Re Dallas: There is still ONE contact who is running around (Updated: found him)

[kestrel91316]

not letting authorities check his temperature and health status consistently. This ONE PERSON could singlehandedly cause this whole thing to blow up into a disaster in the unlikely event that he comes down with Ebola.

There is no way to limit his contacts when he runs hither and thither. That makes tracing of all of HIS contacts more difficult.

The police are on the ground looking for him and when they find him he will be secured. He is considered in the low risk group.

It only takes one.

ETA: He is homeless per Dallas authorities. As such, IMHO, he should have been secured on Day One. If this gets into the homeless population there will be no containing it.

[valerief]

1. "We got this. Move along. Nothing to see, folks. Zero chance. We've done this before.

We know what we're doing. Don't panic. In fact, don't even pay attention. Go shopping."

[TwilightGardener]

2. Wonder how many public restrooms he's used? That's the real fear, IMO. That's where

the rest of us would most likely come into contact with his piss, shit, and vomit IF he's infected. Or worse, he's just doing it on the streets somewhere. How did they even know about this homeless guy coming into contact with Mr. Ebola?

[Bluenorthwest]

3. According to the OP he is very active, 'running around hither and tither'. Sick people don't run

hither and tither. To be contagious with Ebola you have to be symptomatic. If he's so fucking active, he's not sick.

[TwilightGardener]

4. You can be symptomatic and still get around, for a least a few days.

It's not like you are totally stopped in your tracks--and since he's homeless, he doesn't exactly have a couch and someone to run to Walgreen's for him and bring him soup. It's unlikely he's infected, but it's still not a good situation.

[JDPriestly]

5. If he gets sick, he will probably not get medical attention. He will not check himself into an

emergency room. If he dies on the street, those who pick up his body will be exposed to his illness.

We need a) universal insurance even for homeless people; b) quarantine procedures that work quickly and effectively in times of potential epidemics; c) better homeless services, and d) a lot of other things, but let's start with a), b) and c) in Dallas.

Isn't Texas one of the "We know better. . . . Not going to sign up for federal aid for the expansion of Medicaid because we don't like our president" states?

Texas. Let it secede. We would we better off without that state. I'm joking but sometimes that's the way I feel.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. Yes all of that is true but it is still not exactly accurate nor responsible to paint images of

virulent, contagious people running around the town, using lots of facilities while contaminated. This image is painted in order to argue that he should have been arrested at once, or 'secured' as the OP puts it. Means 'lock him down '. If anyone wishes to call for arrest and detention of others, I expect meticulous language lacking in all hyperbole to be employed to support such calls.

[kestrel91316]

8. See the post below this for the link.

CDC and TX PH have to be quietly having nervous breakdowns over this guy, praying he doesn't develop a fever. Homeless dude crapping and puking in the streets among other homeless dudes, leaving virus all over the environment, god knows where, is the nightmare they really fear. And no way to reliably trace his contacts.

[Little Star]

6. Is this the same person?.....

Officials look for homeless person described as possible contact with Dallas Ebola patient

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/278165511.html

This is not good.

[kestrel91316]

7. That's him.

[cwydro]

9. Whoa.

Not good.

[B2G]

10. I'm reading on another site he was in the same ambulance as Duncan

Not sure how reliable it is, so I'm not posting a link.

If true, I'm guessing he was transported after Duncan, before the ambulance was take out of service.

Will post more if I find a reliable source.

[herding cats]

11. He was transported after Mr Ducan

Dr. David Lakey, commissioner of the Texas Department of State Health Services, said no additional Ebola cases have been reported, and that all people who have had contact with Duncan have been identified — and that includes a homeless man who was transported in the same ambulance after Duncan was taken to Presbyterian on September 26.
http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/health/2014/10/04/ebola-briefing-cdc-frieden-lakey-jenkins/16714971/

It's not been reported what day he rode in it though. Duncan was transported on Sunday the 26th and the ambulance was removed from service the following Tuesday.

Another article about the homeless person being sought.

Police seek man who rode in Ebola patient's ambulance

[kestrel91316]

12. He was transported in the ambulance after Duncan. It had no doubt

had a cursory "cleaning" by the crew, but if they suspected Ebola they might have been scared and done a halfway job. Then homeless dude comes along, makes contact with residual crud, fails to maintain personal hygiene, virus contacts his mucous membranes in whatever orifice or via a small skin break. Wanders off in a drunken/drugged/psychotic stupor, makes contact with unknown others as he comes down with a fever. Maybe craps in the gutter, pukes all over sidewalks in a 5 block area, spits on some random passers by, and Bob's your uncle .

It's that easy for this to blow up in our faces.

Public health has to be thinking three steps ahead of the virus to head it off at the pass. I don't think they're up to it. The second they found him the first time and saw he was homeless they should have quietly invited him to stay in a hotel with 24/7 supervision for 21 days.

[cwydro]

15. So they had him?

And let him go?

Wow, this just gets curiouser and curiouser.

[kestrel91316]

16. Some idjit took his word that he'd show up somewhere every day to get looked at

and have his temp checked.

No one could have foreseen this.

[cwydro]

19. I hadn't even heard about this until I saw it here.

Surprised the press is not reporting it more.

I have a feeling there's a lot the CDC doesn't want us to know.

[uppityperson]

17. Do you really believe an ambulance crew would be scared and done a halfway job if they knew it was

ebola?

Seriously?

If the ambulance crew thought it might be ebola, they would not clean thoroughly.

Have you any clue how insulting that and putting cleaning in scare quotes is?

[kestrel91316]

22. People can and do do boneheaded things when they are scared and/or in denial.

I know members of my own profession personally who have done stupid, dangerous things in the case of rabies.

If CDC thought they had done a perfect job, they would not have called homeless dude any sort of contact.

[B2G]

24. Or thave taken the ambulance out of service

Considering the miniscule amount of virus required for infection, I can't imagine it would be too hard to miss some. Especially if he was vomiting in the interior.

[uppityperson]

25. They found him, please edit your OP. They are calling him a low risk, minimal risk and yes

the CDC is acting with an abundance of caution here with him.

You do not see how that is insulting? To say an ambulance crew would NOT clean an ambulance they thought might have had ebola in it, just take it back out infectious?

Can you seriously not understand the insult?

[B2G]

27. Not to speak for the OP, but

I don't think he was implying they didn't clean it.

Just that it would need to be cleaned differently if they knew the contaminant was ebola.

People don't normally clean up puke from flu sufferers in hazmat suits.

[kestrel91316]

32. Cleaning up Ebola-contaminated environments, as we saw

on Friday, involves a lot more than latex gloves and a spray bottle and paper towels. No way the ambulance guys, with NO DIAGNOSIS ON DUNCAN, did the hazmat deal with super deep cleaning right after they unloaded him.

If people feel insulted by my pointing this fact out, they are the problem and not me.

[uppityperson]

33. "if they suspected Ebola they might have been scared and done a halfway job." THIS is the insultq

That they would not do a good job if they thought it was ebola. Not that a deep cleaning was not done, but that it would be shirked out of fear, yet still kept in service.

[kestrel91316]

36. When people get something like this out of left field and it scares them,

they really aren't prepared. They screw up. Just look at how bad the PHYSICIANS AND NURSES screwed up at the hospital on the 25th. And THEY had gotten many many notifications and guidelines and alerts from CDC since the West African outbreak and supposedly had current, recent training in how to handle people exactly like Duncan.

[uppityperson]

42. People make mistakes, but claiming they did not clean ON PURPOSE because they were scared, yet kept

the ambulance in service, that is insulting.

[magical thyme]

31. thank you, uppityperson

Ebola Case #1 is on the job training, indeed.

Agreed 100% on the insult.

Was relieved to read the link and see how low risk he was. Even more relieved to see they've found him.

[AverageJoe90]

14. Let's hope they find him soon.

Because this really could complicate things otherwise.

[kestrel91316]

18. Duh. Frieden constantly reassures us that by tracing ALL contacts and

isolating anyone who needs isolating, this whole thing will go away. What he ISN'T saying much about is how horribly and rapidly the system can fall apart if a SINGLE PERSON escapes the safety net.

They have to be in a near panic on the ground over this. The guy might have disappeared because he's feeling like shit.

[uppityperson]

23. They found him.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/health/2014/10/05/ebola-patient-ambulance-dallas-search/16764107/
Jenkins repeatedly emphasized that since the man was not showing symptoms, then there is "zero chance of contracting the Ebola virus" from him.
A homeless panhandler who rode in an ambulance after a man with Ebola has been found by police.

Tweet: The man is being taken to Parkland Hospital.

[AverageJoe90]

74. Thanks for the heads-up. =) nt

[nolabear]

20. Boy, that's some fear mongering language right there.

Not questioning the severity of the problem at all, but GOODNESS! I just commented on how some of the local media outlets I follow down South prey on people's emotions as their primary focus rather than giving information.

I agree he should have been secured, if he could have been, on Day One. And I'm glad he's low risk, a point that gets a little lost in there.

[kestrel91316]

30. I can't anticipate the millions of ways my word choice might offend people.

Sorry. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

[nolabear]

57. As do we all.

[uppityperson]

21. HE HAS BEEN FOUND and is in low risk group and so far none in the high risk living with

MrDuncan while he was infectious for days group has come up sick.



http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/health/2014/10/05/ebola-patient-ambulance-dallas-search/16764107/

[kestrel91316]

26. Excellent. And now he needs to be kept confined and guarded like the 4

higher level contacts who also showed they would not comply with the guidelines.

I am aware none has come up sick. If you wait until somebody comes up sick before you isolate them, you have missed the boat, inexcusably, and have to start the whole process all over again.

The best chance of ending this is by getting it right the first time and not letting a single person escape the net for one moment. Stop it with a single case and everybody gets to sigh a huge sigh of relief and go home. Screw up and you have got a nightmare on your hands.

[uppityperson]

28. Please edit your OP title to reflect he has been found. Thank you.

[kestrel91316]

29. Oh thx i forgot to do that

[pinto]

34. "kept guarded", "escape the net" ? Discouraging and unfortunate framing for all of this.

Standard public health protocol is contact tracing. That's meant as a benefit to all parties in the picture. An individual who may have some risk of exposure, other possible contacts and so on down the line. It's meant to provide support, medical monitoring and treatment if necessary.

It's not a law enforcement round up. Setting it in that framework hampers the medical, public health goals. The guy's not a criminal. Health officials want to help him if needed and enlist his support for contact tracing.

(aside) Ambulances are routinely cleaned after each transport - this virus is fragile outside the body and disinfection is pretty straightforward. A homeless individual may not have been aware of the secondary aspects of his ambulance transport. He may not have regular access to news reports or such.

This media fueled tone is really disturbing, imo.

[kestrel91316]

37. Actually, violating medical isolation in a way that results in harm to others is very likely a CRIME

As it should be.

I don't believe in coddling wilfully negligent, dangerous behavior.

[pinto]

63. "willfully negligent" is likely the key operative in your point of view.

[kestrel91316]

65. Everyone told to isolate in this situation is told how, and why, and the consequences of failure to

comply. They know human lives depend on their behavior. So when they violate the guidelines, public health goes and gets a court order requiring their compliance - with legal consequences if they disobey the court order.

I support this approach 100%.

[pinto]

70. Was the homeless guy willfully negligent? Was there willful intent there? Was he told how and why?

I get some of your points, of course, yet the draconian stance you take to standard public health procedure is disturbing.

[kestrel91316]

72. Perhaps he's mentally incompetent, a drunk or druggie, in which case he is an even bigger threat.

Intent is irrelevant. If you cannot or will not, for whatever reason, go along with the plan, you are a threat to public safety and the law gets involved. Judge issues court order, you are made to behave, by holding you in a nice place with good food if necessary.

I am disturbed by people who don't take dangerous infectious diseases seriously. That attitude gets people killed.

[pinto]

73. In my experience, all public health personell take infectious diseases seriously.

Encourage you to put this all in perspective and current context. Take care.

[morningfog]

40. That poster also wants to deport infected people.

Even if they may be citizens. Unglued.

[kestrel91316]

41. Wrong. I did say that anybody who lies, committing a crime, about ebola exposure to

get into the US (Duncan did) and then comes down with it should be deported if they recover. They are a criminal and a menace to society.

I feel the same about any contacts who lie, saying they will obey isolation guidelines, and then proceed to go willy nilly about the community putting countless lives at risk and thereby needing armed police to force them to stay put. Send them back home.

Do not lie and say it is about VICTIMS being deported. It is about criminal and reckless behavior that endangers others needlessly.

[morningfog]

43. Are the family members citizens?

"I have no sympathy for people who promise to stay isolated and then immediately break that promise. Repeatedly. I think they should be deported at the end of 21 days."

[kestrel91316]

45. In that statement I am assuming no citizens are involved.

That may or may not be a correct assumption, but you know full well what I meant.

[morningfog]

46. Maybe you are too freaked out to rationally discuss

the issue or present with coherence.

[kestrel91316]

50. I'm not freaked out, rofl. I am just extremely angry at people like you who

give boatloads of bad advice while having not the slightest clue what you are talking about.

I'm still waiting for you to tell where you got that PhD in Epidemiology, or at least that medical degree, that makes you the expert.

I've got the education and professional expertise to be talking about this. You? Not so much, obviously.

[morningfog]

52. Oh you're an expert!?! Lol!

I got my degree at university of FU.

[uppityperson]

55. I have always wanted to visit Florida, seems like some really interesting places there.

[kestrel91316]

67. I have a BS in Microbiology. We studied virology and immunology until we were sick to

death of it, among many other subjects.

I also have a Doctorate in Veterinary Medicine, and in vet school we studied veterinary virology and epidemiology until we were sick to death of THAT. I was a teaching assistant in my senior year for the freshman veterinary microbiology class, so I have taught a bit of this stuff at the graduate level.

During my more than 30 years in practice I have developed a deep professional interest in veterinary public health and zoonoses (ebola is a zoonosis) and I also played a critical role in a rabies case which resulted in my being given a letter of commendation from Los Angeles County Department of Public Health. I was interviewed about that case on its 25th anniversary by the Health Department for use in education on public health at UCLA medical school.

Veterinarians are the unpaid, unsung arm of public health. We do constant infectious disease surveillance and reporting as part of our professional duties.

So as far as being an "expert" - yep, probably more than 99.9% of the American population, at least.

What are your credentials? I assume you have some. You do speak so authoritatively.

[kestrel91316]

47. I see what you are about. You believe that public health measures are unnecessary and that CDC

serves no purpose. Let people with ebola go wherever they want whenever they want. Only act when they turn up sick.

Tell me again where you got that PhD in epidemiology that makes you the expert?

Your approach is how West Africa got into the mess they are in. i'll take my chances with real experts and not internet Walter Mittys.

[uppityperson]

49. I think her point was deporting US citizens for breaking quarantine is wrong

I do not understand how you could come to the conclusions you state here unless you misunderstood what she meant about deporting usa citizens for breaking quarantine.

Your accusations here are quite over the top.

[morningfog]

53. The poster is simply blinded by fear, rage, and self-importance.

[morningfog]

51. Don't assume anything about me, thanks.

Because you got it wrong completely. CDC is doing critical work.

I was commenting on your callousness. You included the family as persons who should be deported, because they didn't adhere to the quarantine. You've yet to confirm that they are non-citizens.

None of the family has shown symptoms. They were no symptomatic when they left their home. No one was put at risk.

Guarding non-symptomatic persons with armed guards is not necessary or helpful.

If they tried to leave again would you support the use of force to stop them? Deadly force? How far have you gone?

[kestrel91316]

44. I have never said citizens should be deported. Exactly how does one do that??????

Citizenship can be revoked, though, and if any of this bad behavior qualifies, then so be it. If you want to be in the US, you need to NOT behave like complete jackasses when it comes to dangerous infectious diseases.

Let me guess - you think it's JUST FINE that Duncan lied to get on that plane. And you think it's just fine that people with high risk exposure to Ebola go off to public schools and stores in violation of isolation guidelines designed to keep large numbers of people from dying a horrible death.

You're awesome.

[cwydro]

35. Wonder why they're taking him to the hospital

if he is not showing symptoms...

[kestrel91316]

38. Temporary secure holding in case he develops a fever before they set him up in a nice comfy hotel

room with an armed guard (or something equivalent). Taking him to jail would just make contact tracing even more problematic if he got a sudden fever.

[Warpy]

54. They dropped the ball with the first patient

and looked like a bunch of Keystone Kops were running the system (and they were).

Not dropping the ball with a possible second contact is supposed to make us all feel safer, which we don't since they dropped the ball so spectacularly with Mr. Duncan.

[kestrel91316]

56. Well at least now with all these contacts, if any of them wind up with so much as a sniffle,

CDC AND local PH will be all over them like white on rice.

It really needs to stop with the first generation of contacts. Period.

[cwydro]

66. The amount of money that any of us

would be charged for any hospital stay...much less 21 days...

They need to set up FEMA trailers or something for these contingencies.

As you said earlier, the authorities do not seem to be up to this challenge.

[In_The_Wind]

61. Thanks for the correct updated information.

[pnwmom]

39. How, how, how could they have allowed him to slip back into the homeless population?

Why is every step they seem to take always so wrong?

[kestrel91316]

48. I assume he said he would check in every day. He probably really intended to. But

there is probably a very good reason he wound up on the street. Drugs, alcohol, untreated mental illness. They tend to get in the way of following through with promises.

Now people are gonna hate on me for saying THAT.

[morningfog]

58. They found him and his isn't symptomatic, no harm.

[pnwmom]

59. They were lucky. But they might have lost him, and he could have gotten sick among other homeless

people.

This was an another unacceptable error for them to make.

[kestrel91316]

60. This was a horrifying slip-up. They probably just took him at his word that he'd stay in touch.

Probably a bad move where any homeless person is concerned.

Gah. Now people gonna hate on me for saying THAT, too.

[uppityperson]

62. I will. People with a home didn't follow orders, homeless guy didn't either.

I have been homeless but only for a couple months. I did what I promised to do.

Just because you are homeless does not mean you cheat, lie, deceive.

[kestrel91316]

64. Homeless men are highly likely to have drug, alcohol, and/or mental health issues, all of which

interfere with ability to comply with instructions. THAT'S the problem. Not the lack of roof per se.

No idea what the 4 others' excuse was. Second guessing the authorities, denial, superstition, sheer stupidity?

[uppityperson]

68. Could have been being advised to stay home rather than ordered to, combined with lack of food

in the house.

I am glad they got food and moved to a safer place to live in quarantine.

[kestrel91316]

69. The no food and no plans for school issues was a failure on local PH's part.

[kestrel91316]

71. They were "advised" to start. When they disregarded the advice, that's when PH went and

got the court order to stay put and brought in the armed guard to enforce it.

That's how they do this. They start out with doing things voluntarily with contacts. Only if they fail to cooperate does the law and force get involved.