I keep saying the topic of white privilege being equated to white guilt ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

as if the former is at all related to the later. More troubling is the concurrent argument, "I can't/refuse to feel guilt for that which I had no hand in creating."

Here's a Thought Exercise:

Imagine you joined a group. Upon joining you are introduced to the members. Being the smart and quick study that you are, you commit the names to memory and as the respectful person that you are, one use the member's name, whenever you address them.

During the gathering, one of the member who was introduced to you as "Piggy" (she/he is slightly over-weight), makes a particularly insightful and cogent point, which you acknowledge, by saying, "'Piggy' here has a good point." Then, he/she makes another, then another, point that you find to be spot on ... clearly, "Piggy" is one of the brighter, more insightful people in the room.

After the event, while having coffee you strike up a conversation with "Piggy" ... and find that he/she really enjoys the intellectual stimulation that the group offers; but he/she confides that she/he is deeply hurt by people calling her/him "Piggy", and that he/she prefers her/his given name, "Bobby/Bobbie."

In subsequent meetings, people continue referring to her/him as "Piggy" ... but you, with the knowledge that that name is offensive to him/her, refrain and refer to "Piggy" as Bobbie/Bobby.

Now ... you have several choices: you can raise the issue, expressing to the larger group that she/he is offended by the name; you can express to the larger group that she/he is offended by the name, AND express that because you are aware that the name is offensive to him/her, you also find it offensive and appeal to the group to recognize the offensiveness of the conduct; or, you can remain silent and allow the practice to continue ... after all, you had/have nothing to do with Bobby/Bobbie being over weight, nor did you have anything to do with the group's using that name.

Which course do take? And, do any of these paths express guilt?

[bravenak]

1. Perfect.nt

[BKH70041]

2. I choose to encourage Bobby/Bobbie to tell everyone else what she told me.

[1StrongBlackMan]

3. And that's it? ...

You choose not to get involved in "someone else's fight"?

[BKH70041]

5. Most definitely.

Do I know that Bobby/Bobbie wants me to do what you suggested? I would talk to her first before assuming she does or doesn't want anything from me.

[1StrongBlackMan]

7. Okay. eom.

[aikoaiko]

4. This OP has good tone.

I keed. I keed.

More seriously. I think your example is good, but the problem is that white privilege is pervasive and may not even require an action on the part of someone who benefits from it and is held accountable. I know -- analogies always break down and that's why they are analogies. But one of the other differences is that protagonist in your story should be confronted with people calling him/her a "piggy-caller" reagrdless of whether he/she stops or not.

Sometimes I think I get what the OP is about. Those without white privilege just need change to happen and its irrelevant whether someone feels guilt or not. Or maybe i don't get it.

To answer your questions: I would tell the group that other should stop calling bobby/bobbie piggy and yes I would feel guilt about my actions because I hurt someone's feelings.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. Yes ...

you get it.

but,

and yes I would feel guilt about my actions because I hurt someone's feelings.

Embarrassed, maybe ... Angry with oneself for no recognizing the power of words, even when they are widely accepted in the lexicon ... Okay, but (and assuming, once you gained knowledge, you stopped) you should not feel guilty about doing something that you were unaware was offensive.

ETA:

This OP has good tone.

I try ... I try!

[Arkansas Granny]

8. I would continue to call the member "Bobby/Bobbie" in private and in meetings.

I would also tell other members privately of the conversation and encourage them to also start using the name requested. If "Bobby/Bobbie" felt comfortable with raising the subject with the group, he/she probably would have already done so.

To me, the path that would express guilt would be to allow the practice to continue without doing anything about it. You can't always influence the behavior of others, but if you know something is hurtful, you should do what you can to correct the situation.

[BKH70041]

11. What if Bobby/Bobbie told you what they did in confidence?

I would certainly ask Bobby/Bobbie if she's talked about this with others and/or ask her further questions before I would go around relating a private conversation I had with her.

Now when I started referring to her as Bobby/Bobbie in public, surely there would be those who would notice and might ask me why. I agree that she and I need to talk about how she would like me to address that question should it arise.

But just of my own initiative to start talking to others about it without talking to Bobby/Bobbie about it first? No way.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. You're right. Should check with "Bobby/Bobbie" first.

[ZombieHorde]

9. I'm too nihilistic for white guilt, but I recognize white privilege.

One part of white privilege is a decreased importance on identity. No one has mistreated me for being white, so there was no reason for me to develop an emotional attachment to my skin color. In my limited observations, people identify by their struggles. Gay is often a stronger identity than straight, favorite religion is a stronger identity than favorite food, etc. In my opinion, white guilt requires white identity, and I'm not sure why so many white people identity with that aspect of themselves. Seems pointless to me, but to each their own.

I love how your OP cuts through the bullshit and aims straight at the heart of the desired behavior. The guilt is most likely pointless, but the behavior is most likely beneficial.

[Orrex]

10. Here's what I would do

From way back on DU2.

One's mileage may vary, of course.

[bigbrother05]

12. It can relate to white privilege/guilt, but a thoughtful person would avoid using "Piggy" at all

Unless this club member personally introduced themselves with that name, it should occur to the new member that this is not likely to be an endearing nickname.

This is precisely the issue with white privilege. We may not seek or even recognize an advantage, but it exists if others are disadvantaged by their lack of the privileged characteristic. There are many advantages that are granted either unconsciously or openly, i.e. sex/beauty/height/weight/age that we should be able to recognize and address.

[malthaussen]

13. As to the example...

I always ask someone I've just met what they prefer to be called. That has nothing to do with guilt, simply courtesy. Now, if the individual in question confided to me that the name he was being called by others was offensive to him, then I would first want to know whether raising the issue in the larger group would be too embarassing for him, or if he didn't want a big deal made of it. I might still go ahead and ask "why are you calling this person Piggy," and be disinclined to accept brush-off answers like "he doesn't mind."

Happens I've encountered this exact example a couple of times in the past, so what I would do in the situtation is not hypothetical. But mind you, I don't worry a whole helluva lot about group acceptance, either.

I think that, in the given case, I would not find the Piggy-calling "offensive" until I was aware that the individual found it so, and then the group persisted in doing so after being informed that this was the case. This is because I am willing to grant ignorance as a way of saving the offender's face. But once the issue has been aired, I would find persistance in such conduct by the group to be offensive. Assuming it was a group I belonged to voluntarily, I would likely sever the connection.

As to the larger issue of white privilege/guilt, I never have seen what purpose guilt served, except as a tool used by the ruling class to keep the rest of us in line. If it be true that guilt leads to more-acceptable conduct, it is a mystery beyond my ken.

-- Mal

[Half-Century Man]

14. I am not guilty of those things in the past I did not commit.

I am not guilty of advantages or impediments caused by the circumstances of my birth.
I am only accountable for the deeds I have committed and will commit, including deeds of omission. Ignorance is merely an extenuating circumstance in deeds I may have committed, not an absolution of guilt.

In order to avoid guilt; any privileges I enjoy I should personally extent to others, and advocate other privileged individuals to extend as well.
In order to avoid guilt; I should fight to remove impediments, mine and the impediments of others.
In order to avoid guilt; I should learn so I will lessen my ignorance.
The weakest point in this is Should. Should, requires a tremendous amount of strength sometimes. May we all learn to have it.



My differences from the common perception of society are not readily visible. They are religious, political, and legal. And yet the few times I felt the sting of discrimination, it has been mortifying. I cannot begin to conceive the how it must feel to face discrimination constantly, nor would I want to. My mere whiff of it lets me know what a shit sandwich it really is. I will not subject anyone else to it. I desire the strength to prevent others from doing it to someone else.

[bettyellen]

15. I'd correct the next person who calls her Piggy, and if they needed a reason I would tell them I

am uncomfortable with it, and explain how rude it is. I'd try to do it in a group setting to get it aired out and done.
It offends me, I don't need to wait for Bobbie to say something about it to say so myself. I know it is hard when you feel picked on and want to fit in.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. Thank you for your response ...

don't need to wait for Bobbie to say something about it to say so myself. I know it is hard when you feel picked on and want to fit in.

I wonder if anyone has pondered why a Black person would remain silent, or worse, laugh at a "Ni@@er joke", when they are one of, or the only, Black people in the room?

[bettyellen]

20. people make excuses for looking the other way all the time. but one person can change the culture.

It happens all the time in a negative way, where one bully or bigot decides they are the alpha and sets the tone for the group.
We need to speak up and let people know we are not on board with this crap. That is how it ends, with each of us, refusing to go along.
That is why the realization of privilege is important.

[badtoworse]

16. The first choice is the best.

If the group were organized (with leadership, bylaws, etc.), then the I'd likely make a formal complaint. If it were merely a social gathering group without structure, I'd bring it up when Bobby/Bobbie was not present and make the point that Piggy is hurtful to the person affected. I don't think stating my personal offense is as relevant as pointing out that continuing to use the name Piggy once it's known to be offensive to Bobby/Bobbie is wrong in its own right.

There is a fourth option that you did not mention - resign from the group. That is what I would do if the problem continued after I spoke up about it. In that situation, it's reasonable to conclude that people in the group had made an affirmative decision to continue with the offensive practice and I would not want to be associated with such people. I'd strongly suggest to Bobby/Bobbie that he/she do the same since the group obviously cared nothing about her feelings.

[logosoco]

19. I would certainly stop calling Piggy Piggy and I would make a stink about it to the group,

probably without mentioning what he/she said to me about it. Not sure about that, I would need more cues from him/her. I guess I would hope the group would see me referring to this person but the "new" name and see that she/he is responding to it.

I wouldn't feel guilty about it, because I had been told how she/he feels, straight from her. And I sure can understand how he/she feels.

This kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, people said my name with an -ie on the end. When I got older, I wanted to be referred to without it. Everyone in the family took to it, some aunts I had to remind a few times, but they got it.

[KT2000]

21. Leave Bobby/Bobbie out of it

Just express to the group, the inappropriate use of the term Piggy when referring to anyone and suggest its usage be stopped. If that didn't work, I would quit the group because they would be a bunch of jerks, to put it mildly.

It is a form of ignorance and immaturity to think that the world starts and ends with us. We are all born into a world that history has created. Our history has granted white privilege to some, but it is an ill-gotten gain. The question then becomes what to do about it. How best to construct a history that is less burdened for future generations? It is what adults should do.