tits-and-Ass pose etc. apparently sells.

The one trend in comic art that seems positive is that female characters now may have well-defined muscles too -- the old ones apparently only had well-defined gluteus maxima.

Comic dweebs aren't the only audience. There are others who may want to read comics but aren't regular readers yet. That's market potential. Decisions on cover art in particular should be geared to that potential audience as well as appealing to regular readers. Somehow I doubt that the big publishers ignore new market potential when art is considered.

[Scootaloo]

132. The only thing that DOESN'T sell is poor storytelling

And even then, established lines will carry on (I'm looking at you, Superman.)

Enough comic titles and producers have made the effort to change the art style to something less, well, stupid to show that this sells just fine. It doesn't harm their market at all, and in fact gets good publicity - because it actually broadens their market - Turns out people are more likely to pick up a comic book if it DOESN'T have softcore porn on the cover.

Thus the ruckus over the spiderwoman cover - Marvel already knows that it doesn't need to vacuum-pack its female characters in order to sell comics. It is in fact leading the industry on the issue, along with various other inclusive changes. The spiderwoman ready-to-be-mounted cover is actually a step backwards for the company standards. And your - and perhaps their - line of thinking on this is actually pretty insulting to the target audience.

[Warren DeMontague]

197. It's not the main cover, though, scoot.

It's a special edition they commissioned and are making available, probably on a limited basis.

So how much you want to bet that the "controversy" around the cover drives demand for what one suspects will be a limited release, through the roof?

Why, a conspiratorial mind might think they drummed up the controversy just for that reason.

Hmmm.

[dionysus]

143. you had to mention Rob Liefeld. i now nee to go drink some bleach. gee thanks...

[Scootaloo]

144. Might want to save some for your eyes!

[dionysus]

145. now i need to poke my eyes out! you owe me a braille monitor and keyboad dude.

[merrily]

243. A lot of things draw customers that decent people would refrain from.

For just one example, porn involving minors. Another example, US networks showing the fall of the twin towers wiped out images of people throwing themselves out of windows. I am not equating either of those things with a comic book drawing, just trying to make a point.

This post not about the spiderwoman drawing specifically. I did not see it or the thread about it. I just wanted to say that drawing customers is not always the be all and end all and suppliers, vendors or whatever do limit themselves all the time even if something is a sure seller.

[TwilightGardener]

56. I saw that thread, and stayed out of it.

But the absurdity was neatly encapsulated in Nye Bevan's question.

[chervilant]

60. Well, see, that's part of the issue re: the misogyny on this site--

seems a lot of men feel they can evaluate/criticize/belittle feminists, and advise feminists--women, in particular--about what battles should be fought, and where, and why.

I suggest you review some art history texts to see how the portrayal of a specific comic strip woman might torque those of us who continue to fight for respect, autonomy, and equality.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

66. Shrug.

I've watched a lot of people fight for change over the years, and seen which sorts of fights work well, which sorts work poorly.

I don't think the fact that I've got a different chromosome prevents me from being able to generalize what I've learned from one type of fight to another.

I'm not going to shut down your voice, but I'm also not going to simply let you proclaim that no one can understand something unless they're the person being victimized in a given fight. Oddly enough, men can understand something about the fight against misogyny, just as it's possible for white people to understand something about the fight against racism, or straight people to understand something about the fight against homophobia.

I won't make any suggestions to you as to what you should read, but I'll note I did enjoy the art history I took back in college.

[chervilant]

68. Bleh...

It's not your chromosome that's the issue here.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

71. Really?

Well, see, that's part of the issue re: the misogyny on this site--

seems a lot of men feel

[chervilant]

118. So,

your 'maleness' is defined by a chromosome? Your socio-cultural milieu in which you reached your majority has had no part in shaping you?

I think that's rather sad.

[Treant]

126. Unfortunately, this is why

I always have the impulse to reply to pop cultural drivel like this, "Oh, you're a radical feminist. That's so cute."

You've just had the gall to call him "sad" but seem unable to realize that the socio-cultural whatever it fits under is "incredibly rude." It deserves little but a reply of the same caliber.

It's for this lack of any manners coupled with incredible arrogance that causes a great deal of resistance, mostly because I don't want to be forced to assume exactly the same level of perpetual outrage. It gives me a headache and takes time away from the family.

[chervilant]

135. Pop cultural drivel?

Lack of any manners?



Perpetual outrage seems to be code for anti-feminism. I'll just have to welcome you to my IL.

[BainsBane]

202. Perpetual outrage?

This place is in outrage over one thing or another all the time. The difference is the popular outrage is dictated by what is on cable TV. Redqueen's is not. Gaza, once the burning issue. is now entirely forgotten. Concern for Ferguson has been replaced by jury hides based on concern about the oppression of white men. Redqueen's posting didn't follow Cable TV programming, and you don't like the fact she has the nerve to care about issues you think unimportant. Just because someone posts an opinion doesn't mean you are required to agree with it. Yet you are outraged that she dared to post about issues that don't pass your approval.

This load of excuses about "perpetual outrage" is transparent. We get the point. You don't want to hear about anything as inconsequential as misogyny. There is a lot of stuff I don't like hearing about either, like fantasy presidential politics. I trash the threads. You, however, are OUTRAGED that someone has the nerve to interrogate cultural images. What you call "pop culture drivel' has been the subject of academic analysis for decades. The rest of the site is not going to bow to your refusal to acquaint yourself with intellectual developments of the past thirty years. You don't want to be exposed to such ideas. That is your choice. But don't for a second think your little pretense about outrage is even mildly convincing. You are plenty outraged. You're outraged at challenges to power and patriarchy. As irritating as you find it, not everyone feels compelled to promote capital over human rights.

[betsuni]

203. Sustained applause and a standing ovation with some cheering. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

222. +1,000,000

Nailed it!

[sibelian]

253. Mmmmm-hm.

"You, however, are OUTRAGED that someone has the nerve to interrogate cultural images."

....

OK let' take attempt to take "interrogate cultural images" seriously.

Yeah.

The problem is, you see, that the cultural images typically under interrogation of this kind have nowhere near a fraction of the power in affecting society that people like you attribute to them.

They fascinate YOU ... because you're interrogating them. That's why they seem like such a big significant fucking deal. You've chosen to treat them as if they are, that's all.

That doesn't mean that they have any inherent value to anyone else, any more than your interrogation of them.

It's not "outrage" being directed at this ludicrous waste of time, I;m afraid, it's mostly bafflement and mirth.

[BainsBane]

314. Fine, then don't read about it

No one asked you to. You are not everyone, and the fact that other people do care is demonstrated by responses to those threads and the fact there are thousands of books and even more articles published on those subjects. Go focus on whatever it is you care about and leave others to talk about what interests them. Capital, power, and privilege can survive without your efforts to shut down critiques of them. Corporate media's profits remain safe. You don't need to fret so that some feminists who read academic analysis are doing awful things like thinking.

[JaydenD]

361. Now is a good time as any to mention that you

are very good at communicating your ideas. Excellent always to read what your opinions are as you make them pointy sharp and clear.

[seabeyond]

363. she creates a lot of dots to follow that simplifies the whole process for many. i agree.

analytically.... always. without emotion. which is fun. and kinda surprising it is so hard for many, that claim inherently this would be a gift of man.

[BainsBane]

367. Thank so much

That's very kind of you to say.

[hifiguy]

275. "Lack of manners and arrogance"

That is it in a nutshell. How you frame and advance an argument is a Big Deal and civility and reason are much more convincing that perpetual outrage. Style counts.

[seabeyond]

282. yet, using comments like perpetual outrage is and passive aggressive insults is an

acceptable "style". it is those that do not buy into the slights and insults, and calls them out, that are being rude.

a person suggested to me, if only i learned how to be passively aggressive, i would not get as many hides. personally, i see passive aggressive as cowardly and dishonest. i do not buy into cowardly or dishonest, and will not do it.

it is about "style". though i do not necessarily agree how you get to your conclusion

[Tuesday Afternoon]

292. truth.

the passive aggressive Tone usually wins out on DU3.

They think they are subtle with it.

They are not.

[seabeyond]

298. actually, the people that are in the know, because of following conversation....

clearly see. what the passive aggressive counts on, and are confident in (and they have reason to be confident cause it is successful. little risk. the risk is calling it), is... we will clearly see the insult. jury will be clueless. the insult slides. though still. insult. how many times has your sexuality or sex life been challenged on du, and not a single hide in saying it. how many times have you been called an hysterical woman. and that is fine. almost... always. man hater. always.

we see, we know. and those not playing do not.

the odds are in the passive aggressors favor. that is why i fail.

ironic, huh?

now, though this picture does not feel comfortable on the passive aggressor, they can alert. and it may or may not be hidden. depends solely on the make up of four duers that fit so many of those angles. hate for me. hate of women. not participating. passive aggressors. this is cool and too funny. love life woman. so... what perfect manner for a passive aggressive person to be the most effective? why, participation of jury. lol. and what better manner of a just reason for passive aggressive, that would effect you and i the most.

conclusion.

a jury can read this very post, that is mostly for me understanding what is happening on du. not wanting redq or bigtree to walk. because i value both voices. whether one agrees with me or not. it is merely looking at the issue we are talking about. me in my blunt out there manner. because i do not feel it is honest to walk the passive aggressive. and it could be hidden. i am rolling the dice.

that is was saying last night.

cause really. all skineer is asking i be civil. my challenge is trying to gauge what is civil. i never had that issue for a lifetime. literally. not only have i ever and only been considered civil in real life. people actually see me as loving. nice. the good girl with a boy (rollin eyes), not the bad girl in leather riding a motorcycle.

all in how others create us. funny funny. i enjoyed this thread. it took me all over the place. a decade of my life. now. i am outta of here to enjoy. something all these time outs have so created for me. love you woman.

[BainsBane]

320. It's not about style, it's about content

The style argument is simply a variant on the tone argument. The point is male privilege shall not under any circumstances be questioned.

[seabeyond]

323. it SHOULDNT be " about style, it's about content" but it consistently is...

is my argument.

The point is male privilege shall not under any circumstances be questioned.

that would be the point. i agree. and as a feminist, i have to call it out. i do not have a choice. hence our risk. this is all very pragmatic conversation. it should be very easy to follow.

the odds. risk. rolling the dice.

[BainsBane]

317. Redqueen does not have a single hide

You were saying?

[hifiguy]

330. Sigh. So beside the point.

I am on the far left in terms of US politics - an anti-militarist democratic socialist who is adamantly pro-equal rights for ALL and anyone familiar with my extensive posting history, going back to 1995 as MN ChimpH8r, knows this, yet in the now-infamous comic book thread was called a "neoliberal" and likened to Breitbart for my comments on the subject matter therein. What is the point of that? It's a ridiculous assertion.

Insulting people who probably agree with 95% of your views and policy preferences because of their genuinely principled disagreement on the rest is counterproductive in the long run IMO.

[BainsBane]

337. I'm constantly insulted

in far worse ways, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't feel a lot of sympathy. Every woman who criticizes rape porn or human trafficking is compared to the far right. You yourself rec'd a thread by a now PPR'd RW troll calling me out as "imaginary."

I would guess that RQ doesn't see you in 95% agreement with her. I would guess she might see that agreement closer to 5%. Your very contention that the differences are minimal reveals the extent to which you trivialize issues that are important to her. People seem to give themselves a lot of credit for simply posting on a Democratic discussion board, that doing so is supposed to come with some sort of assumption of allied status. It does not.

[hifiguy]

343. Pardon me for assuming that

People on a "Democratic" board would generally share liberal or leftist views. Dopey me.

[seabeyond]

344. "Dopey me.". ya. hence the constant clarification. pointing out, with the hope a poster will listen

[hifiguy]

346. Whatever.

[seabeyond]

347. kinda like... so, no listening? is that your point of whatever?

[hifiguy]

348. I said what I have to say.

And stand by it. Bye bye

[seabeyond]

350. yes. as did i.

[BainsBane]

357. All it means is someone has an account

It tells you nothing about their political ideology. That is disclosed through their views on issues.

When you make a point of telling people their rights, indeed their existence, is insignificant, you can hardly be surprised if they don't see you as on their side. Isn't the point of such statements to erase women like me, RQ, and ism from political discourse? You then turn around and claim you agree on 95%, which makes clear you our rights as so insignificant that they can't be conceived of as more than 5 percent. I would suggest if I held positions that were liberal in most areas but opposed gay marriage, you wouldn't think that amounted to a mere 5%. Yet you imagine we should think so little of ourselves, that we should gleefully accept the fact that you can declare us imaginary and irrelevant and still be an ally? No. It doesn't work that way.

[hifiguy]

377. Presume away

I would try and persuade you to modify your opposition with logic and extrinsic evidence. I would still welcome you as an ally on those issues where we share common ground. I am not much for all-or-nothing purity tests. That isn't the way my mind, or the world, works.

Other than your gay rights analogy I can't make head or tail out of the rest of the word salad.

And I am now DONE with this thread.

[BainsBane]

444. Yet you find it acceptable to insult feminists as right-wing

and declare their life experiences "imaginary." But I think we got the point. YOU are too important. The rest of us, not so much.
You're willing to accept us as an ally in fighting for your rights, while you declare ours insignificant. That is not what allies are.

I didn't submit you or anyone else to any test. I commented on your whine about redqueen and your assumption that I or others owe you something for posting here.

[hifiguy]

445. You seem to be mistaking me for someone else.

It was not I who pointed out the similarities between some of the positions rq took and the Meese Commission's so-called findings. I will own up to, and own, what I have said, but not to things I haven't said even if I agree with them.

[BainsBane]

447. Is that not your name rec'ing this thread?

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10025361657

You'll have to excuse me if I take that rather personally. The OP, now PPR'd as a RW troll, declares my experiences "imaginary." Seeing as I don't exist, I'm not sure how much use an "imaginary" ally such as myself could be.

Aside from my self-indulgent hurt here, the way this relates to your complaint about redqueen is that it shows that insults are directed toward feminists too, and quite often. This one is hurtful to me personally because it ridiculed some very unpleasant personal experiences I had with prostitution. I recall you responded similarly to a post I made pointing to Ism's post about her reunion of street kids, mostly sex workers who are now dead. Those are real human lives that count. Dismissing them as imaginary or nonsense is about as insulting as it gets.

[hifiguy]

448. Yeah, I rec'd it. So did 18 other DUers. And I am proud to share that rec with La Lioness,

one of my favorite people here. I recognize some other very good DUers on that rec list as well. I had no idea that poster had been tombstoned, not that it makes that any difference to me. So all 19 of us are bad?

[BainsBane]

450. What it shows is you thought it a good idea to ridicule me as imaginary

and that you consider people caught up in the sex trade as insignificant. It shows that you proudly participate in insulting others, me in particular, but then for some reason expect me to care that RQ pointed out your views were neoliberal. It shows that you expect to be treated as above reproach despite your treatment of others.

[hifiguy]

453. It remains that

18 other DUers rec'd that thread. Yet you single me out. To call me a neoliberal is to twist the word beyond all meaning. I value language, am a professional writer and care about its accurate usage. I don't care if I am insulted by someone on a message board. My ego isn't that fragile, but if you're going to insult me use an insult that is at least in the same universe of relevance to what I say.

And you do not have one damned idea what I do or do not think other than the actual WORDS I type on this board, and your claim to do so is exactly the arrogance I was referring to upthread. You are free to claim omniscience. I refrain from doing so. My posts represent my own viewpoint only unless I specifically state that I am agreeing with another poster. I never claimed to be the Last Word on anything, unlike some people.

And at this point I am ending this exchange.

[BainsBane]

457. I single you out because you are the one complaining about being insulted

by redqueen. You are the only one of those people whining to me about how you have been mistreated. You hold Rq up to scrutiny but object to it when directed against you.

Your reaction again shows your double-standard, that some people count and not others, which really is at the heart of the substance of the issues debated.

The common view of prostitution on this board is neoliberalism as critiqued through theory of social reproduction. The entire "choice" excuse is a neoliberal argument. http://www.democraticunderground.com/125548526 It posits the marketplace as the ultimate determinate of rights.

[pintobean]

455. Your name isn't mentioned in that OP. /nt

[RobinA]

324. Good Luck

making this argument around here. I'm amazed at how many people don't understand this, what I always thought was fairly obvious to most adults, concept. I always wonder, Do these people work for a living?

[seabeyond]

326. "Do these people work for a living?" wow. an insult.

[LeftOfWest]

206. How old are you.

Please answer.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

231. Um, ok.

45 this year. And you, since you demanded it of me?

[Eleanors38]

300. Sounds like a come-on, or an insult.

[Doctor_J]

228. If that caused a lot of outrage, and caused some one to leave,

Then DU is pretty much useless anyway.

[merrily]

234. Was that why big tree left, too? Or are people leaving

for a variety of reasons and it just coincided as to time accidentally?

Sorry for asking but when I see threads like this, I always feel as though I walked into the theater three minutes before credits began to roll. And sometimes, curiosity gets the better of me.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

239. I think different, but tbh, we don't even

know for sure that that fight was why rq is out, although the timing suggests it. Someone had posted an OP about bigtree's leaving in which a commenter had linked to fairly blatant hate speech of some sort or other, but I can't recall if it was racist or misogynistic.

As someone posted either there or here, people just get ground down over time over what seems a neverending fight. I think they need to rest and recharge, and decide if it's the fight they want to keep fighting. Anything worth fighting for almost invariably takes a lot more time anyone fighting for it would like. I think you can take pointers from other fights too - examine how the gay community and the mj legalization folks started winning more fights. And see which strategies and tactics last, and which create backlashes. I think over time, if you look at the different fights it's become plain that leading people into change creates less backlash and lasts better than trying to impose change upon people or tell them how they must change. And this is pretty constant whether on a national level or a one on one relationship. Socialize, gain respect, and convince people one step at a time, and you change them. Piss them off, and they refuse to see what you're trying to tell them simply out of spite.

The catch 22 of that, of course, is that people who have the most 'fire' for a given fight are also more likely to carry a lot of anger about the status quo. So to be most effective, you end up having to harness that anger to give you energy, and not simply let it loose on those who seem most ignorant, or even invested in the status quo. When you let the anger and other negative emotions out, you harm your own cause, lose respect, and help those trolling you.

[merrily]

241. What a wonderful reply to a simple question! Really great.

Thanks, Erich.

While I am at it, I add that I always like your posts--and not only because I agree with a lot of them politically.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

246. I try to take people more seriously these days.

In my early blogging days over on Daily Kos, I was a lot more sarcastic, more impressed with my own 'wit'. It actually took going through some of my psych-related nursing classes for me to realize how less than helpful those sorts of postings were. No matter how far apart you are with someone on an issue, your individual stances don't simply come out of a vacuum. They come out of pain, out of fear, out of anger, out of hope, out of love (whether of self or others), all informed by the very different lives we've all lived. Just like everyone else, I get frustrated when people don't 'see' what I think they 'should', but I try not to simply go at them head on. Find places you agree with others, establish respect that you each can reason, and then push your argument with at least that modicum of respect, trying to find the shift in thought that is the key to allowing them to see things as you do. I don't want people to simply adopt what I think is 'right', I want them to be able to see what I do, and to decide to make that change because they can now see more.

And I realize that it IS a neverending fight, even within oneself. There are parts of me that are still blind to various struggles of women, of people of colour, of homosexuals, of transgendered. And denial is a reflex. But I like to think that I remember AFTER the initial denial, to try and examine the issue in question from more angles, to see it from more eyes. Sometimes I get there quicker, sometimes slower, and once in a while, I decide whatever it is has more influences than just racism, just sexism, etc, and that while they might feed in in part, they may not actually be the prime motivator.

I think what's important is that we actually do end up with change for the better for those who come after us, not that we 'win points' individually in blog fights.

[merrily]

263. As a woman, I have had some pretty bad experiences on the job. However I

believe that whatever I had to endure does not compare with what people of color and members of the GLBT community have had to endure. But, that is not the point. I don't want to quibble about which suffering is greater or more pervasive. Point is, to one degree or another in the US, most members of those groups have had to endure things they never should have had to endure. And, if I think my issues at work were nothing at all compared with rape or having your unarmed teenaged son shot to death, they were still enough that I can relate on some level to being treated as less than simply because of what you were born.

However, if you have never been subjected to anything of the kind, I guess it may be hard to relate to. So in that case, I would put a thumb on the scale of what members of those groups are saying.

I don't spend a lot of time in single issue forums, including the women's forum. However, from what I have seen here and there, women often get mocked when they try to explain their issues. And alerts on posts about women's issues are treated differently from alerts on stereotyping and bigotry of other groups. I am neither defending those things or attacking them. There may be reasons to put women's issues in a different class, just as I put my own negative experiences in a different class. I am just stating my opinion about what I have observed.

[seabeyond]

269. the little that happens in the work force permeates thru out society

and is arrived at from society in a much bigger picture. of disrespect. entitlement. privilege. these things are what allows the "bigger". be it the acceptance of rape, even using it as an entertainment value. domestic violence, thumb rule, wife knowing her place, to flat out murder.

our society is so use to this treatment of women that we tend to suggest that it is not on the same scale as gays and blacks. but, i suggest that we are so accustomed to the denigration of women, humiliating, shaming that it is hard for us to see a lot of it. whereas with gays and black.... in your face denigration will often be called out. though as i type, we allow a lot of the ism of all groups in blindness, cause it is just little, perpetuating the larger.

the point though. i think it is important that we speak about the little stuff for awareness and a greater understanding to how we get to the point of the bigger stuff.

[merrily]

277. I agree seabeyond and I don't mean to belittle the things that women endure either.

Things that happened to me on the job, both physical and financial, did not seem little. And I should not have had to go through them at all.

However, I cannot equate them with rape or being shot to death. However, it's the mindset about what it is okay to say or do to women or people of color or members of the GLBT community that pervades society and leads to the more heinous things done to members of those groups. That mindset has to be nipped in the bud every time it crops up.

Mocking, snark, dismissiveness as to any of those groups does not belong anywhere in the Democratic Party, including DU. Candor compels me to add that I have to question whether people who do that are actually Democrats, even in name.

[seabeyond]

285. exactly. how we like to dismiss a black youths experience of being followed in a store,

whereas the white counterpart is not. huge deal, related to ferguson? some would argue not even close to being the same level. YET, without the mentality of the young black person followed in the store, the killing of mike would not have happened, or allowed all thru the nation. it ties in.

[merrily]

290. Again, I agree. All of it has to nipped in the bud.

[seabeyond]

293. which is all redq was saying. the battle fuggin assumed. she was told she needed

sex, and it would all be better, per a long timer. shit like that.

why wouldnt it be called out. from each and every duer.

why isnt redq allowed to simply make that statement without harassment.

and how fuggin ironic.... that this is exactly what we talk about in hof, what feminists are talking about, that happens with interaction of womens issues on the net.

all of this basic.

all of this obvious.

and the insults we must endure, simply to have the right to say.... only that.

[merrily]

294. I have not seen the thread yet Still trying to make my way through this one.

However, based on the threads that I have seen, what you say does not surprise me.

Not correct at all, to say the least.

[seabeyond]

304. this is when i started walking away. i was kicked off myself. i read the thread

after it had already hit 50 or more. i get to a regular poster that sneakedly implies redq or hof member simply needs to be laid. i alert. it was clear to the jury. though a few pretended otherwise. but. the post stayed. it should have been an easy hide, for a progressive board. do not tell women we should just be laid, and life is good. not only is that bad. but, it implies or goes further to the rape joke. about just laying back and enjoying.

as feminists. it is my responsibility to say. no. you are not allowed to say that to me. you are being a sexist. and let me tell you the many reason why.

i should not have to endure sexist and misogynist slurs, in order to say something very basic, simple, that we all know.

[seabeyond]

308. i digressed. after the post was not hidden, i too decided i was done.

i trashed the thread. unlike i have ever done in my history of du. i was done. every thread that popped up, that was merely a feeding ground to insult women, i trashed. i stopped reading. i stopped coming on du. it was redq walking that brought me back. the people she is speaking out, merely insulting. about half have been hidden. i assume our friendly (many) anti feminist troll easy to kick off. yet about half, that is only about insult stand.

more, many more valued her voice whether agreed or not. to me, that says a hell of a lot. that is why i do not accept the walk out, lol. interesting. i am outta here. thanks. and have a good day.

[merrily]

435. Thank you. You have a good day as well.

[hfojvt]

551. "never been subjected to anything of the kind"

Is there anybody in the world who has never been mistreated? I find that hard to believe. And I do not think it goes by various classes either.

I think of a GLBT classmate of mine who recently got married. Has he suffered a lot of abuse in life by virtue of his sexual orientation? I have not lived his life, obviously, any more than he has lived mine, but from where I sit his life does not look that bad.

Same with my black co-worker. Same with almost all of the women I know. If they are experiencing some sort of daily or weekly or monthly or bi-yearly outrages, then they are not sharing them with people they know.

I have no doubt they have experienced some crap, because I think everybody has, and it can be really bad for some people, but horror can cut across all categories. I think of my white male classmate whose whole family died in a fire when he was 14. It's a mean old world and there's a number of mean people in it.

[merrily]

557. You miss the point. It's not simply being mistreated.

Sure, we are all mistreated for reasons having nothing to do with the way we were born. For the sake of discussion, let's call that ordinary mistreatment. Of course, I realize everyone experiences ordinary mistreatment. It's not an esoteric point. As everyone seems to love to tell us life is unfair.

But on top of those ordinary mistreatments, members of certain groups get an extra portion of mistreatment simply because of the group into which they were born. White males, especially WASP's, never had that extra portion simply because of how they were born.

I am not sure why you seem to be trying to educate me about people of color and members of the GLBT community being mistreated because I mentioned both those groups in very beginning of the post to which you are supposed to be responding.

[hfojvt]

566. what I am trying to say

is that I do NOT see any extra portion, whatever that means.

I can think of some white males, Kurt and Dan, who received all kinds of "extra" portions that I know I never had to put up with. Kurt was tormented daily through junior high - because of his glasses I guess. Sam with Dan, although he later became a bit of a bully with my little brother and almost picked a fight with me one day, but there he was getting the crap beaten out of him while a circle of guys stood around cheering and one guy yells out "I've got him next".

It does not necessarily take orientation, skin color or gender to get an extra portion.

My black co-worker, for example, is ridiculously good looking, and I think it might take surgery to get the smile off his face. If life deals him an "extra portion" of anything, it seems to be an extra portion of "good things". Has he experienced some racist bullsh*t in his life? I do NOT doubt it, or excuse it, but put it on a scale and the good things will probably far, far outweigh the bad. At least from where I sit, having known him at work for almost ten years.

I just don't see this simplistic view where male WASPs supposedly have it easy in life, and most of the adherents of that theory have not really flown a mile with the wings of a WASP, or they grew up upper class and have stayed there and think most other white people are rich too.

[merrily]

567. If you do not see that extra portion, you are wrong. And maybe willfully so. nt

[hfojvt]

569. possibly

or maybe I am right, and wilfully so.

You believe in the extra portion, because you believe you have experienced it, but having only lived ONE life, how much have you really experienced? Ultimately no more than I have, and I am an observer and a social scientist.

One other thing I observe about supposed handicaps, is that they can be used in defense. I had a co-worker who was being critical of something I was doing and I responded "Leave me alone, I have Aspergers". This was partly in jest, but suddenly I went from a villain who was being scourged into a "victim" who was receiving sympathy.

It's much nicer to receive sympathy than excoriation, don't you agree?

[merrily]

570. Until I know you better, I am going to drop this particular discussion with you.

If you are willfully ignorant about women and minorities getting an extra portion then any effort to try to convince you otherwise is nothing but a waste of time. I have other things to do I'd rather do with my posting time.

If you are not, but are sincerely unaware, we can always pick up this discussion another day.

You are not right about this, I know that.

[hfojvt]

571. you know you are right

but it is too much work to try to prove it.

I, on the other hand, expended a fair amount of wasted effort to bring you to my point of view.

But of course, given a choice between a) changing their mind and b) proving that there is no need to do so, most people will get busy on the proof.

But if you did make the definitive argument for your case, you might want to save it for posterity http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/160

[seabeyond]

248. redq can thoroughly run circles around this issue, she is so well informed. the men

that regularly attack her know this to be true. they do not enter the thread arguing the issue, or specifically what she is talking about. what they do is throw out snide comments like, ... maybe that woman duer simply needs to get laid. a tired and old insult sexist men enjoy throwing at women to insult, shame and shut up. and jury allows it to stand. that is what the issue is. not a comic strip.

when we have hides and pile ons by the same group of men, then we watch months and years later kicked off for being a troll, rw'er, misogynist. yea... but, we dealt with the disruption for years. the insults for years. and administration is just getting to it.

what you are suggesting is the issue is not even close.

at this point, i have to ask, did i reply in a fashion that was soft enough, kind enough to meet your level of being listened to? respectfully? does the direction i took the issue meet your level of worthiness for discussion?

do you see the flaw in your criticism?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

255. 'At this point, i have to ask, did i reply...'

Yes you did, which is why I'll respond seriously. And because I do have some respect for you, based upon your writings. And btw, I was wondering where you were, since I just yesterday checked your transparency when I saw I hadn't seen you post anything lately.

If you reread what you just wrote, and sum it up, it comes down to 'everyone posting against her are trolls'. You're saying that no matter how 'soft' or 'kind' or with whatever approach you take, it doesn't matter. Nothing will change. And if you honestly believe that, I don't even understand why you would waste your time in posting.

I do believe you can create change, here and there, a poster or two at a time. And what you say is a 'flaw in my criticism' is what I would simply call a disagreement about the tactics employed in attempting to create that change. You don't feel my tactics are worthwhile, while I feel the tactics that employ a more aggressive or even 'angry' tone are counterproductive.

Do you think the Ferguson police handled the protests well? Or Israel and Gaza? Meeting anger with anger? Force with force? Aggression leads to aggression. It only 'feeds' the trolls when you respond to the insults.

I'm not disagreeing on 'the issue', simply disagreeing with the efficacy of the chosen tactics.

[seabeyond]

262. thank you for taking my post seriously, and addressing respectfully.

i think you will find, consistently, with respectful posts, conversation ensues.

secondly.

If you reread what you just wrote, and sum it up, it comes down to 'everyone posting against her are trolls'. You're saying that no matter how 'soft' or 'kind' or with whatever approach you take, it doesn't matter. Nothing will change.

no. that is your interpretation of what i wrote. that is how YOU sum it up. that is not what i am saying at all. there are people that disagree the cover was meant to be offensive to a group of women. there are people that clearly saw their intent was to use a woman, in a sexual manner, to get the $. evidence being that buy so many, and you get this. they knew what they were doing. redq knew what they were doing. and one poster in particular admits that was the purpose. but no.... that is NOT saying everyone that disagree is a troll.

redq and i have been on here for over a decade. we are well aware of the posters and have had enough cnversation to know their position, and their style. and the same goes for our manner of posting and our issues. when we have the same old posters, using that thread to dismiss, insult, shame feminists on du, we get that HANDFUL of merely trolls (well, personally, i do not like using the term troll. i think there are many democrats that just participate and reinforce patriarchy for their own rewards, and they are not particularly troll.)

over the years i have heard from a great number of posters that have developed awareness from our posts. i absolutely do not think it is for nothing. those people go into their real life and interact in a non sexist, aware manner and the abuse is worth the reward i get.

so, no... i did not sum it up, as you summed it up for me.

what you say is a 'flaw in my criticism' is what I would simply call a disagreement about the tactics employed in attempting to create that change. You don't feel my tactics are worthwhile, while I feel the tactics that employ a more aggressive or even 'angry' tone are counterproductive.

this is where i do better with questions, then telling another "what they are saying". again, many times i merely see it as a disagreement also, as i can read me state, in this very post. yet, when a man, who always enters these threads, merely to throw a jab, and dismiss or insult the feminist on the board, makes a statement that a hof member simply needs to be laid, that is not worthy of "merely disagreeing", we clearly get what the intent is. we are to going to nicely discuss. we know it is a waste of time. and jury will allow to stand... i have my own theory on that. that is what is tiring to the point of enough, done.

we women have been told often, consistently, regularly that if we only spoke nicely, gently, stroking ego, we would accomplish more. do you know how many men immediately say.... i am angry, hateful, ect.. when there is nothing in a post to suggest that? it is merely used to dismiss what i say. at the point of someone on the net telling me my emotional position, i stop listening. why take that person seriously. he/she are clueless and it is an ignorant manner to interact.

we cannot get the "tone" right enough for many. we cannot have conversation about a lot of issues that meets the uneducated, unaware, dismissive level of importance. is the cover stupid ass shit? ya. not my battle but, i am aware it is not the surface argument we never get past, and that the more important conversation that effects all of us in this society is way beyond a simple cover to sell magazines.

Do you think the Ferguson police handled the protests well? Or Israel and Gaza? Meeting anger with anger? Force with force? Aggression leads to aggression. It only 'feeds' the trolls when you respond to the insults.

um. wrong side here. we are not the oppressor as you positioned women, but the oppressed. the correct analogy would be... do you think the anger of the protesters in fergusen over the killing of a black young man, ANOTHER killing of a young black man, was worth getting angry about? do you think it was effective?

ya. i do.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

271. That's a lot to reply to, but here we go.

First, I stand corrected, that was indeed how I interpreted what you wrote, not what you meant - now that you've expanded upon it a lot more, I understand much more what you actually meant the first time around. So better that I had specifically said, something along the lines of 'Here is what I get from what you wrote' rather than 'what you said', which was a lazy way for me to try and restate what you were trying to transmit to me.

'We women have been told, consistently, regularly...' Why? From whom? "it is merely used to dismiss what i say."

Not from me it isn't. From me, it's coming directly from my own observations of how I actually get my own points across far more easily, and with greater force when I speak respectfully, without anger or sarcasm. And from my nursing textbooks on dealing with difficult patients, and generally improving 'therapeutic communication'. Every single day in a clinical setting, you're dealing with scared people, with angry people, with ignorant people. People who don't want to do what you need them to, even what's good for them. Responding with negative emotions only escalates situations and leads to greater discord, and will eventually get you fired.

And, I think if you reread my comments, you won't find the words 'gently', 'nicely' or 'stroking egos'. There's a difference between 'coddling' ignorance, and injecting negative emotions into your messages.

Finally, I wasn't specifically trying to choose situations with 'oppressor' and 'oppressed' for my examples - again, I was lazy enough to simply grab off easy and recent examples of conflict. If you want to flip the sides around, that's fine.

Do I think it 'was worth it'? I think we have yet to see if it was. Is there going to be any real change that comes out of it? Or will it be just fade back into the status quo? We saw a lot of anger after Trayvon Martin, and nothing changed. We saw a LOT of anger after Newtown, and guess what? Nothing really changed. More 'pro-gun' laws were passed in the wake of the Newtown Massacre than 'anti-gun' laws.

So will what happened in Ferguson actually change anything? Has it been 'effective'? The polls don't seem to be showing any real change. I don't know, but if it does, it will be because of the work of people who know how to harness their anger, like Reverend Sharpton.

[seabeyond]

276. you are a man. in the feminst circle, one of the things we would bring to your awareness that as a

man, especially a white man you sit in a privilege that allows you to be heard in your calm manner. and if you were to speak in a more aggressive manner? that would be alright too, cause as a man, that is simply innately who you are and you are being a good leader. yes.... you will find that speaking in a calm manner will gain more attention.

now, a couple things.

as a woman, i am told i am hysterical, when there is no hysterical there. i am told that i pulled out a fainting couch for merely making the statements i did. people would be all over that post to you, stating what a manhater i am, how angry and hysterical i am. when there is nothing there.

i have had times when talking to a poster, and tell him three or four time my perspective and i am insulted. a man steps in and uses my exact words. the poster then backs down and says.... oh, so reasonable and your "tone" was respectful. now i get it.

this has happened regularly, though not often. the man and i will sit and look at each other and say, ya.... perfect example of our patriarchy.

that is why i do not buy the whole tone issue. there are certain people that will characterize and dismiss not cause it is valid, but cause they cannot argue the issue.

i doubt that you have had the same experience as a man, that i have as a woman, interacting with men.

a fun experiment to experience what we women do. go into a discussion forum, use a woman name, present yourself as a woman, and see the response to you

the same things you say now, that you say is well received, and the difference in the reaction to you cause the person thinks you are a woman.

i have been called frigid, my old uterus would never produce two boys, anti sex, sex negative, manhater (a fav), and so many many other nasty names. yet. on du, we are told we should be more nice.

personally, i think i am damn nice.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

279. Actually, I use female names in MMOs all the time.

About half and half of my characters. And I've seen a dramatic shift over the years in how those characters have been treated. In the 90s, my characters got a lot more sexual suggestions, or treated like they needed 'help'. In the last decade, they've largely been treated neutrally by other players, who are more focused on the game, and also seem to be older on average.

And although I hear other people think 'aggressive' men are 'good leaders', I tend to think they're just asses. A boss who is 'aggressive' is not a good boss, no matter what their gender. So if you switched out a female who acted like that male...she'd still be an ass to me, not hysterical.

But yes, I understand a lot of people do still buy into the decades-old (centuries-old?) ignorant stereotypes. And the trolls are going to be dismissive no matter what the tone. And again, I'm not asking you or suggesting to you that you be 'nice'. Just saying I think you hand the haters fewer chances to sway the merely ignorant when you respond to them in kind.

[seabeyond]

281. And the trolls are going to be dismissive no matter what the tone.

and it is not all. it is not most. there are only a handful in sight, much more in jury service, unseen.

i agree. we probably agree on most of it.

and thanks for the story of your experience and how you see it. i think you are right about the difference of then and now. and i think a lot of it would be thru awareness alone. and i think that was the purpose of the comic strip thread. nothing more.

thanks for the conversation. it was a good roll.

i am good with my position, reputation, how people perceive me on du. cause really. that is not in my control. i walk with integrity. a person can see it. or not see it. has nothing to do with me.

thanks

you have a good day.

[seabeyond]

265. oh. like the 10th time i was kicked off. this one? a poster has a sarcastic tag in his sig

he made a comment in support of a misogynist. i called out the misogynist he was supporting, giving examples of his misogyny. both the alerter, and the only jury comment that i should have realized that poster was being sarcastic. cause he had sarcasm in his post. that is in every one of his posts. because it is in his damn sig line. cute... huh?

the hide before that that got me kicked off was cause i used the word bullshit, as in, bullshit argument. the hide was literally for using the word bullshit.

personally, i think i have been damn patient with du. i was gonna walk myself after this last hide. until i read the same ole men jumping up and down on their tippy toes cause redq had enough.

that is the purpose and intent on creating an hostile environment for women, that we have been fighting since implementing the new and improved du.

i am the baddest of the bad... me.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

274. I certainly don't think you are.

'the baddest of the bad'.

I think you are frustrated enough to put more of your anger into posts than I think is helpful for your own goals, especially since it gives exactly that sort of troll the ability to silence you. You're handing them the tools they need to shut down your voice entirely.

Laws, or on blogs, rules, aren't really about justice, and certainly not about fairness. And they will be used to enforce the status quo. Those who want to create change have to be even more careful in how they act to avoid falling foul of them. And it's not about being 'kind', or 'gentle'. It's about simply making sure you maintain your ability to keep your overall message heard.

[seabeyond]

278. see. here is the thing. once again, you are defining my emotional state. let me ask

when a poster cheers flynt. standing with flynt. in a thread cheering porn. what would you expect as a response? a nice sugar coated sweetness of "pretty woman" wrapped in a bow not to offend so it is easily digested by those defending? or reality.

a thread cheering prostitution and porn is good. women are not allowed to not only not be offended, but they are not even allowed to call it out to be good liberals and all, and not a prude, frigid, anti sex. this is the position i am working from. and in giving the example of why flynt is a misogynist ass.... one would have to state what he has done and said. like. putting women in a meatgrinder.

now. that is simply a factual statement. yet.... another would say , you are so angry. not really. i am stating a fact. has nothing to do with my emotional state.

you will not find me defining anothers emotional position. i merely made a statement. no anger involved. you defined me as angry. that is not my reality. what i was, was blunt.

what i am often, is blunt. i do not do the tipy toe nicety to make it more easily digested. i do give facts. and when talking about a misogynist, or an industry of degrading women, why would one insist i sugar coat it to make it more easily digestible? totally defanging my argument. it is the very degradation i discribe that is the very issue we are talking about.

do i feel angry here and now?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

283. Do you feel angry here and now?

No. But how people 'define your emotional state' in a text based messaging system depends largely on your choice of words and how you state things. When you say something like 'Bullshit' as per your earlier example, people tend to interpret that as anger.

Why would one insist i sugar coat it to make it more easily digestible?

Once again, I'm not insisting on anything. I'm offering up suggestions for ways I think might help you get your message across to people like ME, especially me of a decade or two back. Men, who have not lived the same experiences as you.

Do you want your messages digested? What is your actual goal in posting? Are you merely venting? Throwing words out into the vacuum for their own sake? Or would you actually like men who are blind to the problems created by pornography and prostitution to 'digest' your words and just maybe start changing how they think about them? Who is the target audience for your message? And what will allow you to most effectively get your message not only across to them, but allow them to actually think about what you're saying, and change what they believe?

When you talk to a child, who is ignorant, do you jump right in and start teaching them calculus? Or do you 'sugar coat' it by starting with addition and subtraction?


(Btw, I have to leave the house for a while, so I'm not going to be responding to other comments for probably a few hours.)

[seabeyond]

286. firstly, i do not go on the presumption these men are ignorant, having listened to them for a decade

i can easily seen when one is interested in conversation and i adapt my message to the poster. especially the well known posters that tell me i simply need to be laid, or put me up against the ugliest picture of dworkin, suggesting i am saying what i do cause i am just so ugly, or cause i do not like sex.

these are regular, long time posters on du.

you again, attributed in inaccurate portrayal of "venting". once again, defining my message. again, i will suggest, that any poster can read this, and see i am merely "venting" when in reality i am having a very serious conversation, hoping to respectfully convey a message that is important to me.

what i know, is i have NO power in influencing how others want to perceive me.

as i said. i have had over a decade of messages from people that do hear what i am saying. i seldom post to simply the one i reply to. i often post to those simply reading and lurking or a feel of a thread.

[seabeyond]

280. and... why shouldnt i get angry with a man that tells me i need to get laid? why am i not allowed.

are we now hiding posts simply cause we are angry? when the content meets rules, when factual, cause i am angry, we validate a hide? cause i gotta tell you, that is kinda like shifting the responsibility of integrity and honesty away from the juror. not only must i watch what i say, i must also hide what i feel in order not to get a hide.

meh.

not worth it. truly. obviously.

i got a hide because someone had a sarcasm tag in his sig line.

line up the right jury, and only takes four, and i will get the hide. think how many times the right jury was not lined up. how many of my posts to you have already been alerted on. and passed jury. all in the odds.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

295. again, truth.

the *getting laid thing* is used by women on this site, too.

That is a double whammy when that happens.

[seabeyond]

316. "the *getting laid thing* is used by women on this site, too. " yes.

and there are all kinds of language that let us know, that is what a poster is saying to us. like. sex positive/negative. we are thinking adults. we know what we are doing. when we call it out. we are the meanies. my father in law. almost two decades. the many family gatherings that i did, because i wanted that for my boys and what my husband needs/wants. would tell me one, two, three sexist joke eveyr visit. every visit for almost two decades. in front of a crowd. always. hmmmmm. lol. passive aggressive. all these educated, diverse, liberal family would look the other way. he would position himself, look me in the eye and tell me the joke.

everyone knew.

the game though. was in if i said something and if i did not. i knew the not losing was in being quiet. now winning by any means. but not losing. the losing was.... even in respect, and nice, and coddle, and gentle (and rarely implemented, only in cases of particularly bad, in front of my young boys. it was more important for me to teach my boys, that it was not allowed, and i as a woman was not allowed to be insulted without me saying). if i said no, at all/in anyway, i was the bad guy.

this is a family of smart. but, it was more important to protect/allow father. that is what i as a feminist call out. and it is not what i grew up with. they also found out they had two gay sons. and walked from the catholic church and no longer tell gay jokes. that would be wrong. they also found out a couple decades ago, FIL has black blood. from new orleans. a sister that was denied an education. there was a large age spread and he did not know she was denied education. she changed her birth certificate. she was defined as lack. we do not tell black jokes any more, either. (not we in me. as a whole by allowing even) i am not the one to allow. in all these things. i have consistently not allowed. and that makes me the bad guy. it shuts me up also. then, i am done.

meh

lol. gotta go.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

322. Yes. to all of that, especially this =

but, it was more important to protect/allow father.

that is Patriarchy in a nutshell.

Thanks.

Nice to see you back on the board again.

Sorry, that it has to be in redqueen's Bye Thread.

[seabeyond]

325. it is not a goodbye thread to me. it is a reflective thread, allowed by her OP.

allowing us to look at what we create. and whether it is worth it. i still think it is worth it. i think she may feel the same. and i hope, beyond hope, bigtree does also. cause, while i was away, i was sittin with him in many of his OP. his voice matters.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

328. I hope you are right in both cases. I appreciate both of them and their input and contributions

to this site.

Like someone else said - The signal to noise ratio just went way down.

[Capt. Obvious]

352. *hug*

[seabeyond]

353. ya, that. exactly. thank you for participating and being my example. perfectly

[JTFrog]

370. Fuck the tone argument.

For crying out loud. You must have something better than that.

I am so fucking sick and goddamn tired of this bullshit. Be polite little ladies and surely that will get our attention.

Fuck. That. Noise.

[seabeyond]

373. fug the tone... lmfugginao. lol. i hear ya sistah.... actually, if one listens well,

my tone... is very harmonious. good to see you.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

384. Does it work for you in any other relationship in your life?

Do you interact with coworkers with negative emotions? Relatives? Teachers or students?

Does it work well? I find you get out of any relationship what you put into it, or worse. Rarely do you get better.

Trolls will be trolls, no matter what, but you're going to turn off just regular people as well when they see lots of 'chip on the shoulder' posts.

I don't ask 'women' to be polite. I point out that being polite helps every single human being, male or female, to get their particular messaging across.

You don't win voters for your candidate by telling them that they're stupid, or converts to any mindset by insulting people.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

393. Let me ask you this =

Do you address your coworkers in a passive-aggressive, condescending, snide tone and, does it work for you ?

You see, the tone argument works both ways.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

397. No, nor am I using such a tone here.

It's interesting that's that's how you interpreted what I was saying. I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic in the least, and certainly not 'passive-aggressive'. I'm often told I come across as too 'stuffy', which, if people are looking to be offended, could come across as condescending, I suppose.

[seabeyond]

398. isnt it constantly condescending telling women we must watch our tone and the subject we address

in order to be effective and taken seriously, heard, when you personally are not in the experience?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

403. I'm not 'telling women' anything.

I'm suggesting to human beings that in both my anecdotal experiences and in the classes in communication for nurses that I have gone through (with textbooks written by women, in classes taught by women), people respond better to more professional communications than they do to accusatory or insulting ones.

And I am 'personally in the experience' of being part of the audience to whom you're communicating. I don't have the experience of seeing how well such 'tones' work between women, but I certainly have the experience of seeing how well various types of communications are viewed by males. If I wanted to sell a product to a particular group of people, I would test my marketing messages on groups who were composed of members of that group. If you want to get a message across to men, then just maybe you might actually try and ask a few men how well the message is getting across, and which message phrasing works best. If you want to get a message about racism across to white people, you would test your messaging with a white focus group. I can't simply go into a group of non-nurses and use the same language and phrasing I would use when talking with other nurses about a disease process. I have to fit my message to the audience to be best understood. and that's not something that's specific to 'women' or 'men' or any other group. It's a universal in messaging, not tied to the topic under discussion, whether it's misogyny, racism, or even raspberry cane grafting or diabetes.

[seabeyond]

405. you are not telling but suggest... women. no. it is not human beings. it feels to me that what

not happening, is you listening. i think that is one of the things that piss men off so much. i listen. no only speak. but listen. i am suggesting... that you are not listening.

the poster you commented to stayed quiet about personal experience for a lifetime. when she finally came out, said it out loud, there were people that called her a liar. she has been told often that she will be heard, if only.... but. thru personal experience she knows that is not true. people will call her a liar, in a very real personal experience, as an insult, to be mean and hurtful. and she knows that people use tone.... as most people recognize and certainly feminists, is merely a ploy from many, to shut women up.

and that men will often pretend to be on our side, support us, if only.... we adjust our tone.

seeing how we all so often walk this path would suggest... we have experiences you do not.

right?

btw. being informed. know the history knowing her experience. i suggest she fuggin speaks out however she feels the need to speak out. and i will respect her for it. each. and. every. time.

i guess that is the difference of knowing and not. listening and not.

you really are fine tuning my argument, so i do appreciate the civility in it. whether we agree or not.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

406. I am indeed listening as well.

And I also support you in speaking up. My support is not based on your 'tone'. In fact, my support is not based on you personally, at all, or any particular individual. My point is simply that you can more effectively message with certain changes to how you message. I'm not going to change how I feel about the greater sexism in society based upon your tone at all. Nor am I going to tell you that there won't be trolls who simply call you (or her, or whoever) a liar outright, no matter what your 'tone' is. There will. But there are also 'waffly' people, who can be turned one way or another by tone. How do I know? I am one. I didn't at first believe in 'white privilege', but thanks to people on Daily Kos who took the time to treat me with respect, despite my ignorance, who walked me through from the most basic concepts to more complex ones, I evolved into a better ally. Not a great one, but I keep trying. And that same lesson carries over across other fights. Some people are more open, some are less. And some will respond to what they see. If they see reason, they'll be open to being reasoned with.

Some. Not all. Like I said, some will always be hostile and trollish, and no change in 'tone' will change that. But it seems to me that larger societal change will come more quickly, the more of the 'waffly' people you can convince.

If you don't agree, you don't agree. And that's your choice, and I'm listening to you when you tell me why you feel I'm wrong.

And whether you feel I'm 'on your side' or 'pretending to be on your side' or 'not listening' has nothing to do with either your tone, or my continued feeling that patriarchy is harmful to both men and women. It may keep me from interacting as much with the subject on DU, but I try not to let negative individual interactions negatively impact my feelings about larger issues.

[seabeyond]

407. My point is simply that you can more effectively message with certain changes to how you message.

i disagree. i guess that is what we are bottom lining. i disagree. having experienced it a lifetime, and lived, i disagree. i have tried to articulate it in a number of ways, why your suggestion is not correct.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

408. Which is fine.

You have as much right to disagree as anyone else. We disagree, and neither of us is injured by the fact that we disagree on a given messaging strategy.

[seabeyond]

409. agreed. lol. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

400. Actually, No ... to me, You do Not Come off that way. However, others on here do and

then act surprised when they get pushback on it. When they are questioned about the sincerity of their post.

Sarcasm and Sincerity are both sometimes hard to convey on a message board.

I actually deal better with the stuffy and pompous because I can detect the sincerity and the fact that the person is trying to use their best manners.

Sometimes, it takes watching a poster and their replies before I can get the vibe for the TRUTH of HOW they are saying something which (to Me) is just about as important as WHAT they are saying.

saying things with love can excuse almost any word ... For me.

nice chatting with you, Erich
gotta run. ciao!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

404. Just checking.

Actually, thinking back, 'pompous' is indeed one of the adjectives I've gotten tossed at me more often. I think it rubs off on you when you spend too much time in school. I fall into the same sorts of cadences I learned from scores of professors.

[msanthrope]

410. As a feminist, and a woman on this board, I appreciate your efforts. nt

[seabeyond]

412. as do i. hence, a long and productive conversation and exchange of ideas.

[msanthrope]

415. I hope you take his advice to heart. nt

[seabeyond]

417. your sincerity with no agenda is so very clear. all one would have to do is read my position,

from all of my replies, to know how i feel.

[seabeyond]

419. now eric. for clarity. this is what i am talking about. Ms and i are talking about a whole lot

of other stuff in these very few exchanges. it is an example of what i speak, being informed, following posters over the years, we talk in a short hand. what may not be clear to one person, is absolutely clear to Ms and i. there is a reason she jumped onto your post, saying what she did, in this thread. it really had nothing to do with you, though.

[msanthrope]

420. I dislike discerning 'feelings' from people's posts. Since, though, you have invited me to

do so, I will only note that you seem to be feeling a bit hostile to some very excellent and well-thought out advice.

[seabeyond]

422. you discerned, incorrectly. i prefer to stick to not discerning, especially as i hate it so....

it leads to being inevitably wrong. as you would note, in my posts, that exactly addresses this sort of "discerning".

[msanthrope]

425. Well...you cannot have it both ways. You cannot invite people to discern, and then tell them they

should not.

[seabeyond]

427. yes, Ms. i can say, i really really can say, that you are not correct how you discerned. one would

think that would be enough, you listening.

[msanthrope]

428. Why not just say how you feel if you think it important to the discussion, rather than asking people

to discern your feelings?

[seabeyond]

430. you made a guess. i stated you were wrong. that should e enough. but, it is not. not for you.

i am not sure what you are referring back to, but i really do not care and am not going to waste my time backtracjing, seeing how i clearly corrected you assumption and misstatement.

you Ms, have a good day.

[msanthrope]

432. Let's not be coy here, SB. If what you feel is important to the conversation, why not just state

it?

[seabeyond]

433. no coy Ms. as a matter of fact, the complete opposite. you are holding onto something tight,

that i am not gonna dig back to figure out wtf you are talking about. i do not know why.... me stating a fact, not remembering or caring what you are talking about, is coy. there is nothing coy.... in my statement. see how one is continually wrong with a guess? hence, why i do not do it.

if you want me to address, you go back, copy, paste and link, so i can see what sparked your interest. i simply do not care enough to take the time to try and figure out your "gotcha"

steppin out the door. as we speak.

[merrily]

236. P.S. The drawing of Spiderwoman's buttocks may be a reason to stop buying comics, not

a reason to leave DU. I don't know redqueen very well, but enough to know she would not cut off DU's nose to spite a comic book's face, so to speak.

If redqueen is leaving DU, I suspect it is because she feels she encountered persistent sexism (or persistence of something else she did not want) from DU posters and not because of the drawing.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

242. I think people believe

it was 'the straw that broke the camel's back'.

[merrily]

244. Yes, but the posts on the thread, not the drawing itself.

And maybe also the way that alerts get treated by jurors and/or the admins. What am I trying to say is, her reason for DU has to be the events at DU, not the cartoonist's angle.

I guess I should go find the drawing and the thread before I say any more. But first, I want to finish this one.

So many DU intrigues, so little time.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

247. Correct. nt

[seabeyond]

249. it isnt about a stupid ass (ya) drawing on a cover meant to be controversial for $. nt

[merrily]

252. Agree--and I have not even seen the drawing yet.

[Iron Man]

332. Nobody buys comic books because of what's on the cover.

[seabeyond]

340. way to mess the point dude. lol. of course not. and it has been proven. and yet, pr firms,

advertisers, media and entertainment continue to think that is the only way to get a sale. hence, us discussing the issue so people get it. you will find many that on that thread that state, the IS the reason as a selling point. argue with them. not me.

[stevenleser]

63. Jury Results: 6-1 to keep

On Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:47 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Is this in some way related to Spiderwoman's buttocks? (nt)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5450590

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

It could be, and it's rude to bring this up, since redqueen has been outspoken about this & other women's issues on DU. This post is insensitive to redqueen's concerns about DU's attitude towards women.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:59 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There are many problems with this alert. The first is, the question makes sense. It is a recent conflagration that redqueen was in the middle of that could conceivably have caused her to want to leave. The second is, its not over the top or an attack. You can't wish a comment into the hide-able category because you don't like it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is absolutely no reason to "alert" on this. People need to grow up.
H2O Man
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think this is worthy of a hide.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster made it clear their point was serious, not meant to be hurtful.

Try to be adults with the alert button.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[EEO]

82. The jury system should be done away with. If it is a threat the admins should take it down.

If not, let the words fly.

[Nye Bevan]

100. Ever taken a look at the comments on sites like Youtube? (nt)

[hifiguy]

111. Oy, what a sewer that is.

Lots of newspaper sites, too. Ugh.

[EEO]

114. I have. A free exchange of ideas is messy. Is that Adams in your avatar?

I find that amusing. I assume you know about the Alien and Sedition Acts? Among other things, Federalists made it illegal to criticize the federal government, and many liberals around DU want to do the same when it comes to their sacred cows. You cannot profess to be a liberal and tout how much you support civil rights then in the same breath limit speech that is non-threatening because it offends your sensibilities.

Feel free to bitch about this post and/or send it to the joke of a jury system.

[Nye Bevan]

119. I'm pretty sure that John and Abigail Adams would not allow people to spew racism in their house.

Which is very different, of course, from wanting people to be prosecuted for expressing such opinions.

I would find it appalling if someone was criminally prosecuted for expressing abhorrent views on the internet. But people like the owners of DU are free to run their websites how they wish.

[FSogol]

257. I encourage you to investigate John Adams' words on Crispus Attucks. n/t

[BainsBane]

211. The "free exchange" sites actually have no exchange

They are filled with spam, porn links, racism, homophobia, and misogyny. Look at the Yahoo groups, for example. There is no discussion for that reason. That is what you are advocating. There are plenty of places you can get your fill of that. DU is not supposed to be one of them. At any rate, the reason the administrators won't abolish the jury system is not the level of hides but because it frees up their time. That ship has sailed. The jury system allows far more right-wing hate speech than existed under the system of moderators, and that is usually what people mean when they talk about free speech. I've seen that shit a million times. Free speech requires not only free expression of homophobia, racism, and misogyny, it requires censoring and banning anyone critical of such views.

You agreed to TOS when you signed up a whole three months ago. The jury system had been effect three years at that point. If you didn't want to abide by that, you shouldn't have made an account. Now you are pissed off there isn't enough "freedom" to keep you happy. Too bad. There are plenty of places you can go for that. Try Discussionist. While they have juries, there is plenty of contempt for women, LGBT Americans, and people of color. Or there is always Yahoo or Stormfront. There are plenty of places you can go to express what you feel you can't say here.

[merrily]

250. The Alien and Sedition Acts did not last long, and Federalists were not liberals, but

what is your point in bringing that up here?

It's 2014 and no poster seems in danger of being tried for treason this week. And if they are, what does that have to do with redqueen's departure?

Please excuse my candor, but you don't seem very observant or precise. DU is not made up solely of liberals. Neither is the Democratic Party. At DU are conservadems, like Baucus, aka Pub Lites, center right Dems, center left Dems, liberals and socialists, among others.

Some at DU criticize only Republicans. Those at DU who are more left of center criticize both the Democratic and the Republican sides of government.

Either way, you don't get posts hidden at DU just for criticizing government. Being a center left Democrat who has been disappointed by Obama and has said so many times on DU, I can attest to that.

I am not saying the jury system is perfect, but your comments are not consistent with my DU experience or observations.

Please link me to a post that you think got hidden by liberal DUers solely because it criticized a "sacred cow" of a liberal.

[merrily]

245. And? No one, including the board owner, seems to want to see DU looking like You Tube comments.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

296. we have sunk very low if that is our measure of discourse here ... that we compare ourselves

to YouTube comments and pride ourselves on being better. and only, not by much ... wow.

[merrily]

301. I don't think that we have sunk that low. That is why I asked why You Tube is even relevant to bring

the You Tube comments section into a discussion of how DUers should post. If that's what someone considers any kind of posting standard, maybe he or she should be posting at You Tube instead.

Apparently, we have sent at least two long time DUers, clearly not RW trolls, running away from DU in the last couple of days. I am still trying to find out why. But I bet it's NOT because DU needs lower standards.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

307. I agree with you but, evidently someone else thought YouTube was relevant in comparison to DU3

and That is WHY they brought up YouTube and evidently They have concluded that we are better than YouTube so, everything here is just Hunky Dory.

because Why?

Because we are better than YouTube?

that is their reasoning. Not Mine.

I am one of those people that think there is always room for improvement and the strive toward perfection.

That YouTube is even entered the discussion gives me pause to reflect.

[AngryAmish]

166. Call out to H2O man:

Putting a name on your jury service is awesome. If I ever get jury service back I might do the same.

As yet I am forbidden because I called ebola deniers ignorent and stupid. So I AM an asshole.

[AngryAmish]

338. ?

What are you talking about?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

339. I am deleting. sorry. n/t

[panader0]

9. What?

[ReRe]

10. There may not be much to stay here for...

... anymore. Looks to me like we've been divided and conquered. Gonna miss you redqueen. Take care and be happy. I hope it was nothing I had a part in. If so, I wish you would PM me and tell me off.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. well

fark.

[Dems to Win]

13. Peace

Best wishes

[rtracey]

14. Perhaps

Perhaps all these DU people leaving should get together and start their own website. If they are leaving because of health reasons or job, family, type trouble, I can get completely behind them, but if they are leaving because things on this site are leaning right or not progressive enough, or not happy news all the time, then I can't get behind that. That's what we fight for, that's what our typed, written words are for. Are most of the leaving DU'ers leaving for that reason? Health, family, job issues, or just political issues? I hope not political, but if health etc, then please stay away, get better and come back.

[trumad]

18. Well I think she is leaving because of the rampant Misogyny women face here every day.

It's getting worse by the day.

[Nye Bevan]

28. At least these goodbyes are not always forever.

In fact 9 out of 10 tend not to hold up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125533830

[Jackpine Radical]

33. Sorta like Mark Twain said about smoking--"It's easy to quit.

I've done it thousands of times."

I think Pitt may hold the record for DU quits, though.

[Nye Bevan]

35. I was thinking "you can check out anytime you like....." (nt)

[cwydro]

84. Lol

But they'll never leave!

No matter who it is.

[hifiguy]

88. Pro wrestlers, boxers, classic rock bands, and DUers

always come back. I was gone for more than a year and just came back a month or so ago after thinking I wouldn't return.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

226. is Pitt currently in a "quit"? there is a god

[LanternWaste]

36. Nine out of ten you're aware of, or nine out of ten with unbiased sources to validate the premise?

Nine out of ten you're aware of, or nine out of ten with unbiased sources to validate a rather shaky (at best) premise?

[Jackpine Radical]

39. Jeez, talk about overkill on an off-the-cuff remark!

9 out of 10 times people say something like that, they're just using a colloquial expression.

[H2O Man]

61. However, 10 out

of every nine times I say something like that, I mean it.

[LanternWaste]

81. A petulant off-the-cuff remark would be more accurate...

A petulant off-the-cuff remark would be more accurate... hence, the overkill.

[cwydro]

76. True dat.

When I get annoyed here, I just leave.

Come back when I feel like it.

It's a damn internet site for crying out loud.

[rtracey]

124. agreed

I totally agree with you.....it's just an internet site. If someone is sick, or job loss, or family issues and want to convey this to their friends here, so be it, but to say I'm quitting because of or trying to prove a political stance, well, are they hurting us for leaving or are they hurting themselves for leaving.....ITS JUST AN INTERNET SITE..

[Logical]

180. What post triggered it? Nt

[theHandpuppet]

224. Exactly right, Trumad

And it IS getting worse by the day.

[Gormy Cuss]

303. There's no misogyny on DU.

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm told that every time I mention it. No racism either. Also, no Randian politics.
It's all good here.

[chervilant]

374. And, we just have our hair on fire...

Or, we're wearing our tinfoil hats...

Or, we have our panties in a bunch...

(I understand that many of us are finding these derisive, condescending types tiresome.)

[KamaAina]

15. Auwe!

No translation necessary.

[panader0]

50. Auwe Kaimuki!

[KamaAina]

51. I assume Kaimuki has another meaning

besides the neighborhood in Honolulu that is home to Leonard's malassadas and the world's largest Safeway.

edit: This is confusing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaimuki,_Hawaii#History

Kaimukī is an ancient Hawaiian name. Its name comes from Ka imu kī meaning "The ti root oven" in the Hawaiian language. The area was known for the many ovens used to bake kī Cordyline fruticosa, or ti roots, into a sweet food similar to candy.

[NCTraveler]

16. Reading your posts have made me a better person.

Reading your posts have made me a better woman. Reading your posts have changed how I view things.

I can only say that about two people on this board. You are clearly you are one of them.

[laundry_queen]

189. +1 nt

[BainsBane]

305. Me too. I"ve learned a lot from RQ

and I will miss her a great deal.

[aikoaiko]

17. I don't believe you. See you later, I'm sure.

[snooper2]

23. You have to say you are leaving so you can say "I'm Back!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391997#post12

[cwydro]

108. Oh my.

Peeps should just take a break if needed.

[Sheldon Cooper]

24. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Exhibit A.

You stay classy.

[hunter]

19. Recognize what the racism, misogyny, and homophobia for what it is.

The little white man-boys are terrified.

I'm certain you won't be silenced, you are merely moving on to other fronts.

Take care.

[Saboburns]

176. Without doubt, your post is one of the most racist, Misandric, and rude posts I've ever seen here

Ranks right up there with 'All them black folk love they watermelons and fried chicken'.

Incredible.

I guess them white man-boys have it coming, eh?

[Notafraidtoo]

213. Feeling opressed?

Must be difficult with the whole world attacking and making life hard for little white men that anytime someone comments on white man-boys it is hurtful, offensive and reminds you how hard life is for white guys?

I am a white guy, but tell you what when you are a minority and the system you live in has you at a significant disadvantage due to history and stereotypes than maybe your offense can be taken seriously. Until then may I remind you this isn't free republic and you are expected to understand the intricacies of the post you were so "offended" by.

[NCTraveler]

311. Look at that. You found a place on du to use your favorite phrase....

in a way that won't have consequences. How cute.

[cyberswede]

319. Have what coming?

Suffering the horror of having their privilege pointed out? Dastardly!

[nomorenomore08]

556. That choice of words does strike me as a bit... paranoid... n/t

[redwitch]

21. damn.

Be well redqueen.

[SidDithers]

25. DU needs a GBCW forum...nt

Sid

[cwydro]

96. Truly. That would be great

or we could all post GBCW threads at once!

I have nothing against either goodbye poster of today, but why does it have to be announced when one leaves?

Curious

[icymist]

175. !

[Peacetrain]

27. Oh no.

[clarice]

29. Have I missed something? Seems a lot of people are leaving......why ????? nt

[snooper2]

34. Kids are going back to school this week

You haven't noticed the flashing yellow lights are back in operation? Oh, and everyone is back to work now from taking vacations with their kids the past couple weeks. Parking lot back to full capacity!


As an aside-

I can't get the damn Silence of the Lambs movie out of my head everytime I see your handle

[lpbk2713]

40. Some of us will now be spending more time on campaigns and GOTV.

And regretably there will be less time for DU.



(And I can't speak for anyone else or their OPs)


Seeya redqueen. Make it a quick break.

[Scuba]

30. Another good one lost. Peace redqueen, you'll be missed.

[KitSileya]

31. You take care too.

More and more, DU is becoming irrelevant. It's so filled with little white men that refuse to accept progressive ideals, the site is pretty much destroyed. I have usually had a tab open on DU since 2001, but increasingly, I don't bother.

And as long as the angry white men and those who want to curry their favor get to disrupt every serious discussion, derail every good thread, DU will lose its soul.

[CreekDog]

139. with white men and the dozen sock accounts they set up to agree with themselves

ugh.

[opiate69]

140. Hmm...

I only know of one person who was caught red-handed with a sock account, yet is somehow still allowed to be here... and it wasn't a white man, by any stretch.

[msanthrope]

411. Why no, no it wasn't. nt

[Kali]

416. you were on MIRT and never saw any others?

and yet they have never denied it and admins KNOW and have allowed the original account to remain a member in good standing.

but you keep on keeping on, that beast may win a race yet.

[opiate69]

421. Reading is fundamental...

I only know of one person who was caught red-handed with a sock account, yet is somehow still allowed to be here...

Indeed, I did see many socks show up during my time on MIRT. Including a few who were vociferously defended by your pals. But they were all given the boot they had so richly deserved. Interestingly enough, they were not white males either.

[Kali]

441. I am sure we have all defended a troll, sock, or zombie at one time or another...

even me. my point was the horse isn't going to go anywhere. everybody who would care knows. and they don't care.

[opiate69]

442. Defending trolls and zombies is one thing...

Especially when the charges of homophobia are laughable at best. Going off-site and offering advice on how to get around IP checks, well that's a different kind of duckie altogether.

[Kali]

443. some people are obsessed with DU, others are obsessed with them

the internets are an interesting universe

[Number23]

155. It's nice to see someone that actually understands what the problem is.

I can't tell what's worse -- the needless snark directed at the OP or the jaw dropingly clueless comments that it's the "Third Way" that's driven so many people from DU.

No, it has nothing to do with the (not so) casual racism, the open misogny and the blatant dismissal of everyone's problems or concerns unless you're a white man. No, that's not part of the problem at all.

[freshwest]

162. Agreed. But don't think they aren't celebrating this, either.

[bullwinkle428]

32. I'm sorry you had to deal with so much crap here.

[HERVEPA]

131. She gave as much crap as she got.

Exhibited too little of the tolerance that she would have liked from others.
There are misogynists here and there are also men who disagreed with her on some things but were not close to misogynists. All got the same treatment: "If you're not a woman, you can't understand anything on the subject being discussed".

And yes, Goddammit, I'm a feminist, whether you care to believe me or accept my use of the term or not.

[Atman]

341. ^^^^ +1000

She was one of the most intolerant people on this site.

[seabeyond]

345. ya. she did not like women being called "skank", and she said so. bad redq.

how are you doing, dude????

[HERVEPA]

362. bullshit. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it.

[seabeyond]

364. i didnt reply to you. did i? and i got a hide for saying bullshit. it does not meet

community standard and it is not "nice". just saying. that would be a reply to you... as opposed to atman.

[HERVEPA]

365. Are you saying he called her that? If so, and true, sorry I misread

[seabeyond]

368. i am saying, he has used the word toward women, and women called him out.

redq called him out. it is what feminist do. he is angry at redq. i bet he is.

[HERVEPA]

375. OK. I apologize on that part.

Calling a woman skank or anything like that deserves calling out. That was not the type of calling out by Redqueen that I was referencing.

[boston bean]

413. The intolerant of the intolerant! I support that.

[chervilant]

378. Sour grapes?

Your use of absolutes is a red flag. Your anger and derision call your entire post into question, suggesting--at the least--a modicum of projection.

I get that you think you are a feminist. Your thinly veiled derision toward another feminist belies that claim.

[HERVEPA]

399. So if I was derisive to any woman who called herself a feminist, that belies the claim.

That is totally illogical and ridiculous.

[chervilant]

380. P. S.

As the newest addition to my IL, any potential replies are irrelevant...

[BainsBane]

437. A feminist who tells women they aren't real feminists

Yeah. I'm real convinced.

[HERVEPA]

449. It looks like you were responding to me?

If so, when did I tell someone that she wasn't a real feminist?

[BainsBane]

452. Oh, maybe three or four months ago

You said as much to me.

[HERVEPA]

456. Could you find it. I doubt that happened.

I know I have disagreed with you a lot, but wouldn't make sense to have said that.
What does "as much" mean?

[BainsBane]

458. I can try later

I believe it was during the Rude Pundit kerfuffle. You used a lot of quotes around "feminist" and insisted you didn't think of me as a "feminist" but as an asshole, or something to that effect. (I'm pretty sure you didn't actually say asshole). I'll have to look it up.

[HERVEPA]

459. I almost never use that word. I'm skeptical, but will apologize if you show me.

[BainsBane]

460. It was easier to find than I thought

You do it over a series of responses in this subthread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5126058

Whiner was the word you used.

[HERVEPA]

462. Whiner, not asshole

And I don't think you are representative of feminists in general with your hostility, but teh you are a feminist in your own way.
I do definitely think of you as a whiner, though.

[boston bean]

463. I find this post I am responding to is hostile.

What does that mean/say about yourself?

[HERVEPA]

464. Well, I've seen plenty of hostility from you too. Pot, kettle.

Anyhow, enough of this. Good evening.

[boston bean]

465. hahaha... LOL

I don't mean that in a hostile way.... JFTR. I'm genuinely LMAO.

[BainsBane]

466. I never claimed to be a representative of feminists in general

That you're not all feminists mantra is an excuse. If I say I'm going to the store to buy peaches, no one imagines I am buying every peach in creation. If I say I'm a Minnesotan, no one things I mean I am every Minnesotan. I am one person, and I have the right to identify as a feminist or anything else I want to. That argument is used as a way to undermine the very being of the feminist you're talking to, in this case me. It is also a pretty damn good example of mansplaining. I can think of nothing more arrogant than a man telling a woman she's not a real feminist because she doesn't do his bidding. That you even think you have the right now to determine who is a feminist tells me yourself as having some sort of authority over women. What makes you think your opinion about who is a feminist matters? What makes you think you have a right to decide such things? You do not. I have never seen you once speak out for women's rights. I've seen you invoke the label of feminism as a way to tell women what they care about doesn't matter. I consider that cynical and manipulative.

You really aren't in a position to call me hostile. I never called you out in a thread or scapegoated you for some random alert. I never had any awareness of your existence until that thread. Your comment about hostility is all about the fact that you think women owe you something. I owe you exactly nothing. I don't need to be nice to you, curry favor with you, or concern myself even minimally with what you want. Why you think you get to insult people and then expect them to cater to your feelings is beyond me. You chose to make enemies out of some of the feminists on this site by scapegoating us. Congratulations. You succeeded, at least with me.

As for whining, that is again is reflective of your assumption that the issues I care about don't matter. That is emblematic of your hostility to feminism, and yes I use that term generally. Your position on that woman in Boston raped in view of the public wasn't exactly forward thinking. Telling me I'm a whiner is about denigrating my efforts to articulate concerns I care about. Feminist is the last thing I would call someone who thinks he and not women is the arbiter of which issues matter.

[seabeyond]

468. that about says it. clearly. dots close together. making a clear path. excellent. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

37. I will very much miss you

But totally understand why.

[G_j]

38. oh no

please don't

[intaglio]

41. Won't recommend because hope to see you again n/t

[underpants]

42. You quit like a .....

Just kidding

If I Rec this does it mean that I like that she is leaving (I don't ) or that I am just giving to recognition ?

[TDale313]

67. I rec'd it and I'm heartbroken to see she's leaving.

Did for recognition/visibility.

[Iris]

172. Rec because redqueen leaving is a pretty big fucking deal.

I'm sickened by this.

[Throd]

43. I disagree with you on damn near everything, but I think you should stay.

[TheKentuckian]

46. Best to you. Your voice is powerful even if we don't always see things the same way

and will be missed.

[cyberswede]

47. Well, that sucks.

I've learned a lot reading your posts over the years. Your voice will definitely be missed.

Keep up the good fight, wherever you end up.

[PotatoChip]

48. You will be missed.

Please consider coming back someday.

You are a valued member here by many.

[WillyT]

53. Take A Break... And Then Come On Back...

[TDale313]

54. Oh, this makes me so sad.

Be well, and I am selfish enough to hope this is a break and not goodbye. It fuckin' sucks that good ones are leaving.

[GeorgeGist]

55. See you round the next bend.

Until then be well.

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. I'll miss you, redqueen

[calimary]

534. I'll miss you, too, redqueen.

Maybe at some point you'll change your mind and check back in? Leaving a light on for you, just in case.

[Octafish]

59. The signal-to-noise ratio will go down.

And the noisy gnats and mites drone on and on and on.

Please know, even when we disagree, you are TOPS, redqueen.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

310. The signal-to-noise ratio will go down. TRUTH. and again Truth =

And the noisy gnats and mites drone on and on and on.

[Iggo]

64. I wish you'd stay, but I don't blame you at all for leaving.

[joeybee12]

65. Take a breather instead...

Once I hit 50K, that's my plan.

[salin]

69. Depressing day.

I will miss your voice greatly.

Regards,

salin

[Sheldon Cooper]

72. Aww... another classy post.

So refreshing to see such love!

[Cha]

205. A Good Hide.. Thanks Jury. One of the reasons for suckiness.. belongs on

the discusssionist.. or not. I have no idea if they allowed that mean spirit to stand there.

[el_bryanto]

75. Classy. nt

[liberalhistorian]

78. Too bad it's not you who's

leaving instead of her. Too bad it's the misogynists around here who feel comfortable enough to stay, while those who rightfully challenge their hateful bigotry do not. I've been here eleven years and it never used to be this accepting of and comfortable with misogyny. Disgusting.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

95. true. though I do remember when the mods regularly pizza'd WOMEN who replied

To misogynist jerks in the way they deserve to be called out.

[joeglow3]

99. I don't see a lot of hatred of women on DU

Based on some people, you would think that was the sole existence of DU.

[BainsBane]

105. Then you aren't paying attention

Or you think the ideas they espouse are acceptable.

[joeglow3]

154. I just think hatred is a strong word

And I think others uses very liberally because it is a strong word. I have seen few examples of people on DU who hate women.

[BainsBane]

157. misogyny means more than hatred for women

Another common meaning is a pervasive and strong level of sexism. That is how RedQueen uses the term.

[LeftOfWest]

207. in 2014 misogyny is hate and is getting stronger.

are you a white male?

Please answer.

[joeglow3]

258. Yes I am

And your point? I asked where the rampant hate on DU is.

[boston bean]

267. You actually have to have an ability to recognize it.

What? Are people lying that they see it here?

[joeglow3]

268. Then why don't you link to it?

Please show me where I said people are lying. I simply asked for links. If you honestly believe my gender and race prevent me from seeing, taking the opportunity to educate me. Show me the things I missed. DON'T talk down to someone because of their race and gender, while offering no tangible items as an opportunity to educate.

[boston bean]

284. hahaha

[joeglow3]

382. More constructive discussion

Odd that this trend continues with you...

[boston bean]

386. Your demands have me laughing...

I don't do demands.

Take care!

[joeglow3]

387. Yeah. Asking someone to support their claims with tangible evidence is "making demands."

[boston bean]

390. this...see below, has me laughing my ass off:

You:

Show me the things I missed. DON'T talk down to someone because of their race and gender, while offering no tangible items as an opportunity to educate.

I don't have to do anything for you. You are a person capable of reading and understand and educating yourself. Please do so. It goes back to my original point, which really was a suggestion. You may not be able to recognize it. However, it is not my responsibility to have to teach you to recognize it. If you don't want to do that, you can remain happy as a clam never having to know anything about it.

[joeglow3]

391. Yeah. Try employing that in an academic setting.

Try employing that in ANY setting. THAT is why you will be dismissed out of hand. But go ahead and assume it is for some other nefarious reason. That appears to be all the "evidence" you need before forming an opinion.

[boston bean]

392. I am not your teacher, nor am I your link aggregator. I'm a poster on DU.

You don't see it, you don't recognize it, you just don't. Ok. calm down.

[joeglow3]

395. Cool. They I will start to make claims and tell everyone it is their responsibility to educate...

...themselves.

That way, I can be more like the crazy person on a college campus yelling at everybody in the student union.

[cyberswede]

309. Read this...then think about it a little

...then recall some of the arguments re: feminism/rape culture/privilege you've read on DU and try to think about how some of the statements directed toward (or about) women in those might demonstrate misogyny (and/or a high level of sexism).

Feminists are not responsible for educating men

As a vocal feminist with many intelligent, lovely male friends, I’m often met with indignance when I choose not to engage with them about feminism. Surely if I really cared about changing our culture of discrimination and inequality, I should be trying to educate men? Isn’t that an activist’s job? Shouldn’t feminists be grateful when men want to bounce questions off us, because it shows that they are at least trying to understand?

It’s both exhausting and diversionary being expected to hash out the basics with men who haven’t bothered to think about their own privilege before. Men are not entitled to expect feminists to educate them. Real change will only happen when men accept that the burden of education is on them, not on women.

{snip}

Here’s the thing about being expected to hold the hand of each individual man as he grapples with the possibility that despite his self-perceived good nature and honest intentions, he is a beneficiary of the structural oppression of women. It actually hurts. Patriarchy hurts women on a daily basis. But even though it can be traumatic to discuss rape culture, for example, we live in hope that by showing men how it hurts us they will begin to understand and become our allies.

http://cwinterfox.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/feminists-are-not-responsible-for-educating-men/

[joeglow3]

383. It has NOTHING to do with feminists. YOU are making a claim

The onus is on YOU to offer support for said claim.

I will admit this is a nice little system you have set up. You get to accuse people of terrible behavior and when they ask for proof, you get to say it is not your responsibility to offer proof.

[cyberswede]

385. Are you confusing me with someone else?

I didn't make any claims. I didn't accuse anyone of terrible behavior.

[boston bean]

388. I didn't either, but the anger my simple response caused is palpable.

[joeglow3]

389. You posted the article in response to my request for evidence

The premise of the article is that it is not a feminists responsibility to offer evidence/educate.

Thus, the position seems to be that people can claim the hatred of women is rampant on DU and it is not their responsibility to show it.

Sorry, but if ANYONE is making ANY argument on ANYTHING, they need to offer support for their position. They don't just get to state it as fact and then walk away without proving their "fact."

[boston bean]

394. Yet, you are allowed to make an argument that there isn't much of it on DU.

Others disagree, live with it. And don't expect them to be your teacher.

[joeglow3]

396. I am not arguing either to be true

I am simply stating that if you make a claim, you need to support it. Otherwise, like I said above, you are nothing more than the crazy person yelling on a street corner. And it appears you are cool with that, so all is well.

Good day.

[boston bean]

401. Really?? from you said and what originated these responses:

I don't see a lot of hatred of women on DU

Based on some people, you would think that was the sole existence of DU.

Of course you offer no proof, I presume you base it off of your experience.

Sometimes that is due to the fact of not being able to recognize it. And if you are truly curious and desire education you need to read, research and not make declarations as to how it is you experience something. Others disagree. They don't have to prove anything to you. Their experience is just as valid. Nor do they have to teach you, you can do a lot of this on your own. Most feminists and persons who care about these issues, aren't so dismissive of others experiences and ask questions versus denying to them it actually exists.

You have a good day!

[BainsBane]

438. Here are examples of the kind of sexism /misogyny that concerns many of us

I will not link to posts or name individuals.

Insisting the SCOTUS Hobby Lobby decision isn't a big deal
Insisting men should have the right to compel a woman to abort a fetus
Insisting a man's having to pay child support equates with the state's efforts to prohibit abortion
Insisting men are more oppressed than women
Adopting the GOP idea of forcible rape vs. other rape and insisting the later (usually child rape) is less serious.
Insisting that large numbers of women invent false rape charges
Insisting rapists should not be punished with jail time
Always taking the side of accused rapists over their victims
Insisting women's issues and feminism aren't important and don't constitute real politics
Insisting women who object to rape porn or prostitution are uptight right-wingers
Calling feminists prudes and Puritans
the sex-negative label
Calling women c...t and b....s
A whole slew of derogatory or sexualized comments about women's bodies
Portraying a view of women that makes it clear someone sees their only purpose as to provide them sex
anti-choice positions
opposing ACA's covering of women's reproductive care
blaming women for their own sexual assaults
arguing that violence against women isn't important
arguing that rape isn't a problem
Insisting a misogynistic mass murderer had real concerns about how bad off men have it today
denying sexism and misogyny
arguing that women in the US should be content with what they have
Citing a study held out by an MRA big wig that claims women say no when they really mean yes
Insisting consent is "elastic"
Insisting that consent is assumed.
Insisting there is no such thing as male privilege
Men telling women they aren't real feminists because they disagree with them on an issue like porn or prostitution.

[boston bean]

461. keep this list handy. It's a good one! Thanks for compiling.

[BainsBane]

492. Now that he's been provided with the examples he asked for

crickets.

[cyberswede]

402. I think the point is...

that the examples are there, if you're willing to see them. I posted the article because I don't know that anyone can prove their point by merely providing a link, if you're unable to see what bb (in this case) is referring to, giving a link won't really help. You'll need to open your mind to be able to appreciate why women (for example) can see misogyny in a post, even if you don't see it.

[BainsBane]

436. Very well said. nt

[BainsBane]

102. +1

[chervilant]

125. I couldn't agree more.

My IL is now three times as long as it was when I started ignoring the racists, bullies and homophobes. Now, I add about three to five misogynists every week or so. Sad, really.

[Le Taz Hot]

73. Take a break for awhile.

I've been posting very little here lately. The last thing that just absolutely disgusted me was when I was working with the 99Rise! group, started a thread on the day's activities in Sacramento and the only response I got was some asshole correcting my spelling. Your time is much better spent being an activist. Most of the people on DU nowadays are keyboard warriors. They offer up inane post after inane post, throw money at some Third Way corporate shill and pat themselves on the back thinking they've actually accomplished something. The satisfaction you get with getting out and actually doing something is MUCH more rewarding. Good luck to you.

[cliffordu]

74. Good. When the sum of what

a person writes here goes so deeply negative and vituperative, it's time for a change.

I believe this is the best thing for the forum and I hope for you, too.

Best of luck. I hope you find a forum that suits you.

[JTFrog]

171. Speaking of deeply negative and vituperative....

[cyberswede]

173. IKR...

why would someone choose to crap all over a poster who's leaving anyway? One more twist of the knife, I guess?

[salin]

187. Really?!

Your choice of comment on this thread is rather like the guy who rolled coal on me yesterday. (Which I find hilarious when it happens - given that most recipients just think the driver has a hoopdie rather than they have just been car-ridiculed).

Hope that made you feel good to post this without mincing words. Because to many reading - it looks like same pointless (in effect) act as rolling coal on the highway while making an analogous image to others.

[Starry Messenger]

221. And you contribute? What exactly?

[riqster]

232. Christ crucified, what an obnoxious post.

[QC]

235. It's an especially ironic one, too. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

77. I'm sorry to hear that.

Please take care.

[Agschmid]

79. Goodluck.

Hope you come back at some point.

[mcar]

80. I always liked your posts

and your outlook. Take care. I hope you come back.

[RKP5637]

83. I will miss your posts and comments, always insightful. I hope you do

consider coming back one day. DU needs individuals like you!

[Kali]

85. ah, hell.

there are any number of posters that I wish would to leave, I hope you change your mind after a break.

you are a valuable contributor to this joint.

[Rex]

87. I know we've had our arguments, but I hate seeing you go RQ.

You are a solid champion of women's rights and I hope you keep active in that pursuit no matter where you end up in life. Keep up the good fight!

[L0oniX]

89. Message and name auto removed

[BainsBane]

91. No fucking way

You aren't leaving us.

[herding cats]

94. I hope you take a break and reconsider.

You make some valuable contributions to the site and you will be missed.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

98. this will lower DU's IQ by quite a few points.

you're one of the brilliant ones.

Can't blame you, though, redqueen.

[Helen Borg]

101. What is going on?

[Liberal_in_LA]

130. she was attacked in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025431864

[Helen Borg]

219. I see. Is she really leaving DU got good?...

[get the red out]

103. Oh no!

I am really going to miss your posts. I hope you only take a break and return at some point.

[GeoWilliam750]

106. You will be missed - very much

[CTyankee]

112. I hope you get to places where you are appreciated and treasured...

and I understand exactly what you mean by departing for better realms. I want you in a safe and wonderful place, redqueen...I will recall you fondly...

[Louisiana1976]

116. Please don't go--take a rest instead.

[another_liberal]

120. I'm deeply sorry . . .

I love you, my friend.

[pnwmom]

121. You will be missed, redqueen. I hope you change your mind.

[Liberal_in_LA]

128. because of the grief u got in my spderwoman thred?please stay

[BainsBane]

149. Of course not

It's the sum total of a whole lot of shit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

192. That was perhaps, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Although, after reflection,

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I really think this post was her light bulb moment ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125549573#post26

[marions ghost]

129. Sorry to hear

we need ya

[Atman]

133. Thank God.

Oh, wait...I'm an atheist.

[johnp3907]

134. Well this pretty much ruins my day.

Probably ruins my DU too.

[applegrove]

136. Don't go Redqueen. We need you.

[myrna minx]

137. I feel so awful for the amount of hate and bile you're receiving.

I'm not surprised, just sad about it.

[Call Me Wesley]

138. I'm out of the loop generally,

but not this loop. We 'knew' each other from a few years back while posting in the Lounge, which was very pleasant those days. I still miss them.

Take good care. I'm sorry to see a strong voice gone.

[Starry Messenger]

141. This sucks. :(

Sorry redqueen.

[Phentex]

146. I have an enormous amount of respect for you...

and I appreciate all of your posts here. I wish you would take a break like we all need to do from time to time. If you do choose to stay away, please know that I will miss you very, very much.

[William769]

147. We are pretty much in the same position redqueen.

May we some day run into each other again on the internet.

[BainsBane]

150. It's always the good ones who leave

[William769]

153. Sad to say, I am finding that out.

[freshwest]

160. Yes. Please PM me about where you've been. I've missed your posts.

[William769]

251. When I get a chance later today I will send you a PM.

[brer cat]

148. Peace, redqueen.

You will be missed.

[XRubicon]

151. C'mon... it's an internet message board

Stay... or just take a break.

I guess if you aren't getting anything out of it you should go for a while, but again I would say you shouldn't take this place too seriously.

[Number23]

152. Sigh

I'll add you to the list of remarkable DUers (mostly women, mostly POC, mostly members of the REAL Democratic base) that won't step foot in this place now.

And I'll laugh at the folks upthread so clueless and out of touch that they think your leaving is because of the "Turd Way/DLC takeover" of this web site. Jesus Christ.

[msanthrope]

414. Those posts are priceless. nt

[pintobean]

156. K&R

[oldhippie]

158. Buh Bye. Don't let the door hit ya ......

.... you know the rest.

[bahrbearian]

169. +1

[cyberswede]

174. nc

[oldhippie]

260. Cute!

I'm so gonna steal that.

[BainsBane]

195. It doesn't change the fact this is still 2014

Every feminist can leave this site and it still doesn't change the fact that the reactionaries are caught in the last century, that they are filled with rage that they can't restore the world to an era when they didn't have everything handed to them simply for being white and male. It doesn't change the fact they feel threatened by a modern world where it is painfully obvious they are woefully incapable of competing on an even playing field. Redqueen's leaving doesn't turn the clock back to the time when women stayed in their place. That era has long gone, and that is really what pisses them off.

[oldhippie]

259. And you respond to me thus ....

... why?

[AngryAmish]

159. oh, jeez.

Sad to see you go.

[sheshe2]

161. ...

[NuclearDem]

163. What? No!

[Shankapotomus]

164. What's more important than even changing minds

Is that you are in a space and engaged in activities you are comfortable with and feel are worth your energy.

Sorry to see you go but happy to see you doing what you want. That's what counts.

[Bjorn Against]

165. I wish it were the misogynists who would leave instead

I did not always agree with you, but I really admired your commitment to standing against misogyny.

[BainsBane]

200. +1

There are only two ways they go, one of which is by PPR.

[nomorenomore08]

559. +2

[etherealtruth]

167. I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear this

[thucythucy]

168. I tried PMing you

but got a page saying it won't go through.

I'll try again, but in the meantime, I just wanted to say how much I've appreciated your posts and OPs.

Best wishes to you, and thanks again for providing such a needed voice for justice.

[taught_me_patience]

177. Goodbye

I'd feel a little a little more sympathy if you and your posse didn't go around shutting down any post that differed from your opinion.

[greatlaurel]

178. I am so sorry to read this. I always enjoy your posts.

I hope you reconsider this. Your perspective and analysis is so very important and needed. I have learned a lot from your posts.

The forces of ignorance, racism, and misogyny are relentless because they are terrified to loose power. It has gotten better, but it is never easy.

Good luck in all your do. Take care of yourself.

greatlaurel

[Algernon Moncrieff]

181. Thanks for hosting in the Hillary Clinton group!

[betsuni]

182. sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad sad

I am sad that you are leaving. A discussion should be like a good potluck, and you always brought a nice hearty main dish. There are too many lukewarm unseasoned hatedishes spoiling the meal (and always the same recipe, never anything new). Have to pick up a pizza on the way home, still hungry.

[octoberlib]

183. I wish you would reconsider. You'll be missed, redqueen.

[seabeyond]

184. that does not work for me redq. i was ready to walk myself, until i read the same ole....

cheering you leaving. that is what all this effort has been. create an hostile environment for women, so we will walk. nope.

tiring, yes. take a break. even a long break.



then roll up your sleeves and dive in. too many have been working to hard for this result. i say, lets disappoint them.

[alp227]

185. and welcome back from DU jail, seabeyond!

[seabeyond]

186. wavin'

backatcha.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

190. woot

[seabeyond]

191. Hoo yah...

Think that post was just too harsh?, I need to delete?, to avoid a hide.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

193. nawh ... Live Dangerously, Like I do. Life on the Edge is a Life Worth living

[pintobean]

574. Looks like your advice was taken.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

575. aren't you just the cutest little ole thing ?!

smooches !!

[DonCoquixote]

582. to those who smirk at RQ

I bet the same people who enjoyed kicking around the Feminists will be the first to scream when their center-democrat drinking buddies start calling for their heads. I which case, the one consolation will be hearing these self appointed "voices for men" scream and wonder why there is no one to come to their defense.

The answer, is because you let the right wing use your fears and prejudices to lead you around by your nose like livestock! You were so busy worried about what you were owed as a "man" that the very people you needed as comrades go led off to the butcher shop, and you laughed, and smirked, and high-fived your buds, until such time as the Rich Farmer$ realized they can finally start making their "buddies" into bacon. I will try to avoid laughing at you, the same way you laughed at others, but frankly, even though it is tragic, it will be a bit funny.

[pintobean]

583. I don't know why I bother reading your posts.

You rarely have a clue of what's going on.

[steve2470]

196. Best wishes to you, redqueen

Your posts were very informative and I know many will miss you.

[Laelth]

218. +1. Well said. n/t

-Laelth

[BainsBane]

198. When people enter threads to show their rude contempt for the person leaving

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:01 AM - Edit history (1)

All they do is expose their souls for all to see.

You would think the fact the person they so despise is leaving would be satisfaction enough. It isn't. They can't help but display the festering hatred that in fact has nothing to do with the target of their anger but is instead all about who they are as a person. Redqueen or anyone else they dislike leaving doesn't change that. RQ will be gone tomorrow, but they still wake up being who they are.

[Cha]

208. Well, done, BB.. Yes, they do.. I was just ruminating on that.. so much better

just to keep their opinion to themselves in that case because it just exposes their mean spirit instead of making the OP feel bad which I take it is their intent.

[Warren DeMontague]

199. Obviously, you and I have had our differences.

But I think over the years, DU has dug your contributions.

If you're really leaving, I think DU will be sad that you're outta here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

454. Agree. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

560. Couldn't have said it better.

[Cha]

204. Peace Love & Aloha, redqueen~

You take good care, too~

[Violet_Crumble]

209. Bye n/t

[jambo101]

210. Going to be tough

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:47 AM - Edit history (1)

With 110K posts over the course of 11 years it wont be easy to just walk away from this forum,, I had to do something similar on a forum i was on for a long time but due to overzealous moderation i had to leave, i still lurk over there and miss participating.
Is a lewd comic picture really worth ending your long stay on this forum?
I'd just make a post saying you over reacted and get back to posting your usual stuff that apparently every one enjoys.

[Notafraidtoo]

212. This site was destroyed by poor moderation.

Its full of right wing trolls, who are anti feminist, anti union and labor, pro NRA, pro military contractor, racist and climate change deniers. Some are paid by think tanks, others are members of foreign military and some are troll hobbyist, but none of it should have been accepted on a liberal site. I see a few trolls in this very post like Joe who I have watched spout right wing bullshit for over a year.
`
Wasn't always like this, not sure what happened, but a new well moderated Democratic underground is needed, so that liberal ideas can be discussed freely with out attacks from people that don't belong here and tombstones happen anytime an obvious troll like some in this post rears it's head.

[jambo101]

215. Full of rightwing trolls?

I havent been seeing too much in the way of rightwing trolls and i havent been here long enough to say whether the site has been destroyed, looks ok to me.
While the site seems to be populated predominantly by left wing ways of thinking i think it wouldnt be right to exclude rightwing ways of thinking as the forum is called Democratic Underground not Democrat Underground.

[JTFrog]

223. It probably looks ok to you because you haven't been here long.

This site has become inundated with rightwing trolls, MRA's and libertarians. The site was created to ESCAPE the crazy rightwingers and their unhinged "thinking" and policies. We aren't the Democrat Party. We are the Democratic Party. Hence, Democratic Underground. If you want to wallow in rightwing thinking, head on over to Free Republic or Discussionist.

[Violet_Crumble]

229. I dunno. People were saying the same sort of thing back in 2002...

There's always been a small number of any sort of bigot people can think of, but DU's never been full of them...

[Gormy Cuss]

297. It's full of them now.

DU is a starkly different space now than it was even in the post-Bush DU2 days. The hosting system with its prime directive of looking for reasons NOT to lock and the jury system where both alerters and jurors are free to act based on personal biases rather than an actual set of community standards have enabled this.
I like the concept of hosts acting in daylight (not happening anymore) and of a broad base of community members participating in the moderation via juries. I just don't think the current set up cultivates a place for lively yet civil discussion.

[Violet_Crumble]

472. I think it's even less of a problem now than it was on DU1 or 2...

I guess it all depends on how people define what a troll is. I think a troll is mainly a RWer or a bigot, but can sometimes be someone who's LW and so abrasive and combative that it's clear they're not at DU to play nice. I see a few of all types floating round DU3, but in general I think most DUers don't fall into any of those categories. Ones that do eventually get caught by admin, or MIRT earlier in their stay. It's kind of like the recent poll in GD about whether DUers thought anti-Semitism was pervasive at DU. While there were a few folk shown the door due to anti-Semitism, the vast majority of DUers aren't like that. Whether the trollery is down to being RW or being a racist, misogynist, anti-Semite, homophobe, transphobic or Islamophobic, eventually they reach the end of the line, something I'm positive from having been at DU2 didn't always happen there

[Heidi]

227. Here's the thing, jambo: You're wrong.

Two things:
1. You also haven't been here long enough to know (in comparison to DU1 and DU2) whether DU3 is full of right-wing trolls.

2. It's perfectly right for DU to exclude right-wing ways of thinking, and this is plainly explained in the DU Terms of Service:

Don't be a wingnut (right-wing or extreme-fringe).

Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here.

ETA: If you're looking for a conservatives vs. liberals thunderdome, allow me to recommend http://www.discussionist.com/. It might just be a perfect fit.

jambo101
215. Full of rightwing trolls?
While the site seems to be populated predominantly by left wing ways of thinking i think it wouldnt be right to exclude rightwing ways of thinking as the forum is called Democratic Underground not Democrat Underground.

[Violet_Crumble]

237. I've been here since DU1 and it's not full of trolls n/t

[boston bean]

254. In my opinion, it is. And I agree 100% with Heidi. nt.

[jambo101]

256. If the forum is just for Liberals

And the rules say that Then just delete and ban anyone who speaks otherwise. Although i dont see the logic of discussion if every one thinks the same way, i dont mind debating the rightwing opposition,its a way to show them the error of their ways...
As for the term Democratic? i thought it meant =

Democratic : of or relating to one of the two major political parties in the U.S.

And not a term solely synonymous with liberal ideology.
I havent been here long enough to know the meaning of DU1,2 and 3

Thanks for the link Heidi, i'll check it out.
Sorry for the thread drift..

[Tuesday Afternoon]

289. I wish we could pin this post at the top of GD. It should be reuqired reading by all new posters.

Excellent and Succinct. Thank you, Heidi.

[Warren DeMontague]

473. I agree. And here is an example of a right wing way of thinking on an issue:

“America is suffering a pandemic of harm from pornography. It contributes to misogyny and violence against women. It is a contributing factor to prostitution and sex trafficking”

....disagree?


Wonder whose quote that is?

[cyberswede]

474. RWers also say they support school vouchers so families can have a choice...

when the real reason for what they want isn't about giving families a choice at all.

Conservatives often present their ideas in a way that they think will garner support, because their real reasons would be roundly derided. Of course it's better to pretend you care about misogyny and violence against women, rather than to own up to the fact that you're a religious whackadoodle who thinks people should only have missionary sex to make babies.

[Warren DeMontague]

475. The point is, to say that anyone who doesn't lose their shit over porn, swimsuits, and

Spiderwoman's butt, isn't a "real liberal", and in fact is somehow echoing right wing views - is facile, flat out false, and in fact 180 degrees from the actual political reality.

[seabeyond]

478. how many timmmmmmmes have you told us we are rw fundamentalists. not to mention all the other names

[Warren DeMontague]

479. I'm talking about viewpoints, not people.

the theme, here, is how "Right wing viewpoints don't belong on DU" and the subtext is a desperate attempt to pretend that somehow thinking sexually explicit media is not a cultural crisis, is a "right wing viewpoint".

It's not, and no amount of demanding that it be taken as such, will make it one.

DU can survive disagreeing about guns, Israel, Obama, etc. but apparently it's too much that not everyone here agrees about spiderwoman's butt.

[seabeyond]

480. whatever warren...

[Violet_Crumble]

481. The answer to that is never. Next.... n/t

[seabeyond]

482. Seriously? Even this, you are gonna step in and answer for warren. Though there is no way you have

The answer cause it is not you making the statement and you do not know all things warren has said... You still feel the need to step in and throw out your best guess. Did you notice warren shifted to something else and did not deny it? Knowing warren as well as I, if he never did it or just once. He would be vocal in answering that question. Yet crickets, violet. That would be a clue in that you are way out of the park on this one. But... Yea... You tried, didn't you

[Violet_Crumble]

483. I noticed Wazza had already answered, but I don't mind pointing out the obvious...

I didn't realise there was some rule about replying to posts, and I'm most definitely not answering for him. I'm a big fan of his posts, read them all, and he's NEVER done that. Feel free to show links to where he has, because I know they don't exist...

also, who's this 'we' you talked about in yr first post? If 'we' are us, y'know, women and feminists, I'm not going to be very impressed at all...

[BainsBane]

484. All the time

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11142414
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=1717

I know he's equated me with the right dozens of times (because after all, the right cares so deeply about equality for women). It would seem impossible to miss, especially for someone who claims to read "everything" he writes.

[seabeyond]

487. Everything, ALL the time, best of pals, can even finish each other's sentences.

Thanks for the links. I wasn't gonna bother. After all what does it matter when a poster claims she has read everything, always. That is even too much for me.

I like you baine but not a chance in hell I am gonna read everything of your, for sure.

[Warren DeMontague]

509. June 30, 2012, i said that all the anti-porn "science" comes from the right.

And i wondered if people deeply invested in fighting a battle against porn might be disappointed if the one candidate making it a front burner issue dropped out of the presidential race. 2 years ago.


Clearly, a personal attack on YOU.


It's extra funny because not 5 minutes ago in GD someone tried to float some half-assed assertion that everyone who isn't up in arms about bikini pictures on magazine covers, is "echoing rush Limbaugh".

Which is how this subthread got here in the first place.

[BainsBane]

522. You link to Seabeyond in one of those posts

I did not claim those links were about me. That the reference to myself is in a separate paragraph demonstrates as much. Your response would suggest you had some unfamiliarity with structure of the English language, which I think we both know is not the case.

I could say a lot, but I will focus on one central point: Your continual references to the "science of objectification" or "science of porn" is tragically misinformed. Cultural analysis, gender studies, feminist studies, etc.. .do not pretend to be sciences. They are humanities. While the humanities and social sciences can and do overlap, scholars of gender studies are far more likely to be post-structuralists than empiricists or positivists. I can assure you from decades of personal experience, those academic departments are not populated with right-wingers. In fact, one would have to work very hard and go through department lists of many universities to find a single right-winger in any of those fields. I myself don't know of a single one. Perhaps if you actually read what "feminists" actually wrote instead of relying on guilt by association and strawman logical fallacies, you would know the basis of such critiques. Alas, you diligently avoid doing anything but trivializing "feminists" arguments. (note the use of quotes around "feminists" in keeping with your own usage, to denote the faux "feminists" as opposed to the real feminists whom you find acceptable. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025366495#post141 ). That is why discussion with you on such issues is a lost cause.

As an aside, I did start to do a search and had a laugh that you just recently discovered the existence of a current of separatist feminism from the 1970s. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=4313 Naturally you didn't recognize it as such but rather invoked them as just another object of a ridicule. Amazing how some men think everything having to do with sex falls under their dominion, even when that sex is between women. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=1967 http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=1861
Pro tip: separatist feminists are lesbians. They don't have to like sex with men. Once again we see the mantra of women's sexual choice only runs in the way, toward choices that make them more sexually available to men.

But then, for some of us sexual choice runs neither way, which I myself discovered when having a discussion about PIV sex with a separatist feminist, and one of your compadres insisted my "sexcapades" didn't interest him. http://www.democraticunderground.com/125544521
As shocking as it is to imagine, even "prudes" like me have sex.

[Warren DeMontague]

523. Ive explained to you why the use of quotes in that post doesnt mean what you think it does.

That you continue to try to hammer on it as if it proves something, while digging around desperately in 2+ year old posts for a gotcha moment to prove i'm personally attacking people here- when i'm not- only proves the vacuity of your case, such as it is.

I'll say it again- if the quotes in that post meant what you seem to think they do, then i had to have been calling the people who disagree with you on these points "not real feminists", too.

That wouldnt make any sense, and the reason is, that's not what the quote usage meant.

[BainsBane]

524. Of that entire post

you focus on a parenthetical statement as a means of deflection. That link to Seabeyond clearly shows you equate "feminists" with right-wingers. The fact is you do not pay attention to the substance of arguments and for that reason you refer to them as "censorship" and make irrelevant points about "right-wing science of porn." You insist porn and prostitution are valid choices but ridicule separatists sexual choices and the theories they articulate in relation to that choice.

You use feminists in quotes similarly in an entry in your journal that I cannot link to because the forum is not public access. It is in fact a common tactic used by some around here to disparage feminists, often HOF members. http://www.democraticunderground.com/111411793#post7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111411793#post15

Edit: from you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11147468
Here you describe "actual" feminists from others who don't focus on the stuff you think they are supposed to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=6777
Again: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=2560

What would we do without you to tell us what "actual" feminism is and what we are allowed to care about without being deemed a not- "actual" "feminist"?

Of course there is no such thing as patriarchy. Men declaring what real feminism is just . . .what exactly?


As for digging around in two year old stuff, they turned up at the top of the page when I used the search bar above. Naturally you want to deny that it had anything to do with you since it was two years ago. More deflection, and more of refusal to engage.

[Warren DeMontague]

526. Since we're digging into the archives, sea was posting "science" by Judith Reisman

Who was claiming that looking at dirty pictures produces something called "addictive erotoxins" in the brain and as such need to regulated like heroin ZOMG

Get it? "Science"

Oh, and while you're at it, google reisman.

I'm not denying, i'm just not playing. i've said all I need to say, specifically that not freaking out over sports illustrated bikinis or spiderwomans butt is not a "right wing viewpoint that should be forbidden on DU", no matter how many times some folks may insist that it is.

And that's the gist of what's taking place, here.

Edit, at least you found a couple of posts that actually came from me when complaining about my posts. Thats a start, i guess.

Still, there are no personal attacks in there, also i suspect maybe you dont understand what the word "most" means. It does not mean "all"

[BainsBane]

528. No personal attacks?

They show utter disrespect for feminists who disagree with you on issues related to THEIR rights. How dare they care about issues that don't pass your approval? Don't they know it is you and not they who determines what rights and concerns of theirs matter?

You are the one who runs around posting pictures of Ed Meese and insisting people who "freak out" over objectification equate to right-wingers. That you continue to trivialize the argument shows you make no effort to understand. Now you act like you are so oppressed. Yeah, poor you. Something once said something to you that you have said 100 or more times. Boo, fucking, hoo. How awful of that person not to realize they are dealing with a superior human being. The audacity.

BTW, the issues you focus on as "actual feminism" are typical concerns for liberal feminists who focus on gradual change through the law. There are a good many feminists to the left of liberal feminists and even conservative feminists to the right. Somehow it never occurred to me to declare what "actual" feminism is, but then of course I am but a mere mortal.

[Warren DeMontague]

531. When have I ever asserted I'm oppressed?

Some people here take themselves waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously ... but i like to think, in my better moments, i'm not one of them.

[RiffRandell]

537. I have not seen that.

Please share a link; I'd love a good laugh.

[seabeyond]

486. Sheeeeit, lmao, that is about the only thing he does post and you read each and every one?

Jump in compare to dworkin with a picture, fainting couch with a picture, meese with a picture or any other rw'er. He like to use his picture for emphasis of insult.

You call him wazza? K. You read every single post of wazza's and you just nevah picked up on his theme. Do tell

[Violet_Crumble]

488. sheeeit, lmao. I must be reading posts from some other Wazza then...

Coz the Wazza I'm talking about, the one that you were replying to, is a bit of a multi-tasker, so much so that I've seen him express opinions on a bunch of things that I *gasp* disagree with. The most obvious one being that he has pretty shit taste in music, and I do suspect that if we got to talking about the I/P conflict at any length, he'd whip out some meme involving me and Hamas, and I'd respond by posting a clip I managed to dig up of Netanyahu singing 'Asshole' by Denis Leary. So we'll never talk about that. Ever.

Every single post? That's one mighty big and brave call there considering it's so very very easy to prove wrong.

Yes, I called him Wazza. Why? There's Wazzas and Kazzas and Shazzas and Kezzas. Not so many Bazzas as that's just not very popular anymore...

[seabeyond]

489. I am not seeing the relevance of any of that story telling to you claiming

Warren never called us fundies and rw'ers. A consistency of his. As a fan, it should be clear to you. So just another whatever

[Violet_Crumble]

490. You've yet to come up with a single link to where he's called you a RWer...

Because it's really not nice to accuse people of things that they didn't do. There's a difference between saying a viewpoint is one held by RWers and calling you as an individual a RWer.

[seabeyond]

491. Ahhhhhh... Fug, lol. Too funny. Done

[Violet_Crumble]

494. No, the post yr replying to wasn't funny. The one I did before it was...

Is there some two-minute lag thing happening? Anyway, it would have been even funnier if you could have finished it up with a meme or something...

[seabeyond]

495. ah, again. so. you decided what i think funny, too. sorry, that has me laughing.... too

[Violet_Crumble]

496. Nah, just telling you which one was and wasn't. Is there a problem with that?

I thought you were done. If yr not, even one of all those many posts where yr compared to a RWer would be interesting to see.

[Warren DeMontague]

508. Wazza!

I like it.

[Warren DeMontague]

511. Lets not revise the history, eh? Because i have a very good memory.

What happened was, you were promoting "research" by people like Judith Reisman, and posting links to groups like "the lighted candle society" (trustee, Edwin Meese III) and what -I- did was point exactly who those folks are and who they're aligned with.

Anyone curious can google those names and see exactly what i'm talking about.

[BainsBane]

544. And there we have evidence for what you deny

what -I- did was point exactly who those folks are and who they're aligned with. .

While linking to Sea and mocking her. Guilt by association.

A number of right-wingers on a certain notorious website have expressed views on identical to yours the sex industry and porn. They have even sung your praises. Should I claim you are allied with them? I will not do that because it isn't true, no more than Sea is allied with Ed Meese. It is a guilt by association logical fallacy as outlined in the book you were handing out as Christmas presents around here. It is a cheap tactic.

Several of the other times you pointed to certain feminists expressing the same ideas as right wingers, there was no discussion of Judith Reisman. There was instead concern about rape porn as contributing to rape culture. To denounce that as akin to right wingers is dishonest. Right wingers don't give a shit about rape culture or women's rights.

[Warren DeMontague]

548. The difference is, i'm not linking to any right wingers from DU.

It's not "guilt by association" if these are the sources she's actively promoting.

In fact, the situation was precisely the opposite- no one was SUPPOSED to point out that these guys were major religious right theocrats (and, in the case of Reisman, a particularly noxious anti-gay bigot as well) because of their "important work" on the topic of smut.

Your second paragraph is another classic example of you making up an statement i never said, and then proceeding to argue against it.

Speaking of bad arguments.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

502. Do you agree with Rick Santorum's quote?

Pretty simple question.

[seabeyond]

503. oh. you got me with your gotcha moment. grabbing heart. falling backwards.

are you suggesting that no one should talk about the known harms of porn toward men, women in it, women in general, marriages, children, sciety as a whole?

is that agreeing with santorum? you tell me. it seems the suggestion, and i did not think i had to waste my time with the obvious, that would be telling a whole lot of people to shut up, and they do not have the right to exercise their first amendment. would i be incorrect?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

506. So you think it's a "pandemic"?

Look, I hate to break it to you, but we here at DU love telling right-wing Republicans on a whole host of issues to go fuck themselves. If you don't like that, because you happen to tangentially agree with Ricky Boy, well, fine, but you're going to have to get over it. It's simply not misogynist to think he's a fucking fascist who deserves to be mocked at every turn for his backwards views.

Santorum's solutions....and judgments of people who don't agree with him are beyond odious. THAT is the issue here. I'm sorry if you get itchy just because you happen to agree with him on this ONE (I hope) issue, but as far as I'm concerned he can go fuck himself. He's a fascist right-wing piece of shit.

[seabeyond]

510. do i think there are issues with porn? ya. you want to tie it to ricky boy, me to ricky boy....

i do not care.

[Warren DeMontague]

512. The point is, it's ludicrous to assert that people who dont have problems with adult material,

For adults, are somehow espousing a "right wing viewpoint" on DU that needs to be against the rules.

And that's what's happening here. Not everyone on DU showed the apparently necessary level of concern and horror at a limited edition alternate cover for spiderwoman 1, and because of that DU is a horrible swirling vortex of woman-hate.

[seabeyond]

513. no. that was not prouds point. thank you very much for your help.

[Warren DeMontague]

514. Oh, you're ever so welcome.

I'm always here to help!

For instance, here- this is the beginning of the current chain and subthread-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5454454

[seabeyond]

515. proud asked if i aligned myself with santorum. then asked again. that is what i addressed.

[Warren DeMontague]

517. And the santorum quote came up originally as exhibit A. In the argument that

To argue that being in favor of free expression for consenting adults- or even to think that sexually explicit material is not a big deal or culture crisis- is somehow a "right wing viewpoint", is ludicrous and completely contrary to reality.

It's not. Three days ago someone here tried to claim that everyone who doesn't freak out over the sports illustrated swimsuit issue, is on the "side" of rush limbaugh. That's insanity.

[hifiguy]

521. Indeed it is.

Batshit insanity. Bachmann-style insanity inverted.

[seabeyond]

527. what is insane is you continued misrepresentation of any given argument and why most do not bother.

[Warren DeMontague]

530. So it wasnt the spiderwoman butt thread that led to this current kerfluffle?

[seabeyond]

532. no. it was not. nor is the si issue what you present, though you have been corrected a number of

times.

i hear i have a jury out on calling you insane. that too would be a misrepresentation of what was said.

[Warren DeMontague]

533. Hmmm. Wasnt my alert.

Like the song says "well the doctor call me crazy, some sez i am, some sez i aint"



Edited to add: see, that's why you should take me off your blacklist. No way would i vote to hide that one.

[seabeyond]

535. bummer, only one juror whose intent was to get me kicked off. alerter, certainly misrepresented.

dontcha think?

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Calling Warren insane is a personal attack, not to mention the insult to those who suffer with mental health issues.
hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 30, 2014, 07:21 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Excuse me? She called a line of reasoning "insane." That might or not be a valid assessment, argue it in the thread. Oh, and do understand that "insane" is in common usage and likely to remain so. This is my polite reply. You don't want to see the first one I made.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm ok with the colloquial "insane"
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: bye
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't want to leave an explanation, but this entire thread is ridiculous, much less this dopey subthread. Sheesh
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ugh...she called his point of view insane. Alert had become a tool of the intellectually lazy
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

did i call you insane warren? was was sure you too used insane, and i conveniently picked up from you, mimicking. i will have to check. i wonder if the same alerter, alerted on you too. good luck with your jury. fingers crossed for your survival.

[Warren DeMontague]

536. No, neither of us called the other insane.

But then i said something in the spiderwoman thread about nicki minaj, being timely and current events-ish, and someone alerted on that.

(The alert failed 7-0, a fact that I imagine bothered the alerter -whose identity i can only speculate upon- immensely)

Point being, i guess you never know what someone is going to hit the button over. Of all the posts of mine i might think someone could alert on, that one it would have never even crossed my mind.

Weird.

[seabeyond]

538. did they LIE in the alert to get a hide?

[Warren DeMontague]

547. If you consider a whole bunch of incoherent bargle about how i like to "spit in peoples'

Faces" as justification for an alert on a post which had nothing to do with, anything, really....

Then yeah, actually, they did lie in the alert. I don't "spit in peoples' faces". Someone clearly has a Montana-sized issue with me, and i'm sure they were mad that they couldn't land a single juror to agree with their assessment of what a horrible human being i am.

But i already told you, that wasn't my alert, and if i had been on the jury, i wouldn't have hidden it. I don't vote based on personality, but rather content of post, and on the rare occasion where i get called to a jury where i think i might not be able to be impartial, i bow out of the jury service.

[sufrommich]

539. "Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT Explanation: bye"

You really should alert on #3s response,that's an obvious attempt give you another vacation,regardless of the asinine alert,they have an agenda.Send it to the admins.

[seabeyond]

541. yup. alerters have been BUSY today, oh and last night. nt

[BainsBane]

549. "fingers crossed for your survival"

[BainsBane]

542. I doubt Warren was the alerter, Sea

While I have my disagreements with him, I don't see him doing petty alerts. I'm guessing it was one of your usual fan club. Poor Juror 3 haz a sad now.

[seabeyond]

545. ya. i pretty much know who it is. on par. have had this exact type of alert in the past. nt

[hifiguy]

518. To which of his many imbecilic quotes are you referring?

That is a lot of stoopid to sort through.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

504. It's the "libertarian viewpoint" according to some

Whatever the fuck that means.

[merrily]

273. Please read the terms of service. This site is not for Republicans.

"Democrat" is the noun and, when capitalized, "Democratic" is the adjective form of "Democrat," as in Democratic Underground is a place for members of the Democratic Party to post.

Usually, Republicans use "Democrat" as both a noun and an adjective, the latter being intended to put down Democrats, as in the the "Democrat Party," but it is disrespectful.

google ratfucking Rove

Just don't ask me why the New Democrat Caucus was named as it was by Democrats. I cannot explain that.

[raven mad]

214. You'll be missed.

I'm fairly new, but have enjoyed reading your posts. Best of all good things to you.

[JTFrog]

216. You deserve better.

We all do.

This is no longer a liberal progressive website. But I guess it pays the bills. I feel sick having donated to this site for so many years.

[boston bean]

217. I will miss you rq.

I do hope that you come back at some point.

I get it.

[Bobbie Jo]

220. Damn

DU just won't be the same without you. I sincerely hope that you will reconsider.

Take a break and come on back, your voice is part of this place.

[Vattel]

225. Best wishes redqueen

[riqster]

233. All the best to you. I hope you keep fighting the good fight in whatever arena suits you.

[hack89]

238. Take care - you will be missed

I hope you find a more supporting internet home.

[ismnotwasm]

240. Well I knew it was coming

I also know you have other, interesting places to post--so leaving a place called DemocraticUnderground isn't stopping you doing a goddamn thing. (thought I'd clarify that)In fact, I have places I use that seem far more productive. But this is what it is. A discussion board.The silly rabbits will stay, or as is the case lately get PPR'd, I do think election season will make it more interesting.
As far as the bitter ones, well they'll stay bitter. The same with the disturbed and/or ignorant

Be happy be well. Peak in and have a good laugh now and again.

[adirondacker]

261. I don't aways agree with your premises, but I have Learned a Lot from your posts and posititions

on Feminist perspectives. You are a treasure here, and I hope you reconsider after a brief break.
TC

[seabeyond]

272. a treasure. yes she is. we have lost so many on du. it makes du less.

she and a couple others are the academic, intellectual of the issue which i personally really value. redq knows her stuff. even though i am not always on board exactly where she is going with the issue, at that point it opens my eyes to see beyond my limited perspective, allowing me to bottomline at least, more informed.

at no point should any of us expect to agree with another in all things. that is cool. i hear ya.

me? i am not accepting her walk. lol. we have lost too many that bring something to this board. i do not want to lose another.

[adirondacker]

287. Trying to find fairness and equality in the nurture and nature realm of reality is a daunting task.

I think both Bigtree and Redqueen are passionate about their issues and bring important knowledge and insight into the discussions(along with yourself). I also think there is an attention burnout phase where the students (DU readers) need an occasional recess that both posters might want to keep aware of. (I know, there is the Lounge)

I've gotten caught up on issues in the past (income inequality) and felt pushed out by the lack of response and backlash from those that didn't agree with my positions. I decided to walk away from DU for a while (2005-2012), read what others have to say, and listen and learn from the discussions. I'm becoming more of a socialist as time rolls on and digging my heels in deeper.

I hope both return after a short break because I think both issues (race and gender) are tremendously important ones.

Peace

[seabeyond]

291. "I hope both return after a short break" agreed. having many forced breaks,

i will say that it is ALL good. i learned how to do du thru pms. it has been a blast in its own way. i get much more expressive posts in return, kinda like yours, right here. and THIS is where the fun of du is. right here. being able to get past the barrier, or battle, to an actual conversation in interacting, worth and validity.

as i have said in this thread, and will continue to repeat, cause it is an important issue. i simply do not accept their walking away, lol. i am approaching it differently. free choice. take a break, ... then jump back in.

because

it is that important. as we get the same example from ferguson. it has gotten to a point where the conversation is not easily dying, hidden, or dismissed, and NOT justified. that is a good thing for me.

what bigtree did for me, while i could not post, at a very emotional, passionate time, was.... speak for me.

i want to to say.... sing it brothah... i hear you.... i love you... hugs. i feel you feeling. and i am right there with you.

but.... i also walked away from du while bigtree was upset. and the two walking. i was walking myself.

at that point, i said. nope. ugly does not get to win.

again

agreeing/not agreeing/agreeing to disagree.

[hrmjustin]

270. I shall miss you and I hope you reconsider.

[LadyHawkAZ]

288. Peace, rq. n/t

[DiverDave]

302. meh

really? you think your important enough? who the....ah screw it

[BainsBane]

306. Yes, as a matter of fact she is

and the 300 plus posts show that a number of people are interested one way or another.

[DiverDave]

439. Well, that told ME.

now go back to what you all were doing.

[Sheldon Cooper]

312. Evidently, she's important enough for a man like yourself to take the time to respond.

[seabeyond]

329. more important was the rhythm. respond, insult, dismiss. interesting. nt

[HERVEPA]

429. If you're going to insult someone, might want to use the correct spelling.

It's "you're", not "your"

[LexVegas]

313. I see from this thread that sexists and assholes are happy.

Wish you would reconsider giving them that kind of satisfaction.

[Gormy Cuss]

318. This thread is flypaper for the sexists and other assholes. n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

371. And one just got caught. Tripped up in their own web of deceit. n/t

[seabeyond]

331. i do not know. seeing the names that are good with redq leaving, and their comments

is what made me to decide not to leave. so. works for me.

[In_The_Wind]

334. Welcome back

[seabeyond]

342. thank you

[Kali]

349. looks about right to me

[Kali]

359. huh?

poster sees a lot of assholes and sexists outing themselves in this thread and you seem to not believe it.

[Kali]

369. even more strange

I was just replying to the post above this and it disappeared

In_The_Wind
360. I haven't read all the post in this thread.

I was going to say: "just assumed the noob was full of shit? strange"

I guess it was too early or not enough coffee or something.

[seabeyond]

372. lol. ya... i am with the smilie.... i am confused. hope all is well with you.

you are sounding good, healthy. in prime form. i can never see you as down, being the utter epitome of the ruggedly awesome woman you are. you do not do frail, well. or at all. lol. are you back on the horse?

[Kali]

376. oh hell no I am not frail! hahahhahaa

I simply have a largish hole in one leg that prevents me from doing a few things. if this were Kansas or some place with no trees or bushes I probably WOULD be back on a horse.

the biggest pain in the ass is not being able to swim. otherwise I am fine AND I have an excuse not to clean the chicken coop or do anything particularly dirty (if I don't feel like it )

nobody around here would fall for me being "frail"

and welcome back to you too!

[seabeyond]

379. you go, woman. having grown up in az desert, i so love the rattlers story.

cheers....

[BainsBane]

440. How aobut a meet up at the ranch some time?

Seriously, sounds like you have an interesting life.

[Android3.14]

315. Will we see an example of eReincarnation or a return from the dead?

You don't break a posting habit in the 100k range with a faux terse exit.

[Eleanors38]

327. Good luck. I didn't like your approach, but you tried.

Just an observation from a fat old white guy:
IMO, Feminism, or just the notion of woman, is changing far faster than the both of us can keep up with. I long ago resigned myself to listening to what women say, esp. in social groups and settings. For the most part, they seem confident, strong, capable, and they know their way around men. And for the most part they don't brook much talk about the feminism that was advanced in the 60s & 70s, esp. the stuff that comes from academic settings. All that was before their time.

Frankly, they may not be listening to either of us.

[seabeyond]

336. the reality is. we are both raising teenagers. it is our roles, as parents.

i with boys, redq with girls. that alone allows a lot of insight. combined with the importance of educating, encouraging, listening to our children we work on being informed what is happening in the world. our advantage is, regardless how some on du want to place us in second wave, the 60's adn 70's, the would be incorrect. they would be basing their opinion on an incorrect caricature. just another many jobs we have is to clearly define who we are, and not let a board of few, define us.

[WCLinolVir]

366. " I long ago resigned myself to listening to what women say"

Was it hard?

[Eleanors38]

467. Not at all. The lag-time for deciphering takes all the drama out.

[WCLinolVir]

501. I don't know who I feel sorrier for, you or your wife.

[Eleanors38]

540. She'll let you know.

[nolabear]

335. It's like watching a lovely city crumble. Go in peace, redqueen.

I'll miss your fierce fire.

[JohnnyLib2]

355. Oh, good grief!

Best wishes

[Zorra]

356. So sorry to see you go, rq.

You are one of my favorite all time DU posters. Your persistent insistence on advancing the place of women on the planet, despite constant opposition from misogynists, and others, who did/do not have the experience and/or perception skills to understand many of the ideas and societal conditions that you posted about here. Thanks for all you did here, and I hope you come back to DU some day.

Walk in beauty.

[Luminous Animal]

358. I will miss you very much.

[TeeYiYi]

381. I hope you change your mind...

The Spiderwoman cover was crass; and it wasn't even good art from a design standpoint. I should've said something sooner.

My feminist proclivities went by the wayside after college. I rely on other feminists to do the heavy lifting for me.

I respect the stand you take on my behalf. We may not always agree on everything but that's beside the point.

TYY

[msanthrope]

418. Just take a break. You've got 100k posts here---shame to walk now. nt

[jambo101]

424. It was just a comic

I cant believe some one with 100K+ posts spanning 11yrs is chucking it in because of some picture of a cartoon character, did i miss something?As pretty much all Spiderwoman portrayals are rather provocative

[link:https://www.google.ca/search?q=spider+woman&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zoj_U5rIJo2dygT4vYDYBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=768&bih=484|

[msanthrope]

426. Honestly, I have no idea what the reason is, nor do I particularly care. nt

[seabeyond]

431. except you have been told it is not "just about a comic cover". you choose to define her walking

out as being "just about a comic cover". that does not make it true or factual. and when people tell you otherwise, i would think you would move off that statement.

[NuclearDem]

505. No it wasn't.

It was the last straw in a very long line of misogynist bullshit that gets tolerated here.

[AuntPatsy]

423. This site needs you more than you need it, I hope you reconsider

[warrprayer]

434. We started out by butting heads

then we started laughing, and found common ground.

What to say?

109,226 posts.

Been here since 2003.

I respect you and your passion for your principles.

A sad day on D.U..

[Marrah_G]

446. Just take a break for a bit and then come back Red

When you do, make liberal use of the ignore function and DU will be a happy place for you again.

Like siblings, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't, but I do know we are on the same side, fighting the same fight. I'll miss reading your words while you are away.

[seaglass]

451. rq I will miss your voice but I completely understand why you would find DU intolerable.

I appreciate your spirit and tenacity and hope that you won't hesitate to come back if you have a change of heart.

to you

[CreekDog]

469. Redqueen and I were in a big battle a couple years ago

But I wish she wouldn't leave.

And I am angered that the usual small minority of misogynists are driving her and other longtime supporters of liberal causes away from this place.

And I am angered at the rationalizations that justify silencing and hiding the opinion of women, feminists and people of color here as somehow the will of this community, while this supposed system that represents us can't hide a freaking post that says most slaves were treated well.

I'm tired of being told that is our will and our community. It isn't.

It's a reflection of a gamed system that is so flawed that it says that a liberal website doesn't have liberal values.

You want to know why they hid the number of times jurors served? Because you could see how many times a longtime troll served.

That's why. CYA.

Fix the problem? No.

Redqueen, we don't always agree but it's crap that you're being driven off, with others, by the people that are driving you off.

[JaydenD]

552. ''You want to know why they hid the number of times jurors served?''

ohhhh...
I see. All those times that people were posting and judging in 'good faith' wasn't all that good and faithful afterall, was it?

[Mc Mike]

470. Red, you are always worth reading.

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 10:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Smart and good hearted, and you serve a just cause well. Take care.

[R B Garr]

471. Wow, this is really a shame. I hope you reconsider.

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm bummed! On boards like this, there are usually way more people who lurk and don't participate than those who do. I considered you to be a real leader and subject matter expert on feminism, just as there are others who gravitate towards other subjects concerning ACTUAL liberal causes, women's issues being one of them. That's why I really valued your input and activism. I learned a lot from your posts.

I see the way the detractors just keep picking away pretending not to understand anything and trying to minimize your input, but if I can see through it, so can many others. If I want to read little boy humor and snark, I'd listen to the Howard Stern show or some other rot like that. There's some football message boards I used to read about the team(s) I cared about, and I swear the college football players (seen in the media, not on the boards) were more mature than the creepy men posting about them. Of course there were really great people on those boards, but my point is that I would expect porn-y, vulgar dreck from them considering that environment, but here it's really a shame to see.

Well, here's a candle lit until you return.

[Liberal_in_LA]

476. kick back to the top

[Corey_Baker08]

477. The Bashing Of Democrats On DU Is Getting Disgusting...

this is democraticunderground.com, so for all I care anyone that continually bashes a Democrat is not a Democrat and does not belong on this site, Ive grown up on this site and Ive never seen it this bad

[jambo101]

485. Wheres the mods?

If people are bashing democrats on this forum and rules dictate its a Democrats only forum why arent the mods deleting and banning these bashers?
Also is taking these supposed rightwing bashers to task in debate not an option?

[BainsBane]

493. there are no moderators

There haven't been any for three years. There are juries.

[jambo101]

497. I'll presume

These juries are leftwing orientated and if some rightwinger is making attacks personal or otherwise he can be dealt with in some fashion or whats the point of the jury?, If trolls and rightwingers are supposedly running rampant on the forum then reporting these offending posts to the jury is in order,if they dont want to do anything about it then who ya gonna call?
Perhaps our op would still be here had her problems been reported and then been taken care of.

[BainsBane]

500. How can you know so little about the site you post on?

Are you saying you have never served on a jury? They reflect community standards, which is whatever the jurors in question want it to be. The fact is sexism does not come entirely from the right.

"Reported and taken care of" by whom? Juries vote to leave or hide. Occasionally the administrators will ban someone who is particularly egregious.

Why are you involved in a meta discussion when you clearly have no familiarity with how the site works? What is the point?

[jambo101]

519. I've never served on a jury.

Last edited Sat Aug 30, 2014, 05:17 PM - Edit history (2)

I just tuned into this topic because a longterm member is outta here because of a cartoon pic of spider womans butt was shown, through out the conversation allegations have been stated that the forum isnt what it once was and is now full of rightwing trolls running rampant,If the mod team or jury in this case can do nothing or choose to accept status quo
Then thats the way it is.
Obviously by engaging in this discussion i apparently have no familiarity of how this site works, i thought it was a discussion forum,i'm discussing.
Where am i going wrong?

OK i've been doing some research on this "Meta discussion"business.
http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18

I'll have to read through this explanation a few times to differentiate between normal forum discussion under general discussion and this meta discussion.Perhaps meta discussions should be noted as such or have their own forum..

[BainsBane]

543. I am not saying you don't have a right to discuss

I am saying your comments about "reporting" the misogyny and having it dealt with don't conform to how the site actually works. It's mistaken to assume there is some sort of benevolent presence that takes care of injustices. The site is effectively controlled by the jury system, which reflects the views of the seven people on that jury.

[Logical]

516. "continually bashes a Democrat"

Define "bashing". Disagreeing?

And link to the posts you think are always bashing. I would love to see them.

[Corey_Baker08]

554. No Lets Just Day For 1 Example Calling Our President A War Monger...

As well as the consistent bashing of Hillary Clinton accusing her of everything from being a closet Republican, a war monger, the worst SOS ever and a feminazi just to quote numerous posts...

[Union Scribe]

580. Someone here called Clinton a "feminazi"?

You wouldn't happen to have a link would you?

[hlthe2b]

498. I understand....

I'm saddened and hope you will return in the future. But, take care of yourself, redqueen. You are a fighter for change and we surely need them.

[Arugula Latte]

499. I am very sorry to see you go, redqueen.

You added a much needed voice to this forum and I will miss you.

[malaise]

507. Sad

[GP6971]

546. Very sad indeed. n /t

[sufrommich]

525. Please know that you will be missed,redqueen. nt

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

550. I really liked Redqueen, I admired her

even though I might have disagreed with her often. One of the last exchanges I had with her involved the story of parents who had left their child in a hot car where it died. I criticized those parents and Redqueen attacked me for being anti-Mexican. I never clicked the link to the story to understand that those parents were Hispanic. I didn't attack those parents because of who they were but because of what they had done. I was especially dismayed that some of her friends seemed to appear out of nowhere to support her, even where I didn't feel it was justified such as in this instance. I did think that Redqueen was often over-sensitive to some liberal sacred cows, especially seeing misogyny everywhere, where it existed in disgusting examples as where it also did not exist.

Be that as it may, Redqueen was a great liberal. She often called people out on their prejudices. I'm an old guy from the 60s who doesn't always see the error of his ways and Redqueen often made me think. Even where I felt she was wrong, I admired her courage for standing behind her convictions. How may of us here have the courage to truly voice what we feel at all times? I'll bet it's not that many. We need people who have a strong point of view here as opposed to luke warm liberals. Redqueen was an important part of this site. She was important in giving this site the full breadth and scope it needs. It takes all kinds in the liberal community to keep each other honest. Redqueen did her part, a very important part. She will be missed. I'll bet she doesn't realize how much she will be missed, even among those who sometimes disagreed with her. And what a great user name!

[nomorenomore08]

562. +1

(And then some.)

[seabeyond]

563. i remember that. and my own experience.

and i remember redq was the only one that jumped in and took a closer look at the story. often i will read only what is provided, and more often i do not say anything, so i learned thru your experience, lol, on that one. but, because she is so reasoned and just i did go into the article and read it. got a couple other articles. and saw the situation in a totally different lite than what was being presented in the OP. and she did end up being correct.

because of her forceful voice, she made me go a step further, cause i trust her in her evaluation of a situation.

i have seen her be wrong also. once realized, she will be the first to step up.

i value that.

[GoneOffShore]

553. And scene. Cut, Check the gate. Good? OK - print, that's a wrap.

Fade to black.

Roll credits (if there are any).

[jambo101]

555. Is there a point to posting you are leaving the forum

And not giving any related information on why you are leaving the forum?
Redqueen with 110K posts i'm sure people will miss your presence on the forum but i'm sure most of us havent a clue as to why you've left the forum.

[Violet_Crumble]

558. Where can I advance order the sequel? n/t

[JTFrog]

561. Bless your heart.

[seabeyond]

565. so clever. ya. nothing to see folks

[boston bean]

572. There isn't anything clever about it. It's just nastiness. nt

[seabeyond]

573. no. nothing clever. didnt bother with sarcasm tag. nt

[pintobean]

576. lol. That didn't last long.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=139846

Note: That page is made available by the DU admin for all members to see.

[pintobean]

568. I laughed, Violet. /nt

[Violet_Crumble]

579. I'm glad. Not sure what the angry responses were about, but can't please everyone n/t

[blackspade]

577. I'm sorry to see you go.

Take care.

[MadrasT]

581. Be well, redqueen.

I totally get it.